What is a chance of a cadet form GAWG getting a support staff position at Florida Encampment if he never been to encampment but he has held many wing staff positions and organized many wing level activities.
Quote from: Cms.sloane on August 21, 2010, 03:13:48 AM
What is a chance of a cadet form GAWG getting a support staff position at Florida Encampment if he never been to encampment but he has held many wing staff positions and organized many wing level activities.
0.
I honestly can't even begin to express how horrible of an idea that would be.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on August 21, 2010, 03:23:04 AM
Quote from: Cms.sloane on August 21, 2010, 03:13:48 AM
What is a chance of a cadet form GAWG getting a support staff position at Florida Encampment if he never been to encampment but he has held many wing staff positions and organized many wing level activities.
0.
You can't be staff if you've never been a basic.
o, Just wondering because i have heard of cadets going to their first encampment as staff.
Quote from: Cms.sloane on August 21, 2010, 04:19:40 AM
o, Just wondering because i have heard of cadets going to their first encampment as staff.
Were they smiling when they told you this? >:D
LOL, but no
Sorry, but no dice.
Cadets from five Wings attended this summers Florida Wing Encampment. Several were on staff. But to get on staff you would have to attended an encampment as a basic, or politically incorrect term "Doolie". But you'll find that your basic encampment is fun and you'll learn alot.
Which reminds me- I need to finish up my staff application.
Where do you find the staff applications?
http://www.flcadet.com/cp/winterencampment.aspx
Quote from: nicktavegia on August 21, 2010, 12:41:59 PM
Where do you find the staff applications?
^What he said. You must be at least a C/SSgt to apply though.
Thanks
just sent in my application...
I put juicy large essay answers to make it awesomer :clap:
1st= PAO
2nd= Admin
3rd= Logistics
Would go as Flt. Sgt. but Im saving that for BCT so I can get experience
And I see alot of guys here who I know from BCT and GAWG summer lol
So I have 3 weeks to get $110 for encampment staff? :-[
That's pretty much not financially possible for me... I would love to go as a Flt/CC or even support staff, but....
$110 for a week ain't that bad. Sell some stuff on eBay. :)
You know, I am getting paid enough to afford the selling costs for a laptop.... >:D Anyone interested?
I suppose I'll get it into gear and sell off my worldly possessions. I've been meaning to clear up my bookshelves :angel:
Time to get on eBay and start listing. I'm a-goin to FLWG! (maybe)
So I'm going to sell all this crap and get the money to show up to encampment on my BIRTHDAY??? Now that's dedication! Or lack of better things to do ^_^
Quote from: vorter on August 22, 2010, 04:46:00 AM
just sent in my application...
I put juicy large essay answers to make it awesomer :clap:
1st= PAO
2nd= Admin
3rd= Logistics
Would go as Flt. Sgt. but Im saving that for BCT so I can get experience
And I see alot of guys here who I know from BCT and GAWG summer lol
Better to write a good short essay, with good spelling, grammar, and punctuation, than a long bad one
Quote from: DakRadz on August 22, 2010, 05:07:57 AM
You know, I am getting paid enough to afford the selling costs for a laptop.... >:D Anyone interested?
I suppose I'll get it into gear and sell off my worldly possessions. I've been meaning to clear up my bookshelves :angel:
Time to get on eBay and start listing. I'm a-goin to FLWG! (maybe)
So I'm going to sell all this crap and get the money to show up to encampment on my BIRTHDAY??? Now that's dedication! Or lack of better things to do ^_^
Your choice. The year I was the C/CC at encampment, my First Sergeant and Two Flight Commanders had their B-Days during the event.
And if selling books, go on Amazon.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on August 22, 2010, 05:16:26 AM
And if selling books, go on Amazon.
Half.com is where I've had great success selling old textbooks.
Any suggestions as to staff positions for choices number 2 and 3? First choice is Flt/CC, and I don't think I can handle Sqd/CC quite yet (maybe GAWG 2011 :D), so I guess I'm wondering what the best support positions are.
A few which I don't know the definition for-
Food Services- does FLWG provide their own meals? What does this entail?
Group Superintendent- what sort of Group? An actual 2-3 squadrons formation, or something else entirely?
Medical- what can cadets really do here?
Standardization/Evaluation- Ooo, encampment check rides? Really though... This one warrants an inquiry.
Safety- an assistant? This was SM run at GAWG 2010
Quote from: DakRadz on August 22, 2010, 05:38:42 AM
Any suggestions as to staff positions for choices number 2 and 3? First choice is Flt/CC, and I don't think I can handle Sqd/CC quite yet (maybe GAWG 2011 :D), so I guess I'm wondering what the best support positions are.
A few which I don't know the definition for-
Food Services- does FLWG provide their own meals? What does this entail?
Group Superintendent- what sort of Group? An actual 2-3 squadrons formation, or something else entirely?
Medical- what can cadets really do here?
Standardization/Evaluation- Ooo, encampment check rides? Really though... This one warrants an inquiry.
Safety- an assistant? This was SM run at GAWG 2010
Food services- sounds like KP.
Group superintendent- ?
Medical- hands out meds, take care of sick cadets.
Safety officer- basically a field medic.
Stan/Eval- does inspections, determines honor flight, honor cadet etc...
That's my understanding of things.
Sounds like vs. "I know this is what it is" is a huge difference. I kinda have a few hunches- I asked so anyone who knew for sure could clarify.
Well, yeah... I don't know either.
As touchy a subject handing meds out to cadets is, are you seriously suggesting they would allow a cadet to do this??
I don't buy that.
Same with being a medic- and as a Safety officer?? That sounds just like an extension of medical, not Safety.
The Stan/Eval sounds like you're guessing. *Sounds* like a nice job, but if that ain't wut it does, et ain't wut I want.
I was really looking for someone who's BTDT and can give me an actual description of the real job. So any past FLWG encampment staff want to help me out?
Quote from: DakRadz on August 22, 2010, 01:31:56 PM
Sounds like vs. "I know this is what it is" is a huge difference. I kinda have a few hunches- I asked so anyone who knew for sure could clarify.
Well, yeah... I don't know either.
As touchy a subject handing meds out to cadets is, are you seriously suggesting they would allow a cadet to do this??
I don't buy that.
Same with being a medic- and as a Safety officer?? That sounds just like an extension of medical, not Safety.
The Stan/Eval sounds like you're guessing. *Sounds* like a nice job, but if that ain't wut it does, et ain't wut I want.
I was really looking for someone who's BTDT and can give me an actual description of the real job. So any past FLWG encampment staff want to help me out?
A few points to consider...
- There are very strict rules as to dispensing medication. A Cadet will not be doing this- most SMs will not even be doing this.
- Likewise, a cadet who is an encampment "Medic" will be limited in what they can do based firstly on CAP policy and secondly on a lack of qualifications even if they were allowed. Considering that I know of a Cadet who was assigned as a "medic" to FLWG Encampment and he doesn't have any qualifications beyond basic CPR. This makes me think that Cadet "medics" don't really do much.
- There is a difference between a Medic and a Safety Officer. Keep in mind that Cadet positions on staff that are linked to a SM position often involve shadowing that SM and helping them with their duties- similar to positions at a unit.
...perhaps I'll apply for staff next summer. I would have for winter encampment, but I'm not a fan of how they always schedule it to include New Year's Eve/Day.
Straight from the horse's mouth: Encampment Staff Duty Descriptions (http://www.flcadet.com/cp/StaffDutyDescriptions.aspx)
Much appreciated, sir.
I'm slightly torn here. On one hand I could go as a Flt/CC or Stan/Eval (my top two choices at the moment), but I'm not sure if I'm ready for that. I've only been to one CAP encampment; never had the chance to go as a C/NCO... I don't have a lot of experience with this and I'm supposed to be training cadets.
Anyone ever heard of a C/officer as a doolie? ::)
Quote from: DakRadz on August 22, 2010, 03:00:05 PM
Much appreciated, sir.
I'm slightly torn here. On one hand I could go as a Flt/CC or Stan/Eval (my top two choices at the moment), but I'm not sure if I'm ready for that. I've only been to one CAP encampment; never had the chance to go as a C/NCO... I don't have a lot of experience with this and I'm supposed to be training cadets.
