Cadating

[tht1gurlflightsarg]

So is it against the regulations for cadets to be in a relationship? 

[abdsp51]

Depending on whom the cadets are dating it is against regulations.  Also it is not necessarily a good thing for cadets to date cadet staff etc.

[Cadetter]

I don't see the clause in the new 52-16 anymore... am I missing it?

I know of a cadet who was dating her first sergeant (she was flight sergeant), although they're no longer dating now and are in different squadrons (for unrelated causes), but there didn't seem to be any problem. But they handled it well.

[Tim Medeiros]

CAPR 52-10 has the answer to your question, specifically chapter 2 para 2-2.

[Garibaldi]

Cadet+cadet=ok

Cadet+cadet nco/officer=bad, but things happen

Cadet+senior=NO WAY. BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN. Even if the cadet is 20 years old and the SM is 18, the answer is still no on that.

It's just a bad idea to date another cadet in the same unit, just like work. There's a saying somewhere out there, "don't crap where you eat". In other words, mind your business, personal life is personal.

It makes for an uncomfortable environment when things go south. Just say no. I think we've all been there and done that.

[dwb]

It's best to keep romance out of CAP activities altogether. The best cadet dating relationship I've seen, I didn't even know was a relationship because they hid it so well when they were at CAP.

Also, a general rule is to never date up or down in your chain of command. For example, if you're an element leader, don't date your flight sergeant or a member of your element.

[Cadetter]

CAPR 52-10 has the answer to your question, specifically chapter 2 para 2-2.

Thanks. I knew I saw it somewhere something I was reading recently.

So is it against the regulations for cadets to be in a relationship? 

The short answer is no, but some are discouraged.

[Angus]

Cadet+senior=NO WAY. BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN. Even if the cadet is 20 years old and the SM is 18, the answer is still no on that.

My personal favorite when it comes to this two cadets are dating and one goes Senior and the other doesn't.

[MajorM]

I always enjoy watching TLC students who were not cadets, when we discuss this topic.  You say definite dating cadets and immediately they react with "No!" and " Yuck!".  This is because they have a 40 year old guy and a 17 year old female in their mind's eye.

Then I posit the dating cadet couple who are 20 & 19.  One turns 21.  Now what?  Of course the policy is the same, but you see a softening of their attitude.

It's not always as easy a situation as one might think.

[Angus]

I always enjoy watching TLC students who were not cadets, when we discuss this topic.  You say definite dating cadets and immediately they react with "No!" and " Yuck!".  This is because they have a 40 year old guy and a 17 year old female in their mind's eye.

Then I posit the dating cadet couple who are 20 & 19.  One turns 21.  Now what?  Of course the policy is the same, but you see a softening of their attitude.

It's not always as easy a situation as one might think.

I think with the couple with one in transition it's always the "grey area"  yes the regs say they shouldn't.  But at the same time we're not going to break a couple up over something like this. 

[MajorM]

No you're not, but you have to find a way to exist within the reg.  whether one turns senior or one temporarily leaves CAP.  Unfortunately there really aren't good answers.

[Cadetter]

My unit had two cadets a while back (2dLt - 19 and LtCol - 19), who were dating, and the 2dLt transferred the senior - no one in CAP was even aware there was a relationship until we were invited to the wedding a year later (when both were seniors).

[Garibaldi]

I always enjoy watching TLC students who were not cadets, when we discuss this topic.  You say definite dating cadets and immediately they react with "No!" and " Yuck!".  This is because they have a 40 year old guy and a 17 year old female in their mind's eye.

Then I posit the dating cadet couple who are 20 & 19.  One turns 21.  Now what?  Of course the policy is the same, but you see a softening of their attitude.

It's not always as easy a situation as one might think.

I think with the couple with one in transition it's always the "grey area"  yes the regs say they shouldn't.  But at the same time we're not going to break a couple up over something like this.

They do always have the option of quitting, then rejoining when they both are seniors. Oops, excuse me....OFFICERS.

[Angus]

No you're not, but you have to find a way to exist within the reg.  whether one turns senior or one temporarily leaves CAP.  Unfortunately there really aren't good answers.

I've seen it where the couple were from two different units.  If there was a joint activity one of them would not attend so that would cut down  on the interaction while "on the job". 

