Earthquake in Haiti

[RiverAux]

I already quoted you the federal law that authorizes the use of CAP for AF noncombat missions.  There is no geographical limitation in any law.  Burden of proof is on you to show that there is a legal limitation on that authority. 

I seriously doubt that CAP would be utilized anywhere other than home soil

Actually it happend this summer on a SAR mission (we've got a thread about it here somewhere), but as I've said several times, I think we're both in agreement on the liklihood of this happening. 

And I would highly doubt that overseas deployments fit anywhere within the Air Force's mission statement for CAP.

Never said that the AF would want to use CAP anywhere else, just that they could if they wanted to (which they probably don't).


Probably the best way CAP could support this sort of operation is similar to how the CG primarily uses CG Aux in such disaster situations -- backfill and support by trying to keep things going at home while the others are out responding to the mission.  If there was a very active VSAF program I could see the potential for some CAP members filling in for individual AF members that were sent to help in the mission.  But, we're not set up to do that at the moment.

FYI, from a message sent to CG Aux members today:

At this point, we know that the Homeland Security TaskForce-Southeast was activated in the Coast Guard's 7th District, based inMiami, and is responsible for supporting U.S. Agency for InternationalDevelopment (USAID) relief efforts in Haiti, under the direction of theCoast Guard's Seventh District Commander, Rear Admiral Robert Branham.There has been a preliminary data call for Auxiliary interpreter servicesand capabilities, but not a mobilization of them.  They are basically in astand-by status and are being coordinated, arranged, and monitored by theAuxiliary Director of Interpreter Support, Klaus Baumann.  There are noother specific calls for Auxiliary mobilization at this time.

[Flying Pig]

Your the one using the screen name "SARMASTER" you tell us.  Not a bash on CAP, however, I would say if CAP is your only exposure to SAR, then you have a lot to learn.  If your experience goes beyond that, elighten us a little about your training and experience vs callnig everyone fools.  Because there are several people on here that I know for a fact have real world experience beyond CAP in overseas operations, SAR, Homeland Security, military, etc.

[NCRblues]

I am a fool because I participate in a nationally recognized and congressionally charted volunteer organization? I am a fool somehow, because we have a cadet program that ranks amongst the best youth organizations in the world?

How would "ditching" the cadet program help make the professionals "take us seriously"??

The reason that some of the professionals do not like cap, is because of people like you. You slander and smear members that give up their time and personal life to better the nation. If you ever listen (which I doubt you do) to any professional organization/military/police/fire/ems, they say all the time volunteer organizations like cap are a god send. Caps current detractors point to some incidents during Katrina, yet they have no answer when told if we did such a poor job, why did cap receive thanks from 2 state governors, numerous military generals and leaders, tens (if not hundred or more) members of congress. Why if cap was doing such a poor job all around, did we have not a single bad moment on every national news channel and website?

The only reason you are saying this is because you get to hide behind a screen name. If we were in person, you would not be calling me, or anyone else for that matter, a fool.

You are the joke here.

[Pumbaa]

I am at Joint Forces Command (USJFCOM) under General Mattis.  (Google it)    I happen to be in the JDC. (also Fleet Forces Command is there). I see first hand how the Haiti deployment works.  Wish and postulate all you want, about CAP and Haiti or anything else for that matter.  It donwerkthatway...

[Gunner C]

I'd be interested in hearing how the deployments are being handled by JFCOM.  Being a command center guy I'm always interested in hearing how other organizations handle surge operations like this.

I saw earlier how a contingency unit at Davis-Montham is controlling the flow. Very interesting and I think it would be enlightening to a CAP audience.

[SarMaster]

Ok...Here we go.

I have been in CAP 19 years, as a Cadet and Senior.  This organization has gone through ups and downs....a handfull of members have real world experience, Military, Federal, State...and so on.  But the vast majority of CAP members are are own worst enemy.  National HQ needs to start to educate the members on Emergency Management and how the 'Real World' works.  If not we are going to continue to dig ourselves deeper.  I have been on many disasters in the Fire Service and Emergency Mgt in a leadership capacity.  For the most part when CAP shows up to an incident , Our appearance is not up to par...We think we are the 'Authority' in anything military related, and when asked to step up to the plate we regularly fall on our face...   There are many Wings that are simply 'Banned' from any SAR or DR work in their State.    We need to become more professional , and listen to the Emergency Managers trying to help us.  But some (most)  just don't get it!  Our future is in disaster ops..... We need to let the ego's go and start to learn! 


Regards

NWCG Type I COM-L
FEMA Type II Incident Commander
Certified Emergency Manager
Fire Service Officer
Paramedic

But again... I may not have any real word experience...

