Cost of Encampment

[Timbo]

I don't want to open a poll, but would like to see what some other Wings are charging for Encampment.

PAWG is at $175.00 for both Seniors and Cadets.  No staff discounts and no options on eating on your own, with mandatory eating in the contractor run "community club" (and it may actually cost more than that this summer).   

I have been to Encampments that cost as little as $45.00, but nothing as high as $175.00

 

[RickFranz]

We just finished our Kansas Wing Encampment, it was $100 each.

[Stonewall]

I remember my first cadet encampment in 1987 costing $125.  I have been to two as a senior member and did not have to pay.  Nor did I have to pay when I was commandant of Advanced NGSAR in 1999.

I don't think $175 is all that bad.  That's $25 a day for 3 meals, a bed, shower and use of base facilities and personnel.

[notaNCO forever]

 $120 for cadets free for senior members. It might be free for cadet staff this year also, but I'm not positive.

[MIKE]

I think I paid around $90 WIWAC.  I say make the staff pay if it means you can cut the per person cost for all attendees.  If anybodies encampment should be free it should be the cadet going to his/her first one... Not the staffer whose going to give back 10 fold.

[PA Guy]

Encampment costs vary widely.  There are a multitude of variables that contribute to the cost.  The days of the base eating most of the costs are largely gone.  Many wings also require the encampment to be completely self supporting.

In my wing we use a NG facility that charges for barracks, linen, classrooms, chow hall, O course, rifle range, parade ground and many other things.  The problem is there aren't a lot places where we can hold an encampment for 300 in our state so we are  kinda stuck.  Encampment costs approx. $200

[Eclipse]

Illinois Spring

$70 for cadets

$35 for seniors

"Big-4" cadet staff fees are waived.

[Jolt]

$120 for cadets free for senior members. It might be free for cadet staff this year also, but I'm not positive.

Who told you that? 

I honestly don't know if I'm allowed to let that info out.

[Gunner C]

Illinois Spring

$70 for cadets

$35 for seniors

"Big-4" cadet staff fees are waived.

Personally, I can't see why the fee for cadet officers would be waived.  I think that it sends the wrong message.  It's like the old tradition of NCOs eat after the airmen go through the mess line and officers eat after everyone is fed.  Everyone should pay their own way - there shouldn't be a class of cadets (or SMs) that get a free ride or even ride for less.

[Stonewall]

I disagree about SMs paying for encampments & NCSAs. As an independent contractor in 1999 I wasn't afforded leave so when I spent 9 days total with NGSAR as a staff member without pay.  I can see if you went to NESA as a student, but I ran the program.

Right now, as someone with leave benefits I could take leave with pay but that is taking away from free time I could spend with my family.  Until I reach my 5 year mark and earn 3 weeks of vacation each year, I will use my vacation time wisely as it relates to CAP limiting a one week activity to every other year vs every year.

Cadet staff, yes, I think they should pay like everyone else.  They're paying for an experience along with room and board. And it should be shared evenly among cadets regardless of rank or experience.

[Ned]

FWIW, I've been to a little over 30 encampments, and commanded a few of CAWG's.


1.  Costs vary with the facility.  Some places (like NG bases attempting to recover all possible costs) charge a lot for every little thing.  ("Did you need a Porta Potty for the review? $90, please.  Oh, and we used three hours of staff time to estimate your encampment costs, so that is another  $180, sir.")

Some bases -- generally AD bases -- are surprisingly flexible about costs.  We once had Vandenberg AFB simply give us our food for the week at the dining hall.  That was over 2,000 meals!

2.  For me, all cadets pay; and all seniors pay their share of costs if we can parse it out (otherwise they pay full boat.)  I cannot justify Suzie Basic subsidizing my meals when I have a good job.

3.  CAWG encampments have always been on the high end, cost wise.  Currently about $200, I think.  And it is a great deal.  It inlcudes t-shirts, ball caps, o-rides, etc., plus an opportunity to personally engage in Barracks Cleanliness Operations at no extra charge!

