Encampment Availability

[Major Carrales]

And I have pitched an idea to the region and wing DCPs that NHQ - when processing the cadet's initial membership package - would "order" the cadet to encampment the following summer.  In essence, they would receive a letter from Gen Courter to the effect of:

"Greetings.  You have taken the first step along a path to incredible learning and adventure.  Congratulations!  You are hereby ordered to attend (*Your Wings*) encampment to be held (*date*) at (*location*) for advanced leadership training.  Failure to attend encampment will result in loss of eligibility for the coveted Billy Mitchell Award and cadet officer status.   If you are unable to attend your scheduled encampment, you must make alternative arrangements to attend another one.  Contact your squadron commander for furher information."

The theory is to create an expectation of encampment attendence during the first year, and impose an "opt-out" posture instead of the current "opt-in" methodology.

Like many of my ideas, this has not been met with wild enthusiasm.

With some encampments reaching into multiple hundred dollars I would be the first to denounce this.  For our cadet program to have the desired impact on the most cadets we can it has to present opportunities to the poor as well as the financially stable.

Unless smaller GROUP LEVEL encampments are brought to back into practice with solid standards, in large WINGS like TEXAS, the above policy would be folly.

[a2capt]

Did the ADA threat thread merge here?

Sounds like the Hock Store (thread) is done ..

[Major Carrales]

Did the ADA threat thread merge here?

Sounds like the Hock Store (thread) is done ..

Naw, the topic is still the same but has taken a tangent towards what to do with the Vangaurd "kick-back."

[PA Guy]

With some encampments reaching into multiple hundred dollars I would be the first to denounce this.  For our cadet program to have the desired impact on the most cadets we can it has to present opportunities to the poor as well as the financially stable.

Unless smaller GROUP LEVEL encampments are brought to back into practice with solid standards, in large WINGS like TEXAS, the above policy would be folly.

I'm also in a large wing.  Through the use of scholarships no cadet has ever been denied encampment due to cost.  Even if you have a group encampment how will that reduce costs other than perhaps transportation? I seriously doubt the quality of a wing wide encampment can be consistently produced on the group level. Besides how many groups have the ability, facilities and personnel to run an annual encampment? How many groups are in TXWG? Do you really think they would all be the same even with "solid standards"?

[BillB]

Last time I looked, Type B encampments were still authorized. Group or area encampments often can be held as YMCA, national Guard or even AF Bases for smaller groups, rather than multo humdred encampments. The regulation spells out what is requirered for a Type A or Type B encampment. so they are standardized. The type B encampment used to cost less since it was a weekend activity thus housing costs were lower. I never saw how since it was a multi weekend activity, but it ended up cheaper.

[Major Carrales]

With some encampments reaching into multiple hundred dollars I would be the first to denounce this.  For our cadet program to have the desired impact on the most cadets we can it has to present opportunities to the poor as well as the financially stable.

Unless smaller GROUP LEVEL encampments are brought to back into practice with solid standards, in large WINGS like TEXAS, the above policy would be folly.

I'm also in a large wing.  Through the use of scholarships no cadet has ever been denied encampment due to cost.  Even if you have a group encampment how will that reduce costs other than perhaps transportation? I seriously doubt the quality of a wing wide encampment can be consistently produced on the group level. Besides how many groups have the ability, facilities and personnel to run an annual encampment? How many groups are in TXWG? Do you really think they would all be the same even with "solid standards"?

There are 5 Groups in the Texas Wing each larger than New England, I would say that the standards of any encampment for a Group larger than some States and Commonwealths (in other words Wings) could pull it off.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The IL Spring Encampment is sometimes referred to as being "hosted by Group 22". Not quite the same as there are always folks from all over, but still. It's also a Type B activity as it's held on two weekends at Great Lakes Naval.

[PA Guy]

It's not about geographic size.  I did a stint as a dep group commander for a group that covered  about 20k sq miles,, larger than several states, and we were hard pressed to pull off one FTX/yr.  Not many groups have the personnel, resources and dedication to produce a consistent product year after yr. after yr.....  Heck some wings can't do it.

[Major Carrales]

It's not about geographic size.  I did a stint as a dep group commander for a group that covered  about 20k sq miles,, larger than several states, and we were hard pressed to pull off one FTX/yr.  Not many groups have the personnel, resources and dedication to produce a consistent product year after yr. after yr.....  Heck some wings can't do it.

And...?  Is that any reason why it should not be tried?  Is that any reason why it could not be meaningful?

I just think that it is unreasonable to ask cadets to travel 500 miles and pay near or over $200 to do an encampment which might have been able to have been more locally as part of a requirement.

[lordmonar]

Type A?  Type B?  Back in the 80's we had those...but not anymore.

There are encampments.....period.  They can be held over one week or three week ends.  No differences in types anymore.

[Spike]

^ So did a Cadet wear Class C's to a type A and Class A's to a type B, or did they wear Class B's to a type A, and Class C's to a type B??

It was nice when many Wings actually offered Encampments at various times during the year.  Today in competition between each other, Wings hold Encampments during the same week as neighboring Wings.

That strikes me as "underhanded and corrupt". 

[PA Guy]

The issue has never been not trying it because the regs certainly allow you to do that.  The issue is being able to produce a consistent product yr after yr that equals the TXWG encampment.  If you feel your group can pull it off then give it a shot.  Good encampments aren't as easy to pull off as many people think.

[Ned]

The most difficult thing to trying to round up enough qualified and experienced seniors to do the job.  Most wings don't have enough to do one encampment well, let alone several.

In terms of seniors, there really is economy of scale.

It has also been my experience that cadets (and parents) in large wings are already used to driving several hundred miles for activities.  Between corporate vehicles and car-pooling 'rents, it seems to work out.

YMMV.

[Fubar]

It was nice when many Wings actually offered Encampments at various times during the year.  Today in competition between each other, Wings hold Encampments during the same week as neighboring Wings.

I'm surprised the Wing Kings don't nip that competition by simply denying out-of-state participation requests.