Anyone ever heard of a C/officer as a doolie? ::)
I heard a rumor about it at my basic encampment that when a cadet hits Mitchell they go back as a doolie... never seen it done though.
Quote from: DakRadz on August 22, 2010, 03:00:05 PM
Much appreciated, sir.
I'm slightly torn here. On one hand I could go as a Flt/CC or Stan/Eval (my top two choices at the moment), but I'm not sure if I'm ready for that. I've only been to one CAP encampment; never had the chance to go as a C/NCO... I don't have a lot of experience with this and I'm supposed to be training cadets.
Anyone ever heard of a C/officer as a doolie? ::)
IMHO encampment staff experience is not essential. It would certainly improve your understanding of how things work, but any competent C/2d Lt should be able to handle an encampment Flight CC position.
As to a cadet officer attending an encampment as a doolie, I find that to be hard to believe. Since an encampment is required PRIOR to the Mitchell, how did the cadet get a Mitchell without an encampment. Somebody pencil whip something here? The only possible way I can see this is if the cadet officer who has attended an encampment, applied for a staff position, didn't get it and still wanted to attend the encampment.
Quote from: DC on August 22, 2010, 03:26:38 PM
IMHO encampment staff experience is not essential. It would certainly improve your understanding of how things work, but any competent C/2d Lt should be able to handle an encampment Flight CC position.
That was either encouragement or a challenge of my manhood ;D I'll apply if I can get the money in, then. Maybe I can talk to the SMs running applications and explain to them I'll have plenty of money when I show up to encampment? You know, day after Christmas and the day
of my birthday.
I look forward to doing my best to be there and when I am there, regardless of what capacity it's in.
Quote from: DakRadz on August 22, 2010, 03:00:05 PM
Much appreciated, sir.
I'm slightly torn here. On one hand I could go as a Flt/CC or Stan/Eval (my top two choices at the moment), but I'm not sure if I'm ready for that. I've only been to one CAP encampment; never had the chance to go as a C/NCO... I don't have a lot of experience with this and I'm supposed to be training cadets.
Anyone ever heard of a C/officer as a doolie? ::)
Remember the encampment is still 4 months away. You may even have your Earhart by then.
As a Cadet Officer, you've progressed through the program and most likely served in various staff positions along the way. You should be able to handle most positions on encampment staff (especially as a potential C/Capt by then), the main difference being that it is full time for a week instead of one night a week, etc.
Okay, question- on the FLWG Staff Application, how does the parental approval and squadron certification happen?
It wants the forms to be electronically included in the application, so I don't see how it would be signed/approved.
Quote from: DakRadz on August 23, 2010, 09:33:12 PM
Okay, question- on the FLWG Staff Application, how does the parental approval and squadron certification happen?
It wants the forms to be electronically included in the application, so I don't see how it would be signed/approved.
Umm, Scanner?
Quote from: BillB on August 22, 2010, 03:37:42 PM
As to a cadet officer attending an encampment as a doolie, I find that to be hard to believe. Since an encampment is required PRIOR to the Mitchell, how did the cadet get a Mitchell without an encampment. Somebody pencil whip something here? The only possible way I can see this is if the cadet officer who has attended an encampment, applied for a staff position, didn't get it and still wanted to attend the encampment.
Sounds right.
Quote from: davidsinn on August 23, 2010, 10:02:10 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on August 23, 2010, 09:33:12 PM
Okay, question- on the FLWG Staff Application, how does the parental approval and squadron certification happen?
It wants the forms to be electronically included in the application, so I don't see how it would be signed/approved.
Umm, Scanner?
D'oh!!
"Ensure ALL signature fields are signed on the FLWG Form 500B before
scanning and uploading. Remember, all fillable fields on the FLWG Form 500B MUST by filled electronically before print/scan."
Thanks sir! :-[
Good thing I saw this prior to my CAP meeting night, get on it while I'm thinking about it.
Just out of curiosity: do you think they would let a "new" C/SSgt be Flight Sergent? (If all stays on schedule I would be C/SSgt the week prior to encampment).
Current choices: 1. Flight Sergent
2. Communications
3. Stan/Eval
Quote from: USNASomeDay on August 31, 2010, 08:23:13 PM
Just out of curiosity: do you think they would let a "new" C/SSgt be Flight Sergent? (If all stays on schedule I would be C/SSgt the week prior to encampment).
Current choices: 1. Flight Sergent
2. Communications
3. Stan/Eval
Have you already been through encampment?
It really is tough to say if you'd be selected as a Flight Sergeant as it really depends on your CAP experience back at your unit and also at other activities, and also who else applies.
Quote from: USNASomeDay on August 31, 2010, 08:23:13 PM
Just out of curiosity: do you think they would let a "new" C/SSgt be Flight Sergeant? (If all stays on schedule I would be C/SSgt the week prior to encampment).
Current choices: 1. Flight Sergent
2. Communications
3. Stan/Eval
Fix'd. Anyways, sure. It would give you experience, and a "baptism by fire" start to leading a flight.
Being from the same unit as USNA, I could say that he could probably handle a flight sergeant post. Only Problem I see would be his rank.
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 01, 2010, 10:19:00 PM
Being from the same unit as USNA, I could say that he could probably handle a flight sergeant post. Only Problem I see would be his rank.
There was a C/TSgt on flight staff @ my doolie encampment from ALWG. Don't see grade being an issue.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 01, 2010, 10:37:07 PM
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 01, 2010, 10:19:00 PM
Being from the same unit as USNA, I could say that he could probably handle a flight sergeant post. Only Problem I see would be his rank.
There was a C/TSgt on flight staff @ my doolie encampment from ALWG. Don't see grade being an issue.
Same here for GAWG 2010. He came all the way from Nebraska to be a Flt/Sgt.
Fly Boy, is USNASomeday a former/current NJROTC cadet?
Quote from: DakRadz on September 01, 2010, 11:00:33 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 01, 2010, 10:37:07 PM
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 01, 2010, 10:19:00 PM
Being from the same unit as USNA, I could say that he could probably handle a flight sergeant post. Only Problem I see would be his rank.
There was a C/TSgt on flight staff @ my doolie encampment from ALWG. Don't see grade being an issue.
Same here for GAWG 2010. He came all the way from Nebraska to be a Flt/Sgt.
Fly Boy, is USNASomeday a former/current NJROTC cadet?
As Far as I know he is neither. But being his Flight Sgt. Ive seen how he carries himself and even if his staff position is a "baptism by fire" he should be able to overcome and adapt. PM sent with other info.
Does anyone have a clue as to how a cadet is supposed to answer Question 4., regarding using the SMART goals cocept and keep the answer short enough to stay in the field area provided? TIA.
Quote from: capchiro on September 03, 2010, 05:49:21 PM
Does anyone have a clue as to how a cadet is supposed to answer Question 4., regarding using the SMART goals cocept and keep the answer short enough to stay in the field area provided? TIA.
I had the same question:
linky (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11221)
Actually the cadet had the SMART goals summary, but couldn't fit a decent answer into the field provided on the Application. It was really wierd, the field would expand to fit the complex answer, but when saved or printed, it cut off a lot of his answer. Strange to say the least, irritating to say the most.. Any takers??
Oops. Misread the question.
Well, I had the same problem. My final text for the SMART question literally filled up each line. I had pretty much zero room left. All I can say is edit edit edit. Paraphrase, and find shortcuts to get your point across in as little space as possible.
Can we please add "doolie" to the profanity filter?
Quote from: Eclipse on September 05, 2010, 03:34:11 PM
Can we please add "doolie" to the profanity filter?
Yes please. It's a derogatory term used to address cadets and has no place in this organization.
eh, i see it as just a synonym for cadet...
no one has ever used it disrespectfully at encampment, basically used the same as cadet...
but it may be different for others
Quote from: vorter on September 05, 2010, 04:39:33 PM
eh, i see it as just a synonym for cadet...
no one has ever used it disrespectfully at encampment, basically used the same as cadet...
but it may be different for others
It isn't. It is a "hardkewl" term used incorrectly and inappropriately in our context. A C/CMSgt attending his first encampment
may be a lot of things, but he's no "doolie" in the sense the word is normally used.
There is also the fact that it is lame. We don't do ourselves any favors when we, as seniors, allow these kinds of terms to be propagated.
