Main Menu

Blue berets questions

Started by fightingfalcon, March 08, 2010, 02:55:43 AM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Eclipse

An interesting perspective...

I am an 8 year CAP cadet and a SrA in USAF Security Forces. I went to NBB in 03. Berets have no place in CAP. In the Air Force, in SF we wear a badge to represent our roles as cops. The beret in the Air Force is the mark of a Combat Airman. The four career fields that wear berets in the Air Force are the ones that are shot at on a regular basis, they distinguish us from the rest of the service by showing that in our jobs in wartime are outside the wire. Cadets walking around in berets makes CAP look childish to most airmen because we know that those berets dont mean what a beret is supposed to mean.

Another problem with the CAP beret regulation is that a beret is not worn as simply something that youve earned but something a unit wears. The way the beret is worn at NBB is the way that it is worn in the military. You wear a beret while performing the function that it represents with a unit that that is the mission of. Once you leave that unit, you no longer wear the beret. If an Air Force Pararescueman goes and becomes a recruiter or a basic training instructor, he hangs up his maroon beret and puts on a flight cap or a campaign cover. When CAP cadets go back to their squadrons, they should put their normal covers back on. The NBB patch is their permenant recognition for going there, not the beret.


(From the NBB Facebook page).

"That Others May Zoom"

Fuzzy

#41
Quote from: NBB0058 on April 12, 2010, 02:23:32 AM
Quote from: Fuzzy on April 09, 2010, 11:55:27 PM
Quote from: N Harmon on April 09, 2010, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 09, 2010, 04:31:24 PMNBB is a single activity - no different than any NCSA

>:(

National Blue Beret, while also a NCSA, is the only NCSA that is also an operational mission of Civil Air Patrol. And while that operational mission is unique and principally non-distress in nature, it does require a special set of skills not normally found among CAP ES operators and is an important part of the overall safety of EAA Oshkosh.



Say what you will about the poor attitudes of attendees and their overblown self-importance. Those are valid points to make. But when addressing those attitudes, please don't disrespect the activity and it's history. Okay?

NBB is just another NCSA.

SUPT-FC is the only activity where you spend a week in the shoes of USAF pilot in SUPT, but the cadets don't come home wearing flight helmets. Just a patch and an experience.

As an aside. Why the heck a beret anyway? Why name the activity after headgear? Why the "St Albans" cross as a flash? Its pretty random IMHO. Why not follow USAF example and have the flash be a metallic pin in the shape of the NBB logo?


1. I have attended SUPT-FC,  you do not "spend the week in the shoes of an airforce pilot" you learn some of the things they learn, and walk around base acting like your hot [Filter Subversion] so maybe the attitude of a pilot, but not the activies
Also, the reason we wear the "st. Albans pin, is beacuse it is a sign of mercy and assistance, what we as blue berets represent

Heh whatever dude. ;)
C/Capt Semko

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on April 12, 2010, 03:22:38 AM
An interesting perspective...

I am an 8 year CAP cadet and a SrA in USAF Security Forces. I went to NBB in 03. Berets have no place in CAP. In the Air Force, in SF we wear a badge to represent our roles as cops. The beret in the Air Force is the mark of a Combat Airman. The four career fields that wear berets in the Air Force are the ones that are shot at on a regular basis, they distinguish us from the rest of the service by showing that in our jobs in wartime are outside the wire. Cadets walking around in berets makes CAP look childish to most airmen because we know that those berets dont mean what a beret is supposed to mean.
Strange....all those times as a Combat Communicator sitting on top a hill top miles from the wire...getting shot at....no one ever issued me a beret.

Don't drink that cool aid.   They were berets because berets are cool and they are "special". 

