CG Auxiliary nosing into CAP "territory"

[Luis R. Ramos]

Guys, if you are so upset that the V is used in the military for Valor, then submit to Ned a change in the regulations for designation for the V on the ribbon to mean...

VOLUNTEER!




After all, that is how and why we are doing this...

There! This thread continues as an uniform thread!!!

[LSThiker]

Why couldnt they use bronze? They did....

When did CAP use a bronze "V" device?

The disaster relief ribbon was created in 1982.  Prior to that it was the Civil Defense Ribbon, which was created in 1964.  From 1964 to 1970, the design was red, white, blue horizontal stripes with a CD circle in the middle.  From 1970 to 1982, it was the same design as the now DR ribbon, but with a CD circle in the middle.  In 1990, a "V" device was authorized for those that participated in a Presidential Disaster.  That "V" device has always been silver.   

there are also O and M devices. Why not one of those? Or a numeral? Or nothing?

The "V" device was chosen as it means "valor".  The use of a "V" device was meant that you displayed "valor" in time of a presidential disaster (whether we agree that is valor or not is an entirely different topic of debate). 

A bronze "V" has a special place in the military since it was first used in 1945.  As you know, it means either "participation in acts of heroism involving conflict with an armed enemy" (Army); "exposed to personal hazard during direct participate in combat operations" (Navy; USMC; USCG); or "being placed in harms way during contingency deployment operations" or "a unit that directly supported combat actions {Outstanding Unit Awards}"(USAF).

For this reason a bronze "V" on a CAP ribbon may look too similar to a bronze "V" on a military ribbon.  Therefore, it was decided to use silver as it would be distinctive enough.  As I said earlier, not creating a new device would keep the production cost down as companies already had molds for the "V" device.  Especially since not many of them would be created (or at least at the time). 

Why not "M" device, because if I recall correctly that was created in 1996 when  an Executive Order was signed allowing the "M" device on the Armed Forces Reserve Medal (even thought that medal was created in 1950). 

Why not "O" device, I do not know why.  Not really sure when that was created. 

Why not any other device?  Because someone made a decision.

[TheSkyHornet]

I'd like to chime in....

Considering military ribbons may be worn on the CAP uniform for those members who have served in the military, a "V" device on a military ribbon indicates Valor, and a "V" device indicating Volunteer on a CAP ribbon on the same rack just seems inappropriate and disrespectful to me, regardless of the color.

CAP already has membership ribbons for your volunteer service. There are ribbons for community service. There are ribbons for gallantry in CAP, to include lifesaving. These ribbons already exist to distinguish heroism. If you want to receive more ribbons for your heroic actions, go play video games. Don't be a part of a volunteer organization with the intent to win medals. Your peers will recognize your accomplishments. But all that aside, don't act like we're doing some valorous task on Tarawa. Just do your job and move on.

[THRAWN]

Why couldnt they use bronze? They did....

When did CAP use a bronze "V" device?

The disaster relief ribbon was created in 1982.  Prior to that it was the Civil Defense Ribbon, which was created in 1964.  From 1964 to 1970, the design was red, white, blue horizontal stripes with a CD circle in the middle.  From 1970 to 1982, it was the same design as the now DR ribbon, but with a CD circle in the middle.  In 1990, a "V" device was authorized for those that participated in a Presidential Disaster.  That "V" device has always been silver.   

there are also O and M devices. Why not one of those? Or a numeral? Or nothing?

The "V" device was chosen as it means "valor".  The use of a "V" device was meant that you displayed "valor" in time of a presidential disaster (whether we agree that is valor or not is an entirely different topic of debate). 

A bronze "V" has a special place in the military since it was first used in 1945.  As you know, it means either "participation in acts of heroism involving conflict with an armed enemy" (Army); "exposed to personal hazard during direct participate in combat operations" (Navy; USMC; USCG); or "being placed in harms way during contingency deployment operations" or "a unit that directly supported combat actions {Outstanding Unit Awards}"(USAF).

For this reason a bronze "V" on a CAP ribbon may look too similar to a bronze "V" on a military ribbon.  Therefore, it was decided to use silver as it would be distinctive enough.  As I said earlier, not creating a new device would keep the production cost down as companies already had molds for the "V" device.  Especially since not many of them would be created (or at least at the time). 

Why not "M" device, because if I recall correctly that was created in 1996 when  an Executive Order was signed allowing the "M" device on the Armed Forces Reserve Medal (even thought that medal was created in 1950). 

Why not "O" device, I do not know why.  Not really sure when that was created. 

Why not any other device?  Because someone made a decision.

Might want to check your answer on that...

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3886.0

[Luis R. Ramos]

Thrawn, I remember when I got my DR with V device, the certificate had a bronze V depicted. Afterwards I saw "silver V" in regs. Any idea why was it changed? Maybe too much of a connection with the military meaning?

[Edited after reading Thrawn response to this message]

Maybe I did not see "using the silver V device" in CAPM 39-1 but it must have been in a CAP publication, maybe 39-1 because I ended changing the bronze to silver in mine...

