CAP and Employers????

[usafcap1]

How does one tell their employer that they are in CAP and that maybe call out for an emergency? ie Down plane, HLS, Counter drug, missing persons and so on and so forth.




~ Thanks

[manfredvonrichthofen]

With tact... Here in Indiana there is a preservation in law about discriminating against volunteers like us participating in missions. And that we can call our employer before our shift and inform them of what is going on and no repercussions can come from it. Check about your state.

[Spaceman3750]

Hey [Boss], I wanted to let you know that I'm a member of a group called the Civil Air Patrol. One of the things I do is lead search and rescue ground teams. Sometimes, I might get a call to go look for a downed aircraft or missing person during work hours. Do you have any issues with me taking accrued time off if this happens?

[Eclipse]

Have your involvement on your resume and be realistic.

[Private Investigator]

With tact... Here in Indiana there is a preservation in law about discriminating against volunteers like us participating in missions. And that we can call our employer before our shift and inform them of what is going on and no repercussions can come from it. Check about your state.

+1 varies with states.

Also big difference between civil service employee and the private sector. Before I retired as a policeman I could do a mission and they would, for example, give me two vacation days and a floating holiday. In the private sector I get zero, nada, nothing. So a mission has to be on my off day.   

[usafcap1]

Would saying that its like being a volunteer firefighter work?

[754837]

Hey [Boss], I wanted to let you know that I'm a member of a group called the Civil Air Patrol. One of the things I do is lead search and rescue ground teams. Sometimes, I might get a call to go look for a downed aircraft or missing person during work hours. Do you have any issues with me taking accrued time off if this happens?

Nicely done!

[RADIOMAN015]

Hey [Boss], I wanted to let you know that I'm a member of a group called the Civil Air Patrol. One of the things I do is lead search and rescue ground teams. Sometimes, I might get a call to go look for a downed aircraft or missing person during work hours. Do you have any issues with me taking accrued time off if this happens?

Hmm, and the answer,....... Mr Caparoo before we hired you didn't we ask you the question about anything that would interfere with you being on the job everyday you are scheduled and on time    As you are aware we have a small staff and at this point I'm not sure whether we would be able to release you for this.....

OR for those that put it on their resumes --  ... Oh boy, we got a small staff -- is this guy going to productive for us or does he really want to be a ricky rescue person   Perhaps we should interview others.

Remember -- employers hire employees with an expectation that they will be at work as required giving their very best for the employers benefit. ANYTHING that might interfere with that is going to be evaluated and decisions made.

Another example I'm personally aware of.   Small town has a volunteer call fire department (with one full time FF/EMT and a FT Chief/EMT)  Some of the highway department employees are on the VFD.  A call comes in and the HD employees respond to the fire/vehicle accident/medical assist call.   Does the supervisor put them on vacation time, excused absence, or what   IF there's a lot of calls the HD falls behind on their work.   Isn't this in fact resulting in a paid fire department IF the decision is made to let them continue to be paid or at the very least is impacting the highway department's ability to gets its' work done

RM

       

[Flying Pig]

Im noticing from your ribbons that your an Airman?  You get called out for CD and HLS missions?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Seriously, check the laws where you are at.

RM, I wouldn't tell them until you have the job. You don't have to at all. When you are hired bring up the law if it applies to your locale, and just have it ready. If they tell you that you won't be needed then, whip that out, and ask them of they would like to reconsider. If not thn yay, you can have some fun phone calls with the bbb, and local officials about that company and their hiring ethics...

In reality, I bet most are willing to work with you, I am yet to find one that says anything other than, please, if there is something real world, go for it. One even said I would be rather #+**>£ if someone wasn't able to save one of my loved ones because they couldn't get off work to go search for them.

[Spaceman3750]

Hey [Boss], I wanted to let you know that I'm a member of a group called the Civil Air Patrol. One of the things I do is lead search and rescue ground teams. Sometimes, I might get a call to go look for a downed aircraft or missing person during work hours. Do you have any issues with me taking accrued time off if this happens?

Hmm, and the answer,....... Mr Caparoo before we hired you didn't we ask you the question about anything that would interfere with you being on the job everyday you are scheduled and on time    As you are aware we have a small staff and at this point I'm not sure whether we would be able to release you for this.....

