I think all the "hazing" C.A.P. is kind of silly and not allowing us to discipline the cadets what do you think?
I think that you should use the search function as this topic has been well beaten. I also think that if you need to do something that is considered hazing in CAP to discipline a cadet, you're not a very good leader and need to reevaluate yourself.
Yep.
There is a lot of difference between hazing and discipline...
Hazing is unnecessary, unprofessional, and is the trademark of a horrible leader. You do not need to have your people do pushups or any thing of the sort.
Leadership is the process of influencing others to achieve a common objective goal or mission.
Beating or smoking your joes is a really good way to go in the opposit direction. Go ahead and keep that mentality and see how far it gets you, not just in CAP, but in the real world. In the Army it's likely to land a grenade in your fox hole, not inspire great performance.
If the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
As a leader, you need to develop a robust toolbox and it is a never-ending, on-going process.
Hazing, even as strictly defined by CAP, has no place in that toolbox.
You guys get on the internet much? ???
Because you seem to have fallen for a classic TROLL tactic. :o
Make an outrageous post and sit back and watch the fireworks... ::)
If by discipline you mean your only leadership style is to go FMJ on someone, then .. leadership by terror ... isn't leadership.
It's pathetic.
Sure, there's a time and place for being upset, and speaking your mind, but it's not going to solve a thing when dealing with the issues at hand. So what good is it? Troll food. That's it.
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock. ;)
http://qkme.me/3p341o (http://qkme.me/3p341o)
Good example of why we have an anti-hazing policy: http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19 (http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19)
Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 02, 2012, 11:44:45 PM
Good example of why we have an anti-having policy: http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19 (http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19)
Okay, I'll bite. What's "anti-having"? ???
Quote from: PHall on May 03, 2012, 12:01:47 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 02, 2012, 11:44:45 PM
Good example of why we have an anti-having policy: http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19 (http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19)
Okay, I'll bite. What's "anti-having"? ???
Anti-hazing policy. Phone autocorrect and all that.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 03, 2012, 01:39:42 AM
Quote from: PHall on May 03, 2012, 12:01:47 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 02, 2012, 11:44:45 PM
Good example of why we have an anti-having policy: http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19 (http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19)
Okay, I'll bite. What's "anti-having"? ???
Anti-hazing policy. Phone autocorrect and all that.
You know, REAL MEN don't use autocorrect. >:D
i said "hazing" " " i dont mean famu hazing im talking about CAP hazing
Quote from: mrcadet on May 03, 2012, 01:43:20 PM
i said "hazing" " " i dont mean famu hazing im talking about CAP hazing
There isn't a single difference. Hazing is hazing.
Hazing is hazing, if it is not welcome... And hazing is not acceptable in a professional environment.
If you want to haze others, by tradition, YOU have to be hazed. Come to my squadron, I would be glad to administer it. You have to sign a hold harmless before attending and proof of medical insurance with your card on you at all times.
Is that ticking I hear in the background?
Quote from: Littleguy on May 08, 2012, 03:35:26 AM
If you want to haze others, by tradition, YOU have to be hazed. Come to my squadron, I would be glad to administer it. You have to sign a hold harmless before attending and proof of medical insurance with your card on you at all times.
Doesn't work. Consent to be hazed still doesn't permit it. There are grey areas, but this isn't one of them.
Quote from: Littleguy on May 08, 2012, 03:35:26 AM
If you want to haze others, by tradition, YOU have to be hazed. Come to my squadron, I would be glad to administer it. You have to sign a hold harmless before attending and proof of medical insurance with your card on you at all times.
A full-on violation of both regulations and common sense. It is doubtful your unit is actually doing something like that, because if they
are, whoever came up with that bright idea has no idea what they are talking about.
Do you even know what a "hold harmless" agreement is? It's a contract. There's no Wing CC worth his birds that would sign, or permit to be signed,
a "OK to haze me" contract.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 02, 2012, 11:44:45 PM
Good example of why we have an anti-hazing policy: http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19 (http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=E559B5AB9B19E941EEEBF9E9E9987387.w6?a=945887&f=19)
Thanks for the link! It helped! :clap:
Quote from: Eclipse on May 08, 2012, 01:16:11 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on May 08, 2012, 03:35:26 AM
If you want to haze others, by tradition, YOU have to be hazed. Come to my squadron, I would be glad to administer it. You have to sign a hold harmless before attending and proof of medical insurance with your card on you at all times.