Quote from: vorter on September 05, 2010, 04:39:33 PM
eh, i see it as just a synonym for cadet...
no one has ever used it disrespectfully at encampment, basically used the same as cadet...
but it may be different for others
This is one of the results I got when I googled it:
QuoteDoolie is an adjective used to describe a noun which the speaker considers to be of, or associated with a lower class from themselves. It may also refer to objects which are dirty or of a low intelligence.
That was one of the more polite ones. Here's another one:
QuoteDuring basic, "doolies"—a term for freshmen that comes from a Greek word for slave—are not allowed any outside contact except for letters and one phone call halfway through.
The bolded phrase is exactly why we should not use it. If you need a term to describe the first year attendees independent from the cadet staff use "basic." It works because it is their basic encampment.
Quote from: vorter on September 05, 2010, 04:39:33 PM
eh, i see it as just a synonym for cadet...
no one has ever used it disrespectfully at encampment, basically used the same as cadet...
but it may be different for others
Doolie is equivalent to noob not cadet. Every cookie is a cadet but not every cadet is a doolie. But as a C/SSgt I'm sure calling newer cadets that sound more appealing than just cadet so and so.
Cookie* = Doolie. [darn] droid x.
hmm? no, i call other cadets by grade (e.g. airman) no matter where I am
doolie just sounds funny to me
Then why use it? At its core use it's meant to put new cadets in their place. Not something we should be using in CAP. I think even the AFA doesn't allow its use anymore.
If it's so innapropriate, then why does FLWG engrave it on encampment challenge coins? Mine says "Doolie", and I could care less. Dictionary.com says that it means "a first-year cadet in the U.S. Air Force Academy. " So, it's an adaptation of that.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 05, 2010, 05:12:07 PM
Then why use it? At its core use it's meant to put new cadets in their place. Not something we should be using in CAP. I think even the AFA doesn't allow its use anymore.
Well, you don't want basic cadets running around thinking they run the place.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 05, 2010, 06:31:15 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 05, 2010, 05:12:07 PM
Then why use it? At its core use it's meant to put new cadets in their place. Not something we should be using in CAP. I think even the AFA doesn't allow its use anymore.
Well, you don't want basic cadets running around thinking they run the place.
The term "basic cadet" or "basic" serves to define a cadet's role quite nicely in the majority of the rest of the country.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 05, 2010, 06:31:15 PM
If it's so innapropriate, then why does FLWG engrave it on encampment challenge coins? Mine says "Doolie", and I could care less. Dictionary.com says that it means "a first-year cadet in the U.S. Air Force Academy. " So, it's an adaptation of that.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 05, 2010, 05:12:07 PM
Then why use it? At its core use it's meant to put new cadets in their place. Not something we should be using in CAP. I think even the AFA doesn't allow its use anymore.
Well, you don't want basic cadets running around thinking they run the place.
So because someone wanted to be hardkewl at the encampment an made challange coins with a term that fell out if favor at the place that made it popular makes t rights?
Doolie comes with the connotation of hazing. Basic comes with the understanding of a first time activity.
Time Magazine, Jan. 19, 1962, "When a "doolie," a first-year man at the U.S. Air Force Academy, is braced by an upperclassman, he sucks in his gut, throws out his chest and brays: "Sir, a doolie is that insignificant whose rank is measured in negative units, one whose potential for learning is unlimited." At meals he sits at attention and lifts his fork from plate to mouth in the rectangular movement of a robot; he shouts his response when asked a question. Until not so long ago, when entering his dormitory, he had to rasp in intercom fashion: "Sir, Air Force Academy jet 201K turning base, three green."*
The new Air Academy began all this business six years ago by grafting its own lingo on a century-old tradition at West Point and Annapolis. It is not quite hazing; an upperclassman has to ask a doolie's permission to touch him, even to straighten his tie. But if the official term for the custom is only "harassment," it still licenses upperclassmen to make life miserable for new men on the theory that "weak sisters" will quit."
I really don't think Doolie is inappropriate for CAP as we are an Auxiliary of the Air Force and pattern much after them and their heritage.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,895865,00.html#ixzz0yhbiPMPI
Quote from: Eclipse on September 05, 2010, 04:45:12 PM
Quote from: vorter on September 05, 2010, 04:39:33 PM
eh, i see it as just a synonym for cadet...
no one has ever used it disrespectfully at encampment, basically used the same as cadet...
but it may be different for others
It isn't. It is a "hardkewl" term used incorrectly and inappropriately in our context. A C/CMSgt attending his first encampment
may be a lot of things, but he's no "doolie" in the sense the word is normally used.
There is also the fact that it is lame. We don't do ourselves any favors when we, as seniors, allow these kinds of terms to be propagated.
Emphasis mine.
I was certainly a 'basic' without any argument. But a doolie? Heh. There were doolie staff, but only basic basics. ;)
P.S. All GAWG cadets attending their first (or repeating for whatever reason) encampment were basics.
'Basic' is no different IMO, since CAP has established manners of address for each grade.
Quote from: MIKE on September 06, 2010, 02:23:20 PM
'Basic' is no different IMO, since CAP has established manners of address for each grade.
I noticed that we ended up being called by last name more than basic by about 2-3 days in. It was more a descriptor and easy clarification- "Staff or Basic??" "Basic, ma'am!" "But you're a Chief.. Anyway, get moving!"
or
"Van 3 has 8 basics and 2 cadet staff"
Quote from: MIKE on September 06, 2010, 02:23:20 PM
'Basic' is no different IMO, since CAP has established manners of address for each grade.
If you're going to use that logic than we can't call them staff cadets either...
Basic is a classification of all cadets at encampment that are not staff. If you call for one cadet you should use the proper term of address for that cadets: Rank/name or Cadet/name
Basic =/= Doolie.
Basic Cadets get addressed as a flight or squadron, or by name and grade.
A Doolie is just derogatory.
I've never come up to a single cadet and called them "Basic" anything. I've heard of people in other wings call Basic cadets "Doolie Smith".
The only time I remember being called a Doolie was during inproscessing. The staff didn't know our names at the time. After that I was almost always called by my last name.
I feel that it is only offensive if you make it offensive. I wouldn't give a care what they called me as long as I knew that I wasn't receiving "special treatment" (my definition of hazing).
my 2 cents
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 06, 2010, 05:23:13 PM
The only time I remember being called a Doolie was during inproscessing. The staff didn't know our names at the time. After that I was almost always called by my last name.
I feel that it is only offensive if you make it offensive. I wouldn't give a care what they called me as long as I knew that I wasn't receiving "special treatment" (my definition of hazing).
my 2 cents
How could they not know your name? It's right there on your chest for all to see.
PHall
Many cadets arrive at an encampment in civilian clothes after a 6+ hour drive. Until they get assigned to a barracks they have no chance to get into uniform. So their name is not on their chest.
Quote from: BillB on September 06, 2010, 06:37:24 PM
PHall
Many cadets arrive at an encampment in civilian clothes after a 6+ hour drive. Until they get assigned to a barracks they have no chance to get into uniform. So their name is not on their chest.
Not PHall, but for GAWG cadets were required to arrive in uniform. We all had our BDUs on.
Not sure how it works where he is (CAWG, I think).
"Cadet" also works just as well as any other term. "Cadet" can, with a bit of inflection, be used as a reminder of Totem Pole Status, or even attempt at making it a derogatory term (The derogatory attempts have all been here on CAPTalk)
Doolie is a derogatory term, and if the cadet is not in uniform on arrival, he should be refered to as "Cadet".
Quote from: capchiro on September 03, 2010, 05:49:21 PM
Does anyone have a clue as to how a cadet is supposed to answer Question 4., regarding using the SMART goals cocept and keep the answer short enough to stay in the field area provided? TIA.
Does the application allow for a seperate page for additionalinformation?
Quote from: AirAux on September 05, 2010, 11:55:52 PMI really don't think Doolie is inappropriate for CAP as we are an Auxiliary of the Air Force and pattern much after them and their heritage.
It is inappropriate in that it doesn't apply. CAP cadets are not being trained for commission, they aren't spending
years at a commissioning school, they don't have the commitments that Air Force Academy cadets do. Air Force Academy cadets are getting degrees along with their commissions.