[SarDragon]

And who loses in the long run there? The cadets. It would be a raw deal for Johnny in El Paso not to be able to attend encampment in Albuquerque instead of San Antonio, given equal opportunity

[Major Carrales]

And who loses in the long run there? The cadets. It would be a raw deal for Johnny in El Paso not to be able to attend encampment in Albuquerque instead of San Antonio, given equal opportunity

I agree...many people here fail to take into account the realities of distance and personal fiance.  Our cadet program offers opportunities to cadets...many of whom are poor or in families with poor situations.  Some of which will never be able to take full benefit of what CAP offers...you know, like the benefits that associate with the Mitchell Award that would greatly improve their station in life if they select military service, because an encampment is 1) over $200...which would be a half of a single parent's monthly check or 2) 800 miles away across a state when the family is not in good with an automobile.

The Texas Wing encampment is in Big Sandy, Texas.  In the past it has been in Paris, Texas.  Cadets from Brownsville and El Paso have to drive a great distance.  I can vouch for the Brownsville people for being able to host a quality encampment that would set newer higher standards...plus, they would have help from me and my personnel.   The same can be said of those in San Antonio.

Go get a map....SAN ANTONIO, CORPUS CHRISTI and BROWNSVILLE are all in GROUP V/TEXAS WING.  CAP survives and thrives here because we have the people who care.  Don't insult that effort with insinuations that we are somehow "less than able" to make a quality encampment happen.  Fact is, any Group in Texas Wing is ripe with personnel able to handle such efforts...only, we are separated by distance.

There have to be alternatives offered, if not...what the heck are we selling to the Middle School Initives and cadets in poor areas?  Would you have me tell some cadet that there is "no brass ring" for them because they are too poor, have no connections among the rich, cannot solicit for funds from the community or that the only activities of importance happen on the other side of the State?

[tdepp]

And who loses in the long run there? The cadets. It would be a raw deal for Johnny in El Paso not to be able to attend encampment in Albuquerque instead of San Antonio, given equal opportunity

I agree...many people here fail to take into account the realities of distance and personal fiance.  Our cadet program offers opportunities to cadets...many of whom are poor or in families with poor situations.  Some of which will never be able to take full benefit of what CAP offers...you know, like the benefits that associate with the Mitchell Award that would greatly improve their station in life if they select military service, because an encampment is 1) over $200...which would be a half of a single parent's monthly check or 2) 800 miles away across a state when the family is not in good with an automobile.

The Texas Wing encampment is in Big Sandy, Texas.  In the past it has been in Paris, Texas.  Cadets from Brownsville and El Paso have to drive a great distance.  I can vouch for the Brownsville people for being able to host a quality encampment that would set newer higher standards...plus, they would have help from me and my personnel.   The same can be said of those in San Antonio.

Go get a map....SAN ANTONIO, CORPUS CHRISTI and BROWNSVILLE are all in GROUP V/TEXAS WING.  CAP survives and thrives here because we have the people who care.  Don't insult that effort with insinuations that we are somehow "less than able" to make a quality encampment happen.  Fact is, any Group in Texas Wing is ripe with personnel able to handle such efforts...only, we are separated by distance.

There have to be alternatives offered, if not...what the heck are we selling to the Middle School Initives and cadets in poor areas?  Would you have me tell some cadet that there is "no brass ring" for them because they are too poor, have no connections among the rich, cannot solicit for funds from the community or that the only activities of importance happen on the other side of the State?

Don't mess with Texas! 

[PA Guy]

The Texas Wing encampment is in Big Sandy, Texas.  In the past it has been in Paris, Texas.  Cadets from Brownsville and El Paso have to drive a great distance.  I can vouch for the Brownsville people for being able to host a quality encampment that would set newer higher standards...plus, they would have help from me and my personnel.   The same can be said of those in San Antonio.

Go get a map....SAN ANTONIO, CORPUS CHRISTI and BROWNSVILLE are all in GROUP V/TEXAS WING.  CAP survives and thrives here because we have the people who care.  Don't insult that effort with insinuations that we are somehow "less than able" to make a quality encampment happen.  Fact is, any Group in Texas Wing is ripe with personnel able to handle such efforts...only, we are separated by distance.

Then stop talking about it and make it happen.

[Major Carrales]

The Texas Wing encampment is in Big Sandy, Texas.  In the past it has been in Paris, Texas.  Cadets from Brownsville and El Paso have to drive a great distance.  I can vouch for the Brownsville people for being able to host a quality encampment that would set newer higher standards...plus, they would have help from me and my personnel.   The same can be said of those in San Antonio.

Go get a map....SAN ANTONIO, CORPUS CHRISTI and BROWNSVILLE are all in GROUP V/TEXAS WING.  CAP survives and thrives here because we have the people who care.  Don't insult that effort with insinuations that we are somehow "less than able" to make a quality encampment happen.  Fact is, any Group in Texas Wing is ripe with personnel able to handle such efforts...only, we are separated by distance.

Then stop talking about it and make it happen.

Don't you think I've tried?  Don't you think others have expressed the same?  We run into the same arguments some of you have made on this thread.  Unless there is a change in policy that would allow for smaller intense encampments...it is fruitless.

[Pylon]

Don't you think I've tried?  Don't you think others have expressed the same?  We run into the same arguments some of you have made on this thread.  Unless there is a change in policy that would allow for smaller intense encampments...it is fruitless.

There's no policy on the minimum size of an encampment.  Unless by "smaller intense" you mean shorter in which case I'd have to vehemently disagree.  In the eight or so encampments I've been apart of, the training schedule is already pretty intense and a lot is crammed into the length of a regular encampment.  It's a constant struggle for the training staff to shuffle time, ensure requirements are all met, resolve unexpected but inevitable scheduling problems, and get everybody out the door with encampment credit.   It's already an "intense" training regimen at its full length.   I personally don't think you could maintain a quality product by shortening encampment "contact hours" by any significant length.
Edited to add: I just realized this was a thread derail in the Hock Shop thread.  Stand by for topic split...

