Col Mary Feik Scholarship only for females?

[Thonawit]

2. Civil Air Patrol Policy of Nondiscrimination. It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no member
shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination in
any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or
disability (formerly handicap).

We are looking at age based discrimination.

[stitchmom]

BTW, I certainly hope you sent Ned a PM warning him about equating the Tuskegee Airmen Foundation and KKK.  No one, repeat NO ONE, ever made any such ridiculous claim that the KKK would or should offer a scholarhip to CAP.  His straw man argument invoking the KKK is not only deliberately misleading, but also defaming to infer that anyone would claim such.  It is also a VERY hateful and disturbing reference that for some of us should NEVER be brought up, especially so flippantly.  My personal background is such that my people have been unfairly, violently, and frequently fatally attacked by the KKK throughout our history.  To willfully bring that out as a reference is personally disrespectful to me, my family, and my every single person of my background.  That, sir, is NOT "stick(ing) to the merits of the discussion," as you so sagely demand.  It is also something that is certainly not appropriate of "an adult or senior officer in this organization," and I truly hope he has also been duly chastened...  An apology from Ned is also clearly deserved.

I assume this is my last CAP Talk post, because you've made clear you won't tolerate dissent and certainly can't tolerate when your hypocrisy has been laid bare.  It's been, uh, grand... 

Adios!

Don't get bent out of shape on that one, he was trying to say it's their decision to evaluate the scholarship. I don't agree with it but he wasn't throwing in extra disrespect.

[Alaric]

2. Civil Air Patrol Policy of Nondiscrimination. It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no member
shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination in
any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or
disability (formerly handicap).

We are looking at age based discrimination.

Shall we inject some logic at this point.  Using most literal interpretation of the criteria above the following could also be considered discriminatory:

Any event taking place on the Sabbath of a faith that forbids working on the Sabbath (Sorry, all SAREXs, Encampments, Color Guard competitions, etc)  Not being a religious expert by any means, I can't name all of them but observant Jews cannot "work" (which has a special definition and includes things like turning on lights, writing, and carrying) from sundown on Friday to one hour after sundown on Saturday.  Since a lion share of our organizations events happen on a Saturday (or are multiday events that include Saturdays) are we as an organization Anti-Semetic, I think not.  Since at things like NCSAs and Encampments we feed people are we going to start making sure the food is Kosher?  Halal? Vegan? Vegetarian?  Do the facilities we use have the wherewithal to do so?  Or should we just abandon these activities as not everyone can participate?

At some point does the potential member not have the responsibility to look at an organization and say, this is not something I can participate in as my religion, my medical issues, my whatever would not allow me to fully participate.

Getting to Thonawit's point.  We limit participation by age everyday (at encampments, NCSAs, being a member of aircrew).  Where is the hue and cry?  At some point people have to use a little logic, or we as an organization need to say since we want to offend no one, everyone is allowed to participate in everything regardless of ability to be effective (See Police Academy).  I look forward to the use of 12 year old scanners

[CAPDCCMOM]

Actually Alaric, DOD does require that Kosher and Halal meals be provided. We are also required to ensure that any religious denomination be allowed for Spiritual aid or comfort. I.E., if you have a Cadet that requests to see a Rabbi during Encampment, the Encampment Chaplain must use every effort to get a Rabbi. This is called Respect. Our Unit just completed our Annual Training on Anti-Discrimination policy, we can not be bias based on race, religion, color, creed, gender, National Origin, Sexual Orientation, age, disability or any other protected group. We must make every reasonable accommodation to be inclusive and transparent.

[Alaric]

Actually Alaric, DOD does require that Kosher and Halal meals be provided. We are also required to ensure that any religious denomination be allowed for Spiritual aid or comfort. I.E., if you have a Cadet that requests to see a Rabbi during Encampment, the Encampment Chaplain must use every effort to get a Rabbi. This is called Respect. Our Unit just completed our Annual Training on Anti-Discrimination policy, we can not be bias based on race, religion, color, creed, gender, National Origin, Sexual Orientation, age, disability or any other protected group. We must make every reasonable accommodation to be inclusive and transparent.