Quote from: Eclipse on April 12, 2010, 03:22:38 AM
Another problem with the CAP beret regulation is that a beret is not worn as simply something that youve earned but something a unit wears. The way the beret is worn at NBB is the way that it is worn in the military. You wear a beret while performing the function that it represents with a unit that that is the mission of. Once you leave that unit, you no longer wear the beret. If an Air Force Pararescueman goes and becomes a recruiter or a basic training instructor, he hangs up his maroon beret and puts on a flight cap or a campaign cover. When CAP cadets go back to their squadrons, they should put their normal covers back on. The NBB patch is their permenant recognition for going there, not the beret.[/i]

(From the NBB Facebook page).

Well a little wrong....Units don't wear the beret....but particular people in that unit.

A PJ in a Rescue Squadron will wear the beret...but the helo crew chief in the same unit will not.  A Cop on detached duty to another unit (say an Intell Group) will continue to wear the beret because he is still a cop.

Either way....that is not how CAP views the beret from NBB.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on April 12, 2010, 05:04:41 AM
Don't drink that cool aid.   They were berets because berets are cool and they are "special". 

On this we agree, which brings us to back to the reason they are an issue in CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

Dracosbane

WIWAC, the blue berets were authorized for wear by NBB attendees at NBB, and by anyone else if authorized by a (wing, unit?) commander.  It happened that in INWG, most of the people who were wearing the beret were on a ground team.  There was a respect for those wearing the berets, as they'd BTDT on training, missions, etc.  I believe the regs authorized them for anyone, but it was a bit of an unwritten rule that the GTMs only wore them.  It was a great privilege to finally "earn the right" to wear one as a member of your unit's team.  The camaraderie, the esprit de corp, the finally earning it, gave the wearing of the beret a bit of honor and accomplishment.

Then I left CAP and when I came back, I find out that somewhere along the way, that all disappeared.  It seems everyone was wearing it, and that made it not as special.  But unit ballcaps were authorized, and now we can make ourselves different from other people in our own way, so my beret, still formed and waiting to be worn will just sit and be a reminder of glory days gone by.

davidsinn

Quote from: Dracosbane on April 12, 2010, 05:40:22 AM
WIWAC, the blue berets were authorized for wear by NBB attendees at NBB, and by anyone else if authorized by a (wing, unit?) commander.  It happened that in INWG, most of the people who were wearing the beret were on a ground team.  There was a respect for those wearing the berets, as they'd BTDT on training, missions, etc.  I believe the regs authorized them for anyone, but it was a bit of an unwritten rule that the GTMs only wore them.  It was a great privilege to finally "earn the right" to wear one as a member of your unit's team.  The camaraderie, the esprit de corp, the finally earning it, gave the wearing of the beret a bit of honor and accomplishment.

Then I left CAP and when I came back, I find out that somewhere along the way, that all disappeared.  It seems everyone was wearing it, and that made it not as special.  But unit ballcaps were authorized, and now we can make ourselves different from other people in our own way, so my beret, still formed and waiting to be worn will just sit and be a reminder of glory days gone by.

Since you have a GT badge you can wear a beret in INWG on ES ops only. It's in the current 39-1 supplement for our wing.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

N Harmon

Quote from: Fuzzy on April 09, 2010, 11:55:27 PM
NBB is just another NCSA.

SUPT-FC is the only activity where you spend a week in the shoes of USAF pilot in SUPT, but the cadets don't come home wearing flight helmets. Just a patch and an experience.

All NCSAs are different and each imparts different experiences. But let's be clear: NBB is the only NCSA that would still need to be worked if it were not an NCSA. And the cadets do work, paying for the privilege. I think a little thanks is warranted, and for a lot of them the beret serves as thanks enough.

QuoteAs an aside. Why the heck a beret anyway? Why name the activity after headgear? Why the "St Albans" cross as a flash? Its pretty random IMHO. Why not follow USAF example and have the flash be a metallic pin in the shape of the NBB logo?