[Major Carrales]

Don't you think I've tried?  Don't you think others have expressed the same?  We run into the same arguments some of you have made on this thread.  Unless there is a change in policy that would allow for smaller intense encampments...it is fruitless.

There's no policy on the minimum size of an encampment.  Unless by "smaller intense" you mean shorter in which case I'd have to vehemently disagree.  In the eight or so encampments I've been apart of, the training schedule is already pretty intense and a lot is crammed into the length of a regular encampment.  It's a constant struggle for the training staff to shuffle time, ensure requirements are all met, resolve unexpected but inevitable scheduling problems, and get everybody out the door with encampment credit.   It's already an "intense" training regimen at its full length.   I personally don't think you could maintain a quality product by shortening encampment "contact hours" by any significant length.
Edited to add: I just realized this was a thread derail in the Hock Shop thread.  Stand by for topic split...

No, length of the encampment is fine.  I woudl say that a week is not enough time, however reality dictates that adult staff, and cadet participation, could not swing more than a week due to school (lots of schools going to year round) and work matters.

My beef is the logistical nightmare of getting cadets to way distant encampments and the encampment steadily going beyond the threshold of personal finance.

[Ned]

Joe,

I don't think anyone would disagree that - all things being equal - we would rather that encampment be less expensive than more, and that transportation to encampment should never be a barrier to attendance.

Some wings offer need-based scholarships (like CAWG).  Some wings run shoe-string encampments on absolute bare-bones budgets (and are generously subsidized by seniors).

But we already compare favorably with other youth groups in terms of overall cost.  I haven't run my annual "encampment is cheap compared to Girls Scout camps" thread, but I'm sure you remember them.

We can do better, of course, and I am genuinely open to suggestions about how we can reduce costs and barriers to what I consider one of our best programs -encampment.

I know you are an encampment supporter, and neither of us wants to significantly change the leadership experience of encampment.  And while there is no set minimum size, we would probably also agree that there is such a thing as a "too small" encampment because that significantly changes our "encampment experience."

So, suggestions on how to make our current encampments more accessible?

(Please, be realistic in terms of resources.  "Just have 4 encampments per wing," for example, is not a helpful suggestion.)

[Major Carrales]

Joe,

I don't think anyone would disagree that - all things being equal - we would rather that encampment be less expensive than more, and that transportation to encampment should never be a barrier to attendance.

Some wings offer need-based scholarships (like CAWG).  Some wings run shoe-string encampments on absolute bare-bones budgets (and are generously subsidized by seniors).

But we already compare favorably with other youth groups in terms of overall cost.  I haven't run my annual "encampment is cheap compared to Girls Scout camps" thread, but I'm sure you remember them.

We can do better, of course, and I am genuinely open to suggestions about how we can reduce costs and barriers to what I consider one of our best programs -encampment.

I know you are an encampment supporter, and neither of us wants to significantly change the leadership experience of encampment.  And while there is no set minimum size, we would probably also agree that there is such a thing as a "too small" encampment because that significantly changes our "encampment experience."

So, suggestions on how to make our current encampments more accessible?

(Please, be realistic in terms of resources.  "Just have 4 encampments per wing," for example, is not a helpful suggestion.)

Texas Wing has, normally, two encampments a year.  When they are held in Austin, everyone drives the same distance...which is the minimal.  What happens is that the facility has either cancelled out or they have had to go to a relatively expensive place.  The Cost for the encampment three years ago was $75 dollars, now it is $200.  If this trend continues it will surpass $300 based on what I know to be happening with said facilities.

$200 is outrageous for some people to have to dish out and produces the "C/CMSgt for life" effect for some. Oh, I can have cadets going from business to businesses "begging" for it and label these solicitiations as "sponsorships..." but that tends to degrade.

I am told that the Texas Wing Encampments are meant to be self-sufficient getting no funding from Wing, Region or National.  Realistically, can a grant be written to off set costs?

As for distance, the only answer for large Wings is to have Group Level Encampments.  Ideally, every cadet has to go (if we assume that every cadet has it a a goal to make at least Mitchell); thus, every group with a sizable cadet population will eventually need an encampment.  Considering cadets have to drive over 500 miles in my Wing under the stauts quo...missing your Group Encampment would mean diving to a neighboring Group.

In an area of the United States where most children never venture more than 200 miles from home due to circumstance...mandating they attend an encampment that they cannot afford, reach or have in their locality strikes me as being "precarious."

[Eclipse]

^

[helper]

In SC our encampments cost approximately $100. Last year was $90.

We have also done weekend cadet training activities that cost $35.

One change we made was to prepare our own meals ( and they have been very good ).

I don't know the breakout but I imagine that food might represent a significant percentage of the cost.

[Slim]

MIWG has held it's encampment in the same place, Alpena CRTC, for the better part of 30 years.  In my time, there were only three exceptions, in the years right after the first Gulf war, we were unable to get in there.

If you look at the state of Michigan, most of the population (and thus the CAP units) are located in the southern third of the state.  But our encampment site is close to the very top of the lower peninsula; this translates to a four hour drive from Metro Detroit, five hours for points further south, six hours from Grand Rapids, and seven to eight hours from Battle Creek/Kalamazoo, and the two squadrons in the upper peninsula.  I live about an hour north of Detroit, and it's 212 miles from my driveway to the main gate at Alpena. 

We try to have as many of our corporate vehicles up there as we can, usually leaving enough downstate to cover missions (same with aircraft).  Since those 12 pax vans are coming north, fill them with cadets who have transportation issues.  Out of 12 available seats, you should be able to get 5-6 cadets in there, plus their gear.  May not be comfortable, but it's a free ride.