OR for those that put it on their resumes --  ... Oh boy, we got a small staff -- is this guy going to productive for us or does he really want to be a ricky rescue person   Perhaps we should interview others.

Remember -- employers hire employees with an expectation that they will be at work as required giving their very best for the employers benefit. ANYTHING that might interfere with that is going to be evaluated and decisions made.

Another example I'm personally aware of.   Small town has a volunteer call fire department (with one full time FF/EMT and a FT Chief/EMT)  Some of the highway department employees are on the VFD.  A call comes in and the HD employees respond to the fire/vehicle accident/medical assist call.   Does the supervisor put them on vacation time, excused absence, or what   IF there's a lot of calls the HD falls behind on their work.   Isn't this in fact resulting in a paid fire department IF the decision is made to let them continue to be paid or at the very least is impacting the highway department's ability to gets its' work done

RM

     

RM, I have successfully had that same conversation with three bosses in the last three years (there's been lots of changes where I work lately). None of them minded, just text them when I'm leaving and put in the time off request when I get back.

Then again, I live in the real world where people recognize that stuff happens.

[johnnyb47]

I JUST had this conversation with a prospective employer during an interview.
My volunteer work is on my resume.
It probably helped that the interviewer was former military but he liked what I had to tell him about my CAP activities.
I was offered the job.

[Eclipse]

We all know that the last thing an employer is looking for is someone who goes above and beyond the bare minimum of life, and who is anchored to
the community through their own feelings of personal responsibility and commitment to public service.

I mean seriously, what kind of employee is that going to produce?

[arajca]

Once upon a time, when I was a vol. FF, my company decided that volunteer fire fighters would be prohibited from leaving work to respond to calls. Never mind the fact that most of the calls were AT the resort where I work and the FD was originally a dept. of the resort. The fire chief told all of us to follow policy while he met with upper management.

Once he starting laying out the costs and tax increases to staff two fire stations 24/7 with career fire fighters instead of volunteers, estimating a 400% tax increase, the resort decided that a few volunteers leaving work for an hour or two every couple weeks was a much better deal and rescinded the policy.

[JeffDG]

RM, I have successfully had that same conversation with three bosses in the last three years (there's been lots of changes where I work lately). None of them minded, just text them when I'm leaving and put in the time off request when I get back.

Then again, I live in the real world where people recognize that stuff happens.

No law, regardless of how well intentioned, can take the place of an open and honest relationship with your employer.

My boss knows that I might have to drop everything and go.  She also knows I won't yank her chain with little stuff, and that if I do play that card, it's important.

TN does have a protection law, but I think it would be insulting of me to even mention it to her. 

[Spaceman3750]

RM, I have successfully had that same conversation with three bosses in the last three years (there's been lots of changes where I work lately). None of them minded, just text them when I'm leaving and put in the time off request when I get back.

Then again, I live in the real world where people recognize that stuff happens.

No law, regardless of how well intentioned, can take the place of an open and honest relationship with your employer.

My boss knows that I might have to drop everything and go.  She also knows I won't yank her chain with little stuff, and that if I do play that card, it's important.

TN does have a protection law, but I think it would be insulting of me to even mention it to her.

Agree 100%. I don't need to destroy a good working relationship with my boss by pulling a protection law card. If they need me, they need me. I don't leave for ELT searches that has a 99% chance of being in a hanger. I'll only leave for missing person searches/DR.

[John Bryan]

With tact... Here in Indiana there is a preservation in law about discriminating against volunteers like us participating in missions. And that we can call our employer before our shift and inform them of what is going on and no repercussions can come from it. Check about your state.

One small point about the Indiana law. There is no enforcement in the law. In other words you can't call the Indiana Dept of Labor and ask them to do anything about it. If you get punished in violation of the law you must hire and pay for a lawyer and fight it on your own. Even then it is unclear what happens to an employer to violates this law.  This is not just for CAP but for other volunteers in public safety in Indiana.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

While there is no enforcement in place for the law, it is still a law, and most people once they see the law written they tend to change their attitude.

I wouldn't go waiving it in their face unless the job is that vital, but then again if he job is that vital, I don't know that I would jeopardize it. But at the same time, what is a life worth to you? Is it really worth $10.00 an hour?

EDIT: I am pretty sure I worded that badly...
A life should be worth more than $10.00 an hour.