It's not "patterning" to decide to adopt a term to your own use, and rationalize how your program is the same as the one where the term originated. There are other words for that action.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the people that like to use the term have never been addressed in the manner.
Quote from: DakRadz on September 06, 2010, 06:46:47 PM
Quote from: BillB on September 06, 2010, 06:37:24 PM
PHall
Many cadets arrive at an encampment in civilian clothes after a 6+ hour drive. Until they get assigned to a barracks they have no chance to get into uniform. So their name is not on their chest.
Not PHall, but for GAWG cadets were required to arrive in uniform. We all had our BDUs on.
Not sure how it works where he is (CAWG, I think).
"Cadet" also works just as well as any other term. "Cadet" can, with a bit of inflection, be used as a reminder of Totem Pole Status, or even attempt at making it a derogatory term (The derogatory attempts have all been here on CAPTalk)
In CAWG, you arrive in uniform and you leave in uniform. And we have cadets who do 8 hour drives to get to Encampment.
Quote from: PHall on September 06, 2010, 08:41:50 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on September 06, 2010, 06:46:47 PM
Quote from: BillB on September 06, 2010, 06:37:24 PM
PHall
Many cadets arrive at an encampment in civilian clothes after a 6+ hour drive. Until they get assigned to a barracks they have no chance to get into uniform. So their name is not on their chest.
Not PHall, but for GAWG cadets were required to arrive in uniform. We all had our BDUs on.
Not sure how it works where he is (CAWG, I think).
"Cadet" also works just as well as any other term. "Cadet" can, with a bit of inflection, be used as a reminder of Totem Pole Status, or even attempt at making it a derogatory term (The derogatory attempts have all been here on CAPTalk)
In CAWG, you arrive in uniform and you leave in uniform. And we have cadets who do 8 hour drives to get to Encampment.
Considering some ES missions can drag 8+ hours in the field, I don't see how a car ride with a/c or open windows is any more unbearable. Cadets usually have to show up to an event in uniform so that they can be inspected on the spot for compliance, in at least one uniform. Now, being in Blues for that time might be somewhat uncomfortable, but BDUs are pants and a jacket...
Quote from: PHall on September 06, 2010, 05:32:41 PM
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 06, 2010, 05:23:13 PM
The only time I remember being called a Doolie was during inproscessing. The staff didn't know our names at the time. After that I was almost always called by my last name.
I feel that it is only offensive if you make it offensive. I wouldn't give a care what they called me as long as I knew that I wasn't receiving "special treatment" (my definition of hazing).
my 2 cents
How could they not know your name? It's right there on your chest for all to see.
The cadets who called the Basics "Doolie" were sorting the cadets into their flights, They saw alot of cadets and didn't really care to say names. After that we were introduced to the flight Sargent and commander and they learned our names.
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 06, 2010, 08:53:29 PM
The cadets who called the Basics "Doolie" were sorting the cadets into their flights, They saw alot of cadets and didn't really care to say names. After that we were introduced to the flight Sargent and commander and they learned our names.
The harder you reach for a justification, the more ridiculous it sounds. How do you "sort cadets" without knowing their names?
Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2010, 09:50:29 PM
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 06, 2010, 08:53:29 PM
The cadets who called the Basics "Doolie" were sorting the cadets into their flights, They saw alot of cadets and didn't really care to say names. After that we were introduced to the flight Sargent and commander and they learned our names.
The harder you reach for a justification, the more ridiculous it sounds. How do you "sort cadets" without knowing their names?
As cadets came out of inprocessing, they were put into a line according to gender, and then Flight Staff would come and get the cadets. Some cadets would start goofing off and they would have to be put in line.
BTW, I'm not reaching for a justification. I don't care less if a cadet is called Doolie or Basic or Cadet or Whatever. These tales were from a year ago, when I was only a C/TSGT., so they might be less then accurate.
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 06, 2010, 10:12:02 PM
As cadets came out of inprocessing, they were put into a line according to gender, and then Flight Staff would come and get the cadets. Some cadets would start goofing off and they would have to be put in line.
That's easy. "At ease" with the proper inflection and volume is all that was needed.
Quote from: davidsinn on September 06, 2010, 10:33:47 PM
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 06, 2010, 10:12:02 PM
As cadets came out of inprocessing, they were put into a line according to gender, and then Flight Staff would come and get the cadets. Some cadets would start goofing off and they would have to be put in line.
That's easy. "At ease" with the proper inflection and volume is all that was needed.
Cadets, you are at attention/parade rest.
Cadets, at ease.
Cadets, Military Bearing.
Which one of those needs to have doolie inserted?
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 06, 2010, 08:53:29 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 06, 2010, 05:32:41 PM
Quote from: Fly Boy on September 06, 2010, 05:23:13 PM
The only time I remember being called a Doolie was during inproscessing. The staff didn't know our names at the time. After that I was almost always called by my last name.
I feel that it is only offensive if you make it offensive. I wouldn't give a care what they called me as long as I knew that I wasn't receiving "special treatment" (my definition of hazing).
my 2 cents
How could they not know your name? It's right there on your chest for all to see.
The cadets who called the Basics "Doolie" were sorting the cadets into their flights, They saw alot of cadets and didn't really care to say names. After that we were introduced to the flight Sergeant and commander and they learned our names.
*grumble grumble*
Fix'd
In the tradition of the Air force, we call civilian members between the age of 12 and 18-21 Cadets. They are no more the same as cadets at USAFA or USMA. In the same vein we call new cadets at their first encampment Doolies. Almost all basic encampments disregard a Cadet's CAP rank while attending as a first time attendee, therefore we do not recognize earned rank at the Basic Encampment. Since all first time attendees are rankless, they may be addressed as Doolies as a sign of recognition and respect for our Beloved Parent, the USAF. It's a heritage thing and almost all cadets do enjoy it and expect it. It is probably one of the least insulting names they will be called at encampment.. If you disagree, you haven't been really involved in Basic Encampments..
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 03:17:59 AM
In the tradition of the Air force, we call civilian members between the age of 12 and 18-21 Cadets. They are no more the same as cadets at USAFA or USMA. In the same vein we call new cadets at their first encampment Doolies. Almost all basic encampments disregard a Cadet's CAP rank while attending as a first time attendee, therefore we do not recognize earned rank at the Basic Encampment. Since all first time attendees are rankless, they may be addressed as Doolies as a sign of recognition and respect for our Beloved Parent, the USAF. It's a heritage thing and almost all cadets do enjoy it and expect it. It is probably one of the least insulting names they will be called at encampment.. If you disagree, you haven't been really involved in Basic Encampments..
I disgree.
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 03:17:59 AM
...one of the least insulting names they will be called at encampment.. If you disagree, you haven't been really involved in Basic Encampments..
What, exactly, are the more insulting names your cadets are being called at their basic encampment? What specific training objective(s) is/are being met by insulting 12-18 year old young people?
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 03:17:59 AM
In the tradition of the Air force, we call civilian members between the age of 12 and 18-21 Cadets. They are no more the same as cadets at USAFA or USMA. In the same vein we call new cadets at their first encampment Doolies. Almost all basic encampments disregard a Cadet's CAP rank while attending as a first time attendee, therefore we do not recognize earned rank at the Basic Encampment. Since all first time attendees are rankless, they may be addressed as Doolies as a sign of recognition and respect for our Beloved Parent, the USAF. It's a heritage thing and almost all cadets do enjoy it and expect it. It is probably one of the least insulting names they will be called at encampment.. If you disagree, you haven't been really involved in Basic Encampments..
I guess it's time to take off my encampment ribbon with 4 bronze clasps. Time to tell some other folks with some silver clasps the same. I can't believe that was posted by a Senior Member.
From the same article you cited:
QuoteBetter Days for Doolies - TIME
Better Days for Doolies
Friday, Jan. 19, 1962
When a "doolie," a first-year man at the U.S. Air Force Academy, is braced by an upperclassman, he sucks in his gut, throws out his chest and brays: "Sir, a doolie is that insignificant whose rank is measured in negative units, one whose potential for learning is unlimited." At meals he sits at attention and lifts his fork from plate to mouth in the rectangular movement of a robot; he shouts his response when asked a question. Until not so long ago, when entering his dormitory, he had to rasp in intercom fashion: "Sir, Air Force Academy jet 201K turning base, three green."*
The new Air Academy began all this business six years ago by grafting its own lingo on a century-old tradition at West Point and Annapolis. It is not quite hazing; an upperclassman has to ask a doolie's permission to touch him, even to straighten his tie. But if the official term for the custom is only "harassment," it still licenses upperclassmen to make life miserable for new men on the theory that "weak sisters" will quit.
