Encampment required before applying to NCSA?

[xray328]

Our daughter was all set to go to her first encampment in two weeks but she broke her foot tonight [emoji19]. If she gets to spring encampment before the NCSA next summer will she be ok or does the encampment have to be done before applying?

I also see a few states that have winter encampments.  So far I've found Texas, Kansas, and Florida. Anyone know if there's any other wings with winter encampments?

Thanks!

[PA Guy]

ORWG has a winter encampment.

[Spam]

I would encourage you to not give up yet.  Give your Wing's Encampment Commander a call, explaining the mishap, and see if they'll be willing to take your cadet anyways with restrictions. I have, in the past.


The key factors will be to have clear doctors orders exempting her from certain activities, to determine the degree of minimally mobility she will have, and to discuss with the staff their ability to accommodate her reduced mobility. She may not be able to do PT or run confidence courses, or even pass in review, but if she can participate in the other 80 percent of the curriculum with some assistance, that would be a win over adversity in my book.  Be prepared to discuss any restricted Schedule pain meds she needs (if any), as that might be a deal breaker if so.


ADAPT - IMPROVISE - OVERCOME!

V/R,
Spam

[lordmonar]

+1
If your daughter is mobile and the doctor says it is okay there is no reason she can't attend encampment.  She may miss out on some things but still get all the required stuff for graduation.   

[PHall]

Just about all of the NCSA's require you to be an Encampment Graduate.
If it is required then it should say so on the NCSA application website.
And yes, completing a fall encampment should meet the requirement.

[PHall]

+1
If your daughter is mobile and the doctor says it is okay there is no reason she can't attend encampment.  She may miss out on some things but still get all the required stuff for graduation.   

NO,NO,NO,NO!!!!!!!!!        Do not send a cadet with a healing broken foot to encampment!

All you will do is lengthen the healing time and cause the cadet a great amount of avoidable pain.

Why would you do that?

There is a large amount of marching and standing and PT at encampment. Those don't go well with injured feet.

[xray328]

I just thought she wouldn't be able to attend for the above mentioned reasons (pt/drill/marching). I emailed the encampment commander to explain the situation.  Her older brother will also be there so he could always help her. She extremely disappointed she can't attend so if there's anyway they can accommodate her, that'd be great.

If nothing else I'll try to get her to the Kansas Wing over Christmas break (closest).

[MSG Mac]

She is in what is called Catagory 2 Fitness Catagory (temporary disability). The encampment should be able to accommodate her, based on her mobility and MDs recommendation and approval.

[TheSkyHornet]

As LtCol McEleney said, I don't think it should be an issue if she meets the requirements of temporary disability. She definitely needs to get authorization for that, but it's doable. Many cadets go to encampment on crutches due to recent injuries prior to start date.

What you do need to be aware of is that sometimes being on crutches or in a walking boot can be just as bad as joining in on physical activities, even from the sidelines. Standing on crutches or trying to keep up can be a real nightmare, as someone who's been there. It can be very exhausting and painful depending on your travel distance (walking), even if just a few hundred yards.

If you're just looking to get her passed so she can get into the national activities, I would consider the later encampments if this seems to rough for her to participate in this early on with her condition. But as a fun factor, it's not going to be there very much with limited mobility. Just a personal standpoint.

Health and healing must come first. But there are workarounds which aren't harmful.

[xray328]

Thanks everyone. 

This letter from the California Wing clearly says she shouldn't go though and would be sent home, no exceptions...Medical #4.

http://cawgencampment.cawgcap.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/2014-Parents-Letter.pdf

[Spam]

Well, that's clear enough then, the California Wing policy is no accommodation at all for Cat II cadets. That's within their rights, of course.


Technically, Cat II status (temporarily limited) applies to the CPFT, which is linked to promotions, not attendance at activities, and of course ANY determination needs to be with the full informed advice of your physician.  See the KB answer on this at:  https://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1751/kw/temporary%20physical.  While frankly this is the first time I've looked that answer up, it dovetails with my experience in trying to find ways to accommodate people, rather than ways to cut people from the program.


I'd consider other Wings encampments in July or August, if that's within your affordability range and ability to contact/ask them. Outside that, yes, winter encampments would be your next window to recycle your cadet, and then early summer encampments before NCSAs.  To address your original point, it would be up to the NCSA whether or not to conditionally accept your applicant cadet, pending completion of a scheduled encampment. Some may do so, some (typically the high demand high cost ones) will not, which makes fair sense, of course.