[Eclipse]

I'd say that for the most part the laws are in place to provide some legitimacy and validation of CAP being "real" - most employment law is only as good
as people are willing to take it as far as lawsuits, etc.

But if you're in a position where your boss is questioning CAP legitimacy, you can pull out the state protection law and show him
that the legislature has heard of CAP, even if he hasn't.

I'm sure I've said this before, but when I was working in the corporate IT-world, job transition was a pretty much the norm every 3-4 years or so, especially in the '90's and early 2000's during the dot com boom / bust, so while for some people an interview was something to be feared and avoided, I saw them as opportunities for both sides to sell the other on the idea, and make sure it was a fit for both.

"I see you list this 'Civil Air Patrol', here, and you seem to be pretty active, is this like the military?  Can you be deployed?"

"CAP is a military auxiliary of the Air Force, we wear similar uniforms, our structure is basically the same, but our duties are
all volunteer, and only in the continental US. I'm involved in Search and Rescue and training cadets.  Almost all of my
duty and training days are on nights and weekends, or I would take PTO time for the longer stuff.  On the rare occasion
that something big enough occurs to need me during the week with short notice, you'll likely see it on the news before I
ask you for the time away."

"Hm, interesting...if it's just a volunteer thing, why is it so prominent on your resume?"

"For a lot of us it's more than volunteer.  I've received a lot of great training, learned some excellent lessons
on how to be both a follower and a leader, and I've managed very large-scale activities with large
budgets and numerous staff.  The 'we're all in this together' mentality of a paramilitary
group had really taught me the importance of teamwork and mission, and the volunteer paradigm
has helped me grow my skills of persuasion and planning, since people working hard for
free usually want to real good idea of why it's important to complete their tasks.

CAP has had a great influence on my life, and in turn made me a better employee and manager."

"Great, now, what do you know about ..."

That's been the sum total of the conversation every time, and with the exception of being occasionally
seen in uniform, showing off a photo or story from something cool I'm doing, or people asking me
if I might have some knowledge of "this or that", it's never been a problem.

One company I worked for recruited heavily from the military for mid-level managers because they
appreciated the mentality.  Knowing the shorthand never hurt, and I even got one involved as
an instructor for encampment.

Granted IT people tend to never be "off", so they enjoy more flexibility than other professions
(I'm billing on one tab as I write this on another), but in general employers appreciate
well-rounded employees, and are willing to do their bit. This is especially true for large
corporations that absolutely love to be seen waving the flag and
supporting the military, in any flavor it can find.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have always been upfront with every employer about what my involvement in CAP entails.

Usually the reaction varies with what they know or do not know about CAP.

Some reactions I've got:

"That still exists?  I knew it was around in WWII, but I didn't know it was still around."
"What is Civil Air Patrol?"
"Are you guys like the Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve, where I'm gonna have to let you go for two weeks or more a year?"

I said this in a previous thread, but I've had employers who didn't hire me because I was in CAP (based on their reaction), my CAP status helped me get a job (my boss/interviewer was retired USAF), and I had one particular employer who was very hostile about my CAP involvement.

[Major Carrales]

"That still exists?  I knew it was around in WWII, but I didn't know it was still around."
"What is Civil Air Patrol?"
"Are you guys like the Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve, where I'm gonna have to let you go for two weeks or more a year?"

I said this in a previous thread, but I've had employers who didn't hire me because I was in CAP (based on their reaction), my CAP status helped me get a job (my boss/interviewer was retired USAF), and I had one particular employer who was very hostile about my CAP involvement.

Sounds like basic ignorance about the nature of CAP.

[Eclipse]

I said this in a previous thread, but I've had employers who didn't hire me because I was in CAP (based on their reaction), my CAP status helped me get a job (my boss/interviewer was retired USAF), and I had one particular employer who was very hostile about my CAP involvement.

I'd say that any place where CAP is considered a negative, is not a place where someone who is active would want to work anyway, and the
interview process did its job for both sides.

[bflynn]

It's been raised many times about CAP having a cultural problem and/or a leadership problem.  I'd suggest that CAP also has an image problem.  A large number of people don't know about us, but of those who do, a large percentage - possibly even a majority - have a negative opinion. 

If you read the red, blue and purple aviation boards, go look at the recent threads there about us.  The results - from other pilots - are not flattering.  It's probably 70% negative, 10% positive and 20% CAP members sticking up for it.