[Eclipse]

I always enjoy watching TLC students who were not cadets, when we discuss this topic.  You say definite dating cadets and immediately they react with "No!" and " Yuck!".  This is because they have a 40 year old guy and a 17 year old female in their mind's eye.

Then I posit the dating cadet couple who are 20 & 19.  One turns 21.  Now what?  Of course the policy is the same, but you see a softening of their attitude.

It's not always as easy a situation as one might think.

I think with the couple with one in transition it's always the "grey area"  yes the regs say they shouldn't.  But at the same time we're not going to break a couple up over something like this.

They do always have the option of quitting, then rejoining when they both are seniors. Oops, excuse me....OFFICERS.

No, Seniors is the correct term.  "Officers" has never been a correct or approved generic for non-cadet members.

[MajorM]

I've seen it where the couple were from two different units.  If there was a joint activity one of them would not attend so that would cut down  on the interaction while "on the job".

Though that doesn't relieve the conflict if they are dating and one is a senior.  Having one quit is the only solution if they wish to maintain the relationship.  Unfortunately that counters the goal of retaining our older, executive phase cadets.  And often this reality leaves a bad taste in their mouths.

[lordmonar]

No you're not, but you have to find a way to exist within the reg.  whether one turns senior or one temporarily leaves CAP.  Unfortunately there really aren't good answers.

That's where good leaders use their common sense and make the "best" decision for all involved.

[MajorM]

I would normally agree with you except that the rule is very bright line.  Especially after the new 52-10. 

Yes, it's typically a transient condition and will hopefully resolve soon enough.  And you don't need to be a private detective and dig, dig, dig.... But leaders also can't ignore bright line rule violations that are presented to them.

[Eclipse]

No you're not, but you have to find a way to exist within the reg.  whether one turns senior or one temporarily leaves CAP.  Unfortunately there really aren't good answers.

That's where good leaders use their common sense and make the "best" decision for all involved.

The "best" decision for all involved is to simply not date within CAP - learning the lesson of not mixing work
with your dating life early will serve them well.  For every "success" story, there's 1.7526438 Million fiery crashes.

Between 12 and 21, the odds of any relationship lasting more then a few months, maybe a couple years, are very small,
and once you've crossed that bridge, you still have to go back to the squadron, and in many, many cases, the odds
are one or both cadets quits CAP soon after the crash.

There is zero advantage to the organization, and significant risk to both the organization and the cadets.

The regs may say "I guess if you have to" but the advice should always be "100% no".

[Flying Pig]

This is great training for our future adults.  Dating co-workers rarely ends well in real life.  Learn that now.

[Garibaldi]

No you're not, but you have to find a way to exist within the reg.  whether one turns senior or one temporarily leaves CAP.  Unfortunately there really aren't good answers.

That's where good leaders use their common sense and make the "best" decision for all involved.

The "best" decision for all involved is to simply not date within CAP - learning the lesson of not mixing work
with your dating life early will serve them well.  For every "success" story, there's 1.7526438 Million fiery crashes.

Between 12 and 21, the odds of any relationship lasting more then a few months, maybe a couple years are very small,
and once you've crossed that bridge, you still have to go back to the squadron, and in many, many cases, the odds
are one or both cadets quits CAP soon after.

There is zero advantage to the organization, and significant risk to both the organization and the cadets.

The regs may say "I guess if you have to" but the advice should always be "100% no".

A very good point. Say Cadet Amy is dating Cadet Sheldon. They're happy, they go to different schools so they don't see each other much. They are excellent cadets, ground team, drill team, all that good stuff. Cadet Amy is a flight sergeant under Cadet Sheldon. They seem to work well together.

Then, the inevitable happens. They go to encampment, and somehow Cadet Amy's feelings get hurt because the new flight sergeant under Cadet Sheldon, Cadet Penny, is nursing a huge crush on him. Cadet Sheldon is flattered, and somehow Cadet Amy gets it in her head that Cadet Sheldon is cheating on her with Cadet Penny, and dumps him in front of God and everyone.

