Feds restrict volunteers at disasters

[Eclipse]

So, I would argue that no other national organization does ground SAR as well as we do. 

And I probably wouldn't argue that on a national level.

What we should concentrate on is the SEARCHING part, and leave the RESCUE part to the pros.  Spread
100 of our volunteers eyes on an area, and let the rescue team standby for the hits.

That's an effective use of scarce resources and well within our existing program.

[arajca]

So, I would argue that no other national organization does ground SAR as well as we do.

And how many other national organizations do ground SAR?  I can think of only one.  The Mountain Rescue Association and I'd say its member teams do ground SAR as well as CAP.

Mike

MRA is a different animal than CAP. I don't see them exercising command and control over the various independent teams that are members. MRA is more of a professional certification organization like the NFPA, NREMT, etc.

[SARMedTech]

I think I may have said otherwise in a previous post, but for the most part, I think keep untrained volunteers away from a disaster site. If its under investigation, they will often muck things up. If its medical, let em carry litters but thats about it. Theres a reason disaster folks go through training.

[RiverAux]

Well, the MRA isn't really comparable.  It is more of an association of independent SAR teams.  It does have a unified credentially system, but the MRA isn't in charge of the local SAR teams and what they do.  

[ZigZag911]

True, only 10% of the GT tasks directly bear on air-ground coord and DF work....but how many of the others support that mission as much as any other?

Nationally (which is the way we're speaking here) our primary ES mission is Inland SAR, with the emphasis on the 'search' for a variety of reasons.

That has heavily emphasized non-distress ELT work for many years....perhaps that will change with new technology, hard to say.

Locally, wings and subordinate units certainly have the possibility to tailor their training (within CAP regs and policies) to serve community needs....and should be doing so.

[Eclipse]

The emphasis on the ground curriculum, especially GTM, is self-sufficiency.

We can, in theory, drop people into an area and expect them to be able to survive and provide assistance
for 3 days without resupply.

Considering we cost effectively zero to deploy, that's huge, no matter what duty we are assigned.

Anything more technical than the above is "gravy training", or state-specific, which is fine, but the above is the core, and we should be selling that hard.

[sardak]

Andrew and RiverAux,
I agree with your assessments that MRA is a different animal than CAP.  As an historical note, Colorado Ground SAR Team, in which membership was open only to CAP members, was an MRA Associate Team (not fully accredited in all three disciplines - technical rock, ice and snow, search).  Due to changes in MRA, CAP and other politics, the team dissolved several years ago.

Mike

[DNall]

It seems to me there is a reason so many of these first responders are, in fact, paid professionals: namely, it takes full time commitment to do the training, study, practice and preparation involved in carrying out these responsibilities properly.

I'm an IC/AL with experience in comm, planning, UDF and mission observer.

If disaster strikes my community and the best way I can help is by making bologna sandwiches, or driving a CAP van full of MREs from shelter to shelter, or doing admin work on a computer, I'll do it gladly.

If I'm needed to coordinate the CAP contribution as Agency Liaison, that's fine too.

What I'm not...and what virtually none of the personnel available to me are, either -- is a substitute for professional first responders.

We supplement....we serve as force multipliers....we help.

That's what CAP does.

I'm sorry I had to rush out of town after getting this started last wknd, and I have drill in the morning too. This was a great answer though & I wanted to follow up.

First I would take VERY strong issue with the idea that part-time folks cannot do the job on the same level. Volunteer firefighters & reserve law enforcement can; and at least in my state they meet the exact same qualification & currency standards & their paid-full-time counterparts. The National Guard can, and don't for a second tell me about that BS paycheck that literally doesn't cover half the gas I spend going to drills. The state guard (SDF) in my state does & they get paid per deim only during actual deployments & still less than the gas they burn getting to/from them. EOC volunteers at the State & County level do & they don't get crap. Down toward the bottom you get stuff like Red Cross & CERT that are kind of on the line. Then there are dedicated volunteer search organizations in some places that are many times superb. That mostly brings to mind the mountains, but around here we have a dog search crew, a swiftwater team, and of course there's equisearch.

Don't tell me CAP cannot make the grade, that's a giant cop out & I won't stand for it.

Today, CAP is not today in the rescue business, and neither do we recover the remains of people or stuff after the fact. We just do search, and call for help. That's fine for UDF that turns into something, and passable for a redcap where it's 99.5% likely they're dead & we're just fulfilling the govt's obligation to give it a fair look.

It's not fine when you sell the govt on that force being a capable SaR organization to get your funding; it's not fine when you walk up on someone in real trouble & you don't know what to do; it's not fine when you try to sell & apply that force to a distater situation; it's not fine when you're malfeasent with this massive capability so that it can't be brought to bear on real HLS issues in any significant way. We know where the future is, and we know planes aren't going to go & stay disappeared at the rate they did 50 years ago.