I can't answer that. I attended NBB because I loved working airshows and EAA Oshkosh was the best of them (except maybe Paris, but I couldn't say). The beret itself was secondary, maybe tertiary...I thought it would be cool to earn my find and SAR ribbons there. And the beret wasn't even on my mind when I went back as staff.

Of course, back then you couldn't wear berets except at NBB. But even if that rule didn't exist, it wouldn't have changed my reason for attending.

Quote from: arajca on April 10, 2010, 01:26:42 PM
Actually, many of us are arguing about the attitude and problems caused by the folks who get a hat for telling pilots where to go at an airshow...

And some are arguing about the proper way to address those attitudes and problems. Namely, it isn't to belittle something that while not meaning a whole lot to adults who have BTDT, to cadets is considered a notable accomplishment.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

arajca

Quote from: N Harmon on April 12, 2010, 01:39:51 PM
Quote from: arajca on April 10, 2010, 01:26:42 PM
Actually, many of us are arguing about the attitude and problems caused by the folks who get a hat for telling pilots where to go at an airshow...

And some are arguing about the proper way to address those attitudes and problems. Namely, it isn't to belittle something that while not meaning a whole lot to adults who have BTDT, to cadets is considered a notable accomplishment.
The most successful way I've seen of handling the attitude is - no beret. Remove the beret and the attitude becomes a very minor issue that can be handled with a stern look or occassional word.

PHall

Semi On Topic:

I attended the Oshkosh Airshow as a participant several years ago (Boom Operator on a KC-10 that was on display and was also supporting the SR-71 on display).

Here's my question.

I attended the entire airshow (couldn't leave if I wanted to), and I was a current member of CAP at the time.

Am I entitled to wear the Blue Beret?

Looking at the requirements given to "earn" the beret, it's a toss up.

So what do you guys think?

And please, do not reply if you have not attended NBB.

Dracosbane

I haven't attended, but I'll answer anyway.  I'd say no, if you weren't there as a CAP member.  If you were working for some other group (I'm assuming the military?) but didn't do what the CAP members were doing, you weren't earning it the same as they were.  Same thing if I was in the RM and training at Camp Atterbury during the recent spring encampment, doesn't mean I'm attending the encampment and get to wear the ribbon for it.

N Harmon

Quote from: arajca on April 12, 2010, 03:40:21 PM
The most successful way I've seen of handling the attitude is - no beret. Remove the beret and the attitude becomes a very minor issue that can be handled with a stern look or occassional word.

That isn't such a bad way of dealing with it. I'd probably use the beret as a carrot rather than a stick though. :)

Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 04:03:14 PM
Am I entitled to wear the Blue Beret?

So what do you guys think?

I have attended NBB, twice, and the National Board minutes resolved that the blue beret must be awarded, so I don't think you are.

However, I am aware of no regulation which states you must have even attended a particular activity to wear that activity's patch, so I don't see why you couldn't wear a NBB patch.   ;D
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

PHall

Quote from: Dracosbane on April 12, 2010, 04:58:03 PM
I haven't attended, but I'll answer anyway.  I'd say no, if you weren't there as a CAP member.  If you were working for some other group (I'm assuming the military?) but didn't do what the CAP members were doing, you weren't earning it the same as they were.  Same thing if I was in the RM and training at Camp Atterbury during the recent spring encampment, doesn't mean I'm attending the encampment and get to wear the ribbon for it.

Uh, what part of "do not reply if you have not attended NBB" did you not understand?

I'm looking for an answer from people who have been there and know what they're talking about.
If you haven't been there then you probably do not know the "correct" answer.

lordmonar

Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 05:44:08 PM
Quote from: Dracosbane on April 12, 2010, 04:58:03 PM
I haven't attended, but I'll answer anyway.  I'd say no, if you weren't there as a CAP member.  If you were working for some other group (I'm assuming the military?) but didn't do what the CAP members were doing, you weren't earning it the same as they were.  Same thing if I was in the RM and training at Camp Atterbury during the recent spring encampment, doesn't mean I'm attending the encampment and get to wear the ribbon for it.