DoD requires that Kosher and Halal be provide to service people; I know for a fact that is not a requirement at for instance the NCSA I attend, I bring my own food.  It is not required at encampments, and if it is we are failing since the kitchens are not kosher (I have no idea if the utensils for Halal food are required to be kept in a certain way).  I do not disagree that the Encampment Chaplain would attempt to get a Rabbi, but the issue is that running events on Saturdays immediately excludes observant Jews, which in my mind is not discrimination, but one could interpret it as such

[Garibaldi]

Actually Alaric, DOD does require that Kosher and Halal meals be provided. We are also required to ensure that any religious denomination be allowed for Spiritual aid or comfort. I.E., if you have a Cadet that requests to see a Rabbi during Encampment, the Encampment Chaplain must use every effort to get a Rabbi. This is called Respect. Our Unit just completed our Annual Training on Anti-Discrimination policy, we can not be bias based on race, religion, color, creed, gender, National Origin, Sexual Orientation, age, disability or any other protected group. We must make every reasonable accommodation to be inclusive and transparent.

DoD requires that Kosher and Halal be provide to service people; I know for a fact that is not a requirement at for instance the NCSA I attend, I bring my own food.  It is not required at encampments, and if it is we are failing since the kitchens are not kosher (I have no idea if the utensils for Halal food are required to be kept in a certain way).  I do not disagree that the Encampment Chaplain would attempt to get a Rabbi, but the issue is that running events on Saturdays immediately excludes observant Jews, which in my mind is not discrimination, but one could interpret it as such

IF CAP held activities SPECIFICALLY in order to exclude members of different faiths, I'd give that some credence. Historically, members work Monday-Friday 8-5 (I'm not one of them, my work week starts on Thursday and ends Monday), so weekends are about the only practical time to have SAREXs and so on. This is not done to exclude, but to make it as easy for the 50,000+ members to participate outside of meetings.

Food-wise, I would assume that any encampment held on a DoD installation would already have a mechanism in place for feeding people with not only dietary restrictions (peanut allergies, etc), but religious exemptions. For someone needing/wanting a Rabbi, I'm fairly certain one can be summoned with little difficulty on a DoD installation, or perhaps from a synagogue nearby. The base chaplain will have that information.

Reasonable accommodation is just that: reasonable. If the member understands that hurdles were jumped, fire rings were jumped through, and mountains were moved to accommodate them and it didn't work out logistically, it sure would go over better than "Nah, we can't because reasons."

[Alaric]

Actually Alaric, DOD does require that Kosher and Halal meals be provided. We are also required to ensure that any religious denomination be allowed for Spiritual aid or comfort. I.E., if you have a Cadet that requests to see a Rabbi during Encampment, the Encampment Chaplain must use every effort to get a Rabbi. This is called Respect. Our Unit just completed our Annual Training on Anti-Discrimination policy, we can not be bias based on race, religion, color, creed, gender, National Origin, Sexual Orientation, age, disability or any other protected group. We must make every reasonable accommodation to be inclusive and transparent.

DoD requires that Kosher and Halal be provide to service people; I know for a fact that is not a requirement at for instance the NCSA I attend, I bring my own food.  It is not required at encampments, and if it is we are failing since the kitchens are not kosher (I have no idea if the utensils for Halal food are required to be kept in a certain way).  I do not disagree that the Encampment Chaplain would attempt to get a Rabbi, but the issue is that running events on Saturdays immediately excludes observant Jews, which in my mind is not discrimination, but one could interpret it as such

IF CAP held activities SPECIFICALLY in order to exclude members of different faiths, I'd give that some credence. Historically, members work Monday-Friday 8-5 (I'm not one of them, my work week starts on Thursday and ends Monday), so weekends are about the only practical time to have SAREXs and so on. This is not done to exclude, but to make it as easy for the 50,000+ members to participate outside of meetings.

Food-wise, I would assume that any encampment held on a DoD installation would already have a mechanism in place for feeding people with not only dietary restrictions (peanut allergies, etc), but religious exemptions. For someone needing/wanting a Rabbi, I'm fairly certain one can be summoned with little difficulty on a DoD installation, or perhaps from a synagogue nearby. The base chaplain will have that information.

Reasonable accommodation is just that: reasonable. If the member understands that hurdles were jumped, fire rings were jumped through, and mountains were moved to accommodate them and it didn't work out logistically, it sure would go over better than "Nah, we can't because reasons."

I didn't make my point well obviously.  I don't think any of it is discrimination, I was pointing out that the same logic that is being used in this argument about the scholarship could be used to argue for Sunday SAREX's; 12 year old scanners, etc.  And as an FYI I was at NER RSC a few years ago there is no Rabbi assigned there and very few synagogues in that area (Ft Dix).  Nor was Kosher food an option in the dining hall, I brought my own.

