Who else can CAP learn from?

[Major Carrales]

For starters, consider that the Sea Cadets (unlike CAP Cadets) actually have some pretty great training. There was a division of Sea Cadets at RTC when I was going through boot camp. They trained and ate alongside us. We were there because we were getting paid. You can't help but respect a kid who is there just for kicks when s/he could be at home eating cereal and watching cartoons.

What do we have to offer our cadets? We can teach them how to build model rockets and wear a uniform.

Considering the fact that CAP has an encampment on the same RTC, you might want to take a look at what CAP actually does, versus making pointed comments not based in reality.

We impart a lot more to our cadets besides rockets and uniforms.  If you're not getting that, its a local issue.

The "genuine" of operating Cadets in ES is what attracts a great deal of young people to CAP.  If we give lots of training with no chance for deployment, they might as well stay home and do none of it.

Real responsibility and real situations are what cadets crave.  They want to do real things, not train for nothing.

[lordmonar]

I'm not sure where I'd fall on this. Having people who can concentrate full-time on CAP has its advantages, but you're going to have trouble growing people organically with these kind of management skills (i.e. have to be in CAP 5-10 years to get to level 3 or 4), and you can forget about transferring most people around the country for this job, especially if it has a limited life span of 3 years.  Few people would uproot their lives after building relationships in the organization for 5-10 years.  It would also impact their effectiveness, since they'd lose whatever network they had built to that point.

Why would we shuffle them around so soon?  The only reason why we go those term limits now is because it is a volunteer position.  If it were a paid position I see no reason of keeping a wing CC for as long as he/she remains effective.

Unlike the military, or even most corporations, where there is consistency of training and legal obligation to follow orders, everyone below the Wing CC will still be there on their own dime, with their own set of priorities.  How many would be inclined to follow a stranger into battle just because he's the new Wing CC?

Again I would draw from the BSA model and say that they do it all time.  Also ain't no one going into battle

And further, how many people would want to tie their careers to a situation where they can be held accountable in a very real-world way (i.e. fired) for the actions of volunteers who have no real-world implications for non-performance.

BSA does this all the time.  Someone screws up it is the professional scouter who gets fired.  On the other hand.....if your job is dependant on your subordinate volunteers following the rules.....how long would you put up with a screw up before you 2b him?

The Nat CC orders the Region CC who orders the Wing CC - they are all paid ee's, so they salute and execute, but below the Wing CC, you have to ask real nice, and then what if it doesn't get done?  Who get fired?  The random problem-child member can always be term'ed, but yo can't start wholesale bouncing people, because there's no consistent stream of replacements.

Most certainly.  Johnny Squadron Commander starts off with the 'I'm a volunteer" argument.....you just say "CAP is a privilege not a right, bye bye". Then you start the work to find and train his replacement.  But unlike now....the Wing CC would have the time to this sort of work....unlike now where he has to fit it in between his real job, CAP duties and home life.

In the military and corporate world, you bounce the bozos and hire a new guy.  We all know the score in CAP, where the performer may be the only one willing to do the job.

Because the job is hard work and now pay you only find those with the time on their hands willing to do it.  Offer the right pay and you will get real professionals.

And unlike Highspeedlowdrag I would not limit myself to just CAP volunteers for the job.  I would look for those with the management skills and passon for it first.......I can always train them to do the CAP side of things.

Then there's the cost.

At a minimum, this is 100-150K a year plus benefits and expenses, and when you're hiring execs at that level you can't nickel and dime them about paperclips and copy expense the way we do to our volunteers today. 

So let's say with benefits and expenses we're talking about $200K per year.

That's about 14 Million - 1/2 again as much as the total operational budget.  Good luck with that.

How does the BSA do it?  We also hire 50+ wing administrators, how are we paying for that?

and let's not forget that while the Wing CC is now on the payroll, the rest of the organization is not.  How do you motivate people with "follow me", when you're the only one in the room who doesn't have to get up early the next day for a "real" job.  Good luck with vacations - we're all taking vacation time to play CAP, while you're away from CAP on a paid vacation.  Excellent plan.

Come on down to a BSA round table meeting or any other BSA event.  They seem to do it just fine.