Yes, if a major disaster befalls my community/state/nation & the best they got for me is filling sandbags or hauling crap around, then sure I'll help out, BUT I'll be pissed as hell after the fact that I spent a considerable amount of my personal time & fortune to actually be in the fight. It's one thing if that's all the fight there is; it's entirely another when people are out there in trouble, I have the equipment & capability to do something about it, and I'm sitting at home cause my organization can't get it's crap together.

I think we're all here to make a difference - that's sure as hell is what we sell to visitors - when do we get that chance? What has to be done to make CAP change?

Personally, I see FEMA/DHS saying un/semi-trained volunteers are beyond useless that they are actually a huge hinderence to real responders. I see them coming out with this smart card program specifically designed & upfront stated that it's to keep such idiots away from the real work. And I see CAP not right this second making the cut. So, my great hope is that it gets CAP off its collective duff & forces the paradigm shift & reorganization necessary to put us in the real game. That end-state is the CAP I want to be part of, I don't know about yall.

[RiverAux]

In regards to major disasters CAP does not have a real strategy for participating in the response other than sending aircrews to take photographs and do light cargo transport.  We''ll meet and exceed whatever standards become official for that.

However, there is no emphasis on developing the potential of our ground forces to participate in such disaster response since all our teams are TRAINED to do is light SAR work, of which there is very little need after a major disaster. 

However, I don't see this as a problem.  So what if our ground teams aren't tasked after a major disaster.  They only come along every now and again.  However, there are dozens (if not many more) of opportunities in most states to use our ground teams in missing person SAR.  That should be our bread and butter. 

Now, if CAP wants to actually sit down and think about what role we should play in major disaster and focus on a few key areas where we might be most helpful, that would be great, but they need to develop in-house training for it so that our folks can do the job.  In the meantime, CAP is really as useless as other untrained volunteers for most things that need to be done after a disaster.  The good thing is that this makes us no different than the average National Guardsman who also has not specific disaster response training either.

[ZigZag911]

DNall, you make some interesting points....perhaps this is precisely what needs (at least in part) to be the distinction between GTM3 (basic level) and GTM 1 or 2 -- capabilities to actually execute the rescue aspects of the mission.

The current required tasks, in some cases, almost seem more appropriate for GTL -- for instance, plan, organize, and control a search line.

[Dragoon]

The GTM 1,2, and 3 seem to be primarily designed to give cadets reason to go to NASAR more than once.

Since 60-3 doesn't put any doctrinal limits on what missions various levels of GTMs can do, nor describe how to type classify a team of mixed assets, the whole thing isn't helping very much.

But it could, done correctly.

[Dragoon]

First I would take VERY strong issue with the idea that part-time folks cannot do the job on the same level. Volunteer firefighters & reserve law enforcement can; and at least in my state they meet the exact same qualification & currency standards & their paid-full-time counterparts. The National Guard can, and don't for a second tell me about that BS paycheck that literally doesn't cover half the gas I spend going to drills. The state guard (SDF) in my state does & they get paid per deim only during actual deployments & still less than the gas they burn getting to/from them. EOC volunteers at the State & County level do & they don't get crap. Down toward the bottom you get stuff like Red Cross & CERT that are kind of on the line. Then there are dedicated volunteer search organizations in some places that are many times superb. That mostly brings to mind the mountains, but around here we have a dog search crew, a swiftwater team, and of course there's equisearch.

So if part timers can do it as well as full timers, we can fire all the full timers, right?  After all, part timers are cheaper - and if we paid them even a little, we could have oodles more of them.


Sorry, I just don't buy that.  Training for something 40 hours a week beats the heck out of training 20 hours a month.

It's nice rhetoric, but iIMHO t's just unrealistic.

Whatever your day job is, I'm sure you do it MUCH better than a guy who only does it a few day a month. Simple math.  Experience and sheer repitition count for a lot.

CAP is the same way - our value isn't that we can out-do the paid professionals - it's that we can do things they don't train for (where we have the advantage), and that we can supplement the tasks they are trained for during surge situations.

[Ned]

Sorry, I just don't buy that.  Training for something 40 hours a week beats the heck out of training 20 hours a month.

It's nice rhetoric, but iIMHO t's just unrealistic.

Sorry, it's a strong argument, not mere rhetoric.

Just think back to your Army experience.

One of the reasons the Guard and Reserve are as successful as they are is they get to devote their time pretty much exclusively to training (at least in peacetime) and they are generally work consistently together as a cohort while training or operationally.