Eating at Ease. The doolies near Colorado Springs are about to win a measure of relief: they will soon begin—sitting at ease during meals. The change was the latest in a series of reforms by Academy Superintendent William S. Stone. A modern major general. Stone thinks that harassment does indeed fuel the attrition rate (which averaged 27% for the academy's first three classes), but that it is not necessarily the weak sisters who quit. Says Stone: "A lot of this stuff is sophomoric."
Upperclassmen used to bait doolies all weekend; now doolies may close their doors if they want to be alone. For the first time, doolies regularly visit faculty homes. "They're discovering that an officer is like any other American," says one faculty member. "He has a wife, kids, and weeds in the lawn. We don't just play bridge and get drunk all the time."
Attitude & Altitude. The results already show. By Christmas vacation in 1960, the doolie class of 772 had been reduced by 123, including 75 who quit because they abhorred the academy. By Christmas vacation in 1961, the doolie class of 802 had lost 61 men, including only 32 who left out of distaste.
The academy is not letting doolies off scot-free. To the hectoring question, "Mister, what is your altitude?" they must still recite the laborious answer:
"Sir, my altitude is 7,200 ft. above sea level, and far, far above that of West Point or Annapolis." But they must also memorize, and later teach new doolies, the 1879 thesis of Major General John M. Schofield: "The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment."
*Meaning: Cadet 201K is on the base leg of his final approach; three green cockpit lights signify that his landing gear is down and locked.
Here is a quite from the AFA Wiki:
QuoteDoolie is the original and "official" colloquialism for a fourth class cadet. It comes from the Greek word duolos, meaning slave.
In recent years it has fallen out of favor among cadets, who prefer to use the term smack. The term "Doolie" is generally used only in official Academy literature, and by Academy parents' clubs. Within the Cadet Wing, it only occasionally lives on in a combining form, such as in "Doolie swap", "Doolie knowledge" or "Doolie Day Out".
Should we start calling new cadets Smack?
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 03:17:59 AM
In the tradition of the Air force, we call civilian members between the age of 12 and 18-21 Cadets. They are no more the same as cadets at USAFA or USMA. In the same vein we call new cadets at their first encampment Doolies. Almost all basic encampments disregard a Cadet's CAP rank while attending as a first time attendee, therefore we do not recognize earned rank at the Basic Encampment. Since all first time attendees are rankless, they may be addressed as Doolies as a sign of recognition and respect for our Beloved Parent, the USAF. It's a heritage thing and almost all cadets do enjoy it and expect it. It is probably one of the least insulting names they will be called at encampment.. If you disagree, you haven't been really involved in Basic Encampments..
We also had special names for blacks, orientals, and other ethnic minorities, would you advocate using those terms also? Nowhere in any CAP publication is the term "Doolie" used. But there are several regulations which dictate proper titles based on grade and in the case of Chaplains and Medical Personnel specialty.
Well, it seems the vocal consensus is against tradition, which has always been big in the military and in CAP. I am personally sooo tired of political correctness. If you all had your head out of your third contact point, you would jump up and down about following the Reg's to support your arguement. To attend basic encampment, all cadets must have earned the Curry at least and therefore have earned rank and deserve to be addressed by same. It is against CAP Reg's to temporarily demote a cadet at any time or for him/her to wear any other rank than they have been awarded. For this reason stripping a cadet of all rank or addressing him/her by anything other than their proper rank at basic encampment is against CAP Reg's. It has been done TRADITIONALLY to simulate the experience of attending military boot camp, but it is still against Reg's. So, let's see you all change your encampments regarding wearing of rank by Doolies..
No matter if a cadet earned the Currey last month or is a C/MSgt, at an encampment they are basic Cadets. Prior to the 1990's 52-16, actually 50-16, cadets removed all grade insignia except for cadet staff to indicate they were attending their first encampment. Problems have developed, often out of sight of TACOs when a cadet at their first encampment whose earned rank is C/TSgt or higher tries to use authority over lower grade cadets who are on staff. All cadets attending their first encampment are basic cadets, regardless of earned grade.
And to answer a question someone asked, at my first encampment in 1946, I was called "Doolie". Recently cadets are called Doolies for the first few days until learns their names. I've never heard a cadet complain about being calles a Doolie, only senior members seem to object to that.
I was a cadet and I objected/ still object to Doolies.
Calling a cadet at encampment cadet is not demoting them, and is within the regulations, but please do show me where the only proper address for a cadet is their earned grade, AirAux
We also never called Basic Attendees Basics.
And, when I addressed an individual cadet in my Basic Year as C/SSgt, 2nd Year as a C/MSgt, 3rd Year as a C/CMSgt 1st Sergeant, 4th year as a C/Capt Cadet Commander, or 5th year as a C/Capt StanEval Member, I always called them (grade insignia) Jones.
When addressing a bigger group, it was Cadets.
There simply is no room to use a derogatory term such as doolie, especially at an activity that averages under 1 week long.
Quote from: BillB on September 07, 2010, 02:48:52 PM
I've never heard a cadet complain about being calles a Doolie, only senior members seem to object to that.
So just because black people didn't object to a derogatory term used to describe them in the 40s and 50s it's ok to use that term to describe them? The exact same logic applies.
Quote from: davidsinn on September 07, 2010, 04:07:24 PM
Quote from: BillB on September 07, 2010, 02:48:52 PM
I've never heard a cadet complain about being calles a Doolie, only senior members seem to object to that.
So just because black people didn't object to a derogatory term used to describe them in the 40s and 50s it's ok to use that term to describe them? The exact same logic applies.
Also consider that C/Amn Newbie doesn't have the stones to question superiors most of the time.
"So just because black people didn't object to a derogatory term used to describe them in the 40s and 50s it's ok to use that term to describe them? The exact same logic applies." davidsinn, this isn't the first time you have thrown racism into a discussion when it wasn't an issue to the discussion, but, since you started it again...
The fact that they (black people) use the term themselves would seem to indicate their acceptance to the terminology and perpetuation of same. It's hard to have it both ways. Black people can be racist, but not white people? That makes no sense at all. The amazing thing is that they don't think or realize that they are capable of racism themselves. To have the NAACP, BIG (Blacks in Government) and the Black Miss USA is totally racist and yet we pretend that it's not.. By being forced to accept this nonsense we perpetuate and increase racism all the more. Either we are all human beings OR some of us are more special than others and entitled to our special rules.. No KKK, No NAACP, No White Miss USA, No Black Miss USA, etc, etc..
I can see where this is headed...
We need to either get back on track, or get this one put down.
The original question has been answered, having morphed into a discussion of terminology.
If possible, pulling out the Doolie discussion into it's own thread is the best course, as well as removing some left field posts completely.
In Answer to an above post, we kind of morphed the term basic cadet and cadet into the same thing. What I was referring to, is if one calls a c/A1C a basic at encampment, they have demoted him by doing so. To call all and any cadets, "cadets", is quite all right..
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 05:13:51 PM
In Answer to an above post, we kind of morphed the term basic cadet and cadet into the same thing. What I was referring to, is if one calls a c/A1C a basic at encampment, they have demoted him by doing so. To call all and any cadets, "cadets", is quite all right..
I've never heard anyone call a "Basic Encampment" Cadet as "Basic". Cadet, Airman, C/(Grade), etc have all been used. Basic is not one of them.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 07, 2010, 05:16:56 PM
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 05:13:51 PM
In Answer to an above post, we kind of morphed the term basic cadet and cadet into the same thing. What I was referring to, is if one calls a c/A1C a basic at encampment, they have demoted him by doing so. To call all and any cadets, "cadets", is quite all right..
I've never heard anyone call a "Basic Encampment" Cadet as "Basic". Cadet, Airman, C/(Grade), etc have all been used. Basic is not one of them.
I use it as a classification only. If I am discussing a group that is only comprised of first time attendees I'll call them basics. If I am discussing a single first time attendee I'll call them by rank/name if I know it or simply cadet/name if I don't.