Back at home, the two don't work so well anymore, and the flight suffers due to the unresolved tension between the two. Eventually, Cadet Amy decides it might be in everyone's best interest that she quit, much to the detriment and shock of her flight. Morale suffers for a while until the dust settles. Then, Cadet Penny transfers in suddenly, and Cadets Leonard, Raj, and Howard go bat crap crazy trying to impress her, while Cadet Sheldon watches on in what can only be described as bemusement and a little sadness that his time with Cadet Amy is at an end, and eventually quits himself, devoting his time to theoretical physics.

Yes, it can happen.

[AirAux]

Sounds like spoken from experience Garibaldi...

[Tim Medeiros]

No you're not, but you have to find a way to exist within the reg.  whether one turns senior or one temporarily leaves CAP.  Unfortunately there really aren't good answers.

That's where good leaders use their common sense and make the "best" decision for all involved.

The "best" decision for all involved is to simply not date within CAP - learning the lesson of not mixing work
with your dating life early will serve them well.  For every "success" story, there's 1.7526438 Million fiery crashes.

Between 12 and 21, the odds of any relationship lasting more then a few months, maybe a couple years are very small,
and once you've crossed that bridge, you still have to go back to the squadron, and in many, many cases, the odds
are one or both cadets quits CAP soon after.

There is zero advantage to the organization, and significant risk to both the organization and the cadets.

The regs may say "I guess if you have to" but the advice should always be "100% no".

A very good point. Say Cadet Amy is dating Cadet Sheldon. They're happy, they go to different schools so they don't see each other much. They are excellent cadets, ground team, drill team, all that good stuff. Cadet Amy is a flight sergeant under Cadet Sheldon. They seem to work well together.

Then, the inevitable happens. They go to encampment, and somehow Cadet Amy's feelings get hurt because the new flight sergeant under Cadet Sheldon, Cadet Penny, is nursing a huge crush on him. Cadet Sheldon is flattered, and somehow Cadet Amy gets it in her head that Cadet Sheldon is cheating on her with Cadet Penny, and dumps him in front of God and everyone.

Back at home, the two don't work so well anymore, and the flight suffers due to the unresolved tension between the two. Eventually, Cadet Amy decides it might be in everyone's best interest that she quit, much to the detriment and shock of her flight. Morale suffers for a while until the dust settles. Then, Cadet Penny transfers in suddenly, and Cadets Leonard, Raj, and Howard go bat crap crazy trying to impress her, while Cadet Sheldon watches on in what can only be described as bemusement and a little sadness that his time with Cadet Amy is at an end, and eventually quits himself, devoting his time to theoretical physics.

Yes, it can happen.

This seems familiar for some reason and I just can't quite put my finger on it 

[Cadetter]

We had a cadet staff member who had a crush on her next-up in the chain, and she accidentally let him find out about it but he didn't care for her in that way. He got embarrassed and there was some tension there for a while.

[Flying Pig]

I think Amy, Sheldon and Penny have been with every agency I have worked for    But nobody I know studies physics thats for sure.  So must not be the same people!

[THRAWN]

No you're not, but you have to find a way to exist within the reg.  whether one turns senior or one temporarily leaves CAP.  Unfortunately there really aren't good answers.

That's where good leaders use their common sense and make the "best" decision for all involved.

The "best" decision for all involved is to simply not date within CAP - learning the lesson of not mixing work
with your dating life early will serve them well.  For every "success" story, there's 1.7526438 Million fiery crashes.

Between 12 and 21, the odds of any relationship lasting more then a few months, maybe a couple years are very small,
and once you've crossed that bridge, you still have to go back to the squadron, and in many, many cases, the odds
are one or both cadets quits CAP soon after.

There is zero advantage to the organization, and significant risk to both the organization and the cadets.

The regs may say "I guess if you have to" but the advice should always be "100% no".

A very good point. Say Cadet Amy is dating Cadet Sheldon. They're happy, they go to different schools so they don't see each other much. They are excellent cadets, ground team, drill team, all that good stuff. Cadet Amy is a flight sergeant under Cadet Sheldon. They seem to work well together.

Then, the inevitable happens. They go to encampment, and somehow Cadet Amy's feelings get hurt because the new flight sergeant under Cadet Sheldon, Cadet Penny, is nursing a huge crush on him. Cadet Sheldon is flattered, and somehow Cadet Amy gets it in her head that Cadet Sheldon is cheating on her with Cadet Penny, and dumps him in front of God and everyone.

