Medical & Other Operational Standards for Driving CAP Vans?

[RADIOMAN015]

How safe our our CAP van operators?

Over the course of my membership I've observed and also have been told by those directly involved the following examples:

An insulin dependent diabetic allowed to drive a CAP 15(12) pax van at a travel distance greater than 1 hour from the unit.  No second driver was in the vehicle with the individual although there was another senior member present familiar with diabetic medical treatment.

A CAP driver drove a van load of cadets to an overnight outdoor camping activity and stayed overnight.   The driving distance was about 1 hour from the squadron headquarters.  The member stated that on the way back from the activity he/she debated about stopping for coffee and decided not too and found that he/she got very tired while driving.  There was no other senior member in the van with him/her.  HOWEVER, there was another senior member, non CAP licensed driver (who also stated that he/she was very tired) following the van.

So to the group here, do we in CAP need to have a medical standard (similar to the Commercial Driver's License OR at least the federal driver requirements for commercial vehicles (10K or over) used in interstate commerce)?

What (or should)  operating regulation should be imposed regarding having more than one qualified CAP driver in a van that is driven X amount of travel time from the unit headquarters, and what is a reasonable "X" for this policy?

I am not a CAP qualified driver and have no intentions of becoming one unless CAP changes it's personal liability policy on accidents .
RM       

[Eclipse]

no.

[JC004]

What were the accidents that occurred in these examples?

[Pylon]

"Hi everyone, solution here.  Has anybody seen a problem?  No?  Well I'm just going to try to stick around anyways..."

[ZigZag911]

Do we need more rules and regs?  No.

Do CAP senior members in some instances need to exercise common sense?

Absolutely!

If you're too tired to drive, you don't belong behind the wheel of any vehicle, let alone a CAP van full of cadets!

[NIN]

This falls into that nebulous category of "legislating common sense," but it also speaks to the concept that "common sense ain't all that common."

Do people drive CAP vehicles in ways that they shouldn't? You betcha.

BITD (which, IIRC, was a Wednesday), a unit near me used to do these neat "mega trips" (they called them) to places like Washington DC, Kennedy Space Center, and Colorado Springs.  From Michigan.

Now, with an appropriate number of drivers for relief purposes, this is not so big of a deal.  I went on their DC trip, and served as one of the relief drivers from somewhere in PA all the way to Fort Belvior.   Nobody got over tired, and things were done in a fairly safe manner. Detroit to DC was about a 9-10 hr drive.

The following year, that same unit drove to Orlando/Kennedy Space Center on a short (4-ish day) trip.  Thats was, IIRC, about a 20-21 hr trip one way.  There were a slightly smaller number of drivers, and basically when they hit Cocoa Beach, the drivers hit the sack, everybody else went touring, and when it was time to head back, the drivers were well rested.  Same driver, 21 hrs at a stretch?  Probably not as good an idea.

The next year, buoyed by the success of the prior trip, they did USAFA/NORAD.  About the same driving time (21-ish hours). I've made that trip myself, and its *terrible* across the Plains (sorry, you guys from NCR) from a sheer boredom perspective.  Again, I believe they did something similar where they checked into billeting and the drivers sacked out in preparation for the return trip.

As I recall, just a few years later, there was an incident with a CAP van and the CAP balloon in a trailer, traveling between Illinois and Arizona.  The driver either fell asleep or had a moment of inattention, and the van and trailer flipped, ejecting another senior member who was sleeping across a seat in the back (and thus, not belted in).  I don't recall the full circumstances (I do seem to recall that the accident occurred in Illinois (EDIT: Missouri. On 2nd reading, I realized I thought Missouri and typed Illinois) and they were enroute from AZ, so it would have been near the end of the journey), so I'm not sure if this one is based on "crew rest" or not.

My point, however, is that the instant we start to throw regs atop this, we lose a high degree of flexibility.  Say you're taking a drill team to NCC, and its a 10 hr drive in two vans.  Some spanky new van reg says "Drive no further than 8 hrs per day." Because of funding and schedules and such, you can't take an extra SM along in each van, you only have the two team escorts.  Do you cancel? Do you plan the trip to take an extra day on each end to comply with the regs? Which way does it go? What about "crew rest" requirements?  Will they apply to POVs as well as COVs?   

I do take your point WRT a diabetic driving, but then, if the state says that a diabetic can drive, then where is the problem?  Hell, the FAA says diabetics can _FLY_, so why not drive?

I think a bigger hazard in those vans is rambunctious cadets.  Thats just me, though.

[RADIOMAN015]

This falls into that nebulous category of "legislating common sense," but it also speaks to the concept that "common sense ain't all that common."


My point, however, is that the instant we start to throw regs atop this, we lose a high degree of flexibility.  Say you're taking a drill team to NCC, and its a 10 hr drive in two vans.  Some spanky new van reg says "Drive no further than 8 hrs per day." Because of funding and schedules and such, you can't take an extra SM along in each van, you only have the two team escorts.  Do you cancel? Do you plan the trip to take an extra day on each end to comply with the regs? Which way does it go? What about "crew rest" requirements?  Will they apply to POVs as well as COVs?   

I do take your point WRT a diabetic driving, but then, if the state says that a diabetic can drive, then where is the problem?  Hell, the FAA says diabetics can _FLY_, so why not drive?

Well even the fed is looking more carefully at commercial driver's (CDL's) driving/duty time and how it affects accidents.  Right now one can drive 11 hours after having 10 hours consecutive time off.  Cannot exceed a 14 hour "duty day" (which would include 11 hours of driving, as I understand it).

I think that members' medical conditions, should be evaluated closer to the federal commercial drivers standard versus the private standard.

I think "everyone" at one time or another has driven while they were tired.  Again the situation I think is one of the total exposed time one is driving tired.  In my example the member driving tired was about 45 minutes from squadron HQ.  Now if this was 3 or 4 hours from HQ, there wasn't much of an option as far as a 2nd driver being available.  Additionally if the 2nd driver is awake and duty time is at 14 hours, are we really getting a "safer" driver    Privately, on my way back to the great lakes region from the northeast region I drove about 15 hours and when we got home I still felt like I was driving that entire night.

Isn't safety suppose to look at systematic issues and prevent accidents, rather than be in a reactive mode after a terrible accident happens
RM     

[EMT-83]

The Hours of Service regulations for CDL drivers are a whole lot more complicated than stated above, and don't really apply to a one or two day trip in a CAP van.

As far as "terrible" accidents go, statics show that improper weight distribution and improper tire inflation account for most van accidents. I believe that NHQ has addressed those issues.

[Spaceman3750]

no.

Second.

I don't need someone poking at my soft squishy underbelly in the name of CAP. Neither situation you just described would be mitigated by medical standards. A diabetic driving isn't unsafe in any way, and making my doctor fill out a form next time I go see him isn't going to prevent me from being tired behind the wheel.

Radioman, you're just stirring the pot.

[N Harmon]

We could require drivers take a break at least every 5 hours of driving. But I'm not entirely sure it is necessary.

[SarDragon]

We could require drivers take a break at least every 5 hours of driving. But I'm not entirely sure it is necessary.

We can require anything we want, but enforcement remains a problem. This is a long standing issue.