Wing callsigns

[Senior]

WIWAC, late 80's through early 90's Missouri Wing commo call sign was
Bluebird.  When did they change all the Wing call signs?  Why did they change the call signs?

A side note I was a cadet when the new ES cards started, and the new
bling GT badge(I always thought somebody wanted something that looked like paratrooper wings).

Another question, When did they change the old ES patch (with the plane)
to the Dog?  I was browsing CAP blog sights and saw that goofy patch.
What are they thinking(clown suit)?

[brasda91]

You know, not all the Wings changed.  KY was Middleground.  I'm guessing it was around 2000 when some of the callsigns changed.

The new patch has been around for a few years also.  Can't tell you how long ago.  Can't keep track of things like that.

[mikeylikey]

PAWG is/ was PENCAP

[_]

Another question, When did they change the old ES patch (with the plane)
to the Dog?  I was browsing CAP blog sights and saw that goofy patch.
What are they thinking(clown suit)?

I believe the dog was the/an original ES patch in the late 40's, early 50's.  It changed roughly 8 years ago.  I'm probably off by a year or two.  I know when I earned the patch In 97 I wore the old one (and still do).

Also apparently the callsigns are probably going to change again soon.  I've heard that some of our calllsigns duplicate actual military callsigns and they don't like that.  And there is apparently the feeling that "CAP flight" makes people think of combat air patrol so that will probably change. 

[W3ZR]

PAWG was "KEYSTONE" in the 80's, I was told the reason they
changed, but it escapes me now. I think it may have been a
real military unit claimed that as their own.

[Pylon]

I remember New York Wing's as being "EMPIRE", but it is now "WHITE PEAK".  It changed, I think, sometime between the late 90's and early 2000's.

[_]

PAWG was "KEYSTONE" in the 80's, I was told the reason they
changed, but it escapes me now. I think it may have been a
real military unit claimed that as their own.

Weren't they still using it in the mid 90's?  I remember hearing it sometime when I was still up in NJ.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Iowa = IOWA CAP


Suppose "Victory over Corn CAP" would be too long.....

[W3ZR]

Weren't they still using it in the mid 90's?  I remember hearing it sometime when I was still up in NJ.

I don't know exactly when it changed, I disappeared from CAP in 1987
when I discovered, *GASP* GIRLS ! ***

***
Note to male cadets:  Girls are the devil, complete your training.   
Note to female cadets: Boys are just as bad, finish your training too.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Note to male cadets:  Girls are the devil, complete your training.   
Note to female cadets: Boys are just as bad, finish your training too.

Note to officers......Same thing

[dwb]

NYWG changed from Empire to White Peak because some other agency was using Empire and apparently there was a spat about CAP using it.

It's too bad... Empire One made a really cool name for a Wing newsletter (back when there was a Wing newsletter)

[BlueLakes1]

You know, not all the Wings changed.  KY was Middleground.  I'm guessing it was around 2000 when some of the callsigns changed.

I've heard from a reliable source that KYWG looked to go back to a better callsign than "KY CAP", but any callsign that was remotely related to Kentucky has already been taken by someone else. KyANG has used "Derby" for quite a while.

(Even though I belong to INWG now, I live in Louisville and play in KYWG a lot. Former cadink in KY-039 and SM in KY-214.)

[TDHenderson]

I remember a little further back when each Wing had three distinct call signs, one for fixed base, one for air, and one for ground mobile.  Iowa was Cornstate for fixed base, Bulldog for ground, and I believe it was Cyclone for aircraft.

Then they collapsed down to one (Cornstate) using Mobile and Air for identifiers (Cornstate 58 Mobile, for instance).

[mikeylikey]

PAWG was "KEYSTONE" in the 80's, I was told the reason they
changed, but it escapes me now. I think it may have been a
real military unit claimed that as their own.

The Penna National Guard uses Keystone, so on some missions with the Guard, there were some miscommunications etc.  However, PAWG used KEYSTONE since the beginning of CAP, before the guard "took" the callsign.

[Ricochet13]

I remember a little further back when each Wing had three distinct call signs, one for fixed base, one for air, and one for ground mobile.  Iowa was Cornstate for fixed base, Bulldog for ground, and I believe it was Cyclone for aircraft.