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 04:50:01 PM
"So just because black people didn't object to a derogatory term used to describe them in the 40s and 50s it's ok to use that term to describe them? The exact same logic applies." davidsinn, this isn't the first time you have thrown racism into a discussion when it wasn't an issue to the discussion, but, since you started it again...
The fact that they (black people) use the term themselves would seem to indicate their acceptance to the terminology and perpetuation of same. It's hard to have it both ways. Black people can be racist, but not white people? That makes no sense at all. The amazing thing is that they don't think or realize that they are capable of racism themselves. To have the NAACP, BIG (Blacks in Government) and the Black Miss USA is totally racist and yet we pretend that it's not.. By being forced to accept this nonsense we perpetuate and increase racism all the more. Either we are all human beings OR some of us are more special than others and entitled to our special rules.. No KKK, No NAACP, No White Miss USA, No Black Miss USA, etc, etc..
Let me try and explain a little better. I will not use the term I was alluding to. I do not appreciate it when others do. We do not use that term today even though it was a common term in the past because of its abhorrent derogatory nature used to remind a people "of their place" in society.
The term doolie, as was pointed out above, is descended from the Greek word for slave and is also used to remind a class of people of "their place." It has no place in an organization that strives to help people better themselves.
I was not trying to drag racism into the discussion but was making my point very strongly that the same justifications being brought up in this thread to defend the term doolie is the same justification that allowed the other term to survive as it did. Neither have a place in society.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 07, 2010, 05:16:56 PM
I've never heard anyone call a "Basic Encampment" Cadet as "Basic". Cadet, Airman, C/(Grade), etc have all been used. Basic is not one of them.
California Wing has used the term "basic" to describe non-staff cadets since their current encampment model was developed some time ago. They incorporated the term in their venerable Encampment Training Manual, which has in turn influenced encampments in several other wings.
Other wings also use the term, which may or may not trace lineage to the CAWG model.
BTW, CAWG selected the term because we believed very strongly that perjorative terms commonly in use were inappropriate for a CAP encampment. And I believe that our current Core Value of Respect prohibits the use of terms like doolie, smack, plebe, boot, etc.
Ned Lee
Ned Lee
CAWG Encampment Enthusiast
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 05:13:51 PM
In Answer to an above post, we kind of morphed the term basic cadet and cadet into the same thing. What I was referring to, is if one calls a C/A1C a basic at encampment, they have demoted him by doing so. To call all and any cadets, "cadets", is quite all right..
Fix'd
My Answer was in response to BillB's, "No matter if a cadet earned the Currey last month or is a C/MSgt, at an encampment they are basic Cadets." However, since then, Ned Lee noted, "California Wing has used the term "basic" to describe non-staff cadets since their current encampment model was developed some time ago. They incorporated the term in their venerable Encampment Training Manual, which has in turn influenced encampments in several other wings.
Other wings also use the term, which may or may not trace lineage to the CAWG model.
BTW, CAWG selected the term because we believed very strongly that perjorative terms commonly in use were inappropriate for a CAP encampment. And I believe that our current Core Value of Respect prohibits the use of terms like doolie, smack, plebe, boot, etc."
Which, brings me back to the fact that a C/A1C is no more a "Basic" than he is a "Doolie" and he should either be addressed as Cadet or Cadet First Class and not "Basic" for the term of the encampment. To call a cadet "Basic" is in fact demoting him for the time he is at encampment and against CAP Reg's.
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 08:01:07 PMWhich, brings me back to the fact that a C/A1C is no more a "Basic" than he is a "Doolie" and he should either be addressed as Cadet or Cadet Airman First Class and not "Basic" for the term of the encampment. To call a cadet "Basic" is in fact demoting him for the time he is at encampment and against CAP Reg's.
Fix'd
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 08:01:07 PM
To call a cadet "Basic" is in fact demoting him for the time he is at encampment and against CAP Reg's.
If "basic" were a grade, I'd have to agree with you.
But it isn't of course. It is simply describing their role at encampment. To suggest that that is somehow against regulations is just silly.
Are you suggesting I cannot address a flight commander by their title, either?
As in "Hey, flight commander, do you have a minute to go over the schedule with me?"
If a cadet MSgt is serving as a first sergeant, should I be disciplined for uttering the phrase "First Sergeant, come here please?"
I guess we could never call anyone a "flight sergeant" without risk of a 2b.
Sigh.
(And BTW, we do call them "cadets" as well when there is no risk of ambiguity or confusion. Imagine that!)
The difference between "basic" and things like "smack" or "doolie" is that those terms are disrespectful and pejorative. "Basic" was selected precisely because it is neither of those things.
But I bet you really knew that. But as a lawyer I enjoy specious arguments as much as the next guy.
Ned Lee
Well, last time I checked, Cadet Airman BASIC is a grade, so, I have a hard time agreeing with your reasoning.. At least according to my CAPM 52-16..
Quote from: CAPR 52-16 1-OCT-2006
Figure 2-3. Abbreviations for Cadet Grades.
Cadet Airman Basic C/AB Cadet Second Lieutenant C/2d Lt
Cadet Airman C/Amn Cadet First Lieutenant C/1st Lt
Cadet Airman First Class C/A1C Cadet Captain C/Capt
Cadet Senior Airman C/SrA Cadet Major C/Maj
Cadet Staff Sergeant C/SSgt Cadet Lieutenant Colonel C/Lt Col
Cadet Technical Sergeant C/TSgt Cadet Colonel C/Col
Cadet Master Sergeant C/MSgt
Cadet Senior Master Sergeant C/SMSgt
Cadet Chief Master Sergeant C/CMSgt
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 08:44:02 PM
Well, last time I checked, Cadet Airman BASIC is a grade, so, I have a hard time agreeing with your reasoning.. At least according to my CAPM 52-16..
Seems right.
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 08:44:02 PM
Well, last time I checked, Cadet Airman BASIC is a grade, so, I have a hard time agreeing with your reasoning.. At least according to my CAPM 52-16..
Nice sharpshooting there, son. Now try to respond to the actual reasoning and explain why "doolie", "smack," or "plebe" are appropriate and respectful forms of address.
And not inconsistent with our Core Value of Respect.
(I'll stand by . . . )
In the meantime, let me respond to the off-topic point:
Yes, "Cadet airman basic" is a grade. (Of course, they are not found at encampment which requires at least a Curry to attend.)
But "basic" standing alone is not a grade, and no more incorrect than using a phrase like "soldiers, sailors, and airmen." When presidents use that phrase, they are describing functional catagories of folks, and not delivering a deliberate insult to USAF personnel in the grade of E-4 and above.
Thus I agree that addressing any cadet at encampment by the phrase "Cadet Airman Basic" would be incorrect. (Assuming compliance with the regulation and no actual C/ABs are present.)
But I have never heard anyone at a CAWG encampment address a cadets as a "cadet airmen basics". If for no other reason than that is a whole lot of syllables.
And there is no grade in CAP that is addressed by the term "basic" in any event. The term of address for a C/AB is "airman." (Look it up.)
To say that a cadet airman is insulted by referring them to as a "basic" makes as much sense as them taking offense if I ask to speak with them privately.
"Sir, I am not a private! I am insulted by the comparison to a US Army soldier."
But since this is a thread about Florida, let's try to stay on topic.
Please explain how calling a cadet at encampment a "doolie" complies with our Core Values, given the derivation of the term.
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on September 07, 2010, 03:31:39 AM
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 03:17:59 AM
...one of the least insulting names they will be called at encampment.. If you disagree, you haven't been really involved in Basic Encampments..
What, exactly, are the more insulting names your cadets are being called at their basic encampment? What specific training objective(s) is/are being met by insulting 12-18 year old young people?
I am still curious as to what even more insulting names are being used.
Sir, (Ned) are the cadets refered to as "basic Smith" or do you mean as a term in general?
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 07, 2010, 10:44:24 PM
Sir, (Ned) are the cadets refered to as "basic Smith" or do you mean as a term in general?
I can't speak for the Colonel but what I have seen and done is this:
If I have C/Amn Smith and C/A1C Jones I call them by Airmen Smith and Jones. "Amn Smith and Jones go stand over with that group of basics please."