[raivo]

I'll put it this way.

There are lot of CAP members out there who are skilled at ES operations. These are the people you don't always see, because they work successfully behind the scenes and don't make a big deal of themselves.

There are also a lot of CAP members out there who think that BDUs and ES qualification patches automatically make them a B-A expert on all things military and ES. They like to put themselves in the spotlight whenever there's glory to be had.

Unfortunately, oftentimes it's the latter that get attention rather than the former, and that's why CAP often gets a bad rap with emergency management authorities.

... but, that doesn't answer the original question. Answer: CAP is not equipped for this type of mission, should not be equipped for this type of mission, and will almost certainly never been used for this type of mission.

[SarMaster]

Roger that. 

[Hawk200]

I already quoted you the federal law that authorizes the use of CAP for AF noncombat missions.

No, you did not. You quoted a line ("To assist the Department of the Air Force infulfilling its noncombat programs and missions.") that said CAP is used by the Air Force for non-combatant missions. That's it. You have no reference to any law, regulation, statute, or order whatsoever.

There is no geographical limitation in any law.  Burden of proof is on you to show that there is a legal limitation on that authority.

I don't have to prove that there's a limitation, you have to prove that it's allowed. You started the debate, burden of proof is on you. Just because something doesn't say that CAP members can't be deployed to a foreign country doesn't mean that it's allowed.

Yes, I know we have overseas units, but it is nowhere near the same thing.

Actually it happend this summer on a SAR mission (we've got a thread about it here somewhere),

OK, where's the thread?

but as I've said several times, I think we're both in agreement on the liklihood of this happening.

We agree that it's unlikely, but not for the same reasons.

...just that they could if they wanted to

Once again, you've made the statement that they can do so. Now show it. Reference the law, preferably with valid links to it, for all to see.

Probably the best way CAP could support this sort of operation is similar to how the CG primarily uses CG Aux in such disaster situations -- backfill and support by trying to keep things going at home while the others are out responding to the mission.  If there was a very active VSAF program I could see the potential for some CAP members filling in for individual AF members that were sent to help in the mission.  But, we're not set up to do that at the moment.

A lot of backfills are done by the Guard and Reserve components. While a nice concept to make us useful, I don't see that happening either.

FYI, from a message sent to CG Aux members today:....

Coast Guard messages, actions and policies do not apply to CAP. I don't see why you even included this.

[PHall]

Ok...Here we go.

I have been in CAP 19 years, as a Cadet and Senior.  This organization has gone through ups and downs....a handfull of members have real world experience, Military, Federal, State...and so on.  But the vast majority of CAP members are are own worst enemy.  National HQ needs to start to educate the members on Emergency Management and how the 'Real World' works.  If not we are going to continue to dig ourselves deeper.  I have been on many disasters in the Fire Service and Emergency Mgt in a leadership capacity.  For the most part when CAP shows up to an incident , Our appearance is not up to par...We think we are the 'Authority' in anything military related, and when asked to step up to the plate we regularly fall on our face...   There are many Wings that are simply 'Banned' from any SAR or DR work in their State.    We need to become more professional , and listen to the Emergency Managers trying to help us.  But some (most)  just don't get it!  Our future is in disaster ops..... We need to let the ego's go and start to learn! 


Regards

NWCG Type I COM-L
FEMA Type II Incident Commander
Certified Emergency Manager
Fire Service Officer
Paramedic

But again... I may not have any real word experience...

With all of that "experience", why do you waste your time with us "fools"?

[RiverAux]

Hawk, I can't do all your research for you.  If you don't know one of the explicit purposes for which Congress chartered CAP by sight, then look it up yourself.  Its easy to find.  Its in CAP regulations too, by the way. 

[SarMaster]

PHall,

Thats a good question..  It used to be fun...now I even question that!

[Flying Pig]

Ok...Here we go.

I have been in CAP 19 years, as a Cadet and Senior.  This organization has gone through ups and downs....a handfull of members have real world experience, Military, Federal, State...and so on.  But the vast majority of CAP members are are own worst enemy.  National HQ needs to start to educate the members on Emergency Management and how the 'Real World' works.  If not we are going to continue to dig ourselves deeper.  I have been on many disasters in the Fire Service and Emergency Mgt in a leadership capacity.  For the most part when CAP shows up to an incident , Our appearance is not up to par...We think we are the 'Authority' in anything military related, and when asked to step up to the plate we regularly fall on our face...   There are many Wings that are simply 'Banned' from any SAR or DR work in their State.    We need to become more professional , and listen to the Emergency Managers trying to help us.  But some (most)  just don't get it!  Our future is in disaster ops..... We need to let the ego's go and start to learn! 