Back at home, the two don't work so well anymore, and the flight suffers due to the unresolved tension between the two. Eventually, Cadet Amy decides it might be in everyone's best interest that she quit, much to the detriment and shock of her flight. Morale suffers for a while until the dust settles. Then, Cadet Penny transfers in suddenly, and Cadets Leonard, Raj, and Howard go bat crap crazy trying to impress her, while Cadet Sheldon watches on in what can only be described as bemusement and a little sadness that his time with Cadet Amy is at an end, and eventually quits himself, devoting his time to theoretical physics.

Yes, it can happen.

It can also happen on the SM side as well. And the results are just as bad....from experience...

[Eclipse]

It can also happen on the SM side as well. And the results are just as bad....from experience...

100% agree, and the adults should leave it at home as well.

Like anything else that requires "discretion" people with maturity are able to handle these things with discretion and decorum,
however unfortunately we have a lot of middle-aged high school kids, not to mention 40 year old adult cadets for whom
discretion, let alone decorum, isn't even in their lexicon.

[MajorM]

And we all know teenagers listen to the guidance of their elders when it comes to affairs of the heart

[Eclipse]

True, but at least you can have an "I told you so." chambered for the disciplinary hearing.

[a2capt]

Yes, it can happen.

s/Flight Sergeant/C/CC and C/XO and.. yes. It has happened. Left unchecked, it can pretty much gut your whole program. Ultimately, I can't stop it, but if I even get the inkling that it's having -any- effect on the other cadets, it will be dealt with to the extent that we can so that it does not.

[Salty]

Forming relationships is completely understandable when like-minded people spend so much time together.  I saw it quite a bit when I was deployed overseas in the USAF.  However, take the advice of those of us who have been in those situations and don't do it.

BTW, theoretical physics is much easier than dealing with intra-CAP relationships as a cadet.

[Cadetter]

Not too long ago we did "What's it to You" (from CAPP 265-2) for a Character Development discussion - it was interesting, to say the very least. The cadet commander said "it" needed to stop ASAP, but others disagreed.

[Johnny Yuma]

This is great training for our future adults.  Dating co-workers rarely ends well in real life.  Learn that now.

FASCINATING...

I'll have to tell my wife, we've been together over 20 years and married for 16.

give you 3 guesses where WE met?

[PHall]

This is great training for our future adults.  Dating co-workers rarely ends well in real life.  Learn that now.

FASCINATING...

I'll have to tell my wife, we've been together over 20 years and married for 16.

give you 3 guesses where WE met?

Guess you missed that "rarely" part.

[SilentPhantom]

I think that a bit of rank difference can sometimes be a good thing. It gives the cadets less reason to interact, which leaves less room for fraternization at meetings/activites. However, there are of course possible adverse effects...

[Spartan]

I have seen people involved in cadet relationships that have been professional, and kept their relationship out of CAP.  They were strong leaders and did their job with skill that would make you think they had gone to school for it.  They knew how to resolve conflict out of sight of the rest of the unit. They also kept their public display of affection to a minimum.

For every cadet relationship I encounter like this, I see ten that are detrimental to everyones' morale. Cadets, before you are the one who says "I am the exception" consider, if your relationship with your fellow cadet ends, can you act professionally and responsibly when everything ends? My experience is even senior members have problems with this.

My interpretation of the regs is that people who are disproportionate in age (a 13 year old and 17 year old), or rank (element member and c\cc), or grade (c/amn and c/maj) is a no-go. I would strongly discourage cadets who are direct or indirect supervisor and subordinate from engaging in a romantic relationship.

[Johnny Yuma]

I always enjoy watching TLC students who were not cadets, when we discuss this topic.  You say definite dating cadets and immediately they react with "No!" and " Yuck!".  This is because they have a 40 year old guy and a 17 year old female in their mind's eye.

Then I posit the dating cadet couple who are 20 & 19.  One turns 21.  Now what?  Of course the policy is the same, but you see a softening of their attitude.

It's not always as easy a situation as one might think.

I think with the couple with one in transition it's always the "grey area"  yes the regs say they shouldn't.  But at the same time we're not going to break a couple up over something like this.