4.  CAWG's official policy is that "no cadet will be denied encampment based on an inability to pay."  Which means that every year some basics attend on a reduced fee basis.  Some attend for free.

5.  Most years on CadetStuff, I post about encampment costs, specifically comparing them to Girl Scout camps.  CAP compares very, very favorably on the basis of cost.  Their one-week resident summer camps are typically twice what CAWG charges for our encampments, and much much more if you want to ride horses or attend Llama Camp.  Bottom line, parents see us as inexspensive when compared to almost any other youth organization.

6.  Encampment should cost something significant, if for no other reason is that people often do not value that which they receive for little or no cost.  It may be an old-fashioned notion but the idea of a cadet getting a part-time job at minimim wage to pay for encampment still means that they would need to work less than 20-30 hours to pay for a typical encampment.  I'd call that a wise investment.

YMMV

Ned Lee
Encampment Guy

[Jimbo]

I disagree about SMs paying for encampments & NCSAs. As an independent contractor in 1999 I wasn't afforded leave so when I spent 9 days total with NGSAR as a staff member without pay.  I can see if you went to NESA as a student, but I ran the program.

Right now, as someone with leave benefits I could take leave with pay but that is taking away from free time I could spend with my family.  Until I reach my 5 year mark and earn 3 weeks of vacation each year, I will use my vacation time wisely as it relates to CAP limiting a one week activity to every other year vs every year.

Cadet staff, yes, I think they should pay like everyone else.  They're paying for an experience along with room and board. And it should be shared evenly among cadets regardless of rank or experience.

I beg to differ, since from my experience, costs for encampment are due to food, lodging, etc.  So why should seniors go for free?  If you are able to volunteer, and willingly want to take time off work, etc. then great.  It shouldn't be the expectation that one individual would have to go every year to encampment, unless they want to.  With some senior staff positions, I have seen some work a few days, and then switch out.  Flexibility is key, especially with valued time off.  But I disagree with seniors not paying for activities, especially when it the long run, it makes everyone elses cost more.

[Nathan]

To be honest, I don't see a whole lot of difference in the reasoning between seniors and cadets not being able to attend encampment. Either the senior can't afford to go, or the cadet (or the cadet's parents) can't afford to send him/her. I don't see why one should be required to pay, and the other is not. They both have the same reason for having the difficulty in the first place.

The only difference is that I think we should be bending over backwards to send the cadet to at least his/her basic encampment. Seniors are not required to go. Unless there was such a serious shortage in senior members that the encampment itself was threatened, any extra money the encampment has to be sponsoring members to attend should be going toward less fortunate cadets. It's their activity.

[NIN]

At the very least, seniors need to cover their costs (ie. meals & billeting) at an encampment.   Having been to not quite nearly as many encampments as Ned, I agree with him on this.  Your presence costs a specific amount. At the very least, you should cover the costs of your presence rather than riding on the backs of the cadets who are paying for their presence and then some.

Now, that being said, seniors are the ones making encampment "work," therefore I don't have a beef with it being a "cost" item for seniors. 

I felt like I was taking money out of cadet's piggy banks when I had to raise the price of our encampment in, uh, I think it was 2000 to just over $100 to cover expected costs.     One year (2003, I think) food service was in question up until about 3 weeks prior to encampment.  We were having a tough time getting man-days from the AF, and the Army Guard's policy at the facility we were at was that they didn't allow "non-cooks" to check out the DFAC.   So if we didn't get Air Guard cooks, the only other option was to have the activity catered.  The encampment commander raised the price of encampment to cover the expected cost, and when the Air Guard manage to come thru for us with cooks, instead of refunding the price he negotiated a deal with Camelbak to get 75 Camelbaks and every cadet used and then went home with a nice new Camelbak (all matching in color, thus obviating my age-old beef with hydration packs: uniformity)



You guys would pass out if you knew how much the USAC's annual training cost.