[THRAWN]

Thrawn, I remember when I got my DR with V device, the certificate had a bronze V depicted. Afterwards I saw "silver V" in regs. Any idea why was it changed? Maybe too much of a connection with the military meaning?

I got my first in the mid-90's with a bronze V. I recall the switch happening sometime later, around the time of the grey epaulette sleeves or so...

The 1998 39-3 is silent on the color of the V, and at the time, bronze was the only color available AFAIK.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Sky, then what would you suggest?

Short of designing a new device, and spending hundreds of $$$$$ gearing up for something that would have only a few buyers, "those in charge" at CAP and CAP-USAF probably thought it would be best to reuse something already in production. It appears to be causing a problem among some.

Me? It does not affect me anyway. My thinking is that to be a Presidentially-declared emergency, it had to have such an impact in the nation that civilians like us would have to show certain , and I will say, valor. And I say this with no intention of demeaning the act of millions of men and women in the service.

Back to you, Sky. What would you suggest that would end this continuous argument about using the V device?

Any device in use in military ribbons would generate arguments against its use on a CAP ribbon. Designing a new device would probably be costly. How would you, anyone, take us out of this problem?

[THRAWN]

Sky, then what would you suggest?

Short of designing a new device, and spending hundreds of $$$$$ gearing up for something that would have only a few buyers, "those in charge" at CAP and CAP-USAF probably thought it would be best to reuse something already in production. It appears to be causing a problem among some.

Me? It does not affect me anyway. My thinking is that to be a Presidentially-declared emergency, it had to have such an impact in the nation that civilians like us would have to show certain , and I will say, valor. And I say this with no intention of demeaning the act of millions of men and women in the service.

Back to you, Sky. What would you suggest that would end this continuous argument about using the V device?

Any device in use in military ribbons would generate arguments against its use on a CAP ribbon. Designing a new device would probably be costly. How would you, anyone, take us out of this problem?

Drop the device. Simplify, daddy-o...Make the ribbon available for Presidential Declared DR work. Award a bronze clasp for subsequent awards. Search this topic and see that it's been done to death. Has anyone even attempted the firey hoops in the regs to get the award without the V? Jimminy Jillikers...less time consuming to show up when the balloon goes up.

[TheSkyHornet]

This is just like the military...

Arguing over the design of a new ribbon. A GWOT medial/ribbon came out for those partaking in OEF. Then it started being used for everyone so an expeditionary award came out. Now the military is coming out with PT ribbons.

How many awards do you want/need? Just do your job and stop expecting something in return for it. You volunteered to be a part of one, if not all, of three CAP missions: Aerospace Education, Emergency Service operations, and Volunteer Service in your community. If you want special devices and trinkets and all kinds of stuff that make you feel better about what you do, go work in retail and get a commission for each sale you make to reward you.

Sure, we want some recognition once in a while, especially from the Air Force who is our partner, but we don't need to wear it on our collars and chests to gloat. Just accept your ribbon, shake a hand, and move on. And if you don't get one, deal with it, and keep moving on.

If the President calls on CAP to assist in rescue operations, get out there and do the job that needs to be done. Don't worry about what you're going to get for it. Someone needs your help, and to them, they don't care what you get for it. It doesn't take awards to get out there and help people.

My proposal, you ask?
Stop whining over your ribbon and "V" device. Who cares?

[LSThiker]

Thrawn, I remember when I got my DR with V device, the certificate had a bronze V depicted. Afterwards I saw "silver V" in regs. Any idea why was it changed? Maybe too much of a connection with the military meaning?

I got my first in the mid-90's with a bronze V. I recall the switch happening sometime later, around the time of the grey epaulette sleeves or so...

The 1998 39-3 is silent on the color of the V, and at the time, bronze was the only color available AFAIK.

CAPR 39-3 was silent for many years on the color.  It was not until the 2010(or the one before that) version that finally settled the debate.  Bronze was used because that was available from CAPMart and cheapest to produce, but it was never officially authorized as per regulations.  Much like the 1SG diamond being sold for years but never really being authorized.

But regardless of the color, that was why the "V" device was used as opposed to any other device.  It meant valor and it was already in production.  Hence, no having to set up a new mold. 

[LSThiker]

Make the ribbon available for Presidential Declared DR work.

I would go with a State Declared Disaster gets the basic ribbon and a Presidential Declared gets the "V". 

[Luis R. Ramos]

I do care. Because it is the way I show about my involvement. What is so wrong about that?

I do not care whether it is s V or an A. But there are others that do. Some former military complain that "it means Valor in a military situation."

This is CAP. It was decided by those in power that for CAP its meaning is to be different than in the military.

...don't act like we're doing some valorous task on Tarawa. Just do your job and move on.

This comment is just... I cannot type what I am thinking as I could get banned. Who the heck is "acting like doing some valorous...?"

What is wrong with being rewarded, if symbolically at least?

[TheSkyHornet]

I do care. Because it is the way I show about my involvement. What is so wrong about that?

I do not care whether it is s V or an A. But there are others that do. Some former military complain that "it means Valor in a military situation."

This is CAP. It was decided by those in power that for CAP its meaning is to be different than in the military.

