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Forced Entry

Started by ♠SARKID♠, January 07, 2008, 07:39:57 PM

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♠SARKID♠

Are we allowed, under LE supervision, to force entry on a property to get to a beacon?

isuhawkeye

#1
I've never aproached it that way.  my position has always been that LEO has the authority to gain access to an emergency beacon

If needed

BlackKnight

Law Enforcement makes the entry - under CAP supervision!  ;D 

Seriously, a "forced entry" is rarely made. The usual practice is to work with the LE officer, make a few phone calls, leave a note, and then show up again in the morning when the owner can be present.  Where I live, people tend to shoot folks who bust in without permission.  An ELT with a dying battery ain't worth getting shot at over.
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

RiverAux

Nope.  A law enforcement officer couldn't tell us its okay to steal the guys headset out of the plane, so why could he say its ok for us to break and enter and/or trespass? 

SDF_Specialist

Way out in left field two days after the game kind of question, but could we force entry under AIR FORCE supervision?
SDF_Specialist

Eclipse

Correct, unless the LEO has probable cause to believe a crime is being committed or his making entrance will protect life or property, he needs permission just like we do.

As an aside to this, whenever we're poking around residential neighborhoods on an ELT hunt, we always try and involve local LE, and whenever possible, have them knock on the doors.  At 2 in the morning the camo will get people's attention, but the badge does , too, and the badge can take action if "bad" things happen when the people come to the door.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on January 07, 2008, 11:58:38 PM
Way out in left field two days after the game kind of question, but could we force entry under AIR FORCE supervision?

Not under POSSE COM - USAF has no LE authority over civilians.

>Maybe<...>maybe< in a situation like Katrina where a "state of emergency" was declared in many areas, probably under Marshall Law as well...

"That Others May Zoom"

SDF_Specialist

Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2008, 12:04:22 AM
[Not under POSSE COM - USAF has no LE authority over civilians.
>Maybe<...>maybe< in a situation like Katrina where a "state of emergency" was declared in many areas, probably under Marshall Law as well...

Ok, that makes sense. But wouldn't the USAF step in if the ANG or NG wasn't doing a job to the standards of their training?
SDF_Specialist

Eclipse

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on January 08, 2008, 12:12:17 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2008, 12:04:22 AM
[Not under POSSE COM - USAF has no LE authority over civilians.
>Maybe<...>maybe< in a situation like Katrina where a "state of emergency" was declared in many areas, probably under Marshall Law as well...

Ok, that makes sense. But wouldn't the USAF step in if the ANG or NG wasn't doing a job to the standards of their training?

Not their call to just "step in" - different agencies and authorities.  One of the reasons the guard is a state agency is to negate PC issues with regards to unrest, etc., under normal circumstances it is the Governor, not POTUS who deploys the Guard.

"That Others May Zoom"

isuhawkeye

before this becomes a PCA thread remember that we have several of those

JayT

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 07, 2008, 07:39:57 PM
Are we allowed, under LE supervision, to force entry on a property to get to a beacon?

Dude.......if the cops are there...........why would a CAP team need to?

I don't know about you, but I don't carry a set of irons in my car.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

ZigZag911

There was a case back in the 80s in which an individual refused to cooperate with CAP or the local police.

Someone (AFRCC? FAA? don't rightly know, been a long time, though I got this from  eyewitnesses) contacted a federal magistrate, who signed some sort of court order which was served by U.S. Marshals and state police (accompanied by local cops & CAP personnel!).

This all took place in the wee hours ("oh-dark-thirty" to you military folks!), and it was in the early days of ELTs, before SARSAT,  when ALL signals were presumed to be distress till proven otherwise.

arajca

Can a member of the general public make forced entry under LE supervision?

Although some members may think otherwise, CAP has no authority to enter private property than does any other member of the general public.

Quote from: CAPR 60-3, para 1-21(e)
e. Distress Beacons. Distress beacons are frequently tracked to a locked vehicle, aircraft, or building. CAP mission personnel should contact the controlling agency (e.g., AFRCC) for further instructions. If entry is required the owner/operator or local law enforcement officials will make it. CAP members WILL NOT enter private property and should not do anything that could cause harm or damage to the distress beacon or aircraft/boat. If the beacon is not readily silenced the IC should contact the controlling agency and plan to withdraw. (See paragraph 6-3e for additional guidance.)

Flying Pig

#13
Ahhh...HAA!  I've actually done this before as a cop.