[Garibaldi]

Actually Alaric, DOD does require that Kosher and Halal meals be provided. We are also required to ensure that any religious denomination be allowed for Spiritual aid or comfort. I.E., if you have a Cadet that requests to see a Rabbi during Encampment, the Encampment Chaplain must use every effort to get a Rabbi. This is called Respect. Our Unit just completed our Annual Training on Anti-Discrimination policy, we can not be bias based on race, religion, color, creed, gender, National Origin, Sexual Orientation, age, disability or any other protected group. We must make every reasonable accommodation to be inclusive and transparent.

DoD requires that Kosher and Halal be provide to service people; I know for a fact that is not a requirement at for instance the NCSA I attend, I bring my own food.  It is not required at encampments, and if it is we are failing since the kitchens are not kosher (I have no idea if the utensils for Halal food are required to be kept in a certain way).  I do not disagree that the Encampment Chaplain would attempt to get a Rabbi, but the issue is that running events on Saturdays immediately excludes observant Jews, which in my mind is not discrimination, but one could interpret it as such

IF CAP held activities SPECIFICALLY in order to exclude members of different faiths, I'd give that some credence. Historically, members work Monday-Friday 8-5 (I'm not one of them, my work week starts on Thursday and ends Monday), so weekends are about the only practical time to have SAREXs and so on. This is not done to exclude, but to make it as easy for the 50,000+ members to participate outside of meetings.

Food-wise, I would assume that any encampment held on a DoD installation would already have a mechanism in place for feeding people with not only dietary restrictions (peanut allergies, etc), but religious exemptions. For someone needing/wanting a Rabbi, I'm fairly certain one can be summoned with little difficulty on a DoD installation, or perhaps from a synagogue nearby. The base chaplain will have that information.

Reasonable accommodation is just that: reasonable. If the member understands that hurdles were jumped, fire rings were jumped through, and mountains were moved to accommodate them and it didn't work out logistically, it sure would go over better than "Nah, we can't because reasons."

I didn't make my point well obviously.  I don't think any of it is discrimination, I was pointing out that the same logic that is being used in this argument about the scholarship could be used to argue for Sunday SAREX's; 12 year old scanners, etc.  And as an FYI I was at NER RSC a few years ago there is no Rabbi assigned there and very few synagogues in that area (Ft Dix).  Nor was Kosher food an option in the dining hall, I brought my own.

NO RABBI AT FORT DIX? New Jersey. Oy. 

[THRAWN]

Actually Alaric, DOD does require that Kosher and Halal meals be provided. We are also required to ensure that any religious denomination be allowed for Spiritual aid or comfort. I.E., if you have a Cadet that requests to see a Rabbi during Encampment, the Encampment Chaplain must use every effort to get a Rabbi. This is called Respect. Our Unit just completed our Annual Training on Anti-Discrimination policy, we can not be bias based on race, religion, color, creed, gender, National Origin, Sexual Orientation, age, disability or any other protected group. We must make every reasonable accommodation to be inclusive and transparent.

DoD requires that Kosher and Halal be provide to service people; I know for a fact that is not a requirement at for instance the NCSA I attend, I bring my own food.  It is not required at encampments, and if it is we are failing since the kitchens are not kosher (I have no idea if the utensils for Halal food are required to be kept in a certain way).  I do not disagree that the Encampment Chaplain would attempt to get a Rabbi, but the issue is that running events on Saturdays immediately excludes observant Jews, which in my mind is not discrimination, but one could interpret it as such

IF CAP held activities SPECIFICALLY in order to exclude members of different faiths, I'd give that some credence. Historically, members work Monday-Friday 8-5 (I'm not one of them, my work week starts on Thursday and ends Monday), so weekends are about the only practical time to have SAREXs and so on. This is not done to exclude, but to make it as easy for the 50,000+ members to participate outside of meetings.

Food-wise, I would assume that any encampment held on a DoD installation would already have a mechanism in place for feeding people with not only dietary restrictions (peanut allergies, etc), but religious exemptions. For someone needing/wanting a Rabbi, I'm fairly certain one can be summoned with little difficulty on a DoD installation, or perhaps from a synagogue nearby. The base chaplain will have that information.

Reasonable accommodation is just that: reasonable. If the member understands that hurdles were jumped, fire rings were jumped through, and mountains were moved to accommodate them and it didn't work out logistically, it sure would go over better than "Nah, we can't because reasons."

I didn't make my point well obviously.  I don't think any of it is discrimination, I was pointing out that the same logic that is being used in this argument about the scholarship could be used to argue for Sunday SAREX's; 12 year old scanners, etc.  And as an FYI I was at NER RSC a few years ago there is no Rabbi assigned there and very few synagogues in that area (Ft Dix).  Nor was Kosher food an option in the dining hall, I brought my own.