But there are some, even a few on this board, who believe that this is cadet abuse and/or an undue influence on the junior.

Yet many of these people stand mute when the 60 y.o. Colonel makes repeated passes at the brand new 18 y.o. SMWOG with the huge, um, tracts of land. 

[Johnny Yuma]

I've seen cadating fail miserably. I've also seen just as many marriages come of it as well.

I've also seen a few cadet/senior relationships occur under the radar, including one involving a gentleman who later became a Wing King.
It's amazing how everyone knows about these relationships except the Luddites who go out of their way to find trouble that's not there.

[Eclipse]

^ It's amazing how people can ignore clear rules because they "know better".

The decision making skills of that "gentlemen" clearly indicated he had zero business being a Wing Commander.

Those who knew about it were duty-bound to report it.

[lordmonar]

I always enjoy watching TLC students who were not cadets, when we discuss this topic.  You say definite dating cadets and immediately they react with "No!" and " Yuck!".  This is because they have a 40 year old guy and a 17 year old female in their mind's eye.

Then I posit the dating cadet couple who are 20 & 19.  One turns 21.  Now what?  Of course the policy is the same, but you see a softening of their attitude.

It's not always as easy a situation as one might think.

I think with the couple with one in transition it's always the "grey area"  yes the regs say they shouldn't.  But at the same time we're not going to break a couple up over something like this.

But there are some, even a few on this board, who believe that this is cadet abuse and/or an undue influence on the junior.

Yet many of these people stand mute when the 60 y.o. Colonel makes repeated passes at the brand new 18 y.o. SMWOG with the huge, um, tracts of land.

Mute.......or just don't care?    Two adults doing adult things.....may not like it....but there you go.   You got to give me something more then old guy making passes at you girl.

You got sexual harassment?  You got undue influence?  You got favoritism?  You got some Quid Pro Quo?
     

[Johnny Yuma]

^ It's amazing how people can ignore clear rules because they "know better".

The decision making skills of that "gentlemen" clearly indicated he had zero business being a Wing Commander.

Those who knew about it were duty-bound to report it.

Whatever. It wasn't flaunted on CAP time and unless you were among their circle of friends you'd never have known about it, at least until the wedding invites went out. Seems more than a few folks believe that common sense trumps CAP policy, especially off CAP time.

CAP's rules and regs apply when I'm volunteering for CAP. Any other time I could care less. Of all the groups and organizations I volunteer for CAP seems to be the only one who thinks I pay them so they can enact rules that I must abide by in my private life. Granted, they all expect a certain behavior that reflects positively on the group, but telling folks who they can and cannot associate with, even of legal age, based on nothing more than membership status after hours goes well into MYOB territory.

[Eclipse]

^ It's amazing how people can ignore clear rules because they "know better".

The decision making skills of that "gentlemen" clearly indicated he had zero business being a Wing Commander.

Those who knew about it were duty-bound to report it.

Whatever. It wasn't flaunted on CAP time and unless you were among their circle of friends you'd never have known about it, at least until the wedding invites went out. Seems more than a few folks believe that common sense trumps CAP policy, especially off CAP time.

What they believe is irrelevant.  It's not their call to make.

People want the benefit of CAP opportunities, but not the hard choices and sacrifice that might accompany them.

They also want their leaders to be held to a high standard of behavior, then make choices themselves which
break simple rules of trust and character, while still complaining about leadership failures.

Hypocrisy is clearly easier then sincerity.

[Johnny Yuma]

^ It's amazing how people can ignore clear rules because they "know better".

The decision making skills of that "gentlemen" clearly indicated he had zero business being a Wing Commander.

Those who knew about it were duty-bound to report it.

Whatever. It wasn't flaunted on CAP time and unless you were among their circle of friends you'd never have known about it, at least until the wedding invites went out. Seems more than a few folks believe that common sense trumps CAP policy, especially off CAP time.

What they believe is irrelevant.  It's not their call to make.

People want the benefit of CAP opportunities, but not the hard choices and sacrifice that might accompany them.

They also want their leaders to be held to a high standard of behavior, then make choices themselves which
break simple rules of trust and character, while still complaining about leadership failures.

Hypocrisy is clearly easier then sincerity.