A full-on violation of both regulations and common sense. It is doubtful your unit is actually doing something like that, because if they
are, whoever came up with that bright idea has no idea what they are talking about.
Do you even know what a "hold harmless" agreement is? It's a contract. There's no Wing CC worth his birds that would sign, or permit to be signed,
a "OK to haze me" contract.
It was a joke. Have some faith in me! I'm against hazing all the way, and people who want to haze my fellow cadets are people I do not like. I thought you'd get that it was a sarcastic joke by the fact I brought up medical insurance and a hold harmless.
Unfortunately there are far too many members and even leaders who would believe your idea would be OK.
Quote from: Littleguy on May 08, 2012, 09:00:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 08, 2012, 01:16:11 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on May 08, 2012, 03:35:26 AM
If you want to haze others, by tradition, YOU have to be hazed. Come to my squadron, I would be glad to administer it. You have to sign a hold harmless before attending and proof of medical insurance with your card on you at all times.
A full-on violation of both regulations and common sense. It is doubtful your unit is actually doing something like that, because if they
are, whoever came up with that bright idea has no idea what they are talking about.
Do you even know what a "hold harmless" agreement is? It's a contract. There's no Wing CC worth his birds that would sign, or permit to be signed,
a "OK to haze me" contract.
It was a joke. Have some faith in me! I'm against hazing all the way, and people who want to haze my fellow cadets are people I do not like. I thought you'd get that it was a sarcastic joke by the fact I brought up medical insurance and a hold harmless.
Even I know it was a joke. ;D
I see we're still feeding the troll. ;D
Legitimate question here: Would assigning Cadets to the "clean up crew" responsible for emptying trash cans at the end of the meeting be considered hazing? The Cadets are assigned based on the uniform inspection results at each meeting.
No, your example of the cleanup crew would not be hazing. However, if you were to detail a cadet or two to get trash from the dumpster and carry it into the building and then back out again, that could be hazing. Also, if you were to put a cadet into the dumster because of a dirty or unkept uniform that could be considered hazing.
If everyone's uniform passed inspection and you picked two cadets for cleanup because last week they failed unifrom inspection, you are getting pretty close to the hazing line.
As leaders we have or good subordinates, the superstars that hit all the right buttons and erything they do shines. We also have our "GOOD" subordinates that often the only positive thing we can say about them is they are a perfect bad example. We must always be on guard that we are nor overy generous with rewards for the good nor overly critical of the "GOOD".
Cleanup duty for us is a specific flight each time, one puts tables/chairs away, another sweeps, mops, or scrubs anything. It's not tied to anything result wise at all other than rotation. You did it last week, now you do this, or you get a nothing week because we have 3 flights plus staff.
Plus, everyone is usually pretty eager to help/do something.
There are other ways to do it besides linking a duty to be done to the outcome of something else. Inspection should be educational, not a beat down, or even close to it. "You failed this, you get to dump the trash". That you're looking for someone to dump trash, and someone will need to be failed so that the trash gets dumped.. is almost the way I see it.
Vs. at the beginning of the meeting, the 1st Sgt. says "Charlie flight is responsible for the trash tonight", and it gets done. Period. Some of them will even race each other to do it. Enthusiasm mostly gets a better job done.
Fail the uniform inspection, have them study 39-1 (which might be considered hazing ... ;-)
Set a goal for zero failures, and reward 'em. Disconnect the negative from it and you'll usually accomplish both goals without heartburn or hassle over any of it.
Save that for the DI's and bootcamp, where if the decide to take that route, they'll sail right past it because they learned it all here.
Quote from: Patterson on May 13, 2012, 01:00:56 PM
Legitimate question here: Would assigning Cadets to the "clean up crew" responsible for emptying trash cans at the end of the meeting be considered hazing? The Cadets are assigned based on the uniform inspection results at each meeting.
From CAPR 52-10: Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).