Nobody's denying that encampment costs are only going to go one way, up.  There's just no way around it.  Our encampment was $230 last year (I'll also wait for Ned's "This is what encampment costs vs a scout day camp" thread ), this year, it might go as high as $250 (more on the costs of an encampment later).  So, if you have members with financial difficulties, you (as a unit commander) need to get creative.  My unit tries to offer a scholarship if needed, we have the funds for that, if your unit doesn't, let me clue you into an incredibly easy fundraiser-Wreaths Across America.  My unit raises upwards of $1000 a year just selling wreaths.

Our encampment also offers need-based scholarships.  Unfortunately, we're self-sufficient, we can't offer unlimited scholarships.  We include a set amount of fees (usually for 10) in the budget for scholarships.  But, we also try to stretch those funds as far as we can by offering partial scholarships.  We also involve the cadet's unit, if they can include some funds to put towards that cadet.  Whatever encampment and the unit don't cover, the family has to cover. 

Another item regarding scholarships; we limit them to first-timers only.  One year, we awarded more scholarships to cadet staff and CLS students than first-timers.  Our thought is that a first time encampment is required at some point, serving on staff isn't, and there are other opportunities to meet the CLS/COS requirement for the Eaker award.  We also have some members who will also donate a scholarship anonymously, thus increasing the number of lives we can touch.

Another source we give to parents and cadet staff is your local service organizations.  Some of them have had great success in getting grants and donations from the VFW, American Legion, DAV, Marine Corps League, etc.  You'd be surprised what a well written letter and a presentation might get you.  We've had a few cadets get funding from the same source for multiple years.

I'm sure that any current or former encampment commander will agree with me when I say that the three biggest items in the encampment budget are your bed, your food, and the people who cook it.  Last year, the GLR-N encampment services bill from the base was in excess of $42,000 dollars.  That includes billeting (at $11 per person, per night), cost of food, and cost of the kitchen contractors.  We're not allowed to use our own cooks up there, the host base will only sign the dining facility over to a military Services or Force Support Squadron cooks, or you have to use their contractors.  If we could get military cooks on man-days, which is next to impossible, we could save about $16,000, and lower the costs. 

Do I like it?  No, $230/$250 is a lot of money, even for me.  I wish encampment still cost the same $60 it did in 1984 when I went to my first one.  I also wish that gas was still $.89 a gallon like it was when I was 16.  Times change, things cost more; it is what it is.

[Spike]

I believe Encampment is the most important activity in CAP for a Cadet.  The Squadron pays the entire cost of any Cadet going to Encampment.  Last year we has 12 Cadets go.  That is a piece of my operational budget.  When the Wing decides that location based on "awesomeness" is more important than costs associated with attendance I get upset.  Why pay more to rent billets when you have an facility that will offer free billets?  Why pay more for catered food, when the Army National Guard has offered to not only cook for you, but supply half the chow?

I think the USAF needs more involvement in carrying out an Encampment.  They are the ones who should be setting them up for us and providing "helpers".  Remember pre-1985 anyone?  Did it seem like the AF had more involvement in the Cadet Program then, or am I just going insane here................

[JayT]

I think the USAF needs more involvement in carrying out an Encampment.  They are the ones who should be setting them up for us and providing "helpers".  Remember pre-1985 anyone?  Did it seem like the AF had more involvement in the Cadet Program then, or am I just going insane here................

Where are the helpers gonna come from? Over stressed and over deployed Airmen and NCO's? A smaller number of bases and faculities in general? It be great if Air Force types could help with encampments, but its grossly un realisitic this day and age.

[Ned]

I think the USAF needs more involvement in carrying out an Encampment.  They are the ones who should be setting them up for us and providing "helpers".  Remember pre-1985 anyone?  Did it seem like the AF had more involvement in the Cadet Program then, or am I just going insane here................

Sure, I remember.  Individual bases were actually tasked by Big Blue to support encampments.  That meant the CAP base liaison officer actually had a budget and some accountability if things didn't go right.

I remember when Vandenberg AFB had to cancel on short notice, and the AF paid for charter buses to pick up and move the entire encampment to Nellis.

But times have changed.  The AF spun us off as a corporation a while ago.  And even if they hadn't, there's a war on.  (Or so they tell me.)

So waiting for the AF to step up and commit substantial funds and resources is in the "if pigs had wings" category.  I'm proud of our current encampment program, in part because wings do so much with so little and still deliver an excellent program.

[ZigZag911]

Here's a way USAF could help (or get DOD to do so): get military facilities to stop charging our members for use of quarters for encampments.

Paying for food is one thing, but paying to stay on an AF or other military base (which,after all, is a heck of a recruiting tool for the military) is unreasonable.

[Ned]

Here's a way USAF could help (or get DOD to do so): get military facilities to stop charging our members for use of quarters for encampments.

But of course they charge everybody to stay in quarters, even themselves.

It seems a little unlikely that they would let me stay in the BOQ for free when they would charge an AF officer $48/night.

The money has to come from somewhere.

[davidsinn]

Why does encampment need to be such a production? Why can't we get a bunch of GP large and toss them up in a state park? Why do we need barracks and mess halls and all that other crap?

[Ned]

Why does encampment need to be such a production? Why can't we get a bunch of GP large and toss them up in a state park? Why do we need barracks and mess halls and all that other crap?

I've played with this on and off for several years.  (Especially in years when it was hard to find a conventional facilty to host us.)

And it was significant logistical investment.  You've been around the block a few times and know that putting up and taking down a GP large (or even a medium) is a significant event requiring a dozen strong bodies and a good NCO.  Trying to come up with a dozen or so tents was challenging, and latrine facilities for a couple hundred folks in the field is not as easy as it sounds.  And you still need access to classroom and training sites, not to mention transportation to get to and from the field in timely manner.

Just trying to line up a couple hundred cots and footlockers, getting them to the field site, cleaning them and returning them was a frightening thought.  Gensets, lighting, a water buffalo, field showers, and yes, some sort of field mess.  (You really can't do MREs for a solid week.)

But yeah, if you could find a hundred elves to draw and  set up the infrastructure, and then clean up after you are done, I could imagine a fairly high-speed encampment in a field environment.  Tent inspections could be just as challenging as a barracks inspection.  The espirit could be awesome.