CAP opportunities? What's that? I do know I've made sacrifices of time, money and effort and can guaran-effing-tee you that CAP got more from me than I got from them. Everyone i know in CAP, short of the cadets, can say that. So don't give that line of horse crap.

Butting out of people's lives outside of CAP is also easier than enacting regs that demands members snoop around other member's social activities outside CAP in the name of protecting a Federal corporation from lawsuits.

[Eclipse]

CAP opportunities? What's that? I do know I've made sacrifices of time, money and effort and can guaran-effing-tee you that CAP got more from me than I got from them. Everyone i know in CAP, short of the cadets, can say that. So don't give that line of horse crap.

Butting out of people's lives outside of CAP is also easier than enacting regs that demands members snoop around other member's social activities outside CAP in the name of protecting a Federal corporation from lawsuits.

We're literally talking about cadets, who are on the receiving end of the opportunities and also deserving of protection.

Or did you forget that in your haste to espouse?

[LSThiker]

CAP opportunities? What's that? I do know I've made sacrifices of time, money and effort and can guaran-effing-tee you that CAP got more from me than I got from them. Everyone i know in CAP, short of the cadets, can say that. So don't give that line of horse crap.

It is a common phrase that cadets get more out of the organization than they put in it while seniors put in more but less out of it.  The more senior members put in, the more cadets get in return.

but telling folks who they can and cannot associate with, even of legal age, based on nothing more than membership status after hours goes well into MYOB territory.

And yet teachers cannot date students even if they are legally adults.  I have worked for corporations that won't allow managers and employees to have romantic relations.  You agreed to the rules of the organization, if you do not like them, no one is preventing you from leaving.  The dating prohibitions were put into place to protect cadets, a group that because of their membership status, deserves protection. 

[Johnny Yuma]

CAP opportunities? What's that? I do know I've made sacrifices of time, money and effort and can guaran-effing-tee you that CAP got more from me than I got from them. Everyone i know in CAP, short of the cadets, can say that. So don't give that line of horse crap.

It is a common phrase that cadets get more out of the organization than they put in it while seniors put in more but less out of it.  The more senior members put in, the more cadets get in return.

but telling folks who they can and cannot associate with, even of legal age, based on nothing more than membership status after hours goes well into MYOB territory.

And yet teachers cannot date students even if they are legally adults.  I have worked for corporations that won't allow managers and employees to have romantic relations.  You agreed to the rules of the organization, if you do not like them, no one is preventing you from leaving.  The dating prohibitions were put into place to protect cadets, a group that because of their membership status, deserves protection.

RealMilitary commanders are prohibited from dating or having relationships with subordinates for the same reasons, yet a CAP Wing Commander can make a play at the newest 18 year old SMWOG with 3 days in the organization and there's no policy forbidding it. I'm more worried about these relationships than I am the over 18 cadet/senior dating, to be honest.

There is no logical argument anyone can make that can explain how the CPP protects a 19 or 20 year old cadet from a 18 year old TFO or even SMWOG that they are voluntarily involved in a relationship with. The only excuse you can possibly give is "it's policy", which is to surrender your common sense to some lawyers.

[Eclipse]

An 18 year old TFO is an adult both legally and in the eyes of CAP. 

A 20 year old cadet, is not.

[LSThiker]

yet a CAP Wing Commander can make a play at the newest 18 year old SMWOG with 3 days in the organization and there's no policy forbidding it. I'm more worried about these relationships than I am the over 18 cadet/senior dating, to be honest.

And I do not agree with this either. So why do not you propose a new rule to your leadership to amend this problem and ban these as well?  Or would that also be "telling folks who they can and cannot associate with, even of legal age, based on nothing more than membership status after hours goes well into MYOB territory"?

[Storm Chaser]

An 18 year old TFO is an adult both legally and in the eyes of CAP. 

A 20 year old cadet, is not.

Actually, a 20 year old cadet may be considered an adult "in the eyes of CAP", depending on the jurisdiction (cf. CAPR 52-10, Para. 1-2.h). A 20 year old cadet is not, however, an "adult leader" within CAP context.

Age and/or legal status are not the reasons CAP gives for prohibiting senior members from dating cadets. The reason given is stated clearly in CAPR 52-10:

Because adult leaders have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, adult leaders will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances.

