Face versus Hace etc...

Started by xray328, September 28, 2015, 06:50:16 PM

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xray328

So, I've been using the terms I used was taught as a cadet such as "right hace" and "forward harch".  Seems like that's the way they taught/commanded it in basic training too.  I saw a reference to the 36-2203 which clearly states otherwise though.  Although figure 2.2 of the 36-2203 contradicts itself.

I was taught to use the hace/harch because it sounds much more distinct and projects better when calling commands from the diaphragm.  I've been instructing my cadets to do the same thing. To me (who cares right?), "forward march" sounds sloppy and not as crisp as "forward harch" does.  That being said, I want to teach the cadets the proper way to call commands.

I also came across this which contradicts the 36-2203:

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/Drill_for_Seniors_334C59EBF321A.pdf

Is using harch and hace a cardinal sin?

Our squadron was lacking in drill when I came on scene, I'm not sure if they were teaching themselves or what.  There's a couple jrotc cadets (army) so maybe they taught the rest of the cadets? I just want to make sure it's being taught the correct way. Squadron doesn't seem to of made drill much of a priority.

kwe1009

Follow 36-2203.  Until the CAP D&C reg is posted, this is the source document for CAP drill. 

THRAWN

#2
Quote from: kwe1009 on September 28, 2015, 06:55:03 PM
Follow 36-2203.  Until the CAP D&C reg is posted, this is the source document for CAP drill.

What he said. Ned, any word on if/when a CAP DC manual is coming out?

This site was put together by a JROTC guy, blue rope type, from NJ: http://www.drillpad.net/DPdig.htm

I've used the resources here a number of time and found them, in conjunction with the regs, very helpful.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
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Capt Thompson

To answer your question, the correct term is march, and when inflected using your diaphram properly, is pronounced harch. Go ahead, try it.....let out a big puff of air from deep in your diaphram, while commanding march loudly. Sounds like harch.

This was the same in Army JROTC and CAP when I was a cadet. Proper command voice uses the diaphram, so most execution commands sound like they start with an H even if they don't.

Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

TheSkyHornet

Very, very, very, very, very, very common to hear variations of military commands in CAP, especially when it comes to cadets leading drill. While there is a national standard, and CAP-correct way to pronounce the words and sound off, a lot of cadets go to encampment and come back with "what we're taught at encampment..."

Encampment is essentially a cadet version of boot camp where non-standard becomes standard, but it doesn't stay standard at the fleet. That can be good and bad. Good in a sense is that it gets people out of their comfort zone and into situations where they need to adapt. Bad because they come back with a lot of dirty habits and teach back at the squadron incorrect formats because "we were told at encampment..." My response is always "I don't care what you were taught at encampment; it's wrong, and you will do it right." Then pull out the manual. A lot of cadets like to use Air Force drill guides as well, which is not a CAP manual, and is technically not applicable.

In most senior circles, you won't see a lot of drill, and the extent of drill usually seems to come from former military experience, and still falls outside of the CAP way of doing things. A lot of people have a hard time unlearning how they were taught, myself included at times. Sometimes I have to stop and say "Wait, that isn't right..." and remember the CAP way.

For me, personally, hearing "Hut-2-3-4" makes my ears bleed. I can't stand it. But that's how it should be I suppose.

Keep in mind, there is a difference in teaching drill and performing drill. The drill guide is for teaching it and calling it during formal (official) drill/formation. It does not necessarily prevent it from being called differently during informal situations, like doing a road march or marching from the hangar across the parking lot to the bus stop. But you're going to confuse people if they can't understand what you're saying. The drill guide is clear on that.

On occasion, I'll call cadence when we're walking a longer distance and mix it up with a left/right call, but that's something the cadets know not to do. Unfortunately, it's the only way the seniors can stay in step when they march -___-

As 1st Lt Thompson said, use your diaphragm properly to change "March" to "Harch," but it needs to be loud and clear so people understand. If "Left Face" becomes "eeeee-Ate" you're probably going to see someone turn the wrong way. I find true cadence to be a skill. It can be taught, but not everyone can do it naturally. Some people are really good at calling cadence, and others make me cringe. Takes practice.

JC004

That document is so old.  I don't see much point in it. 

THRAWN

Quote from: JC004 on September 28, 2015, 08:28:10 PM
That document is so old.  I don't see much point in it.