Best of luck to you, and to your young lady as she heals!

V/R,
Spam

[PHall]

She is in what is called Catagory 2 Fitness Catagory (temporary disability). The encampment should be able to accommodate her, based on her mobility and MDs recommendation and approval.

Can she complete 80% of the training in Cat 2?     You have to complete 80% of the training in order to graduate.

[PHall]

Well, that's clear enough then, the California Wing policy is no accommodation at all for Cat II cadets. That's within their rights, of course.

V/R,
Spam

All CAWG applications are screened by the Encampment Health Services Officer ( A ER Nurse ).
She's been to a number of encampments and knows what the students will go through.

[abdsp51]

So if you are in CA Wg why send your kid to the Midwest when OR is closer?

[xray328]

I'm not, I'm in IL wing. Referenced CA because that's the only reference I could find regarding kids on crutches.

[abdsp51]

I'm not, I'm in IL wing. Referenced CA because that's the only reference I could find regarding kids on crutches.

Don't reference other wings stick to yours.  It'll be better for you and your cadets in the long run.

[xray328]

Can you expand on that?

I'm looking at other wings policy's because I'm considering sending her to other wings encampments, most likely Kansas at this point.

Just seems like there should be a standard policy on the issue system wide.

[abdsp51]

Can you expand on that?

I'm looking at other wings policy's because I'm considering sending her to other wings encampments, most likely Kansas at this point.

Just seems like there should be a standard policy on the issue system wide.

Not every wing does things the same.  With encampments  now there is a certain curriculum that must be followed now. If your thinking Kansas then focus here but ultimately its upto the staff to accept her.  There is always next summer as well.

[Spam]

Can you expand on that?

I'm looking at other wings policy's because I'm considering sending her to other wings encampments, most likely Kansas at this point.

Just seems like there should be a standard policy on the issue system wide.

Not every wing does things the same.  With encampments  now there is a certain curriculum that must be followed now. If your thinking Kansas then focus here but ultimately its upto the staff to accept her.  There is always next summer as well.

XRay, there is a standard policy... to evaluate any medically limited cadets on a case by case basis, against the planned activities, facilities, and staffing levels of the activity. It is called Operational Risk Management (ORM), and as abd correctly states, each Wing will therefore have different circumstances. (Hence, that's why I said its entirely within a given Wing's right to refuse temporarily limited cadets).  The Knowledgebase article does present another aspect of that policy.

Expansion on that as requested:

Facilities factor:
- Wing A has their cadets billeted in old three story military barracks with traditional "open bay" environments, with no elevators. The base has assigned the third deck for CAP's use, as the first two decks are occupied, and the galley is a long march down the street three times a day with no motor transport (real life example: this was RTC Orlando one year, they gave us only the third floors). It would be logistically very difficult to accommodate crutches, with significant opportunities for a slip/fall while negotiating those stairs.
- Wing B is billeted in an Airman/NCO Academy with quad rooms on a single story dorm, right next to the Combined Quarters and Mess. Easy access in/out.

Personnel factor: One Wing may be able to accommodate a limited mobility cadet with help from a dedicated Logistics flight of a dozen cadets to assist (mine does, and we've seen cadets graduate on crutches), but others might have a bare bones staff and the commander may decline to have his students lose focus on their training.


Concur with the others' advice: focus on your Wings policies for the long run. Recommend asking ILWG Encampment staff on their specific ability (I know they read this forum), but if they say no can do, it isn't you... it is due to the specific logistics and safety aspects of the particular situation.


Again, best of luck.
Spam

[PHall]

Can you expand on that?

I'm looking at other wings policy's because I'm considering sending her to other wings encampments, most likely Kansas at this point.

Just seems like there should be a standard policy on the issue system wide.

Not every wing does things the same.  With encampments  now there is a certain curriculum that must be followed now. If your thinking Kansas then focus here but ultimately its upto the staff to accept her.  There is always next summer as well.