I even found a few facilities that had tent cities semi-permanently installed in remote areas (Camp Pendelton, for instance), but the availability of the tent cities was just as problematic as the hard sites.  IOW, they could cancel us for a higher-priority unit at the last moment just like the barracks.

I was eventually defeated by the logistics, and I used to be an Army battalion S4 who has supervised my fair share of field environments.

But I still think it could be done somehow.

[Eclipse]

The thing to bear in mind is that only a small percentage of our membership, both senior and cadets, have any interest in camping
or "roughing it", - we have adults who can't be put out to sleep in open bay barracks at NESA and Spring every year and have to make a big production out of going to the BoQ or a hotel, let alone living in the field.

There's nothing that says you can't do an encampment as an encampment, but as Ned says, the logistics of hots and cots for 100+ people are more challenging than if you can roll-up make your bunk and eat in a dining hall.  It would probably cost as much if not more to do it that way as well, as the places you can go camping for free with a hundred people are becoming fewer and fewer each year.

One of the points of an encampment is that it is a large-scale, out-of-home activity on purpose.  Making it "too local" would negate that
and rob cadets of the lessons of interacting with people they don't know.

And just like anything else, there is a baseline of staff required to do these things whether its 50 basics or 150, and we've found that you need at least 40-50 staffers (cadets and seniors) to be able to do things right and not kill everyone in the process.  Shrink below that
and you are probably reaching pretty hard to offer the correct experience, your span-of-control is stretched too thin, or you have too many staff positions and are bumping into each other looking for a way to have everyone participate meaningfully.

And with all that said, the biggest single issue is that most units and may cadets see encampments as a 1-time ticket punch root-canal they never has to do again - this year we have at least three Chiefs in the basic ranks - with that attitude, any wing with more than one encampment will be struggling to get the numbers each year to justify their existence.

What we need to do is require more encampments along the cadets' career - I say one the first calendar year and one per milestone, with at least 3 to Spaatz - the first year or two will be rough, but then there will be legit need for additional activities, and many more opportunities for cadets to serve in leadership positions.

[a2capt]

Why does encampment need to be such a production? .... Why do we need barracks and mess halls and all that other crap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EzpMVqtRKo


If you had to do this much in a state park, or practically from scratch..


They say it takes a year to plan encampment here..

[Eclipse]

Why does encampment need to be such a production? .... Why do we need barracks and mess halls and all that other crap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EzpMVqtRKo


If you had to do this much in a state park, or practically from scratch..


They say it takes a year to plan encampment here..

Video says it was removed for content violations, however the note about planning an encampment is spot-on.  We have a 6-month+ planning cycle for specifics to each event, but after 17 years much of it is boilerplate.  I'd say at least a year to ramp-up a new one.

[a2capt]

Funny, it still shows it to me.. the video is uploaded a few times on there, too. It's just royally crummy looking, thought I'd try it again. Must be some new sniffing they have on it.

It's the 1999 CAWG encampment video that has made the rounds in the past.

My rather quick note should have included, they say it takes a year to do it here.. if you added that getting the facilities meant some national park and 400 something "tents" ... and the infrastructure to feed that many people three times a day..

You had better be well into planning 2012 by now.

[tdepp]

Why does encampment need to be such a production? .... Why do we need barracks and mess halls and all that other crap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EzpMVqtRKo


If you had to do this much in a state park, or practically from scratch..


They say it takes a year to plan encampment here..

Video says it was removed for content violations, however the note about planning an encampment is spot-on.  We have a 6-month+ planning cycle for specifics to each event, but after 17 years much of it is boilerplate.  I'd say at least a year to ramp-up a new one.

Any event that involves children or teens needs extensive planning for safety, content, and logistical reasons.  Events just do not "happen."  They take lots of people working behind the scenes to make it look easy when folks "just show up."  Anyone who thinks sending 50 kids into the wilderness or even a state park near an urban area for a week with no planning is asking for chaos at best and probably disaster or worse. 

As one of my buddies used to say, those who fail to plan plan to fail.  Or maybe it was Coach John Wooden who said that.  Anyway, most of us don't plan enough or soon enough.  And my thanks to those of you who plan and work at encampments to give Cadets a great and safe experience.

[jimmydeanno]

But I still think it could be done somehow.

You know...

It may be a nightmare for US to set it up, but there are some bases that have them already set up.  Like Ft. Pickett, VA has a FOB set up for training purposes.  They have the tents, chow hall, water buffalos, showers, latrines, berms, watchtowers, barracks (with bunks inside), etc already set up.

I wonder what the possibilities of using one for 10 days would be...

Also, setting up the GP tents doesn't have to be that hard.  One of the encampments that NIN ran, he had each flight set up theirs as a team building project 

[davidsinn]

I'm not talking about not planning. I talking about thinking outside the box.

Let's look at 52-16

CHAPTER 5 - ENCAMPMENTS
5-1. Introduction.
a. Goals of Encampments. Encampments are designed to provide CAP members the opportunity to:
(1) Apply knowledge gained in the cadet and senior programs to practical situations.
(2) Develop a greater understanding of CAP and Air Force missions and capabilities.
(3) Develop their leadership potential.
(4) Enhance their interpersonal skills.
(5) Develop time-management skills.
(6) Develop a spirit of teamwork.
(7) Inspire a sense of discipline.
( Learn how to overcome challenges and succeed.
(9) Enhance their local unit's Cadet Program.
(10) Aid in retention and motivation.
(11) Receive an introduction to the military.

