Flight Officer TIG tracking

[Майор Хаткевич]

First, I was just notified by my Squadron Commander that I've officially crossed to the SM side on the 17th.

Second, I had a question which does not apply to me, but got me curious.

If NHQ does not track Flight Officer grades, does that mean it's a completely local action, and any TIG gets counted at the local level, to be substantiated for NHQ when the FO turns 21?

[MSG Mac]

Yes

[DakRadz]

Congratulations TFO!

You have crossed to the dark side... Beware the doughnuts, sir.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Congratulations TFO!

You have crossed to the dark side... Beware the doughnuts, sir.

Lol, thanks.

I don't know if I'm a TFO or just a SMWOG (I should find out though!), which doesn't make a difference as I am inactive at this time, and the TIG won't mean anything (but for posterity down the line) until I turn 21 in less than 6 months.

[a2capt]

I don't get it- you're in the FO ranks if you:
Join after turning 19, but are under 21
Or after turning 18, you opt to switch to the Dark Side.

But you "automatically" become part of the Dark Side at 21, if you were a Cadet already.

What I'm getting at is there is not a case where you would have automatically reverted to be eligible for anything but SM(w/wo)G. TO ends at the 21st birthday, and SM begins at the 21st birthday.


...and the database has you as 'SM', so...

[Майор Хаткевич]

I don't get it- you're in the FO ranks if you:
Join after turning 19, but are under 21
Or after turning 18, you opt to switch to the Dark Side.

But you "automatically" become part of the Dark Side at 21, if you were a Cadet already.

What I'm getting at is there is not a case where you would have automatically reverted to be eligible for anything but SM(w/wo)G. TO ends at the 21st birthday, and SM begins at the 21st birthday.


...and the database has you as 'SM', so...

It's over 18, not 19 sir.
You also do not become a FO, just a SMWOG under 21. I guess we should call them C/SMs, since a lot of the time that's what happens.

Since NHQ doesn't track FOs at all, I guess there's a form somewhere that the Unit Commander fills out and sticks into the member file, which later gets submitted to NHQ to show that before turning 21, the SM(FO) is now eligible for so and so on the 21+ side.

[HGjunkie]

You also do not become a FO, just a SMWOG under 21. I guess we should call them C/SMs, since a lot of the time that's what happens.

Whoa, paradox.

[MIKE]

Technically you are not supposed to be appointed to FO-SFO without being in a supervisory or leadership position.

(3) Leadership qualities. Individuals recommended for promotion to flight officer grade must be occupying positions of supervision or leadership within the unit.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Technically you are not supposed to be appointed to FO-SFO without being in a supervisory or leadership position.

(3) Leadership qualities. Individuals recommended for promotion to flight officer grade must be occupying positions of supervision or leadership within the unit.

There you have it! But again, it's a wash anyway, my TIG will be wiped at 21 anyway even if I was promoted.

[Short Field]

I guess there's a form somewhere that the Unit Commander fills out and sticks into the member file,...

CAPF 45 and CAPF 45B.  By definition, all assigned positions are leadership positions, at least that is the section you enter duty assignments in on the Fm 45.  Showing up for meetings and then just strolling around giving cadets spot inspections is not a leadership position.

[EMT-83]

Yes, there is a form – Form 2, Request For Promotion Action.   

This is clearly spelled out in the regulations for all to see; it's not rocket science.

[ßτε]

FO, TFO, and SFO promotions are done using a CAPF 2, side 2. Also CAPF 45 should be annotated once the CAPF 2 is approved by the squadron commander. The signed CAPF 2 should be used as evidence of TIG when the member turns 21.

Remember that TIG as TFO counts toward promotion to 1st Lt, not Capt.

[davidsinn]

I don't get it- you're in the FO ranks if you:
Join after turning 19, but are under 21
Or after turning 18, you opt to switch to the Dark Side.

But you "automatically" become part of the Dark Side at 21, if you were a Cadet already.

What I'm getting at is there is not a case where you would have automatically reverted to be eligible for anything but SM(w/wo)G. TO ends at the 21st birthday, and SM begins at the 21st birthday.


...and the database has you as 'SM', so...

It's over 18, not 19 sir.

That's new. It used to say up to your 19th birthday. We were trying to recruit a cadet that was right around 18 and she couldn't get the doctors forms or something before her birthday so I confirmed what the cut off date was and it was 18 years and 364 days. But looks like the cutoff has been dropped to 18th birthday.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I don't get it- you're in the FO ranks if you:
Join after turning 19, but are under 21
Or after turning 18, you opt to switch to the Dark Side.