I was called to Hemet Ryan-Airport, Ca. when I was a Hemet Police Officer by two CAP members.  They were not from the Hemet Sq. because they had flown in.  They told me they were trying to locate an ELT and had had believed they had narrowed it down to a particular hangar.  They asked if I was able to get into the hangar to allow them to disable it.  They had tried everything to attempt to locate the owner, but it was 2 am and not a soul around.  I told them that I could not.  There was no "exigent circumstances"  ie. no emergency.  It was pretty unlikely that the plane had crashed inside the hangar.  I told them I was also a CAP member, and that in reality, we all knew this wasn't an emergency.  I said, "Sorry guys, I get off at 8 am.  Ill swing by in a few hours and let the airport manager know." 

An ELT in a hangar is not the same as someone in a house calling 911.  An active ELT in a building is not an emergency.  If something led the officer to believe there was more to it, such as an ELT, and several 911 calls, or a broken window, pried door.  In that case, you would be standing by watching the officer, he wouldn't be watching you.  As a cop, I cant "authorize" anyone to break into a structure.  If your the property owner, then its your call.  Either you have the legal "standing"  to be there or you don't.  I cant grant it to you.  If your a CAP member, then Im going to tell you "No." If your a CAP member who has called the police and we as police determine there is an emergency, now the ball is out of your hands and its a LE/EMS issue and the ELT is now a secondary issue.  But we aren't trespassing or breaking into a building to turn off a beacon.  . 
Now, can we come onto someones land to try to make a reasonable effort to contact the owner of, say, a crop duster in a barn?  Sure, as an officer have the authority to do that, I do it all the time whenever I go to a house on a call, but we aren't going into the barn to look ourselves.   I don't care if we are standing at the open front door of the barn starring at the airplane that is 10 ft inside the threshold, we aren't going in.   Once I determine there is no emergency, the nuisance of an ELT doesn't trump your rights as a citizen.  Clear as mud?

Now, let me clarify....when I say make a reasonable effort to contact the property owner, I am talking about basically walking up the driveway, not jumping barbed wire fences or cutting locks on gates or anything crazy like that.

So to answer your question....No.

Flying Pig

#14
^^^Now....heres a scenario.  Where I am, we have cattle ranches that are several thousand acres in the Sierra foothills.  All Private property.  It is very likely that an aircraft could crash on someone's property and nobody would know.  What if you had a property owner who was VERY insistant that nobody was going onto his property and told you to shove your ELT sticks and DF'ing equipment.

This scenario assumes there are no aircraft available to DF.

In that case, you are going to call the Sheriff/Police, and more than likely, we are going to go onto the property and take you with us regardless of the owners objections.  Of course, thats after some serious attempts to gain their cooperation.  We are going to take you, the CAP member, because we don't carry DF'ing equipment as law enforcement.  In that case, exigent circumstances outweigh his property rights because we can articulate that someone's life may be in danger.  The property owner doesn't have the authority to allow someone to die on his property.  Now don't misunderstand, I am talking about open land, not going into someone's house to locate an ELT.   But at any rate, we as law enforcement are making the call, not the CAP member.  CAP is going to stand in the rear until the Deputy points to you and says "C'mon, show me where this thing is."

So what about Posse Commitatus issues?  Im thinking CAP would be OK.  I am approaching this from a Deputy perspective.  As a CAP member, you aren't being "ordered" to do anything.  You are still on your CAP mission, we as police are basically escorting you while you do your job, but as police also have a vested interest in your findings.  Thoughts?

Sorry SARKID...I hope I didn't hijack your thread to bad!  I just got home from work and my legal brain hasnt turned off yet.  In fact, Im sitting here in uniform! ::)


♠SARKID♠

^Hey no problem, thats exactly the kind of thing I wanted to hear!  Thanks for sharing!  The second half makes a very valid point, one that could apply in many areas of the country.  Even here in WI, we don't have massive tracts of open land like in the Sierras, but we do have some substantial forests (although they aren't what they used to be).

Sidenote: Like many things I post, this was just another of my "ponderings of hypothetical situations".  I wasn't prepping to go buy a crowbar and a Texas key or anything.

SAR-EMT1

Once upon a time I was informed that the SARSAT is only able to detect one beacon in a certain area at a time.

That is to say; if you had an elt go off it would mask the 172 that crashed  down the road.

If this is true then it is in the public interest to shut down EVERY elt ASAP...
EVEN if that means LE breaks down the door.

