Hawk vs NESA

[DWilkins]

Without to much emotion and bias (which may be difficult based on the various threads that I've read) can some explain the difference between Hawk Mtn and NESA Ground Team training?  Ranger vs. GTM(1, 2 or 3)  If anyone is brave enough, why does CAP maintain two, what seem to be similar, schools?

[Spaceman3750]

NESA is a national activity. Hawk is not.

NESA uses the nationally standardized curriculum. Hawk uses "Ranger" curriculum".

Hawk's "Ranger" designation is subject to heavy controversy and debate. NESA uses the regular qualifications that the rest of the country does.

[NCRblues]

Without to much emotion and bias (which may be difficult based on the various threads that I've read) can some explain the difference between Hawk Mtn and NESA Ground Team training?  Ranger vs. GTM(1, 2 or 3)  If anyone is brave enough, why does CAP maintain two, what seem to be similar, schools?

there is no difference, only GTM 1 2 or 3....that's it. "ranger tabs" or anything else with that word on it mean diddly squat inside CAP, and even less outside CAP.

The term "ranger" is confusing to cap members, imagine how confusing it is to people that have no idea about CAP....

[lordmonar]

Ranger and all that other Hawk Talk is just PAWG talk for GTM stuff.  Effectively no difference.

CAP does not have two schools....CAP has one school and PAWG has another.

Go to which ever one you want...have fun......ignore the political BS you read here.

[JC004]

It's not really GTM "vs" because they do sign you off for the GTM levels that you earn also.

Their program pre-dates CAP's national standards.  It was the big program with actual tasks until 2001's 60-3, etc.  Before that, for the national GTM qualification (only one level of GTM), all you had to do was show up for 3 missions (or training missions) and get a little card (CAPF 101T) signed off for the specialty by someone who was also it.  There were no tasks to complete.

The Hawk program had actual sign-offs like knots, firebuilding, search lines, etc.

Their program still does have additional requirements not found in the GTM curriculum such as physical fitness testing requirements, more specific knots/ropes things, completing hikes with gear, and attending specific schools.  Here's an example sign-off sheet: http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/forms/RangerFirstClassTestingSheetMar2007.pdf

The reason, I guess, that CAP maintains two is because the Hawk program pre-dates GTM, NESA and all of that.

Some people argue that the GTM qualification should have physical fitness of some kind or at least the hike requirements like the Hawk program has. ("Complete a 2 Mile Hike with Day Gear" for R-3)

You do have to do GTM, GTL, etc. to get their ratings.

You'd really need to talk to their active program people for specific questions.  I did that as a young cadet, but only really did up to Ranger 1st Class.  I wasn't really into it.  I just mostly did communications stuff for them.

[elipod]

My advice if you decide to go to Hawk.

Your staff will only sign you off in 'Ranger' ratings unless you ask otherwise. At Hawk, you have to DEMAND that they sign you off in GTM ratings, or you will never get it. I have been there a few times, and they certainly don't care one bit about GTM ratings, thats why you have to persist until you get the signatures.

[thatonekid]

Duly noted, thanks elipod, I would have been mad...

[a2capt]

"demand" might not be the word you're looking for. But armed with the Task Guide in mind, compare your performance with that of the Task Guide requirements and present your SQTR accordingly at the time.

But going in with the "demanding" attitude may get you results you're not looking for. Being informed, educated and prepared, and making it known in a normal way of communications. Such as having your paperwork organized will go a lot further...

[elipod]

"demand" might not be the word you're looking for. But armed with the Task Guide in mind, compare your performance with that of the Task Guide requirements and present your SQTR accordingly at the time.

But going in with the "demanding" attitude may get you results you're not looking for. Being informed, educated and prepared, and making it known in a normal way of communications. Such as having your paperwork organized will go a lot further...

Oh, of course. But sir, have you been to Hawk? It IS almost impossible to get their 'rangers' to sign any GTM ratings. They just don't like to do it. I had three cadets go there, and I was the only one who got any sign-offs. The other cadets of course all got Ranger ratings that day. When I asked why they didn't get any GTM ratings, they responded with "my staff didn't like GTM ratings, so they would only sign-off Ranger sheets".
My Squadron commander was appalled, to say the least.

[JC004]

There isn't a question of liking them or not liking them.  While changes are in the process for ratings, as it stands, GTM, GTL, etc. are required parts of the Ranger ratings program.

[Spaceman3750]

Since ranger ratings are useless on a real mission I'm not sure why they hate GTM so much.

[fyrfitrmedic]

NESA is a national activity. Hawk is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Cadet_Special_Activities

Google Is Your Friend.

[HGjunkie]

http://ncsas.com/index.cfm/hawk_mountain_search_and_rescue_school?show=career_fair&careerFairID=28

It's an NCSA, but it's managed by PAWG, not National.

[Spaceman3750]

NESA is a national activity. Hawk is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Cadet_Special_Activities

Google Is Your Friend.

Wikipedia is hardly a solid source. In any event, I checked 39-3 and it's listed for an NCSA ribbon. I learned something new today.

I've always considered it a PAWG activity but I guess not...

[BGNightfall]

I'm actually somewhat confused as to why PAWG Ranger Staff would actually refuse to sign off on GTM tasks.  From everything I'm reading in the program guides for both the Ranger program as a whole, and the Ranger Staff program specifically, GTM training is a requirement for serving as a staff member.  As such, why would the staff not serve to assist and train their trainees to that standard, as well as the Ranger standard?  Especially since, as noted above, Ranger grades have no ES value outside of PA.   

[Eclipse]

They may not be approved SETs, or even hold the ratings themselves.

[cap235629]

I'm actually somewhat confused as to why PAWG Ranger Staff would actually refuse to sign off on GTM tasks.  From everything I'm reading in the program guides for both the Ranger program as a whole, and the Ranger Staff program specifically, GTM training is a requirement for serving as a staff member.  As such, why would the staff not serve to assist and train their trainees to that standard, as well as the Ranger standard? Especially since, as noted above, Ranger grades have no ES value outside of PA.   

Or on any AF assigned mission

[octavian]

I've never had any problem getting SQTRs signed off at Hawk and neither have any of my cadets.   

[DWilkins]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed answers to my original question.  I have learned some great stuff from your responses and applaud your professionalism :clap:

[fyrfitrmedic]

NESA is a national activity. Hawk is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Cadet_Special_Activities

Google Is Your Friend.

Wikipedia is hardly a solid source. In any event, I checked 39-3 and it's listed for an NCSA ribbon. I learned something new today.

Wikipedia is good for "quick and dirty" reference; I simply didn't have time to cite chapter and verse.