But you "automatically" become part of the Dark Side at 21, if you were a Cadet already.

What I'm getting at is there is not a case where you would have automatically reverted to be eligible for anything but SM(w/wo)G. TO ends at the 21st birthday, and SM begins at the 21st birthday.


...and the database has you as 'SM', so...

It's over 18, not 19 sir.

That's new. It used to say up to your 19th birthday. We were trying to recruit a cadet that was right around 18 and she couldn't get the doctors forms or something before her birthday so I confirmed what the cut off date was and it was 18 years and 364 days. But looks like the cutoff has been dropped to 18th birthday.

I've never seen anyone able to join as a cadet at 18+, and everything I've seen since 2003 always placed the cut off at turning 18, not up to 19. I may be wrong. Do you have a cite? I'll be looking at this time too.


Edit:

CAPR 39-2

CHAPTER 2 – CADET MEMBERSHIP
2-1. General. Cadet membership in CAP is available to all young men and women who meet the eligibility requirements outlined in paragraph 2-2. Cadets who become members before their 19th birthday may retain their cadet status until they reach 21 years of age; however, senior membership is optional for all cadets at age 18 (see paragraph 3-5 for application procedures).
2-2. Requirements for Initial Membership. All applicants for cadet membership must meet the following prerequisites:
a.
Twelve years of age through 18 years of age. Note: Individuals applying for membership in a squadron that is participating in CAP's middle school initiative may join if they are below age 12 as long as they are attending at least the sixth grade in the appropriate middle school. These squadrons are monitored by the Cadets and Senior Member Professional Development office at National Headquarters and have a distinguishing charter number that identifies them as participants of this program.
b.
Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement.
c.
Single or married and under age 18.

I'm guessing that the 19 Years of age comment is the newest addition, and is potentially a typo...But I guess you were right sir, though some of the other statement side with me...

[davidsinn]

I don't get it- you're in the FO ranks if you:
Join after turning 19, but are under 21
Or after turning 18, you opt to switch to the Dark Side.

But you "automatically" become part of the Dark Side at 21, if you were a Cadet already.

What I'm getting at is there is not a case where you would have automatically reverted to be eligible for anything but SM(w/wo)G. TO ends at the 21st birthday, and SM begins at the 21st birthday.


...and the database has you as 'SM', so...

It's over 18, not 19 sir.

That's new. It used to say up to your 19th birthday. We were trying to recruit a cadet that was right around 18 and she couldn't get the doctors forms or something before her birthday so I confirmed what the cut off date was and it was 18 years and 364 days. But looks like the cutoff has been dropped to 18th birthday.

I've never seen anyone able to join as a cadet at 18+, and everything I've seen since 2003 always placed the cut off at turning 18, not up to 19. I may be wrong. Do you have a cite? I'll be looking at this time too.


Edit:

CAPR 39-2

CHAPTER 2 – CADET MEMBERSHIP
2-1. General. Cadet membership in CAP is available to all young men and women who meet the eligibility requirements outlined in paragraph 2-2. Cadets who become members before their 19th birthday may retain their cadet status until they reach 21 years of age; however, senior membership is optional for all cadets at age 18 (see paragraph 3-5 for application procedures).
2-2. Requirements for Initial Membership. All applicants for cadet membership must meet the following prerequisites:
a.
Twelve years of age through 18 years of age. Note: Individuals applying for membership in a squadron that is participating in CAP's middle school initiative may join if they are below age 12 as long as they are attending at least the sixth grade in the appropriate middle school. These squadrons are monitored by the Cadets and Senior Member Professional Development office at National Headquarters and have a distinguishing charter number that identifies them as participants of this program.
b.
Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement.
c.
Single or married and under age 18.

I'm guessing that the 19 Years of age comment is the newest addition, and is potentially a typo...But I guess you were right sir, though some of the other statement side with me...

No I don't have a cite. They've changed it since I looked it up. What you posted is the current state of things.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Which contradicts itself...within a few lines.

[MIKE]

18 and 364 days is still 18.  18 and married, no dice.  17 and married fine.

[davidsinn]

18 and 364 days is still 18.  18 and married, no dice.  17 and married fine.

It also says under 18. Which is 17 and 364.

[Майор Хаткевич]

18 and 364 days is still 18.  18 and married, no dice.  17 and married fine.

It also says under 18. Which is 17 and 364.