Then they collapsed down to one (Cornstate) using Mobile and Air for identifiers (Cornstate 58 Mobile, for instance).

Veteran members relate that my wing once had . . . humm . . . you know it just occurred to me that revealing any current call signs might be a violation of OPSEC.     Is someone going to do a "gotcha" over this?   Maybe not as this is in a historical context regarding call signs no longer used.

[Hartley]

Hi Guys,

  Pretty much all of CAP's callsigns changed in the mid-90's when CAP joined the DoD callsign registry and most of the ones we had been using were already taken by other DoD units.  The "CAPFlight" callsign is registered with the FAA, not DoD, though it is listed with DoD as well - and I doubt it will be changing anytime soon.
  Yes. it is possible to get a Wing's callsign changed - your DC would be the primary POC for that, but it wouldn't be effortless..:-)

  All of the Wing Callsigns are available on the "protected" Comm website - click on the "Current Callsign List".

73 DE Hartley

[Brad]

SCWG has Sandlapper, heh, so named for the fact that the early settlers used to eat the clay so commonly found in this state.

Anyways, yea the CAPFLIGHT callsign is strictly for FAA use, i.e. speaking with ATC, FSS, etc.

[jimmydeanno]

NHWG used to be "Profile" and is now "Abenaki."  Profile hinted at the Old Man of the Mountain.  Abenaki relates to a Native American Tribe that was native to the area.

[AlphaSigOU]

Florida Wing's old call signs:

Ground: SPARROW
Mobile: CRANE
Airmobile: EAGLE

<-- was CRANE 1053 WIWAC.

I'll keep the current call sign 'Herkos Odonton' (Greek for 'behind the hedge of the teeth' - literally 'keep it quiet')

[ZigZag911]

Jersey was "Zigzag" for land, "Domino" for mobile.

Changed to "Red Dragon" in the 90s in honor of our long time wing CC
mid 50s to early 70s), Col. Nanette Sears, AKA "The Dragon Lady" (which was the name of a character in the aviation related comic strip 'Terry & the Pirates')

[_]

Jersey was "Zigzag" for land, "Domino" for mobile.

Changed to "Red Dragon" in the 90s in honor of our long time wing CC
mid 50s to early 70s), Col. Nanette Sears, AKA "The Dragon Lady" (which was the name of a character in the aviation related comic strip 'Terry & the Pirates')

I never heard that story.  I had always thought it was because of the Jersey Dragon aka the Jersey Devil.

[RiverAux]

I'd hate to lose CAP Flight for our planes.  Assuming that we would still retain our own special moniker and not return to using plane N numbers, I wonder what it might be?  Aux Flight? 

[ZigZag911]

Jersey was "Zigzag" for land, "Domino" for mobile.

Changed to "Red Dragon" in the 90s in honor of our long time wing CC
mid 50s to early 70s), Col. Nanette Sears, AKA "The Dragon Lady" (which was the name of a character in the aviation related comic strip 'Terry & the Pirates')

I never heard that story.  I had always thought it was because of the Jersey Dragon aka the Jersey Devil.

Nope, although a lot of people, even NJ members, think that's so, I think mostly because of the hockey team!

[SDF_Specialist]

I've been trying so hard to not get involved in this conversation because of OPSEC, but I can't resist a good Comm topic. When I was a cadet (2001-2003) Ohio was Red Thunder. When I came back as an Officer in 2005, it was Columbus. I've asked several people as to why the switch, but I can never get the same story, so I just don't worry about it. RedFire11, I believe I've heard you on the nets a couple times. I have to get back on HF.

[W3ZR]

OPSEC is indeed serious business, but I can't
let a good picture go to waste.



Move along, there is nothing for you to see here.

[SarDragon]

Jersey was "Zigzag" for land, "Domino" for mobile.

Changed to "Red Dragon" in the 90s in honor of our long time wing CC
mid 50s to early 70s), Col. Nanette Sears, AKA "The Dragon Lady" (which was the name of a character in the aviation related comic strip 'Terry & the Pirates')

I never heard that story.  I had always thought it was because of the Jersey Dragon aka the Jersey Devil.