XRay, there is a standard policy... to evaluate any medically limited cadets on a case by case basis, against the planned activities, facilities, and staffing levels of the activity. It is called Operational Risk Management (ORM), and as abd correctly states, each Wing will therefore have different circumstances. (Hence, that's why I said its entirely within a given Wing's right to refuse temporarily limited cadets).  The Knowledgebase article does present another aspect of that policy.

Expansion on that as requested:

Facilities factor:
- Wing A has their cadets billeted in old three story military barracks with traditional "open bay" environments, with no elevators. The base has assigned the third deck for CAP's use, as the first two decks are occupied, and the galley is a long march down the street three times a day with no motor transport (real life example: this was RTC Orlando one year, they gave us only the third floors). It would be logistically very difficult to accommodate crutches, with significant opportunities for a slip/fall while negotiating those stairs.
- Wing B is billeted in an Airman/NCO Academy with quad rooms on a single story dorm, right next to the Combined Quarters and Mess. Easy access in/out.

Personnel factor: One Wing may be able to accommodate a limited mobility cadet with help from a dedicated Logistics flight of a dozen cadets to assist (mine does, and we've seen cadets graduate on crutches), but others might have a bare bones staff and the commander may decline to have his students lose focus on their training.


Concur with the others' advice: focus on your Wings policies for the long run. Recommend asking ILWG Encampment staff on their specific ability (I know they read this forum), but if they say no can do, it isn't you... it is due to the specific logistics and safety aspects of the particular situation.


Again, best of luck.
Spam

Or do your kid a big favor and wait til she's healed before she goes to encampment.
She will have a much better time being pain free.

[xray328]

Thanks for everyone's advice. I'm waiting to hear back from wing. I'm leaning towards holding her back, she's so adamant that she will be fine to go though. I think she was just really looking forward to going and has that "I can do this attitude". 

[SarDragon]

Thanks for everyone's advice. I'm waiting to hear back from wing. I'm leaning towards holding her back, she's so adamant that she will be fine to go though. I think she was just really looking forward to going and has that "I can do this attitude".

"I can do this" works, until it doesn't. You never know exactly when that line will get crossed, and when it does, the situation can get ugly very quickly. BTDT. In my most recent case, no harm, no foul, but it coulda turned into something much more unpleasant.

[CAPAPRN]

As the DCS of an Encampment, and an acute care nurse practitioner, I can state that the  flexibility to handle disability varies. I was contacted by another wing because they knew my dorms were ADA compliant and I could take a cadet with a significant disability, and in fact I could likely take a cadet in a wheelchair. The term "reasonable accommodation" and the question "can he/she complete 80% of the encampment" are what should be asked. Pt can be done in a wheelchair, as can classes, as can pass and review. Some encampments are not in the same situation, with latrines 1/2 mile from quarters and up a hill. Also a small state like CT or Maine may be far more able to make these accommodations. That said, New Hampshire has a winter Encampment. Not much fun as the base is closed so it consists of marching, sitting in class ..... actually that's it. However, we (I was ADY that encampment) were able to take a cadet with a heart ailment that most encampments would have never been able to take. And he did just fine. There are always ways to make it happen, and my personal bias is just that - make it happen.

[Capt. Bob Gilbert]

Our daughter was all set to go to her first encampment in two weeks but she broke her foot tonight [emoji19]. If she gets to spring encampment before the NCSA next summer will she be ok or does the encampment have to be done before applying?

I also see a few states that have winter encampments.  So far I've found Texas, Kansas, and Florida. Anyone know if there's any other wings with winter encampments?

Thanks!

NH has one over Christmas break. 

[Airplane girl]

The NH wing encampment is great. I was an inflight there last winter. And there isn't a lot of going outside and stuff because it gets really cold. My friend went to NH winter encampment, and I think he's going to NBB this summer, so you could still apply to NCSAs if you go to a winter encampment. The only thing is, if you go to a winter encampment and then try to go to another wing's encampment for staff the next year (like I did), staff selection can be really confusing.

[xray328]

I'm kinda limited since these are all around the holidays, airfare is ridiculous.

IL Wing said they'll accommodate her. I'll still play it by ear between now and then though. If she's hobbling around the house I'm obviously not sending her.

Thanks again for everyone's help/advice!

[Spam]

Ironically...

I just had a cadet transfer into my unit last week, who had previously been accepted as a staff member on the GAWG Encampment beginning this weekend, who has now busted her foot and is in a cast. As a PA NCO, she is apparently being accommodated and completed RST this past weekend. In a cast. Sigh...