Quote from: AirAux on September 07, 2010, 08:44:02 PM
Well, last time I checked, Cadet Airman BASIC is a grade, so, I have a hard time agreeing with your reasoning.. At least according to my CAPM 52-16..
You're going to hurt yourself stretching this hard...
"Doolie" is insulting and meant to put a cadet in their "place". It is borderline hazing.
"Basic Cadet" is a category, not a grade, and does not suffer from the above.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 07, 2010, 10:44:24 PM
Sir, (Ned) are the cadets refered to as "basic Smith" or do you mean as a term in general?
They are addressed as "Cadet Smith". Basics are what we call the cadets who are at the encampment for the first time.
It is a category. The other categories are Line Staff, Support Staff and Seniors.
Quote from: PHall on September 08, 2010, 02:48:01 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 07, 2010, 10:44:24 PM
Sir, (Ned) are the cadets refered to as "basic Smith" or do you mean as a term in general?
They are addressed as "Cadet Smith". Basics are what we call the cadets who are at the encampment for the first time.
It is a category. The other categories are Line Staff, Support Staff and Seniors.
For clarification, think of it this way....
Encampment commander walks out of his office and asks the training section where his troops are:
"Sir, CLS is on the O course, Rocketry is in the classroom, and the basics are at the firing range."
Think of the scene in stripes where CPT Stillman asks his clerk where his people are, and the clerk rattles off the locations of his three platoons. Sgt Hulka wasn't the only one on the O course, he meant Sgt Hulka's platoon.We use the same type of terminology as CAWG, though I don't know that we got it from them as we've been using it at least 27 years. It's a description, not an identifier or grade, if you will. You wouldn't say "Basic Snuffy, who is your flight commander?" But you could say "Someone go ask that group of basics where they're supposed to be."
So, who else is applying for FLWG Winter Encampment Staff?
I myself am throwing around the idea.
Quote from: DBlair on September 08, 2010, 11:19:40 PM
So, who else is applying for FLWG Winter Encampment Staff?
I myself am throwing around the idea.
Me!
Quote from: Slim on September 08, 2010, 06:49:15 AM
It's a description, not an identifier or grade, if you will. You wouldn't say "Basic Snuffy, who is your flight commander?" But you could say "Someone go ask that group of basics where they're supposed to be."
BAM.This is it.
The description "basic" was introduced to GAWG this year, I believe. Trying to clean up encampment, avoid hazing, etc.
I was addressed by staff cadets as either Chief or Radz*.
"Radz, you're second element leader."
"Chief Radz is going to show you how to mop." (Only Chief when I got to demonstrate something ;D)
Actually, I used the term
basic to describe myself more than staff used it. Essentially making sure the 12 year old C/Snuffy isn't scared that a C/CMSgt is in the same room as a first time encampment attendee.
"Calm down Snuffy, I'm a basic cadet here just like you. Please stop calling me sir. It's Radz, and I don't bite."
I know the deadline has just passed but I have been trying all day to upload my application (Sr.) and my daughters......... Anyone have problems? I have made sure the files are named correctly, what else can I try?
We did send in trouble inquiries, so I am hoping that covers that but any help now would be appreciated!!!
Email the Encampment Commander and explain that you're unable to upload the application and will snail mail it. I saw his phone number and mailing address somewhere, but you might ask him for the address to mail the applicaions to. His email is listed on the Winter encampment web page.
Quote from: DBlair on September 08, 2010, 11:19:40 PM
So, who else is applying for FLWG Winter Encampment Staff?
I myself am throwing around the idea.
I applied for Flight TACO as a primary; Squadron TACO and Administrative Officer as secondaries, which I thought there was only a Flight TACO, but Squadron TACO was in the application so I thought why not.
Does anyone by any chance know when they will be posting the Senior staff roster for the winter encampment?
Ok...I don't know if this was answered or not but I am curious...what do you call your cadets who are first time attendees at an encampment to distinguish them from the cadet staff when referring to them in general? Could the term "Trainee" be acceptable?
Well, since nobody likes the term "Doolies", let's try "Zoomies". The Zoomie News is the news of the day with the USAFA Graduate Association, so it can't be all bad, right??
Does that mean the Florida Encampment daily newsletter will be changed from "Daily Doolie" to "Daily Zoomie"? "Daily Doolie" has been in use for 60 years
Quote from: caphornbuckle on September 17, 2010, 08:03:34 AM
Ok...I don't know if this was answered or not but I am curious...what do you call your cadets who are first time attendees at an encampment to distinguish them from the cadet staff when referring to them in general? Could the term "Trainee" be acceptable?
Basic...
...cadets...
Or simply "cadets".
"Trainees" isn't necessarily appropriate, either as many are far beyond "trainee" status, and all come into the encampment with at least their Curry.
Quote from: caphornbuckle on September 17, 2010, 08:03:34 AM
Ok...I don't know if this was answered or not but I am curious...what do you call your cadets who are first time attendees at an encampment to distinguish them from the cadet staff when referring to them in general? Could the term "Trainee" be acceptable?
"Cadets/Basics" vs "Cadet Staff/Staff"
If you think about the term Doolies being related to one of, if not the most famous aviator ever, Jimmie Doolittle, perhaps Doolie is term of love and tolerance and not demeaning after all. If you have ever looked at the Bronze statute of Jimmie at the Academy, you will see that some unknown cadet or cadets routinely polish a certain portion of his statute with great regularity. This is done out of respect for the man and to honor him and to recall that he was a black sheep at one time before he was proven right. So, I like to think of Doolie as a term of tolerance for a young, unproven, enthusiastic, proud, airman (or airwoman??).
Quote from: AirAux on September 17, 2010, 03:07:03 PM
If you think about the term Doolies being related to one of, if not the most famous aviator ever, Jimmie Doolittle, perhaps Doolie is term of love and tolerance and not demeaning after all. If you have ever looked at the Bronze statute of Jimmie at the Academy, you will see that some unknown cadet or cadets routinely polish a certain portion of his statute with great regularity. This is done out of respect for the man and to honor him and to recall that he was a black sheep at one time before he was proven right. So, I like to think of Doolie as a term of tolerance for a young, unproven, enthusiastic, proud, airman (or airwoman??).
We've been over this. Doolie = Slave, not Doolittle. The intent was to degrade not associate with an aviator.
Quote"Sir, a doolie is that insignificant whose rank is measured in negative units, one whose potential for learning is unlimited."
And you are not big enough to upgrade your thinking?? I have never ever heard the word slave used at USAFA. Perhaps you have some inside knowledge that I don't. I like my new definition of Doolie and will use it accordingly because I think it fits very well with the intents and purposes I defined it with.
Quote from: AirAux on September 17, 2010, 03:47:03 PM
And you are not big enough to upgrade your thinking?? I have never ever heard the word slave used at USAFA. Perhaps you have some inside knowledge that I don't. I like my new definition of Doolie and will use it accordingly because I think it fits very well with the intents and purposes I defined it with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity
It doesn't change the fact that Superman didn't originally have the power of flight, nor does it make the term less condescending and inappropriate.
Quote from: AirAux on September 17, 2010, 03:47:03 PM
And you are not big enough to upgrade your thinking?? I have never ever heard the word slave used at USAFA. Perhaps you have some inside knowledge that I don't. I like my new definition of Doolie and will use it accordingly because I think it fits very well with the intents and purposes I defined it with.
That's because Doolie means slave! Why not just stick to normal terms instead of this sophomoric crap with convoluted thinking? Why not call all the new cadets Mitchees? You know, after Mitchell? Or Spaazes, after Spaatz? Great logic you have!
Just remember, I love you, my little Doolies..
And now:::
Dictionary.com:
DOOLIE:
–noun Slang .
a first-year cadet in the U.S. Air Force Academy.
Sorry, It doesn't mention slave anywhere.. And since I know very few cadets that don't want to be first-year cadets at USAFA, I win..YAY.. and I will still cherish and use my definition of Doolie as often and timely as I can.. Let's hear if for Jimmie Doolittle and all of the Doolies that followed.. Remember my Doolies, I love you all and will help you reach your dreams and goals.. It's my job and I love it..
I don't care what euphemisms are applied to it, the spirit and intent at which is most commonly used is pretty much intended of some form of degradation or segregation.
With that, no amount of icing is going to change it.