Totally true. Col. Spears was CC WIWAC, '64 - '69 timeframe. There's also a patch commemorationg her:



Could somebody sizeify this, please? (And then PM me the code so i can lose it again?)

EDIT: IMG size - TA

[♠SARKID♠]

Okay, Recruiter brought it up and I've been in the same boat.  Isn't this some bad opsec here?  Maybe its not in the secured section of the NTC site, but it's still bad juju in my book.  This is also coming from someone who got home from a mission today, checked his email, and in his google blog alerts for CAP found a link to a forum thread where our day's mission was being listened to and periodically posted about (crews, locations, sitreps ((though false)), freqs, etc)

[mikeylikey]

Reading these posts, OPSEC has not been violated.  I don't think anyone released current call-signs did they?  Call signs from 10 years ago, before the move to OPSEC are all public knowledge. 

PLUS...... perhaps you should take up the mission release with the person in charge of the mission.  I would suspect that the poster was in fact someone taking part in that mission.  That would be a violation of Cap's OPSEC.

Anyway, I have a security clearance on file with CAP, so I can read whatever you fools put out on this forum.  And I Herby grant Secret Security Clearances to everyone reading this so that we can continue to violate some OPSEC rules that no one even has any idea how to relate too.

Seriously talk about OPSEC.......why don't we get better Security Awareness training.  Instead of watching a 5 minute video and taking a crappy on-line test, we should have to sit through the AF 2 hour class.  Then we all will be like "OMG, I don't want to violate OPSEC or I will have to sit through that class again"

And on, and on, and on, and on.............

[Ricochet13]

Seriously talk about OPSEC.......why don't we get better Security Awareness training.  Instead of watching a 5 minute video and taking a crappy on-line test, we should have to sit through the AF 2 hour class.  Then we all will be like "OMG, I don't want to violate OPSEC or I will have to sit through that class again"

How about putting something together and recommending it?  Would be nice to see something generated by one who is in the "trenches".  Might end up with a Security Awareness process that would be an improvement. 

[Nick]

Or, CAP could just go to "<Insert State Here> CAP" callsigns like half the country already is.

I would like to put in a reminder about OPSEC real quick.  OPSEC is "a process for identifying, controlling, and protecting generally unclassified information which, if it becomes known to a competitor or adversary, could be used to our disadvantage."

I can't imagine how the disclosure of a callsign would place CAP to a disadvantage, since there is (as we all know) no rhyme or reason from one wing to the next in how callsigns are assigned.  Frequencies?  Sure, I can understand that ... given the right transmit and tone settings, someone could maliciously interfere with our communications (why someone would want to, I'm not quite sure).  But I don't quite get the callsign deal.

[flyguy06]

I was a cadet in the 80's and 90's GAWG's callsign was Redstar. From what I understand they changed because some of them(like Redstar) were real USAF callsigns and to avoid confusion Iguess they changed them all.

[ZigZag911]

Odds are a given CAP radio station (assuming the 'bad guys ' have the frequencies, or have a scanner) will be VHF.

This of course means line of sight range, enhanced somewhat by repeaters.

The likelihood then, is that it's range will be limited to the geographical confines of the home wing, possibly spilling over into adjacent wings.

The 'bad guys' probably already know what state (i.e., wing!) they are listening in, so it really does not seem like an OPSEC situation.

[Gunner C]

Back in the 60s when I was a cadet in AKWG:

Mukluk = Mobile Station
Sourdough = Ground Station
Aurora = Airborne Station

GC

[SDF_Specialist]

Okay, Recruiter brought it up and I've been in the same boat.  Isn't this some bad opsec here?  Maybe its not in the secured section of the NTC site, but it's still bad juju in my book.  This is also coming from someone who got home from a mission today, checked his email, and in his google blog alerts for CAP found a link to a forum thread where our day's mission was being listened to and periodically posted about (crews, locations, sitreps ((though false)), freqs, etc)

Gotta love those hams who have/can find the frequencies. This is a major reason as to why you shouldn't give your location. Turkal, have you ever been on a team that works from laptops to relay information, or are you in one of those ares of WIWG that has a mountain in front of you, a mountain behind you, and hills everywhere else?