[Pylon]

I have to agree about senior members paying their way (though I should disclose that I've been given two encampments free so far as a senior member, unexpectedly).  The senior members would have been paying for their food and incidental costs if they were home; they shouldn't expect to go somewhere else and have their food paid for them.

Most senior members at encampment get a lot out of it, too.  Great experiences and lessons in working with cadets that they can bring back to their home units and to future activities.   Even though SMs are "working", they're also training a little bit themselves.

$100 to $200 to pay for my food for a week, plus give me a ballcap, a t-shirt and other goodies?  Well, I've spent more on food in one sitting so I don't think it's terribly unreasonable.

[Stonewall]

I'm not looking for a free ride, I just think, perhaps in a perfect world, the cost for seniors could be offset by some sort of funding.  I realize this is not possible, but it would be nice.  I have paid for every activity I've ever been to and paid for others as well.  I am not a cheap person, just ask my wife.  Cost is a factor for a lot of people and I think if there were a way to pay for seniors to attend certain activities we probably wouldn't have a tough time findind quality seniors to attend activities since many use personal leave or sometimes take leave without pay.  YMMV.

[COL Land]

You guys would pass out if you knew how much the USAC's annual training cost.

Lt Col Ninness:

I beg to differ.  Remember, most of the above are referencing a one-week CAP encampment experience, compared to 2-3 weeks for USAC Cadets.   Our Recruits paid $425 last year, which was $25.56 a day at 16 days.  Further, our Cadets are issued a Camelback, laundry bag, shower shoes, towels and other items, along with the costs of ammo, vehicles, etc.   The typical hometown Cadet is actually getting a real bargain, especially compared to BSA, YMCA, etc.

R,

[Duke Dillio]

My squadron will supplement any cadet who wishes to go to encampment if there is a financial difficulty.  We do not, however, give "free money."  The cadet in question has to apply for a "grant" if they so require.  I think in the past, part of the application included an essay, a small review board, and some other things that I don't quite remember anymore.  I tend to think that this does give the cadet a good experience.  It's almost like applying for a scholarship to college so I believe that it sets them up pretty good.  FWIW, our squadron got into the United Way campaign and so we generally get a good set of funds each year from those types of donations.

[C/Dick]

In 2007 I paid $170.  In 2008, the cost for basics was $175, but I payed $215 for ATF (Advanced Training Flight).  I believe $215 was the cost for seniors in both years.

I'm in COWG, by the way.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

My first encampment?

Airlift from the West Virginia ANG to and from.

Simulator time at USAir's facilities.

Encampment hats.

All meals at the base mess hall, right next door to the VAQ buildings.

Type A encampment, yessir.

How much? $35.

(1985, in case you wondered. Back when the military got lots of money, we had LOs, not state directors, and NHQ was run by the Air Force.)

[Timbo]

My first encampment?

Airlift from the West Virginia ANG to and from.

Simulator time at USAir's facilities.

Encampment hats.

All meals at the base mess hall, right next door to the VAQ buildings.

Type A encampment, yessir.

How much? $35.

(1985, in case you wondered. Back when the military got lots of money, we had LOs, not state directors, and NHQ was run by the Air Force.)

Pittsburgh Air Reserve Base??  I gather from the USAIR sim's, as they were solely located in the Pittsburgh area in the '80's and '90's.  I went to that Encampment in 1993.  I feel so old!  The AF also provided us with a bus to get to Pittsburgh.  It was better in some ways back then. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

My first encampment?

Airlift from the West Virginia ANG to and from.

Simulator time at USAir's facilities.

Encampment hats.

All meals at the base mess hall, right next door to the VAQ buildings.

Type A encampment, yessir.

How much? $35.

(1985, in case you wondered. Back when the military got lots of money, we had LOs, not state directors, and NHQ was run by the Air Force.)