And the requirements:

Figure 5-1. Encampments: Minimum Course Content & Curriculum Overview.
The encampment curriculum may be delivered via any format – tours, briefings, guest speakers, informal lectures, job shadowing, duty performance, simulations, games, etc. – making use of the particular strengths and resources of the host installation and local aerospace industry. Interactive, experiential methods of education and training are preferred to static, lectured-based instruction.
The encampment curriculum is integrated with the Air Force's force development program. Under each training block listed below, the corresponding universal aerospace leader competency is identified for informational purposes.
1. AIR FORCE FUNDAMENTALS – 10 Hours
1a. Structure & Mission of the United States Air Force: Cadets will be introduced to the six core competencies of the United State Air Force: air and space superiority, global attack, rapid global mobility, precision engagement, information superiority, and agile combat support. They should become acquainted with the missions of nearby Air Force units and how the total force is organized, to include CAP's relationship to the Air Force as its Auxiliary.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Operations: Air Force Core Competencies
1b. Aerospace Power: Cadets explore the unique characteristics of aerospace power - speed, precision, range, lethality, and freedom of maneuver - through the lens of local aerospace organizations, particularly Air Force flying units. Additionally, cadets will learn how aerospace power contributes to national security.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Perspective: Aerospace Fundamentals
Aerospace Strategy: National Military Strategy; Efficacy and Use of Aerospace Power
1c. Aerospace Heritage: Cadets will become acquainted with the historical artifacts, events, or individuals who shaped the aerospace environment and affected America's achievements in air and space.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Perspective: Air Force Heritage and Culture
2. CIVIL AIR PATROL FUNDAMENTALS – 10 Hours
2a. Emergency Services: Cadets will receive an introduction to CAP's emergency services mission, which may include actual emergency services training. Opportunities for cadet participation in emergency services should be emphasized.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Not applicable
2b. Aerospace Education: Learning activities will be conducted to help cadets better understand the lessons found in the cadet aerospace textbooks. Full use should be made of the experts and facilities available at the host installation and in the local community.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Technology: Basic / Specialized Knowledge; Aerospace Environment
2c. Cadet Program: Experienced CAP leaders will provide an overview of opportunities available through continued participation in the Cadet Program. The overview will include information about scholarships, national and local cadet special activities, drill teams, color guards, and the Cadet Program's usefulness as a gateway to an aerospace career. The life skills and intangible benefits afforded by the Cadet Program will be emphasized. Practical advice on how to advance and make the most of the cadet experience should also be included. Cadets will also be made aware of the dangers of drug abuse, consistent with Drug Demand Reduction (DDR) program guidelines.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Not applicable
Continued on next page
CAPR 52-16 1 OCTOBER 2006 45
Figure 5-1. Encampments: Required Minimum Course Content (Continued)
3. LEADERSHIP & THE CADET ETHIC – 16 HOURS
3a. Moral Leadership: The encampment will immerse youth in the cadet experience, accenting the traits that distinguish cadets from their non-cadet peers. Cadets will learn to develop discipline, teamwork, and accept personal responsibility. Throughout the encampment, the Air Force Core Values will be related to the various activities and used to develop the moral character of the cadets. Moral leadership forums with the chaplain or MLO will be conducted.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Character: Integrity / Honesty; Selflessness; Respectfulness; Decisiveness; Responsible and Self Disciplined; Loyalty; Compassion; Cooperativeness; Resilience
3b. Physical Fitness: Cadets will participate in fitness activities such as team sports, calisthenics, and exercise games that will motivate them to develop a lifelong habit of regular exercise. Sportsmanship will be encouraged, as well as cadets' efforts to achieve their personal best. Cadets will be instructed how to safely participate in fitness activities. Additionally, the importance of physical fitness will be related to Air Force missions, civilian aerospace careers, and a cadet's total well-being.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Leadership: Health and Wellness
3c. Drill & Ceremonies: Drill and ceremonies will be used to build self-discipline, confidence, and teamwork. Cadets will practice military customs and courtesies; they will learn to value politeness and respect as positive character traits that are cornerstones of civil society. Cadets proficient in basic drill should receive instruction on how to lead an element or flight in drill.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Perspective: Air Force Heritage and Culture
Aerospace Leadership: Teambuilding
3d. Creative Thinking: Cadets will learn how to think creatively and resolve problems in various educational settings. Cadets will be given opportunities to complete team leadership problems, participate in a leadership reaction course or obstacle course if available, or role play as if faced with an aerospace, emergency services, leadership, or ethical problem. Further, cadets serving on the encampment staff should participate in special workshops or receive mentoring from seasoned leaders who can help them improve their problem-solving capabilities.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Leadership: Promote Continuous Development of Airmen and Organization; Communications; Teambuilding; Visionary Outlook
4. AEROSPACE CAREER EXPLORATION – 4 HOURS
4a. Career Opportunities: By personally interacting with Air Force members and civilian aerospace leaders, cadets will receive an overview of various aerospace career opportunities. Careers outside the cockpit must be included, such as engineering, aircraft maintenance, air traffic control, meteorology, avionics, computer science, etc.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Technology: Aerospace Environment
Air Force Organization: Air Force as Total Force
4b. Career Requirements & Counseling: Cadets will be introduced to the aptitudes and educational requirements necessary to enter the careers showcased at the encampment. Representatives of the various career fields should explain typical career paths and opportunities cadets will have to enter that profession. The immediate educational commitments and life choices cadets must make in order to fulfill their career goals will be emphasized.
Universal Aerospace Leader Competencies:
Aerospace Technology: Aerospace Environment
Air Force Organization: Air Force as Total Force
Minimum Total Hours in Encampment Curriculum: 40

I'm not seeing anything in there that requires special facilities. Nothing says you can't use the same space you sleep in to host a class.

What I'm picturing in my mind is a group of tents set up in a state park with some porta potties off a little ways. You have speakers come in for the classes. The wing would own the tents, lockers and cots so it can host encampments anywhere they can get open ground. I would see it as 2 weekends like GL Spring encampment as you wouldn't have enough or adequate shower facilities for everyone.

Our costs are in things we have to beg for. Why can't we be a little more self sufficient? For the cost of one airplane you can buy a lot of cots and tents and spread them around.

[Ned]

I'm not seeing anything in there that requires special facilities. Nothing says you can't use the same space you sleep in to host a class.