Uh, what part of "do not reply if you have not attended NBB" did you not understand?

I'm looking for an answer from people who have been there and know what they're talking about.
If you haven't been there then you probably do not know the "correct" answer.
What makes you think that just because someone has been there....that they know how to make a correct reglatory interpetiation? :o

PHall...I have not been to NBB and neither have you....you went to Airventure at Oshkosh.....two seperate but related events.  ;D
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

PHall

Quote from: lordmonar on April 12, 2010, 07:38:51 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 05:44:08 PM
Quote from: Dracosbane on April 12, 2010, 04:58:03 PM
I haven't attended, but I'll answer anyway.  I'd say no, if you weren't there as a CAP member.  If you were working for some other group (I'm assuming the military?) but didn't do what the CAP members were doing, you weren't earning it the same as they were.  Same thing if I was in the RM and training at Camp Atterbury during the recent spring encampment, doesn't mean I'm attending the encampment and get to wear the ribbon for it.

Uh, what part of "do not reply if you have not attended NBB" did you not understand?

I'm looking for an answer from people who have been there and know what they're talking about.
If you haven't been there then you probably do not know the "correct" answer.
What makes you think that just because someone has been there....that they know how to make a correct reglatory interpetiation? :o

PHall...I have not been to NBB and neither have you....you went to Airventure at Oshkosh.....two seperate but related events.  ;D

And I'm looking for an answer from of the "Folks-in-Charge". Something backed up with a reg cite would be awesome.


NCRblues

I have been to NBB 3 times, once as a cadet, twice as TACO

You would not qualify to wear the patch or beret because you were not on the roster for that year at NBB.

Attending the air show does not qualify you for recognition of NBB.

Just because you happened to be on lackland AFB when tech schools graduated, does that make you eligible to wear their distinctive insignia?
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

PHall

Quote from: NCRblues on April 12, 2010, 10:06:32 PM
I have been to NBB 3 times, once as a cadet, twice as TACO

You would not qualify to wear the patch or beret because you were not on the roster for that year at NBB.

Attending the air show does not qualify you for recognition of NBB.

Just because you happened to be on lackland AFB when tech schools graduated, does that make you eligible to wear their distinctive insignia?

Now please back up your NBB stuff with a reg cite.

And your Lackland AFB comparison is bogus because the Air Force reg does state that you must successfully complete the school to be awarded the AFSC which makes you eligible to wear the Specialty Insignia.

The AF Reg is specific, the CAP reg is not.

AirAux

CAPR 52-16 notes that to earn credit for an encampment, one must complete 80% of that encampment..  One of my cadets, a Blue Beret, says the beret isn't given it is earned..

NCRblues

 >:(
What a joke, are we really going to argue about being able to where the beret and patch?

You must attend and earn the beret and patch...its that simple.

You want to wear the beret and patch because you happened to be at the air show? Fine, but that makes you a low life IMHO.

Way to disrespect those that have attended and work their a^% off helping make one of the worlds largest airshows run smooth. If you want to disrespect those cadets and senior members than go for it, but how sad is that? ::)
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

SarDragon

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.  :(
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

FW

Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 04:03:14 PM
Semi On Topic:

I attended the Oshkosh Airshow as a participant several years ago (Boom Operator on a KC-10 that was on display and was also supporting the SR-71 on display).

Here's my question.

I attended the entire airshow (couldn't leave if I wanted to), and I was a current member of CAP at the time.

Am I entitled to wear the Blue Beret?

Looking at the requirements given to "earn" the beret, it's a toss up.

So what do you guys think?

And please, do not reply if you have not attended NBB.
The answer is; NO.
The National Board has allowed NCSA patches or berets "earned" by successful attendance and completion of the activity to be worn. (National Board minutes Summer 2006)  They must be "awarded" to the participant.