And above that it says "All applicants for cadet membership must meet the...prerequisites"

[a2capt]

We just had a cadet join, at age 18 plus a couple days. He showed up with the next day after the meeting being the last before he turned 18 and thought we were going to do it by phone with NHQ, but they said it's "through the 18th year" - hence my comment, of "joining after you've turned 19", because if you joined at up through 18, you have a choice.  After 19, and until 21, it's FO no NO.

This was just three weeks ago.

[ßτε]

It's "Single or married and under 18."


Single 18-year-old can join as a cadet or a senior.
Married 18-year-old cannot join as a cadet and must join as a senior.
Under 18, married or single, join as a cadet and not a senior
19 or older, married or single, cannot join as a cadet and must join as a senior.
Active duty military of any age cannot join as a cadet and must join as a senior.

[RiverAux]

Boy, add in the exceptions that allow those under the age of 12 to join and the requirements splitting hairs between those who are National Guard/Reservist (but who are not on extended active duty) vs active duty military and the craziness of our cadet membership requirements would be well-illustrated. 

[RogueLeader]

CAPF 45 and CAPF 45B.  By definition, all assigned positions are leadership positions, at least that is the section you enter duty assignments in on the Fm 45.  Showing up for meetings and then just strolling around giving cadets spot inspections is not a leadership position.

CAPF 45b is obsolete and has been incorporated into the CAPF 45.

[a2capt]

I still don't get it. Are you 21 or not? If you're 21, your a SM. There's no "6 months of TFO, or any FO". There is six months before you are eligible for 2nd Lt. if you joined from scratch. You've already got cadet progress. When you get forced out of cadethood, that happens at 21, you have your 2A lined up to apply for that senior member rank you are converting to. That shouldn't take a six month wait.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I still don't get it. Are you 21 or not? If you're 21, your a SM. There's no "6 months of TFO, or any FO". There is six months before you are eligible for 2nd Lt. if you joined from scratch. You've already got cadet progress. When you get forced out of cadethood, that happens at 21, you have your 2A lined up to apply for that senior member rank you are converting to. That shouldn't take a six month wait.

I'll be 21 on 15 Feb 11.  I was wondering how the FO ranks are tracked, and that answered.

[Short Field]

CAPF 45b is obsolete and has been incorporated into the CAPF 45.

And everyone who has a CAPF 45 and CAPF 45B can continue to use them. 

Previous editions of CAPF 45 may also continue to be used. Do not transcribe information from the older CAPFs 45/45a just for the sake of updating the newer CAPF 45. CAPF 45b will be used to record member's participation in the modified senior member training program that was implemented 1 September 1983.

Granted, there should not be a lot of new 45bs being prepared but we still have a big stack of the old pink cardstock CAPF 45s.

[spacecommand]

Under 18, married or single, join as a cadet and not a senior

Except CAPR 35-3, SECTION A - CADETS
3. Causes To Terminate Cadet Membership:
(2) Marriage.

So a someone who is under 18 and married can join CAP only to get terminated doesn't make much sense doesn't it when the regulations say cadets who are married can join as a cadet.

[HGjunkie]

Under 18, married or single, join as a cadet and not a senior

Except CAPR 35-3, SECTION A - CADETS
3. Causes To Terminate Cadet Membership:
(2) Marriage.

So a someone who is under 18 and married can join CAP only to get terminated doesn't make much sense doesn't it?

One of them gray areas that turns into a paradox.

[ßτε]

Under 18, married or single, join as a cadet and not a senior

Except CAPR 35-3, SECTION A - CADETS
3. Causes To Terminate Cadet Membership:
(2) Marriage.

So a someone who is under 18 and married can join CAP only to get terminated doesn't make much sense doesn't it when the regulations say cadets who are married can join as a cadet.

You must be reading an older version.

3. Causes To Terminate Cadet Membership:
a. Automatic Loss of Membership:
...
(2) Marriage after the age of 18.

[spacecommand]

Looks like I was!  @_@

[RogueLeader]

You must be reading an older version.

3. Causes To Terminate Cadet Membership:
a. Automatic Loss of Membership:
...
(2) Marriage after the age of 18.

Does that mean if they get married before 18, can they stay a cadet until they are 21? Or only if they get married after 18?

but this has little to do with FO tracking.

[jimmydeanno]

Does that mean if they get married before 18, can they stay a cadet until they are 21? Or only if they get married after 18?

My understanding is that if they are 17 and married, they can remain a cadet until they turn 18.

[ßτε]

Cadets married before age 18 stay cadets until they turn 18, at which time they either convert to Senior Member or are terminated.

Cadets who marry after age 18 either convert to Senior Member or are terminated.