...don't act like we're doing some valorous task on Tarawa. Just do your job and move on.

This comment is just... I cannot type what I am thinking as I could get banned. Who the heck is "acting like doing some valorous...?"

What is wrong with being rewarded, if symbolically at least?

You've been rewarded. You received the ribbon. You may have received a certificate, possibly a challenge coin of some kind. Do you need something else to go with it?

You know how you show your involvement? You wear your CAP uniform proudly, and you share what you've learned/experience through training.

I think this has made out to be a bigger deal than it needs to be, and seems to be very personal and emotion for some people. I'm not trying to be personally offensive about this. You have your opinions, I have mine. Neither is any more valid. I'm just not someone who feels I need to build up my ribbon rack for every thing I do in CAP. They're part of the uniform, I wear them, and I make sure that they're facing the right direction and worn in the right order. After that, doing the work is enough for me. I'm okay with someone telling me they appreciated my work. That's my feel-good-about-what-I-did. I know that isn't enough for some people. Hey, not my business. Go get your ribbon. But I'm okay without it because I know what I do and that's enough to keep me motivated.

[Flying Pig]

I was just curious if the "V" actually meant something.   Weve discussed it before and its always been left at "Dunno, just what they used."   With people being added here at CAPTalk all the time I thought Id ask again.  This is the first time Ive ever been told the "V" actually means "Valor". 

[THRAWN]

I was just curious if the "V" actually meant something.   Weve discussed it before and its always been left at "Dunno, just what they used."   With people being added here at CAPTalk all the time I thought Id ask again.  This is the first time Ive ever been told the "V" actually means "Valor".

Valor. Vigilance. Volunteerism. Victory.....depends on who you ask....

[Flying Pig]

So CAP picked a device that was already in production and slapped it on a ribbon.  Good enough.  its not a military ribbon and its not on a military uniform, so the V should not ever be confused with the military version of the "V"   The simple response would be "The V is not on a military ribbon, so its not an issue."  I was just really curious if there was an actual story behind why it was used. 

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

I do care. Because it is the way I show about my involvement. What is so wrong about that?

I do not care whether it is s V or an A. But there are others that do. Some former military complain that "it means Valor in a military situation."

This is CAP. It was decided by those in power that for CAP its meaning is to be different than in the military.

...don't act like we're doing some valorous task on Tarawa. Just do your job and move on.

This comment is just... I cannot type what I am thinking as I could get banned. Who the heck is "acting like doing some valorous...?"

What is wrong with being rewarded, if symbolically at least?

There is nothing wrong with being rewarded, and wanting to be awarded, and you should continue feeling that way and wearing your ribbons proudly. CAP does not pay you and the ribbons are one way that CAP shows its appreciation for excellent service.

Others may not feel that way, and that is their right but as long as you feel appreciated and you want to continue to volunteer, do it!!

I've learned that there are a number of ways that people feel appreciated and these are well theorized in this book: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Love_Languages

The five ways are: gifts, quality time, words of affirmation, acts of service (devotion), and physical touch (intimacy). In CAP or other volunteer organizations, this equates in my mind to:

1. Gifts - Ribbons and Awards (Awards)
2. Quality Time - Service with friends (Friendship)
3. Words of Afirmation - Receiving thanks (Thanks)
4. Acts of Service - Service as the only Motivator (Service)
5. Not sure Physical Touch has an equivalent 😄

Luis, thank you for your volunteer service!

Now SkyHornet, perhaps you can be a little less dogmatic and open your eyes to the fact that different people are motivated in different ways. You may not like it but to be an effective leader in a volunteer organization you need to understand what motivates its members. Awards, Friendship , Thanks, and Service all are motivators.

You seem to be Service driven, Luis Award driven, I'm Award, Friendship, and Thanks driven.

How about the rest of you?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Sky, Pig, Thrawn, and Mission.

Your last message each are just... Something great. They are moving. Thank you for your service, and the thoughtful messages...

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Thank you, I'll take Words of Affirmation any day 😄

[Flying Pig]

Im a bling bandit.  Ill admit it.  I just like for my ribbons and decorations to have a purpose, and I like to know the details behind them.  I don't like getting carried away with stuff.  But a crisp, sharp uniform with your ribbons in the right setting is something I enjoy.  When I was the cadet commander in AFJROTC, if cadets couldn't tell me what their ribbons were for and why they were awarded that ribbon, they took them off until they could.  (Yep... I made that all up on my own to do that)  And it only took once before every cadet knew exactly "Who what when where why" when I pointed to a ribbon and asked what it was for. 

I adopted the same policy as a DCC... but fortunately in CAP, cadets seem to be very aware and I never had to do it.  ROTC has a lot of "gimme" ribbons.  CAP cadets tend to have to really work for theirs. However, in JROTC it was pretty common to find cadets wearing ribbons who had no idea why they had been "given" the ribbon. 

I think Ill go with "Volunteer".  When people ask, "I don't know" isn't the answer.  Id Id be about 99.9% sure it was not intended to mean "Valor" unless someone can show me that in writing.