Note: I dont know for sure if that intel I have is correct. Someone feel free to correct me if needed.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

isuhawkeye

do you kick in every door every time an automatic fire alarm goes off

♠SARKID♠

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 12, 2008, 04:35:51 AM
Once upon a time I was informed that the SARSAT is only able to detect one beacon in a certain area at a time.

That is to say; if you had an elt go off it would mask the 172 that crashed  down the road.

If this is true then it is in the public interest to shut down EVERY elt ASAP...
EVEN if that means LE breaks down the door.

Note: I dont know for sure if that intel I have is correct. Someone feel free to correct me if needed.

SARSAT can handle a few signals at a time, but if two beacons are going off in very close proximity its going to recognize them as one and merge the two.

I've heard lots of stories of one beacon/signal completely covering up another.  You have to remember, if the signal is coming from a malfunctioning electrical device, it could be putting out uber loads of power; the dang thing is plugged into the wall.  Way more power than that little 9v battery powering the elt allowing for easy coverup, and the people in distress not getting the help they need.

Quote from: isuhawkeye on January 12, 2008, 05:04:51 AM
do you kick in every door every time an automatic fire alarm goes off

Bad analogy for the post.  The automatic fire alarm in one building isnt going to cover up the burning appartment down the street, killing all the residents inside. 

stillamarine

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 12, 2008, 06:23:05 AM


Bad analogy for the post.  The automatic fire alarm in one building isnt going to cover up the burning appartment down the street, killing all the residents inside. 

No, but it is going to pull that crew away from the actual emergency. For example, Engine 87 is first due in a neighborhood, next closest apparatus is 5-10 mins away. Engine 87 gets toned out for a fire alarm at a business at 3 am.  Truck shows up on scene. Doesn't see anything but can't assume. Starts looking for the Knox Box (box outside of a business that holds a master key only the fire dept, sometimes police dept and security alarm companies). Oops stupid owner didn't put it up yet, though he is required by city fire code. Now the dispatcher has to call a key holder to come in open the door, because we don't want to break the doors down yet, might be a falsie.

While all this is going, in that sleepy little neighborhood, a house starts on fire. Neighbor out walking his dog, sees it and calls 911. Well the first due company is on a call, the second due company gets the tones. Takes them longer to get there then would be normal. They managed to save everyone but poor little Sally.

All the while the first due company is sitting on their thumbs waiting for a key holder.

(Disclaimer: I know that once it was confirmed as a working fire, that the first due would have left the alarm call, but without knowing the alarm was false, they would not have been dispatched to the second call. At least in any of the Depts I've worked for.)
Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: stillamarine on January 12, 2008, 01:10:56 PM
While all this is going, in that sleepy little neighborhood, a house starts on fire. Neighbor out walking his dog, sees it and calls 911. Well the first due company is on a call, the second due company gets the tones. Takes them longer to get there then would be normal. They managed to save everyone but poor little Sally.

All the while the first due company is sitting on their thumbs waiting for a key holder.

(Disclaimer: I know that once it was confirmed as a working fire, that the first due would have left the alarm call, but without knowing the alarm was false, they would not have been dispatched to the second call. At least in any of the Depts I've worked for.)

In my own experience, the OIC of the company on the first call would be advised by fire radio as to the nature of the second call and asked as to their pleasure regarding the second call. If the seclond call is a working fire, the OIC of the company on the alarm call would be advised of this and, depending on what's on the street/on location at the alarm call may well make the decision to send some of those assets to the working job, especially if there's possible or conformed entrapment.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

Major Lord

Transmitting a false distress signal is a felony crime, and requires only general intent to be found guilty. You can find this in U.S.C Title 14 and U.S.C Title 47. Among other things, an individual can be fined 250,000 dollars and imprisoned for 5 years for every offense.  Let us assume that we have found an airplane that we can articulate is emitting a distress signal beyond any reasonable doubt. No person or ELT is visible and the doors are locked. We can assume that: 1) A midget is in the aft section of the aircraft, trapped and summoning our aid by activating the ELT, 2) Evil-Doers came upon an unlocked aircraft and turned on the ELT, or 3) It was an accidental activation of the ELT.

I will leave it to those active duty police to determine whether or not probable cause to enter an aircraft is permissable under these circumstances. A private citizen does not need a warrant to enter or arrest, they do so solely at their own risk.

The Posse Comitatus Act (which only arguably applies to CAP) relies on the supposition that we are "part" of the Air Force.  Lets assume for a minute that we are subject to the PCA, just like any member of the military. The Army  (Corp of Engineers) already enters  private vessels when they represent a hazard to navigation in federal waterways, so a precedent is well established.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."