Pittsburgh Air Reserve Base??  I gather from the USAIR sim's, as they were solely located in the Pittsburgh area in the '80's and '90's.  I went to that Encampment in 1993.  I feel so old!  The AF also provided us with a bus to get to Pittsburgh.  It was better in some ways back then. 

Yip, Pittsburgh's AFRES base, home of the 911 AW. My first two encampments were there ('85 and '86), then my other three were at Dover AFB, Del., NAS Patuxent River, Md., and K.I. Sawyer AFB, Mich. I was a flight sergeant at my first, a squadron commander at my second, the XO at my third, a senior staff member at the fourth and the deputy commander at the fifth.

Oh, I was a cadet in West Virginia, in case you wonder. We had airlift to all five of those encampments as well as the ones that followed -- Fort Knox, Ky., Redstone Arsenal, Ala., Langley AFB, Va., Naval Training Base Orlando, Fla....

Because there are no active bases in West Virginia, its CAP cadets traveled to out-of-state locations for the wing's encampments. Airlift was always provided by the 130th (Charleston) and 167th (Martinsburg) Tactical Airlift Wings, West Virginia ANG.

In this era of cutbacks and drawdowns, encampments up there are now at Camp Dawson, W.Va.

[Dirtman]

Illinois Wing Summer Encampment runs from $125 to $175 for cadets, including cadet staff, depending upon what facility it was held at and how hard the mess hall contractor hits them.  Seniors have no fees except for their rooms when they stay in a VOQ.   

[Ozzy]

Well for NYWg 2008, it was $175 per cadet along with possible financial aid and $15 per day for senior members. NYWg 2009 I heard the cost may get increased to about $200 or $215 per cadet. I'm also going to CTWg encampment pending my acceptance as staff and cadet staff is free this year! $215 for two encampments for about 3 weeks together isn't all too bad.

[Rotorhead]

I think I paid around $90 WIWAC.  I say make the staff pay if it means you can cut the per person cost for all attendees.  If anybodies encampment should be free it should be the cadet going to his/her first one... Not the staffer whose going to give back 10 fold.

I agree.

If a cadet can't go because he can't afford it while an (employed) adult is given a free ride, that's just wrong.

[Rotorhead]

or attend Llama Camp.

"Llama camp?"

[Ned]

or attend Llama Camp.

"Llama camp?"

What, you've never been to Llama Camp?



Well, this summer you could attend the 5-day "Llama Mamas" camp put on by the Girl Scouts of Northern California at their Skylark Ranch for only $425.

Does kind of put the reasonable costs of a CAP encampment in perspective, doesn't it?

[IceNine]

or attend Llama Camp.

"Llama camp?"

The first rule of Llama camp is, "Never Talk About Llama Camp"   

[PHall]

or attend Llama Camp.

"Llama camp?"

The first rule of Llama camp is, "Never Talk About Llama Camp"   

No, the First Rule of Llama Camp is "Don't get within spitting range of the Llamas."

[ThorntonOL]

If I recall right, one of the cadets in Pumba's squadron raises alpacas or llamas or both.
Can't remember exactly but pretty sure the cadet's family still raises them.

[Rotorhead]

or attend Llama Camp.

"Llama camp?"

What, you've never been to Llama Camp?



Well, this summer you could attend the 5-day "Llama Mamas" camp put on by the Girl Scouts of Northern California at their Skylark Ranch for only $425.

Does kind of put the reasonable costs of a CAP encampment in perspective, doesn't it?

Well, sure , but encampments don't include the llamas, either.

[Timbo]

Girl Scouts is not as expensive as CAP is.  That is why they sell delicious cookies for 5 bucks a package, and normally sell three or more packages to the average buyer.  The girl scout groups get almost half the profits from cookie sales.  So if one den sells over $5,000 they can expect to see about $2,500.  That more than pays a big sum of their expenses to attend at least one annual event a year.   

[MIKE]

Ummm... yeah.