Does that carry through to the general public?  As I said, I'd bet that most people don't know about us.  But I'd also bet that those who do know have opinions slightly better than the pilot community.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'd say that any place where CAP is considered a negative, is not a place where someone who is active would want to work anyway, and the
interview process did its job for both sides.

True enough.  But as I stated elsewhere, the situation I refer to was a very odd one.

The young woman who hired me (and was to have been my boss) had been in the AF.  However, in the few days between my interview and my first day at work, she got fired!

I would take my uniform on unit nights and change in the men's room before going to CAP.  Too often I'd hear cracks like "go play Army on my taxpayer dime."

[Major Carrales]

It's been raised many times about CAP having a cultural problem and/or a leadership problem.  I'd suggest that CAP also has an image problem.  A large number of people don't know about us, but of those who do, a large percentage - possibly even a majority - have a negative opinion. 

If you read the red, blue and purple aviation boards, go look at the recent threads there about us.  The results - from other pilots - are not flattering.  It's probably 70% negative, 10% positive and 20% CAP members sticking up for it.

Does that carry through to the general public?  As I said, I'd bet that most people don't know about us.  But I'd also bet that those who do know have opinions slightly better than the pilot community.

That is why we as CAP members have to be leaders in the General Aviation community...leaders, not annoying or obnoxious.   Sometimes, however, there are things that CAP is doing that they cannot be a part of...like certain CD and HLS things.  I have read these same forums of "rubber neckers" trying to see what we are up to and asked to leave.

We are usually very helpful, or as helpful as we can be, to others at the General Aviation airports.

[bflynn]

Sometimes, however, there are things that CAP is doing that they cannot be a part of...like certain CD and HLS things.  I have read these same forums of "rubber neckers" trying to see what we are up to and asked to leave.

I've never heard of someone getting upset by that.  I think most pilots understand that operating two aircraft in close proximity has inherient risks.

This is things like CAP doing an exercise in close proximity to a non-towered airport without talking on the CTAF to tell anyone what they're doing.  Then on top of that, having a real life emergency where an airplane went down short of the that runway and CAP not reacting.

There are multiple instances of cadets providing security at airshows where they've caused issues because they were inflexible.  In one instance, delaying a performing pilot from getting to his airplane and setting the airshow schedule off.

A lot of the stories come from former members.  You can say they're just disgruntled, but there seem to be an awful lot of them. 

Maybe these are isolated instances that get told to hundreds of people.  But how they get spread is irrelevant - the fact is, CAP does have an image problem, especially in the pilot community.  I understand it, but I'm not sure I can accurately talk about it right now - I know it stems from culture, it stems from inflexibility and a demand that others comply for the purpose of compliance.

[754837]

Unfortunately I concur with the image problem statement from the above post.

[johnnyb47]

A little google searching yielded some interesting results on this subject;
It seems general aviation has an image problem in the commercial pilot community.
It seems the boy scouts have an image problem in the CAP cadet programs community.
It seems CERT has an image problem in the SAR/DR communities.
It seems that public school teachers have an image problem in the homeschool community.
It seems homeschoolers have an image problem in the public school community.
Etc
Etc

Lesson learned: people from all walks have problems with what the people on the other side of the fence are doing and everyone makes mistakes (CAP, as you can see, can be guilty of both). The only way to combat this is to do the best that you can in your individual and group efforts and avoid generally unhappy people at all cost. I can do the first part... the second part is a little trickier.

[RADIOMAN015]

I said this in a previous thread, but I've had employers who didn't hire me because I was in CAP (based on their reaction), my CAP status helped me get a job (my boss/interviewer was retired USAF), and I had one particular employer who was very hostile about my CAP involvement.

I'd say that any place where CAP is considered a negative, is not a place where someone who is active would want to work anyway, and the
interview process did its job for both sides.

Well that's really an individual's decision.   

Surely with some senior members living at home with their parents with no real career, other than a CAP 'volunteer' career (whatever the heck that means), they can be more flexible it finding new employment.  For those CAP members that have families to support, I think getting & keeping the job is likely more important than playing "military dress up" or "rescue ricky" (and when that former regional commander was told by his bosses make a choice, CAP activities or take the promotion and produce, he made the logically choice).