It came out about a year after I joined. I remember that we laughed about it. A lot.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
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CAPDCCMOM

I have spent the last two months "unteaching" Encampment Drill and Ceremony. We are planning to do a complete Saturday Drill Day for our Unit. I have several brand new Cadets, we will take them from Achievement 1 all the way to Achievement 4.

I think that many of the Cadre at the Encampment had seen "Full Metal Jacket" and "Heartbreak Ridge" just one time too many. I have also had to correct Senior Members and Members of Command Staff on how to call Drill. I tell them, '"if it's not in 36-2203, I don't want to hear it." I love Drill & Ceremony when called and performed well. Otherwise it is a very cringe worthy at best, and a travesty at worst

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: JC004 on September 28, 2015, 08:28:10 PM
That document is so old.  I don't see much point in it.

Common theme.

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on September 28, 2015, 08:33:59 PM
I have spent the last two months "unteaching" Encampment Drill and Ceremony. We are planning to do a complete Saturday Drill Day for our Unit. I have several brand new Cadets, we will take them from Achievement 1 all the way to Achievement 4.

I think that many of the Cadre at the Encampment had seen "Full Metal Jacket" and "Heartbreak Ridge" just one time too many. I have also had to correct Senior Members and Members of Command Staff on how to call Drill. I tell them, '"if it's not in 36-2203, I don't want to hear it." I love Drill & Ceremony when called and performed well. Otherwise it is a very cringe worthy at best, and a travesty at worst

Another common theme.

I think a lot of it stems from people not being able to teach what they've learned, and it gets all distorted in the teaching process and because the norm, until someone else teaches what they learned and it's nowhere close to the original lesson. Then you get these "stupid" pamphlets that have to break everything down Barney Style and everyone wonders "Where the heck did this come from? We never learned this."

Personally, I'm a huge fan of ditties when it comes to training, but it's extremely important for people to know when to turn off the ditties and stay locked on, and don't take them to encampment with you except in your mind.

We're revamping our training program as we progress into 2016, so it might be a good chance for senior members to sit in on cadet training and learn basic drill commands. You find a lot of seniors will stand around and say "We should have a senior member drill class" and they hardly ever do it. I think it's a scapegoat to pull the "I don't really have to know it as a senior member." I get really tired of hearing that on numerous things. We have a couple of seniors who are pretty big guys but they still do PT with the cadets to set an example that they're participating. I applaud them.

PA Guy

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on September 28, 2015, 08:33:59 PM
I have spent the last two months "unteaching" Encampment Drill and Ceremony. We are planning to do a complete Saturday Drill Day for our Unit. I have several brand new Cadets, we will take them from Achievement 1 all the way to Achievement 4.

I think that many of the Cadre at the Encampment had seen "Full Metal Jacket" and "Heartbreak Ridge" just one time too many. I have also had to correct Senior Members and Members of Command Staff on how to call Drill. I tell them, '"if it's not in 36-2203, I don't want to hear it." I love Drill & Ceremony when called and performed well. Otherwise it is a very cringe worthy at best, and a travesty at worst

No jodies, innovative drill......etc?

CAPDCCMOM

Jodies and Innovation.....Absolutely!!!! After you have the basics down and can teach and perform equally.

It must be fun, but it must be taught properly or it will look bad on Civil Air Patrol as a whole. Just my opinion

kwe1009

Quote from: THRAWN on September 28, 2015, 07:41:06 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on September 28, 2015, 06:55:03 PM
Follow 36-2203.  Until the CAP D&C reg is posted, this is the source document for CAP drill.

What he said. Ned, any word on if/when a CAP DC manual is coming out?

This site was put together by a JROTC guy, blue rope type, from NJ: http://www.drillpad.net/DPdig.htm

I've used the resources here a number of time and found them, in conjunction with the regs, very helpful.

The CAP D&C manual is in final draft now.  We are hoping to have it published around November.  As far as calling commands, it is a copy and paste out of 2203.

coudano

afman 36-2203 sez... (attachment)

can't attach images, i guess...

abdsp51

As been said many times.  Use the AFMAN and you can not go wrong period.  I have run into improper drill at the unit, group and wing level, and every time I have challenged it.  AFMAN 36-2203 should be the only and only drill source for use. 

I have given this manual to every cadet staff that I have overseen and have had to say on numerous times if it doesn't come out of that book then it's wrong no ifs, ands or buts about it. 

I ran into this at encampment when I asked the Flt CC and Flt Sgt where they learned their D&C and the answer was universal "In my unit by so and so who was taught by so and so..."  When they were asked what source was used I received a deer in the headlight look. 