While the AD guys do work hard to train, they are constantly distracted by real world missions as well as mountains of adminsitrivia that conspires to prevent them from good collective training.

[War Story]  I was a Guard MP company commander, and my unit was evaluated every year during AT by an AD MP officer, invariably a O4 or O5 MP with previous command experience.  And using the Army-wide standards that applied to all units -- AD, USAR, & NG.  I always felt a little inferior to our AD counterparts because I believed, as you do, that we only train a weekend a month and two weeks in the summer, so how could we hope to measure up to our AD counterparts?

My revelation came later when I returned the favor and served as a senior evaluator for an AD MP company.  I felt sorry for the poor company commander as he struggled against overwhelming forces -- he had trouble mustering 40% of his unit into the field because of leaves, profiles, & schools.  Things that NG units do not normally have to deal with during IDT or AT.  Not to mention deployments (he had one platoon deployed to the Sinai).

So of course his collective training sucked, and his unit was barely able to achieve a passing score on the evaluation.

The point being that a USAR/NG MP company could easily have stepped right in and done as well as our beleagured AD brethren.  [/war story]

Similarly, it is not hard to imagine that volunteer firefighters and reserve cops who meet the same standards as their full-time counterparts could step into a full-time role temporarily and do well.

The problems arise, as you mention, in sustainment.  The part-timers are part-timers for a reason.  And those pesky "regular" jobs and families get irritated when we surge the volunteers.

That's where a Civil Air Patrol Civil Relief Act could be of assistance.

[Dragoon]

Sorry, I just don't buy that.  Training for something 40 hours a week beats the heck out of training 20 hours a month.

It's nice rhetoric, but iIMHO t's just unrealistic.

Sorry, it's a strong argument, not mere rhetoric.

Just think back to your Army experience.

I have been. That's partially where my statement came from.  I have spent a fair amount of time training and evaluating Reserve Component units over the years.

One of the reasons the Guard and Reserve are as successful as they are is they get to devote their time pretty much exclusively to training (at least in peacetime) and they are generally work consistently together as a cohort while training or operationally.


While the AD guys do work hard to train, they are constantly distracted by real world missions as well as mountains of adminsitrivia that conspires to prevent them from good collective training.

The cohort part is definitely true.

But the other part...

I've seen units spend 1/2 their drill weekend drawing and turning in their equipment, leaving about 8 hours to train.  And then they have to pull guys out for PT tests, NCO boards, etc.

I've seen guard units give up an entire day of their AT for a "Family Day".  Add in the time to draw and turn in equipment, and that two week AT was about 9 days of training.

I've seen the extensive train up it takes before a unit is truly fully mission capable capable.  After the trainup, of course, the guys are golden.  But that train up is done after activation - not before.  It's full time training.  As in "just like active duty." 

The training gap is least in specialities where the real-world civilian skills are applicable - like a bunch of real life doctors in a medical unit.  Or a bunch of real life airline pilots in a transport flying unit.    In fact, sometimes these guys have the edge over their active duty counterparts.  I'd take an inner city ER doctor reservist  over your average army doctor to treat my bullet wound any day.

The current guard and reserve, of course, have the advantage of so many previous deployments that there are a lots of vets to help things along.  After all, that year in the desert is "active duty," regardless of who pays your salary.  Right now, there's really not much of an experience difference.

This has nothing to do, with enthusiasm or dedication, it's pure hours devoted to training.  Also to doing the job day in and day out. 

Given a choice, I'll take the heart surgeon who does the operation 10 times a week over the guy who does 1 a month.  Simple

In the same way, I don't expect a CAP ICP staffer to have the same mastery of his job as a USAF command and control specialiest.  And I certainly don't expect the same level of proficiency and skill from the pilots (if we did, I certainly would be ineligible to fly missions!)  No shame there - just an acknowledgement of reality.

[jimmydeanno]

The training gap is least in specialities where the real-world civilian skills are applicable - like a bunch of real life doctors in a medical unit.  Or a bunch of real life airline pilots in a transport flying unit.    In fact, sometimes these guys have the edge over their active duty counterparts.  I'd take an inner city ER doctor reservist  over your average army doctor to treat my bullet wound any day.

[offtopic]
Joke from the last AF Doctor I went to - "What does the guy who places last in his class at med school do after he graduates?  Becomes a military doctor."

Sorry, thought it was amusing, especially coming from a military doctor...[/offtopic]

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that there are almost no full-time people doing disaster relief or ground SAR as their sole job.  Pretty much everybody is doing it on a part-time basis whether they are being paid or are a volunteer. 