[a2capt]

Is there a point when a Cadet is forced into the FO grades but not eligible for SM (Age 21) and it's not because of marriage or AD service?

Forced, as in you can not remain a cadet any longer. Not because they're not going to get the Mitchell Award and just decided to swap early and start counting FO TIG toward SM promotions?

[spacecommand]

You don't have to be 21 to be a SM.  Someone who is 18-21 and not a Cadet is a SM.  They are only ineligible for promotion into 2d Lt or higher.  They can be promoted to a FO, TFO, SFO from SM between 18-21. 

[DakRadz]

In one of the (three?) threads Mr. USAFaux started, someone posted a quote concerning FO grades.

Is there a point when a Cadet is forced into the FO grades but not eligible for SM (Age 21) and it's not because of marriage or AD service?

The quote/reg stated that FO grades would be reserved for those in a position of responsibility? or something along those lines.
I will find the quote and edit this post to include it.

Basically, I don't think you can be "forced" into FO grades- SM, yes.

[a2capt]

Thats what I thought - SM is an absolute, but FO isn't if you are a cadet already. The OP was asking about TIG and in the midst of it came something that implied like he was automatically converted, perhaps it was voluntarily requested to transition to the FO ranks, but the thread started with

First, I was just notified by my Squadron Commander that I've officially crossed to the SM side on the 17th.

... and I interpreted that to mean "I've been bumped" and thought the 21 threshold had been crossed, and figured that would be "SM" not "FO" unless the Cadet asked to transit to FO instead of waiting out the time to go SM.

[DakRadz]

I received a call from my unit commander and he let me know that due to some ongoing discussion regarding true force representation, I may at some point be bumped to 000 or Patron status.

This is from his other thread, and since they both (while he started them for other reasons) ended up in the same direction, I was confusing the two conversations.
He went SM simply to start stocking up on SM training and such because he wasn't going to be active as a cadet anyway, and his 21 year boot is in a few months or so. (Plus the force representation dealio)

Clarity achieved

[spacecommand]

Yeah if anyone was watching the NB meetings, there was a big debate on whether or not to bump inactive members to the 000 or 996 (patron status) some were leaning for 000 status, many others were in agreement with the 996 status (as you can keep last grade etc), in the end, it was sent to committee, at the time being 996 as a patron has provisions to keep your prior rank etc written into it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

All this confusion over the first OP sentence...

I was informed on the 20th that I rolled over on the 17th, mainly because he's awesome and was staying on top of it to make sure my PD stuff gets credited.

[ßτε]

Thats what I thought - SM is an absolute, but FO isn't if you are a cadet already. The OP was asking about TIG and in the midst of it came something that implied like he was automatically converted, perhaps it was voluntarily requested to transition to the FO ranks, but the thread started with

First, I was just notified by my Squadron Commander that I've officially crossed to the SM side on the 17th.

... and I interpreted that to mean "I've been bumped" and thought the 21 threshold had been crossed, and figured that would be "SM" not "FO" unless the Cadet asked to transit to FO instead of waiting out the time to go SM.

You seem to be under the impression that one needs to be at least 21 to be a SM. That is not so. Without going through all the exceptions, someone who joins after age 18 would join as a senior member. Cadets may transfer to senior member anytime after their 18th birthday.

Senior members under the age of 21 are ineligible for promotion to CAP Officer Grades (2d Lt - Maj Gen). So a different set of grades, called flight officer grades, were created for senior members under the age of 21. They are just a set of grades, not a different membership category. All CAP Flight Officers (FO) are also senior members, just as all CAP 2d Lts are also senior members.

[a2capt]

I  know the FO grades are senior memberships, that wasn't the issue. The thing was, most cadets will just want to stay in the cadet ranks as long as they are eligible, unless they're planning on going forward with the senior program and have reached a point where it makes sense to transition for purposes of PD, TIG, etc.

But as I said, it created "confusion" because I interpreted it as a turning 21 transition, except that there were comments saying "21 is soon" so I thought what *other* reason was there that it would automatically happen.  (Besides the AD, marriage, etc., reason)

[Capt Ford]

Well my delima was I joined at 17 and made it to C/SrA just before turning 18, graduating High School, and starting college. Seeing that I was in no way able to make c/SNCO let alone c/Officer, I chose to join the "Dark Side" and become a Flight Officer; of course I was put in a  leadship position of ES officer before I got the grade, and now I sit here as a 20 year old Technical Flight Officer leading my squadron's ES program, and since very little CAP members  know what a black bar with two white lines threw it means they just call me Lt.  , and after correcting them 5 or 6 times I decided to just go with it  . Now when I'm out in about and I have someone that's a non CAP member walk up to me and ask me what my rank is and I tell them Flight Officer; unless they grew up in a Navy family, they usually look at me with a very puzzled look; so I refrased the answer to warrent officer, since it's modeled after the Army's WO program and alot of people seem to be very familiar with that rank (thanks to Matt Damon in the "Green Zone"). But the one thing I do like about the FO program is that once I make SFO, which I know I will before my 21st b-day, I can switch over to Capt., which works since I was to old to make it to spaatz.