Not too sure what you mean by "the area", but I can think of about 6 or so within a 30 minute drive. What dining hall did you go to? They have the option, but needs to be coordinated. Bad on the school planners...

[PHall]

I was helping my son to find a summer encampment and came across the following from the Texas Wing Glider Encampment - http://www.ncsas.com/?tx_wing_glider_academy&show=career_fair&careerFairID=68

Cadets that are 15 or older and have earned the Wright Brothers Award are encouraged to apply for the Col Mary Feik Flight Scholarship to help pay for this activity!

What about Cadets under 15? The minimum age to solo in a glider is 14.

15 is the age required to receive the Feik scholarship and has nothing to do with the requirements for soloing in a glider.

I strongly suspect that the age 15 minimum age has to do with maturity levels.

[xray328]

What does that have to do with it? Minimum age for the activity is 14. It's not as if they're saying "ok you can go at 14, but we aren't paying until you're 15."

[lordmonar]

Also remember that the Col Mary Feik Scholarship is for ANY flight related training.....and not just NCSAs.

The link between the two is simply a reminder that "if you get selected you are eligible to use the Feik Scholarship money to pay for it."

[Storm Chaser]

Yes, let's equivocate the Tuskegee Airman Foundation with the KKK...    I'm sure both groups would really appreciate the analogy.

...

Pretty sad, really.

I think this straw man argument is indeed "pretty sad" and NOT what the Colonel said at all.

CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary and the Air Force and other government and non-profit institutions have similar programs. There's nothing improper about it, as Col Lee has stated several times.

[Nuke52]

Yes, let's equivocate the Tuskegee Airman Foundation with the KKK...    I'm sure both groups would really appreciate the analogy.

...

Pretty sad, really.

I think this straw man argument is indeed "pretty sad" and NOT what the Colonel said at all.

I know I used some pretty big words there, so you might want to look them up:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equivocate  [Although in hindsight, the synonym "prevaricate" may have been more accurate.]
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analogy

Umm, Mr. Pace, sir:  I'm so, so sorry to bother you, sir, but Storm Chaser said my argument was "pretty sad," sir, and my feelings are definitely hurt, sir, by his post which was "intended to incite a rise out of" me, sir.  I hope you're going to also warn him both publicly and privately about "personal jabs" and "personal attacks"...

Flashback:

... you felt the need to post a picture intending to incite a rise out of those who disagree with you and add the line "pretty sad, really." 
... The "personal attacks" will not be tolerated. 
... posting inflammatory comments will not be tolerated. Last warning.

But I'm not holding my breath.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Do you ever let up?

[Storm Chaser]

Lt Col Nuke52,

If my comments offended you in any way, please accept my apologies. It wasn't my intent to offend you.

Nevertheless, I think your argument is not a good one and your comparison is inappropriate at best. You know what Col Lee said (it's clearly stated in his multiple posts) and somehow twisted his example in your reply. I don't know if it was intentional or not. Maybe I jumped to conclusions when I read your post. But it's clear from the tone of your posts that you've taken this discussion personal. It shouldn't be.

I hope we can continue discussing our disagreements with respect and maybe even try to find a middle ground. Have a good day, sir.

Respectfully,

Storm Chaser

[Pace]

Yes, let's equivocate the Tuskegee Airman Foundation with the KKK...    I'm sure both groups would really appreciate the analogy.

...

Pretty sad, really.

I think this straw man argument is indeed "pretty sad" and NOT what the Colonel said at all.

I know I used some pretty big words there, so you might want to look them up:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equivocate  [Although in hindsight, the synonym "prevaricate" may have been more accurate.]
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analogy

Umm, Mr. Pace, sir:  I'm so, so sorry to bother you, sir, but Storm Chaser said my argument was "pretty sad," sir, and my feelings are definitely hurt, sir, by his post which was "intended to incite a rise out of" me, sir.  I hope you're going to also warn him both publicly and privately about "personal jabs" and "personal attacks"...

Flashback:

... you felt the need to post a picture intending to incite a rise out of those who disagree with you and add the line "pretty sad, really." 
... The "personal attacks" will not be tolerated. 
... posting inflammatory comments will not be tolerated. Last warning.

But I'm not holding my breath.

Enough. You just can't help but insult other people. And for the record, he was clearly quoting you.

This thread is over, and so is your membership on CAPTalk.