What I'm picturing in my mind is a group of tents set up in a state park with some porta potties off a little ways. You have speakers come in for the classes. The wing would own the tents, lockers and cots so it can host encampments anywhere they can get open ground. I would see it as 2 weekends like GL Spring encampment as you wouldn't have enough or adequate shower facilities for everyone.

Our costs are in things we have to beg for. Why can't we be a little more self sufficient? For the cost of one airplane you can buy a lot of cots and tents and spread them around.

Well, I suppose you could have an encampment entirely in a parking lot somewhere, but I think we lose a little bit of the encampment experience.   

Classes benefit from being held in a classroom where everyone can get out of the weather and sit down in enough comfort to pay attention to the instructor.  The field makes it difficult to run projectors, computers, copiers, etc. to provide learning materials to students.  Trying to take notes on a clipboard in a rainstorm just isn't conducive to learning The Structure and Mission of the USAF, Aerospace Power, or Aerospace Career Orientation (to name a few.)

Seriously, you can sleep about 15-20 people in a GP medium (which is 16x 32 feet), max.  Trying to hold classes, meetings, and inspections all in the same tent for a week would create a substantially different (and I would argue diminished) encampment experience than what we have done for the last half century or so.

And they are not cheap.  Look on eBay and you will find GP mediums for $350-500, depending on quality and whether the poles are included.  It weighs about 250 pounds without the poles.  And they take a fair amount of maintenance to repair the inevitable holes and zippers.

Once they get wet, they are a significant challenge to dry and store without mold setting in.  Normally, you can just let it dry in the sun for a few days, but if it rains on the last day of encampment . . .

Trying to find a hundred or so footlockers on the market would be a challenge, it looks like new ones are over $150, used ones average $50 or so.  Take a moment and try to think where your wing could store 100 footlockers, 100 cots, and a couple tons of tents. 

Again, I'm not trying to beat you up here.  I would love to try a tent-based encampment, but it is not realistic to think that the average wing has $10-15,000 to buy used tents and equipment, and then store them for use one week a year.  Screening them from Uncle Sam is also a challenge - I have hung around DRMO fairly often in the last 10 years or so (my national guard unit used to drill across an alley from one), and very, very few serviciable tents or footlockers come through for screening.  After all, if it was servicable, they wouldn't be screening it.

I wholeheartedly agree that we need to keep thinking "outside the box."  We ask nothing less of our cadets.  But part of the process is evaluating the ideas against criteria of cost and feasibility.

To JimmyDeano - I have specifically looked at the pre-existing FOBs, etc. that are set up for training at several bases.  I can only agree that they would be great for this kind of of thing, and are our best bet to attempt a field-type encampment.  But as I mentioned, they suffer from the same drawbacks as some of the hard facilities; they were set up to train units, and they can be hard for CAP to book because so many military units use them to train, especially in the summer.  And even if we can book them, we have a high risk of being "bumped."

It's a Risk Assessment thing, I guess.

[davidsinn]

I'm not seeing anything in there that requires special facilities. Nothing says you can't use the same space you sleep in to host a class.

What I'm picturing in my mind is a group of tents set up in a state park with some porta potties off a little ways. You have speakers come in for the classes. The wing would own the tents, lockers and cots so it can host encampments anywhere they can get open ground. I would see it as 2 weekends like GL Spring encampment as you wouldn't have enough or adequate shower facilities for everyone.

Our costs are in things we have to beg for. Why can't we be a little more self sufficient? For the cost of one airplane you can buy a lot of cots and tents and spread them around.

Well, I suppose you could have an encampment entirely in a parking lot somewhere, but I think we lose a little bit of the encampment experience.   

Classes benefit from being held in a classroom where everyone can get out of the weather and sit down in enough comfort to pay attention to the instructor.  The field makes it difficult to run projectors, computers, copiers, etc. to provide learning materials to students.  Trying to take notes on a clipboard in a rainstorm just isn't conducive to learning The Structure and Mission of the USAF, Aerospace Power, or Aerospace Career Orientation (to name a few.)

Seriously, you can sleep about 15-20 people in a GP medium (which is 16x 32 feet), max.  Trying to hold classes, meetings, and inspections all in the same tent for a week would create a substantially different (and I would argue diminished) encampment experience than what we have done for the last half century or so.

And they are not cheap.  Look on eBay and you will find GP mediums for $350-500, depending on quality and whether the poles are included.  It weighs about 250 pounds without the poles.  And they take a fair amount of maintenance to repair the inevitable holes and zippers.

Once they get wet, they are a significant challenge to dry and store without mold setting in.  Normally, you can just let it dry in the sun for a few days, but if it rains on the last day of encampment . . .

Trying to find a hundred or so footlockers on the market would be a challenge, it looks like new ones are over $150, used ones average $50 or so.  Take a moment and try to think where your wing could store 100 footlockers, 100 cots, and a couple tons of tents. 

Again, I'm not trying to beat you up here.  I would love to try a tent-based encampment, but it is not realistic to think that the average wing has $10-15,000 to buy used tents and equipment, and then store them for use one week a year.  Screening them from Uncle Sam is also a challenge - I have hung around DRMO fairly often in the last 10 years or so (my national guard unit used to drill across an alley from one), and very, very few serviciable tents or footlockers come through for screening.  After all, if it was servicable, they wouldn't be screening it.

I wholeheartedly agree that we need to keep thinking "outside the box."  We ask nothing less of our cadets.  But part of the process is evaluating the ideas against criteria of cost and feasibility.

To JimmyDeano - I have specifically looked at the pre-existing FOBs, etc. that are set up for training at several bases.  I can only agree that they would be great for this kind of of thing, and are our best bet to attempt a field-type encampment.  But as I mentioned, they suffer from the same drawbacks as some of the hard facilities; they were set up to train units, and they can be hard for CAP to book because so many military units use them to train, especially in the summer.  And even if we can book them, we have a high risk of being "bumped."

It's a Risk Assessment thing, I guess.