At my current unit the staff and I will have a back to basics night where drill will be retaught and taught correctly per the AFMAN. 

Bottom line AFMAN needs to be the Bible across the board for D&C.

TheSkyHornet

I'm going to add that this is another one of those areas CAP could benefit from by not putting out a bunch of documentation on this one subject. They should have 36-2203 as the only reference, and not a bunch of subsequent guides.

If you look up CAP drill and ceremony, you get the pocket guide, the drill instruction guide, ceremony instructor guide, honor guard program manual, and a bunch of powerpoint slides, not to mention all of the bad gouge floating around.

One manual. That's all it needs. It already exists because CAP even specifies that 36-2203 is the source for D&C. Too much information being spread across the arena when the sole document used for reference already exists.

JC004

Why is there a new CAP Drill manual coming out?

PHall

Quote from: JC004 on September 29, 2015, 03:40:34 PM
Why is there a new CAP Drill manual coming out?

Because it will be tailored for our needs and not the needs of Air Force BMT at Lackland.

kwe1009

Quote from: JC004 on September 29, 2015, 03:40:34 PM
Why is there a new CAP Drill manual coming out?

Actually it is not a new CAP Drill manual, it is the first CAP Drill manual as far as I can tell.  Very much needed too.

SarDragon

I have in front of me an olde CAPM 50-3. It's the original Leadership Laboratory Manual, circa 1965. Chapters 12-21 are the D&C portion, which is essentially a rebranded AF D&C manual, with text and graphics related to CAP instead of AF. For the most part, our D&C manual is unchanged since then.

Most of the text, and most of the content graphics are the same ones in use in 1965. The movements, and how to do them, haven't changed. Some of the content has been removed, like the general orders of the interior guard, and the special ceremonies, but everything else is still there.

For the most part, I don't think CAP really needs a separate manual. It isn't worth the time and money to reinvent that wheel.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

PHall

Quote from: SarDragon on September 30, 2015, 03:24:44 AM
I have in front of me an olde CAPM 50-3. It's the original Leadership Laboratory Manual, circa 1965. Chapters 12-21 are the D&C portion, which is essentially a rebranded AF D&C manual, with text and graphics related to CAP instead of AF. For the most part, our D&C manual is unchanged since then.

Most of the text, and most of the content graphics are the same ones in use in 1965. The movements, and how to do them, haven't changed. Some of the content has been removed, like the general orders of the interior guard, and the special ceremonies, but everything else is still there.

For the most part, I don't think CAP really needs a separate manual. It isn't worth the time and money to reinvent that wheel.

YMMV.

About 80% plus of the manual will be cut and pasted from the 36-2203. But stuff like flights with only 3 elements is the stuff that will be added.
Plus there will be many more "good" pictures.

coudano

Quote from: PHall on September 30, 2015, 05:17:29 AM

Plus there will be many more "good" pictures.

Wait, this would be a CAP pub???

CAPDCCMOM

CAP PUB would that be a place get Fish & Chips and a Pint? ;D

THRAWN

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on September 30, 2015, 03:26:36 PM
CAP PUB would that be a place get Fish & Chips and a Pint? ;D

Nope, it's a DDR violation.  8)

Even though they used to hand out can coolies with the DDR logo on them....that always made for good conversation at a Dave Matthews concert...
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
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SarDragon

Quote from: THRAWN on September 30, 2015, 03:36:47 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on September 30, 2015, 03:26:36 PM
CAP PUB would that be a place get Fish & Chips and a Pint? ;D

Nope, it's a DDR violation8)

Even though they used to hand out can coolies with the DDR logo on them....that always made for good conversation at a Dave Matthews concert...

Depends on the content of the pint, now, doesn't it?  >:D
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: SarDragon on September 30, 2015, 03:45:15 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on September 30, 2015, 03:36:47 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on September 30, 2015, 03:26:36 PM
CAP PUB would that be a place get Fish & Chips and a Pint? ;D

Nope, it's a DDR violation8)

Even though they used to hand out can coolies with the DDR logo on them....that always made for good conversation at a Dave Matthews concert...

Depends on the content of the pint, now, doesn't it?  >:D


The secret is in the frosting...but I'll never tell  :-X

PHall

Quote from: coudano on September 30, 2015, 03:01:39 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 30, 2015, 05:17:29 AM

Plus there will be many more "good" pictures.

Wait, this would be a CAP pub???

Well, National won't be taking the pictures. So the chances of "good" pictures has gone up a lot!