[Garibaldi]

Quick solution. Stop the cadet program at 18. QED. This will stop a LOT of issues. We'd still have 18 YO FO/TFO/SFO, and raise the age requirement for a Spaatz turning SM to 22. There are no 21 year old Captains anywhere that I know of. Of course, I don't get out much, but still.

I see a lot of problems with this, too. Someone joins at 17 and has 0 time to complete anything worthwhile. I get it. There is no quick solution.

[Ned]

Quick solution.

Before summarily tossing nearly a thousand cadets out of a highly successful program, perhaps you could clearly identify the problem(s) your "solution" would fix.  And explain more clearly how your proposed fix will solve the problem(s) you've identified in some measurable way.

[Eclipse]

Quick solution. Stop the cadet program at 18. QED. This will stop a LOT of issues. We'd still have 18 YO FO/TFO/SFO, and raise the age requirement for a Spaatz turning SM to 22. There are no 21 year old Captains anywhere that I know of. Of course, I don't get out much, but still.

I see a lot of problems with this, too. Someone joins at 17 and has 0 time to complete anything worthwhile. I get it. There is no quick solution.

I am not even clear on your point here.

Joining at 17 a motivated cadet can make Spaatz.

There are have/been plenty of 21 year old Captains.  Most Spaatz cadets get promoted nanoseconds after eligibility.
Around me, most were in college, so their impact day-to-day was negligible, but we've had a couple who were...well..."learning".

[Garibaldi]

Quick solution. Stop the cadet program at 18. QED. This will stop a LOT of issues. We'd still have 18 YO FO/TFO/SFO, and raise the age requirement for a Spaatz turning SM to 22. There are no 21 year old Captains anywhere that I know of. Of course, I don't get out much, but still.

I see a lot of problems with this, too. Someone joins at 17 and has 0 time to complete anything worthwhile. I get it. There is no quick solution.

I am not even clear on your point here.

Joining at 17 a motivated cadet can make Spaatz.

There are have/been plenty of 21 year old Captains.  Most Spaatz cadets get promoted nanoseconds after eligibility.
Around me, most were in college, so their impact day-to-day was negligible, but we've had a couple who were...well..."learning".

Mainly it was a joke. The 21 year old Captain was supposed to be a reference to the Real Military. The second sentence would be a reference to my idea. Joining at 17 with a cutoff of 18 wouldn't work. The fastest they would be able promote would put them at C/Msgt and no further.

[Eclipse]

Mainly it was a joke. The 21 year old Captain was supposed to be a reference to the Real Military. The second sentence would be a reference to my idea. Joining at 17 with a cutoff of 18 wouldn't work. The fastest they would be able promote would put them at C/Msgt and no further.

Ah!  Bach!

I dunno, a good compromise would probably be to move them to some kind of Senior-Lite Member status because they
are legally adults, but still allow them to progress as cadets, perhaps as an option based on attaining Mitchel
before 18 or something similar.

This would open them up to the real-world supervisory and staff roles most could probably handle,
but it has it's own list of challenges as well.

The BSA has the same issue, if you're not in by about 15, you have no chance of making Eagle, but that doesn't
necessarily preclude some from joining just for the experience (though admittedly that's pretty rare).

[Storm Chaser]

I had a cadet that joined shortly after turning 17. Now, at 18, she'll be eligible for the Mitchell Award next month. There are many opportunities in CAP for a motivated, determined young man or woman, even at 17.

[GrimReaper]

Ah!  Bach!

Nice M*A*S*h reference

[BillB]

Eclipse...Your idea of Senior-lite was exactly what CAP used to have under the STP Program. These members wore warrent officer grade insignia and could still progress in the cadet program while working and progressing as senior members. The Flight Officer grade epaulets are a joke with 1,2 or 3 small stripes. Seniors still consider them super-cadets since they don't wear bars.

[Spaceman3750]

In my experience other seniors treat FO's exactly how they act. Act like a senior, get treated like a senior. Act like a cadet, get treated like a cadet.

[Eclipse]

In my experience other seniors treat FO's exactly how they act. Act like a senior, get treated like a senior. Act like a cadet, get treated like a cadet.

This has been my experience as well.