The storage thing is easy. Do you know how much space is in a semi trailer? My wing has two. Granted both of them need bulldozed as they are not even close to road worthy. Storage is easy. I think the money to purchase the equipment could be secured through a grant. As for the technology we got along with out it before, I think we could do it again. The way encampments are run now is like school. Let's try and get back to our roots. We spend entirely too much time indoors doing things. Let's get outside and do things.

[Ned]

The storage thing is easy. Do you know how much space is in a semi trailer? My wing has two. Granted both of them need bulldozed as they are not even close to road worthy. Storage is easy. I think the money to purchase the equipment could be secured through a grant. As for the technology we got along with out it before, I think we could do it again. The way encampments are run now is like school. Let's try and get back to our roots. We spend entirely too much time indoors doing things. Let's get outside and do things.

I suspect we are in substantial agreement on the important parts - I think we can have a quality encampment in a tent city environment.  Tell you what, you write and secure that grant and get all the stuff and I will be there for the encampment.  It will be fun.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool Job, Crummy Job Title)

[davidsinn]

The storage thing is easy. Do you know how much space is in a semi trailer? My wing has two. Granted both of them need bulldozed as they are not even close to road worthy. Storage is easy. I think the money to purchase the equipment could be secured through a grant. As for the technology we got along with out it before, I think we could do it again. The way encampments are run now is like school. Let's try and get back to our roots. We spend entirely too much time indoors doing things. Let's get outside and do things.

I suspect we are in substantial agreement on the important parts - I think we can have a quality encampment in a tent city environment.  Tell you what, you write and secure that grant and get all the stuff and I will be there for the encampment.  It will be fun.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool Job, Crummy Job Title)

Sir, if I knew how to do that my unit would have an Lper that was younger than I am. 

[ZigZag911]

Here's a way USAF could help (or get DOD to do so): get military facilities to stop charging our members for use of quarters for encampments.

But of course they charge everybody to stay in quarters, even themselves.

It seems a little unlikely that they would let me stay in the BOQ for free when they would charge an AF officer $48/night.

The money has to come from somewhere.

That AF officer is gettting a housing allowance or some sort of perdiem if he is TDY.

[ZigZag911]

Why does encampment need to be such a production? Why can't we get a bunch of GP large and toss them up in a state park? Why do we need barracks and mess halls and all that other crap?

NJW did just that in the 80s, including a CAP run mess facility...talk about a PRODUCTION.

[Major Carrales]

The storage thing is easy. Do you know how much space is in a semi trailer? My wing has two. Granted both of them need bulldozed as they are not even close to road worthy. Storage is easy. I think the money to purchase the equipment could be secured through a grant. As for the technology we got along with out it before, I think we could do it again. The way encampments are run now is like school. Let's try and get back to our roots. We spend entirely too much time indoors doing things. Let's get outside and do things.

I suspect we are in substantial agreement on the important parts - I think we can have a quality encampment in a tent city environment.  Tell you what, you write and secure that grant and get all the stuff and I will be there for the encampment.  It will be fun.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool Job, Crummy Job Title)

Long live the tent city.  If we could do that, there are literally hundreds of facilities where such an activity could take place as opposed to a hand full.

[Nathan]

Tent city sounds like a cool activity, but looking at the goals of encampment, I'm not really sure if we can run a better encampment, or even one of the same quality, without real facilities.

Plus, how many 12-15 year old basic cadets do you think are going to handle living in a tent for a week, when even the coziest, best-facilitated encampments end up with the inevitable homesickness?

No, most cadets have a hard enough time dealing with the stress of caffeine and sugar withdrawl, getting up early, not having access to Facebook, and having to replace their parents with a teenaged cadet sergeant. Weather is a massively-stressful ordeal to those who haven't had to deal with it for an extended period of time, and never really getting a break from it is going to push cadets further than they need to go for no real enhancement of their learning experience.

[Rotorhead]

Tent city sounds like a cool activity, but looking at the goals of encampment, I'm not really sure if we can run a better encampment, or even one of the same quality, without real facilities.

Considering that 40 hours of classroom instruction are mandated for Encampments by NHQ, I'd rather see those 40 hours done in a facility suited for the job.

[ZigZag911]

From about 1981-1992 or 93, NJW had no choice but to conduct its Basic Encampments in the field; there were no military billeting facilities available in state with sufficient space (the main bases were McGuire AFB, Fort Dix, and Lakehurst Naval Air Station, which have been united in a mega "joint base" in recent years).

We held the annual encampment using two bivouac sites @ Ft Dix, busing (CAP still had buses then, and McGuire supplemented ours with buses & drivers from their motor pool) cadets into McG for tours, orientation flight, and so forth.

Many classes were conducted at the bivouac site, with cadets sitting on the ground.

We had a CAP run field kitchen, complete with a squadron commander as director of the mess and a group commander and the wing CV as his assistant cooks -- all lt colonels, which led to some raised eyebrows when Army non-coms would pop in to take advantage of the cup of coffee one or another of the senior staff had offered!

We set up a command post complete with radio message center (HF & VHF)...in fact, over the years we ran more than a few missions, including a REDCAP or two, right from that tent!

Much of the equipment was borrowed from NJ National Guard.

We used Army field shower facility and McG's base gym.

Sand got in EVERYTHING!

Everyone learned a lot about personal hydration, field sanitation of mess gear, and how one set up the interior of a GP medium or small for inspection!

The cadets LOVED it!!! Attendance varied based on membership spikes and dips, generally 100-125 basics, plus about 50 staff (senior & cadet). One year, including our wing GSAR school, we surpassed 300 total participants,

Some of us older folks endured it at first...after a couple of years, we began to take a sort of warped pleasure in the fact that NJW was doing something few other wings would even attempt. It was VERY labor intensive: much of senior and all cadet staff showed up about 3 days early to set up, stayed a day or two late to break down and return gear to the Guard...these staff members ended up dedicating 12-14 days to an 8 day encampment.

McGuire built a couple of training facilities with housing about 15 years ago, and the encampment moved back indoors.