If the belief is that monetary compensation is the way to attract better talent, you'd be much better served by finding a way to get CAP commanders integrated with the reserves in some capacity to allow them to partake of some limited benefits, perhaps be compensated when they play CAP, and garner a little more respect around the military water coolers.  This would cost a lot less (in hard cost, probably the same in soft costs), and generally preserve the volunteerism aspect of CAP.

Payed by CAP or payed by the USAF what is the difference?  The BSA/Red Cross/Boys Club/United Way all have found ways to have paid staff and volunteers to work side by side with out disturbing their traditions of volunteerism.

[Major Carrales]

Ollie, if you train your cadets to believe in what CAP does...instead of unloading "a BUS full of KIDS;" you have a group of professionals ready to be a force multiplier.  I make it clear that CAP cadets are to be held to a "higher" standard than anyone else there age I deal with.  That they are expected to act as adults and will be treated accordingly.  That the moment they "act like KIDS," they will be "treated as KIDS."

You will be surprised how much a teen-aged cadet will fight for the privilege  to be taken seriously, to be accepted as a member of a team and to continue to do "real world work."  Because it is the status quo of their lives to be condescended to, excluded from the institutions/establishments and run through meaningless "baby games" that never contribute to "the real thing."    They will praise you and grow from the former, and hate you forever for any of the latter.

[FARRIER]

Ollie, if you train your cadets to believe in what CAP does...instead of unloading "a BUS full of KIDS;" you have a group of professionals ready to be a force multiplier.  I make it clear that CAP cadets are to be held to a "higher" standard than anyone else there age I deal with.  That they are expected to act as adults and will be treated accordingly.  That the moment they "act like KIDS," they will be "treated as KIDS."

You will be surprised how much a teen-aged cadet will fight for the privilege  to be taken seriously, to be accepted as a member of a team and to continue to do "real world work."  Because it is the status quo of their lives to be condescended to, excluded from the institutions/establishments and run through meaningless "baby games" that never contribute to "the real thing."    They will praise you and grow from the former, and hate you forever for any of the latter.

Joe, thank you. :clap:

[Lt Oliv]

Ollie, if you train your cadets to believe in what CAP does...instead of unloading "a BUS full of KIDS;" you have a group of professionals ready to be a force multiplier.  I make it clear that CAP cadets are to be held to a "higher" standard than anyone else there age I deal with.  That they are expected to act as adults and will be treated accordingly.  That the moment they "act like KIDS," they will be "treated as KIDS."

You will be surprised how much a teen-aged cadet will fight for the privilege  to be taken seriously, to be accepted as a member of a team and to continue to do "real world work."  Because it is the status quo of their lives to be condescended to, excluded from the institutions/establishments and run through meaningless "baby games" that never contribute to "the real thing."    They will praise you and grow from the former, and hate you forever for any of the latter.

That would make an excellent poster.

The reality of the situation is that we end up looking a tad foolish when we roll up with our bus full of "professionals" who, in the eyes of local agencies and the law are, in fact, KIDS.

It doesn't matter what the cadets crave. What matters is what we can reasonably deliver. The fact is that in many areas, a typical CAP cadet is simply too young to be considered a volunteer in a variety of ops because State and Local Governments calls the shots there.

If the state says a ground team has to be 18+, they don't care how well trained the cadets are.

That attitude is precisely what has us in this jam in the first place. Other youth programs (Sea Cadets, Young Marines what have you) focus on training. I'm sure you can find a group of highly motivated Young Marines who want to go to combat, NOW! That doesn't change the fact that their role at present is to train so that, when they reach legal adulthood, they can make the decision themselves.

Heavy involvement of the cadets limits the scope of what CAP can offer. Your attitude seems to be that the cadets are our mission and I am disagreeing with you. I am advocating putting the mission first and letting the cadets fill in wherever they reasonably can. Whereas your objections seem to favor dressing up some adolescents and arriving at a disaster with our chests puffed out because we command a small army of highly trained professionals who need to be home at a reasonable hour to do their math homework.

[Lt Oliv]

As a side note, I will tell you that your reference to training as "baby games" is offensive to anyone who ever served in the military.

Are recruits in boot camp playing "baby games?"

There is a time to train and a time to put the training to work. I don't care if cadets want "the real thing" they are limited in what they can participate by local laws and rightfully so.

I never said training had to be useless.  I think that the training should be redeveloped into something useful. If you think that relevant training is a "baby game" well, maybe your best service to the community would be sitting at home playing with your shadowbox.