I also seem to think that the current law on guard/reserve military personnel, also is an abused law.  That law was originally meant for unit involuntary call ups,  --- it wasn't made for johnny guardman & janie reserve woman to voluntarily put in to deploy somewhere (and some do this volunteering on a regular basis) .   There's also those types that can't make a decision on whether they want a civilian career or a military career.   In today's dog eat dog work environment, the emphasis is on what that individual does for the company/organization/public agency, not what they do volunteering away from the workplace.   ANYONE who thinks otherwise is naive
RM

   
       

[Ned]

I also seem to think that the current law on guard/reserve military personnel, also is an abused law.  That law was originally meant for unit involuntary call ups,  --- it wasn't made for johnny guardman & janie reserve woman to voluntarily put in to deploy somewhere (and some do this volunteering on a regular basis) .   There's also those types that can't make a decision on whether they want a civilian career or a military career.   In today's dog eat dog work environment, the emphasis is on what that individual does for the company/organization/public agency, not what they do volunteering away from the workplace.   ANYONE who thinks otherwise is naive
RM

Sir, you indicate that you have military experience.  So what do you think is the effect on a Reserve or Guard career if one never volunteers for a tour or school, resists any deployment unless ordered to go, and otherwise strives to put in the absolute minimum of time?

Are these the kinds of reservists who get selected for promotion (and the schools and assignments necessary to be "best qualified" for promotion)?

As you must surely know, reservists make countless decisions about balancing work and family with their Reserve and Guard careers, ultimately sacrificing a little of each for the greater good of our nation.

I'm truly sorry if you think that is "abusive."

Talk about naive . . .

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I also seem to think that the current law on guard/reserve military personnel, also is an abused law.  That law was originally meant for unit involuntary call ups,  --- it wasn't made for johnny guardman & janie reserve woman to voluntarily put in to deploy somewhere (and some do this volunteering on a regular basis) .

Really?

Better kibosh Airman Leadership School and stay at E-4 forever.  You don't need those extra stripes, nor that extra pay that goes to help feed your family and pay the rent.

And if you have plans to become an OFFICER...best wait until you're ordered to OTS or AMS.  12 weeks or 6 weeks away just to get shiny new butterbars...doesn't cut it in the corporate world.

Also of note: When I worked at my CAP-unfriendly employer, I was not living at home with my parents.  I lived alone in an apartment.

I'm fully in line with what Ned says on the subject.

[RADIOMAN015]

I also seem to think that the current law on guard/reserve military personnel, also is an abused law.  That law was originally meant for unit involuntary call ups,  --- it wasn't made for johnny guardman & janie reserve woman to voluntarily put in to deploy somewhere (and some do this volunteering on a regular basis) .   There's also those types that can't make a decision on whether they want a civilian career or a military career.   In today's dog eat dog work environment, the emphasis is on what that individual does for the company/organization/public agency, not what they do volunteering away from the workplace.   ANYONE who thinks otherwise is naive
RM

Sir, you indicate that you have military experience.  So what do you think is the effect on a Reserve or Guard career if one never volunteers for a tour or school, resists any deployment unless ordered to go, and otherwise strives to put in the absolute minimum of time?

Are these the kinds of reservists who get selected for promotion (and the schools and assignments necessary to be "best qualified" for promotion)?

As you must surely know, reservists make countless decisions about balancing work and family with their Reserve and Guard careers, ultimately sacrificing a little of each for the greater good of our nation.

I'm truly sorry if you think that is "abusive."

Talk about naive . . .

I think many who are in the reserve or national guard are at a disadvantage in securing employment if he/she looses their current job and retains reserve/guard membership.   (I believe there's a large national trucking firm that always hired military reservists/guardsman that had a serious staffing problem for awhile when many of them deployed).  This also applies to Civil Air Patrol members who talk too much about CAP during interviews or the way they place this on their resumes.

I think most HR departments that have military veterans and or military retirees in them will try to help the veteran/military retiree presenting at the door looking for a job, in getting a job (as long as everything else checks out ok).    HOWEVER, one does hire people that are expected to be on the job every day meeting the appropriate objectives.   Not many employers are thrilled when a guardsman or reservist go off to "voluntary" duty (and most can find that out).   I agree with you that surely for the Guardsman/Reservist it's very difficult for them.  Maybe guard, reserve, and even CAP members can sell their training to their employers, who will see it as a win situation for the business/non profit organization/government agency .   
RM