The point of all this is if your a cadet stay one and work hard towards c/Officer (unless you are in the same boat I was or something similiar such as Marriage) the cadet side is the fun side, don't rush it, because they mean it when they say "Dark Side", becoming a FO might sound all fun and great, but the reality is is that it's frustrating as ever, and it's mostly all work and very little play. So you choose.

[ßτε]

But the one thing I do like about the FO program is that once I make SFO, which I know I will before my 21st b-day, I can switch over to Capt., which works since I was to old to make it to spaatz.

Not directly. Your TIG as SFO would need to be combined with TIG as 1st Lt to total 18 months to be eligible for Capt. Since you will have less than 18 months as a SFO, you will need to spend the remainder as a 1st Lt before being eligible for Capt.

[Майор Хаткевич]

But the one thing I do like about the FO program is that once I make SFO, which I know I will before my 21st b-day, I can switch over to Capt., which works since I was to old to make it to spaatz.

Not directly. Your TIG as SFO would need to be combined with TIG as 1st Lt to total 18 months to be eligible for Capt. Since you will have less than 18 months as a SFO, you will need to spend the remainder as a 1st Lt before being eligible for Capt.

It's actually 12 months as SFO, but if you miss the deadline, say by a month, you're stuck with 11 down, 7 to go.

[ßτε]

But the one thing I do like about the FO program is that once I make SFO, which I know I will before my 21st b-day, I can switch over to Capt., which works since I was to old to make it to spaatz.

Not directly. Your TIG as SFO would need to be combined with TIG as 1st Lt to total 18 months to be eligible for Capt. Since you will have less than 18 months as a SFO, you will need to spend the remainder as a 1st Lt before being eligible for Capt.

It's actually 12 months as SFO, but if you miss the deadline, say by a month, you're stuck with 11 down, 7 to go.

No. It's 18 months as SFO/1st Lt combined. There is no provision for 12 Mo as SFO qualifies for Capt.
The only times a SFO would qualify directly for Capt is if either the member has been a SFO for at least 18 months or the SFO is a Spaatz award recipient.

[Capt Ford]

No. It's 18 months as SFO/1st Lt combined. There is no provision for 12 Mo as SFO qualifies for Capt.
The only times a SFO would qualify directly for Capt is if either the member has been a SFO for at least 18 months or the SFO is a Spaatz award recipient.
[/quote]

So basically 9 months as SFO and 9 months as 1 st Lt.?

[Майор Хаткевич]

But the one thing I do like about the FO program is that once I make SFO, which I know I will before my 21st b-day, I can switch over to Capt., which works since I was to old to make it to spaatz.

Not directly. Your TIG as SFO would need to be combined with TIG as 1st Lt to total 18 months to be eligible for Capt. Since you will have less than 18 months as a SFO, you will need to spend the remainder as a 1st Lt before being eligible for Capt.

It's actually 12 months as SFO, but if you miss the deadline, say by a month, you're stuck with 11 down, 7 to go.

No. It's 18 months as SFO/1st Lt combined. There is no provision for 12 Mo as SFO qualifies for Capt.
The only times a SFO would qualify directly for Capt is if either the member has been a SFO for at least 18 months or the SFO is a Spaatz award recipient.

Gah, I have no idea where that came from...

From CAPR35-5

Promotion To Minimum Skill Level I Time-In-Grade
2d Lt Level 1 6 months as senior member
1st Lt Tech Rating 12 months as 2d Lt or TFO
(Specialty Track) (or combination thereof)
Captain Level II 18 months as 1st Lt or SFO
(or combination thereof)

[ßτε]

No. It's 18 months as SFO/1st Lt combined. There is no provision for 12 Mo as SFO qualifies for Capt.
The only times a SFO would qualify directly for Capt is if either the member has been a SFO for at least 18 months or the SFO is a Spaatz award recipient.

So basically 9 months as SFO and 9 months as 1 st Lt.?

Yes, if you are promoted to SFO 9 months prior to turning 21.

[Capt Ford]

ahh gotcha thanks