Regards

NWCG Type I COM-L
FEMA Type II Incident Commander
Certified Emergency Manager
Fire Service Officer
Paramedic

But again... I may not have any real word experience...

With all of that "experience", why do you waste your time with us "fools"?

OK.  So your a Firefighter-Paramedic?  I mean is that what you do? 

[Hawk200]

Hawk, I can't do all your research for you.  If you don't know one of the explicit purposes for which Congress chartered CAP by sight, then look it up yourself.  Its easy to find.  Its in CAP regulations too, by the way.

In other words, you don't have a reference. Nice try, River. Hasn't flown the last few times, won't now.

[SarMaster]

Im actually a Professional Emergency Manager,  and a part time NASAR Instructor.
Was a Fire Medic  for 8 years.

Type I CAP IC....blah blah blah...


?But that doesn't mean anything to CAP....

In order for CAP to be taken seriously we need to act like professionals. Not like wannabees.  Cadets have there place (I used to be one)  but Disaster and SAR is not the place. When we are called upon we are expected to preform just like per say a volunteer fire dept would. Trained, equipped and professional.  You don't see 12 year old Vol Firefighters carrying 75 lbs backpacks in the woods do you?  Instead we show up as ' know it alls' that look like we just slept in our uniforms. 
Just recent in a search for a missing person CAP went to the Sheriff ICP and lectured the Sheriff IC on how to properly conduct a 'Hasty' search, and how they were not utilizing ICS properly.... This is why we need to tighten up and become professional 'responders' not wannabees!

Our image with Local , State and federal agencies is suffering. 

[BTCS1*]

On the subject of hams in Haiti, I was listening to the EchoLink node for the Haiti relief effort today and it seems that many hams are interested in helpig as net control, or to relay messages and whatnot. You could hear/see new guys check inti the net every few minutes wanting to help. 

[heliodoc]

Being a former EM type, current CAP type and former USAR ARNG helo mech type

CAP folks "gonna" get this mission?  Where's the Southern Command tasking order, Huh?

Got your shot records?  Think CAP's 24 or 72 hr pack is going to last??  Ready to live under a blue tent?  What US Army security forces are going to be tied up to support  Ms Courters' band of merry volunteers?   These thing have to be realized by CAP.  But by reading these posts, their are some folks that need a couple of hitches to Active Duty or some USAID and State Dept assignments, heck even Peace Corps, to get a REAL vision of what is really going on here.   CAP needs ALOT of TRAINING and CURRICULUM development and how about some real world taskings on our own Third World Native American reservations.  MAYBE then CAP MIGHT be able to be ready for a mission 1/72 the size of Haiti.

How =would that work in CAP and CAPers desires for some Third World equivalent work??   Before we get assigned overseas we best be doing some REAL work in the US and show up like we mean it rather than getting 64 CAP stragglers wanting to go home tomorrow

See those US&R types?? What kind of logistics train do you suppose THEY got???

Supposedly we "can be used in USAF non combatant taskings."  But let  US (CAP) REALLY be serious here.........

Where has our "DR" tasking" orders been for the last 40 yrs??  This is my second time around CAP  and I was a realist  in the last 40 yrs...

Better stay good at what we are currently tasked to do....OR  get those "PROFESSIONALS" at CAP NHQ to get up on Capitol Hill and start WORKING with FEAM and DHS and PROVE how good we are or AT LEAST BE WILLING TO WORK SOMEONE else's mission(s).

Prove to me....if alll the problems with one taxiway and one active runway....HOW do you suppose a CAP AOBD is trained to work with all that heavy iron and rotary motion going on....... CAP AOBD would just become the coffee and donut getter and quite possibly assist the AF on status boards.

Folks until we are TRUUUUUUULY trained up for REAL DR and its ancillary duties........Better get your CAP on and serve the missions right here in the States.  Keep dreamin til we get a real tasking  and then CAPers BETTER anticipate (like wildland fire) 2 to 3 week(s) assignments.. CAPers  think this assignment is for you??   Maybe see how far you get at the ARC chapter

When and if we get those.  Leave your bling and CAP "knowledge" at home.  Time to assimilate into someone else's mission taskings and assignments........CAP may not even like those

Hope for the best CAP in a mission tasking order!

[SarMaster]

Its about time someone with some brains chimed in...Thanks Doc!

[heliodoc]

No problem SarMAster

BUT I do not claim to have all the answers.

CAP just needs to be more realistic when it comes to world DR issues

Our day will come....will CAP really be ready?   We will see!!!

[Gunner C]

Its about time someone with some brains chimed in...Thanks Doc!

Wow, you must be a real hoot at squadron meetings.  Can you say anything without an insult?