[Major Carrales]

Heavy involvement of the cadets limits the scope of what CAP can offer. Your attitude seems to be that the cadets are our mission and I am disagreeing with you. I am advocating putting the mission first and letting the cadets fill in wherever they reasonably can. Whereas your objections seem to favor dressing up some adolescents and arriving at a disaster with our chests puffed out because we command a small army of highly trained professionals who need to be home at a reasonable hour to do their math homework.

We have three stated missions and Cadet Programs are one of them.   We allow Cadets to operate in CAP, it has been part of what we do since the 1940s.

Putting the mission first involves applying ALL the MISSION, not just a cherry pick.

In the scope of how we operate in my sphere of influence, cadets interact with our potential "clients" well before the disaster occurs.  They display and prove their professionalism prior to ever being called up.  While they don't fly the missions, I have seen them, during Hurricane Relief, play a most active and vital role in the AirOps room and they have distinguished themselves on Ground Teams even working hand in and with the Army.

They receive the same training as a senior members and, in some cases, end up more qualified in Emergency Services than those in certain offices who are "rustled up" to be an Emergency Service Coordinator.

[Major Carrales]

As a side note, I will tell you that your reference to training as "baby games" is offensive to anyone who ever served in the military.

Are recruits in boot camp playing "baby games?"

There is a time to train and a time to put the training to work. I don't care if cadets want "the real thing" they are limited in what they can participate by local laws and rightfully so.

I never said training had to be useless.  I think that the training should be redeveloped into something useful. If you think that relevant training is a "baby game" well, maybe your best service to the community would be sitting at home playing with your shadowbox.

I am going to dismiss the insulting tone as lack of experience here at CAPTALK and remind you to be Civil in your discourse.  You seem to, in the heat of emotion at my mention of your name in a post, have lashed out and deliberately misinterpreted my meaning. (most likely to solicit an emotional response from Veterans in an effort to discredit my post with a sort of ad hominem effort so present in our current political system)

Your last line is a hurtful personal insult that has no place in CAPTALK, especially since you have know idea what you are talking about.  I should demand an apology, Sir...however I have already said I have dismissed it.

By "baby games," I mean those school programs, like a student council, where students are led to believe they can make a difference and effect policy, but are instead given no real authority to do anything more than play with Robert's Rules.  These do nothing but discourage.

In the event that you have forgotten...
The Civil Air Patrol is chartered by Congress with federal support to serve as the official civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force. We are a volunteer organization with an aviation-minded membership that includes people from all backgrounds, lifestyles, and occupations. It performs three important missions assigned by the US Congress...

1) Emergency services, which includes SAR and disaster relief operations

2) Aerospace education for youth and the general public

3) ...and Cadet Programs for our youth.

That is FOCUSING on the MISSION!!!

[N Harmon]

What do we have to offer our cadets? We can teach them how to build model rockets and wear a uniform.

You forgot:

- Build, maintain, and fly gliders and airplanes.
- Manage small and large groups of people.
- Survive in the wilderness.
- Give first aid to an injured person.
- Marshall aircraft.
- Defend computer networks from attack.
- Construct and repair airport runways.
- Work in space.
- Fly in military aircraft.

And that is just off of the top of my head. I'm sure there are tons of things I'm forgetting. CAP provides amazing opportunities that may or may not be available in other programs.

[lordmonar]

On the training and the use of cadets.

I would be wonderful if we can train our cadets and use them all the time but that is just not going to happen all the time.

We should use them when and where we can....but it is still not wasted training.

The Boy Scouts (to continue with a theme) trains their scouts in a lot of areas (about 120 different merit badges).  There is no expectation that they DO anything with these skills after they complete the requirements, except maybe discover a love for the new skill.  The idea is to expose scouts to a lots of things so they can grow and maybe become better leaders.

CAP can do the same with ES.  Learning to be a MRO, FLM, MSA or GTM give them skills they may or may not ever need.  We can still use them as a leadership lab even if they never ever get called out on a real SAR.

[davedove]

My thought is that we can potentially learn something from any organization.  We should not be so quick to throw out an idea because "we don't do things like they do."  Sure, our organization's environment may make an idea from another place unworkable, but we won't know unless we look at it.