Quote from: AirAux on September 17, 2010, 04:14:55 PM
And now:::
Dictionary.com:
DOOLIE:
–noun Slang .
a first-year cadet in the U.S. Air Force Academy.
Nice try. There are plenty of words in the English language which have an intended meaning and are used otherwise.
Dictionary.com
SLANG:
–noun
1.very informal usage in vocabulary and idiom that is characteristically more metaphorical, playful, elliptical, vivid, and ephemeral than ordinary language, as Hit the road.
2. (in English and some other languages)
speech and writing characterized by the use of vulgar and socially taboo vocabulary and idiomatic expressions.3. the jargon of a particular class, profession, etc.
4. the special vocabulary of thieves, vagabonds, etc.; argot.
As usual, Eclipse, you are right.. Anyhow, I have been thinking, I guess we should really call them "Wannabe Doolies" since they haven't reached the ranks of the USAFA yet. Or would the correct term be "Doolie Wannabes"? You know this will fit right in with our military wannabes... Hummm, just a thought...
Thanks to AirAux and others for running a solid encampment program in FLWG that would be the envy of many other wings.
I suspect there will be some very minor terminology changes for next year, but the great training will continue in FLWG.
Ned Lee
National CP Guy
(Makes note to confer with SER and FLWG DCPs re CAP Core Value of Respect . . . . 8))
Ned, if any of my cadets can get through the application process it will be a wonder. So far, 6 cadets and 5 seniors have not been able to get their applications in. Oh, on another good point, be sure and have them ask a question regarding SMART goals and then allowing three lines in the question field to answer. Or the really neat trick is to have the question field grow with the size of the answer so the cadet types a 2 page answer and then when he prints it, it prints the first three lines.. Hehe.. neat trick.. Talk about frustrating, BUT at least nobody called them doolies, or slaves or segregated them.. NO, they just put impossible obstacles in their way.. Perhaps you haven't had the irate parent call you yet.. So , while you are working on the Core Values, don't forget application design..
Quote from: AirAux on September 17, 2010, 07:38:26 PM
Ned, if any of my cadets can get through the application process it will be a wonder. So far, 6 cadets and 5 seniors have not been able to get their applications in. Oh, on another good point, be sure and have them ask a question regarding SMART goals and then allowing three lines in the question field to answer. Or the really neat trick is to have the question field grow with the size of the answer so the cadet types a 2 page answer and then when he prints it, it prints the first three lines.. Hehe.. neat trick.. Talk about frustrating, BUT at least nobody called them doolies, or slaves or segregated them.. NO, they just put impossible obstacles in their way.. Perhaps you haven't had the irate parent call you yet.. So , while you are working on the Core Values, don't forget application design..
You know, it's called open Microsoft Word/Notepad/Wordpad/Etc, write out the answer, print, and attach to the application.
No, actually, I and perhaps thousands of others don't know that so perhaps the instructions could be better prepared for those that are attempting to complete the applications, like 12 year old cadets and 36 year old moms and 72 year old grandfathers.. Sorry we aren't all as sharp as you.. or as young, and good looking..
Quote from: AirAux on September 17, 2010, 08:13:08 PM
No, actually, I and perhaps thousands of others don't know that so perhaps the instructions could be better prepared for those that are attempting to complete the applications, like 12 year old cadets and 36 year old moms and 72 year old grandfathers.. Sorry we aren't all as sharp as you.. or as young, and good looking..
If they are using the computer to fill out the app, somehow I doubt that. Sure, it takes that extra twitch of the brain to get the idea, but come on! They want to be on staff, where they will definitely have to make some decisions on the spot (like drill for instance), and if this is a stumbling block, maybe they shouldn't be applying for staff at encampment.
Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I guess if everyone does not meet up to your standards they are not wanted or needed. You have pretty well classified yourself..
What the meaning of "Doolie" depends on how the receiver interprets it, the cadet being addressed as doolie may not take it offensive. There is also a flaw to using the term, as not all cadets will interpret the word the same way, therefore some cadets will take it the wrong way and should not be used too often. I don't see it offensive, personally. Also, slang isn't always vulgar or inappropriate.
Quote from: vorter on September 26, 2010, 11:35:41 PM
What the meaning of "Doolie" depends on how the receiver interprets it, the cadet being addressed as doolie may not take it offensive. There is also a flaw to using the term, as not all cadets will interpret the word the same way, therefore some cadets will take it the wrong way and should not be used too often. I don't see it offensive, personally. Also, slang isn't always vulgar or inappropriate.
You need to take RST.
Quote from: davidsinn on September 26, 2010, 11:38:56 PM
Quote from: vorter on September 26, 2010, 11:35:41 PM
What the meaning of "Doolie" depends on how the receiver interprets it, the cadet being addressed as doolie may not take it offensive. There is also a flaw to using the term, as not all cadets will interpret the word the same way, therefore some cadets will take it the wrong way and should not be used too often. I don't see it offensive, personally. Also, slang isn't always vulgar or inappropriate.
You need to take RST.
I did not say I support the term, and I wouldnt use the term either. I simply don't see the term as "demeaning". I'm sure others will disagree though. As this is of much debate.
Okay, so if I called you a slave, you wouldn't be offended?
i.e. Slave Hyeung, bring me some grapes from the chow hall!
Now, assuming that I managed to pull this off with a straight face, wouldn't you be offended if we had never met and I started ordering you to do this in such a manner?
How about this order, just so it's realistic.
Slave Hyeung, go change into PT gear and get back here on the double!
Yeah, I suppose since everyone isn't offended by being called a slave, it's acceptable...
The one who determines whether it's demeaning is the one who is being demeaned.
Quote from: MSG Mac on September 27, 2010, 12:17:08 AM
The one who determines whether it's demeaning is the one who is being demeaned.
Not necessarily, and demeaning someone or a group is not necessarily a 1-1 situation.
I can think of a few fairly offensive terms that some people use in a friendly way between themselves, but that doesn't make them any less offensive or inappropriate, especially when you consider that our program espouses respect among peers and throughout the organization.
Well, i mean its just how you take it...
I've applied for Squadron 1st Sgt, Flight Sergeant, and Public Affairs. I met the Deputy Commander (Captain Hanes) at Alabama WESS and he seems to be a pretty good guy. I'm really hoping this doesn't turn out to be as bad at GAWG 2010
Some of us are more optimistic and positive ;) , but I hope that FLWG is better.
Just don't do what our Chief did. (Don't entertain the notion of attempting to date a basic, either...)
Quote from: DakRadz on October 14, 2010, 12:33:19 AM
Some of us are more optimistic and positive ;) , but I hope that FLWG is better.
Just don't do what our Chief did. (Don't entertain the notion of attempting to date a basic, either...)
That's true, it really couldn't be worse then GAWG 201 could it?
Chief was Chief, which was cool sometimes, but at most times.... ehhhhh.
Quote from: Karatian on October 14, 2010, 12:31:33 AM
I met the Deputy Commander (Captain Hanes) at Alabama WESS and he seems to be a pretty good guy.
...I hear the Commandant of Cadets is a good guy as well. lol ;)
Quote from: DBlair on October 14, 2010, 12:38:18 AM
...I hear the Commandant of Cadets is a pretty nice guy as well. lol ;)
So i've heard. :angel:
But I heard he's on Group Staff which means he doesn't do anything with cadets. And as a cadet he never got up to the Spaatz.
Quote from: BillB on October 14, 2010, 10:26:08 AM
But I heard he's on Group Staff which means he doesn't do anything with cadets. And as a cadet he never got up to the Spaatz.
LOL! Ouch! :D
Yea, I heard he was a C/Lt Col at 16 and then (like so many do) got too comfortable at the top of the cadet food chain and distracted on Wing Staff, advising/commanding (fixing) several units, staffing NCSAs, competing on DT, and so much more before going off to college and working. This is part of why he constantly pushes Cadets not to stagnate at a certain point.
As for being on Group Staff, this is indeed true as he is the Cadet Programs Officer (former unit Leadership Officer) and works regularly with Cadets in a wide variety of capacities throughout the wing, not to mention assisting/visiting local units/activities and personally running a wide variety of Cadet activities/programs... if there is a Cadet activity going on in his Group, he is most likely involved.
...or, so I've heard. :)