[Dragoon]

Keep in mind that there are almost no full-time people doing disaster relief or ground SAR as their sole job.  Pretty much everybody is doing it on a part-time basis whether they are being paid or are a volunteer. 

Yup. And that's why we add value just the way we are.  We've got the planes.

I've dealt with a few volunteer DR and SAR groups, and they seem at least as screwed up as we are.   

Now, here's a big question - how many "niches" should we fill? 

Should we expand into Urban SAR?  Scuba SAR?  Field Hospitals?

Or perhaps stick to our core competencies and leave that stuff to other organizations, while they leave ours to us?

[DNall]

So if part timers can do it as well as full timers, we can fire all the full timers, right?  After all, part timers are cheaper - and if we paid them even a little, we could have oodles more of them.

Sorry, I just don't buy that.  Training for something 40 hours a week beats the heck out of training 20 hours a month.

It's nice rhetoric, but iIMHO t's just unrealistic.

Whatever your day job is, I'm sure you do it MUCH better than a guy who only does it a few day a month. Simple math.  Experience and sheer repitition count for a lot.

CAP is the same way - our value isn't that we can out-do the paid professionals - it's that we can do things they don't train for (where we have the advantage), and that we can supplement the tasks they are trained for during surge situations.

I didn't say out-do! I said can-do.

Think about guard troops... They should be fully qualified & combat ready. They may not practice on a daily basis, but they aren't posers. You MIGHT call them second string (and you might get punched for doing so), but they are still part of the same team & when they go to war no one knows the difference.

That's where CAP needs to be vis-a-vie professional responders.

The problems arise, as you mention, in sustainment.  The part-timers are part-timers for a reason.  And those pesky "regular" jobs and families get irritated when we surge the volunteers.

That's where a Civil Air Patrol Civil Relief Act could be of assistance.

That's absolutely correct!

[floridacyclist]

Here in FL, we are simply trying to get volunteers for a government agency the same rights and benefits as volunteers for Red Cross. Right now, if you work for the state and volunteer for RC, you get paid admin leave....but if you volunteer for the state EOC, you have to take your own vacation time. Maybe we can get it changed next session with the bill I'm trying to get through changing "Red Cross" to "government agency" and "declared disaster" to "documented emergency". Folks are actually starting to come on-board rather than trying to get individual NGOs recognized...if this gets passed, all they will need is a tracker request from DEM (a government agency as required by the proposed law) to be Bona Fide.

This would also cover CAP on AFRCC-requested missions as well as many other missions we may do. Of course, it only applies to State Employees, but county and city governments usually follow the state's personnel rules.

[DNall]

Keep in mind that there are almost no full-time people doing disaster relief or ground SAR as their sole job.  Pretty much everybody is doing it on a part-time basis whether they are being paid or are a volunteer. 

Yup. And that's why we add value just the way we are.  We've got the planes.

I've dealt with a few volunteer DR and SAR groups, and they seem at least as screwed up as we are.   

Now, here's a big question - how many "niches" should we fill? 

Should we expand into Urban SAR?  Scuba SAR?  Field Hospitals?

Or perhaps stick to our core competencies and leave that stuff to other organizations, while they leave ours to us?

But we don't know what we're doing! We're just a bunch of people with uniforms and a handful of planes. Our training is worthless in comparison to the standards FEMA is demanding of all responders. And our certification process of "do-it-yourself & someone who didn't see it will sign off," that's not acceptable. We have to be qualified by OUTSIDE standards & evaluators (who can be CAP members w/ outside certs). We can just walk up and say we're qualified. That doesn't make it true.



RiverAux mentioned "state-level missing person SaR" & not understanding what our ground crews would do in the relatively few disasters. He also mentioned photo recon & light transport on our air side. Let me address those...

That's first of all work for about 3 planes, not 100. I'd say that we need to be first in assets literally as soon as the wind clears enough to get in the airspace. Assessment needs to start with general survey to determine hardest hit areas (where to direct federal/state assets), then you need to evaluate potential operating bases & transportation routes to/from. You then go back to damage assesment & backfill the detail/answer requests, and you support comm. The rest need to be working SaR & comm (support of other agency comm as well).

Far as ground, you need to put that front end set of crews in to do initial damage assessment - like Florida RECON, only we can do it as a combined air/grd unit, and we can relay pictures taken on the ground or in the air directly to FEMA/Governor.

The first thing you do after you get set up at those bases is go look for missing people, planes, & boats! Some of that is going to be AFRCC, and some is just driving around systematically looking for people in trouble.

The big thing we bring to the table isn't just the planes. Alone, they aren't very meaningful. It's the combined air/grd unit w/ strong comms capability, and we should be further developing field command & control apparatus. That's what makes us important is that we can employ such forces at the lowest levels.