[♠SARKID♠]

^We don't relay from laptop to laptop.  No satellite connection if thats what you mean.

[SDF_Specialist]

Something like that. I mean from laptop to Mission Base. Doing this would dramatically cut down on radio transmissions, and keep a lot more sensitive material out of the eyes of those who don't need it

[♠SARKID♠]

Negative.  We don't have the capability.

[SDF_Specialist]

That sucks. From your posts, you sound as though you go on your fair share of missions. I was have someone from your unit talk to WIWG Logistics, or the Communications guy, and see about getting a laptop for such purpose.

[Frenchie]

The "CAPFlight" callsign is registered with the FAA, not DoD, though it is listed with DoD as well - and I doubt it will be changing anytime soon.

Actually it already has.  CAPFlight is actually no longer a valid callsign for CAP as far as the FAA is concerned.  Every FAA authorized callsign is assigned a 3 letter identifier.  CAP's used to be CPF.  This 3 letter identifier has now been assigned to a private company in the Ukraine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_codes-All

I'm not entirely sure how this happened.  My guess is there may have been a merging of ICAO and US callsigns at some point and CAP lost theirs.  I found an old listing from a couple of years ago which showed CPF still belonged to CAP.

The only valid FAA authorized CAP callsign is BXR "Box Kar" which is assigned to the South Carolina Wing.

Our local ATC still allows us to use CAPFlight, but technically this is not legal per the FAA.

[FW]

Old PAWG callsigns:  
Land: Keystone (Keystone State)
Mobile: Rollingstone (Local Beer)
Air:  Flightstone (just to keep it uniform)

Things changed about 10 years ago because CAP changed from FCC rules to NTIA rules for reasons I have no idea why.  Hence, the mass changing of call signs, the development of "tactical" call signs and the use of "CAP Flight".  

BTW, to my knowledge the prefix "CPF" is still allowed by all ATC's.  At least no one has bothered me about it.

[RiverAux]

Actually it already has.  CAPFlight is actually no longer a valid callsign for CAP as far as the FAA is concerned.  Every FAA authorized callsign is assigned a 3 letter identifier.  CAP's used to be CPF.  This 3 letter identifier has now been assigned to a private company in the Ukraine.

Hmmm, somehow I think that they would have told us if this had changed or the FAA might wonder about the huge US traffic by a Ukranian airline. 

[connelly]

^We don't relay from laptop to laptop.  No satellite connection if thats what you mean.

We actualy do have satellite acces but it is very limited. SDIS is used off of a T4 Satelite phone with limited access of outgoing SMTP only. That system is used to send images during missions from the aircraft to mission base without having to land. I still personaly would rather the old way of using Packet Radios and digipeaters but CAP did away with those a couple years ago.

[Frenchie]

Actually it already has.  CAPFlight is actually no longer a valid callsign for CAP as far as the FAA is concerned.  Every FAA authorized callsign is assigned a 3 letter identifier.  CAP's used to be CPF.  This 3 letter identifier has now been assigned to a private company in the Ukraine.

Hmmm, somehow I think that they would have told us if this had changed or the FAA might wonder about the huge US traffic by a Ukranian airline. 

The FAA did tell us.  They publish the list on a regular basis.

[RiverAux]

Please provide a citation. 

[CadetProgramGuy]

Best I could do......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airline_call_signs


Gotta look down below......

[Frenchie]

Please provide a citation. 

See CPF
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/CNT/3-3-C.htm

[RiverAux]

Interesting.  Anyone care to submit an inquiry to the knowledgebase on whether or not we should still be using CPF and "CAP Flight"?  I think I've used my personal quota of questions for them this quarter already. 

[CFI_Ed]

Anyone care to submit an inquiry to the knowledgebase on whether or not we should still be using CPF and "CAP Flight"? 

Done.

Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (KB Manager) - 01/30/2008 08:26 AM This has already been corrected; essentially OBE.  Info was sent to the FAA.  CPF and CAPFlight are Civil Air Patrol's.

JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr.
Deputy Director, Operations
Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters
HQ CAP/DO
105 South Hansell Street
Bldg 714
Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6332
E-mail: jdesmarais@capnhq.gov
Toll-Free Voice: (888) 211-1812 Ext 303