V/R,
Spam

[conca27]

I don't know about other wings, but last year when I broke my arm 2 weeks before encampment I was still allowed to attend as a flight sergeant. I was unable to complete PT, but I was able to do everything else. I know a couple of other inflight cadets spent the week on crutches due to injuries sustained at encampment, but I am unsure if that would have been permitted if they had gotten injured before encampment. The encampment I attended was the 2014 NYWg Encampment.

[sarmed1]

I don't know about other wings, but last year when I broke my arm 2 weeks before encampment I was still allowed to attend as a flight sergeant. I was unable to complete PT, but I was able to do everything else. I know a couple of other inflight cadets spent the week on crutches due to injuries sustained at encampment, but I am unsure if that would have been permitted if they had gotten injured before encampment. The encampment I attended was the 2014 NYWg Encampment.

There is a lot of difference between the participation (and credit) requirements for a staff member vs a student.  Secondly, it is one thing to manage the issues for a student that becomes injured during the course of an activity...  what is the cost of changing their return arrangements, is someone readily available to readily get them from the activity/destination, how much of the activity have they completed and what portion of that activity (physical vs classroom)

MK

[xray328]

As of right now she's still going.  Wing has be outstanding at reassuring us that there is absolutely no reason she can't still attend.  I've been in contact with the Cadet Commander (Commandant of Cadets?)  who was great about addressing all of our concerns. He said they've had cadets with far worse medical issues that have attended in past years. The few things he did mention was that the bed is five feet high (desk fits under it) so she'd need to be careful, but that her fellow cadets would help her, all part of team work I guess. Transportation would be in CAP corporate vehicles if they were going outside the immediate area, showering is in individual stalls (versus trying to balance in an open shower bay).  They have an EMT as the Medical Officer as well. 

Only thing she's disappointed about is that she won't be able to participate in some of the fun things they have planned (rock wall, obstacle course etc)

Anyone know the regs on her taking O flights while shes there? Can she still fly as a passenger with an injured foot in gliders/powered aircraft?  I thought there might be something about mobility issues.  Not sure if DoD aircraft would have the same restrictions.

[CAPs1]

Would think that Wing would have been outstanding in reassuring you on O-flight regs/passenger/injured foot gliders/powered aircraft, DOD aircraft items as well.

[xray328]

They said the have to check on that with the Air Branch Director and will let us know.

[CAPRAT123]

Most NCSA require the age of 14 and up. The only one she will be able to attend if she is only 12 right now, is the model rocketry academy. Just do want I did, wait till your 13 to do encampment then when your 14 you can make some of the really cool NCSA.

[xray328]

She's already there, dropped both kids off this morning. They cleared her for flying activities. She's looking at going to E-Tech (Robotics) and NER Honor Guard Academy. I don't see an age restriction on those?

[wwildcat]

Kansas has a Winter encampment and can fulfill your requirements. Check out their website on the net.

I'd do a fall or winter encampment, AFTER the foot has healed. I'd personally rather a cadet be 100 percent than be "limited" at an encampment. The experience In my opinion is much more fulfilling if you are able to fully participate.

Major Williams

[xray328]

She successfully completed summer encampment, thanks for everyones help, especially those from the IL Wing.

[Sapper168]

How is the toe feeling?  Hope she had fun even with the pin and the pain.  Her Flight Sgt really took looking after her to heart. 

[xray328]

Toe is feeling much better thanks, hoping the pin comes out on Thursday.   She had a great time, said she can't wait to go back and plans on applying for ATS next year.

Yes, she couldn't say enough good things about her Flight Sgt, even got a picture of the two of them together on our way out.   

We're heading to the King of the Rock this weekend,  she's in full CAP mode

Thanks again for looking after her.

[Spam]

My two in CAP (C/LT and C/MSGT, were both on GAWG enc. staff) started back to school today with post-encampment crispness still unconsciously engrained. A week after, I still find them squaring corners and going to parade rest like trainees...

Glad your young lady made it through well!

V/R,
Spam

[TheSkyHornet]

Glad to hear she went and succeeded!  :clap:

Too often you don't hear follow-up to someone's question/issue. Appreciate keeping everyone informed