Venting about attitudes

[Duke Dillio]

Is that why I see the Hawk MTN Commander wlaking around with hard rank on his orange ball cap, a keystone patch on his pocket and a prototype beret (brownish color BTW)?

So, I will give him a call and ask him to invent some pink gloves to be worn with the uniform.  That would be ok right?

This thing with the brownish beret might be the last straw for me.  I can't tell you how angry a couple of us were when the Army went to the black berets while I was still on active duty.  I shut myself in my office and didn't want to talk to anyone.

Here is my take on CAP "Rangers."  While I understand that there is some form of tradition in the whole thing, i.e. it's been around for so long, etc., those who graduate must understand that they are not Rangers.  If anyone wants to argue this point with me, have at it.  As a tabbed and scrolled former active duty Army Ranger, I can assure you that a Hawk Mountain patch or qualification tab means diddly to me.  The few HM grads that I have had the displeasure to meet were cocky and couldn't DF a practice beacon in the middle of an open field.  I am sure that there are great people out there who have graduated HM and know quite a bit about being on a Ground Team.  I haven't met any of the good, only the bad.  Perhaps this is something else that should be brought up at Hawk.  It is simply a title, not a status.

That having been said, I don't personally have a problem with anyone who wants to be a Ranger.  It is a noble goal.  I will not be so pleasant when I meet the CAP "Ranger" comes up to me touting his "Ranger" qualification.  I will probably keep it simple with something like, "How long did it take for you to get that?" before I start with the stories of banging on a tree thinking it was a soda machine, or dragging my rifle for a couple miles through the swamp on its dummy cord because I was too tired to realize it wasn't in my hands.  If anyone wants to create a 61 day CAP Ranger school which tests the physical limits of GT members through extreme sleep deprivation and hunger, be my guest.  If you want to equip them with 100 lb rucksacks, go for it.  I don't think you will find anyone that would willingly attend it.  I went, against my better judgement, because I thought that I would be the roughest, toughest MOFO in the valley.  When I graduated, I was 60 pounds lighter, slept for three days, and no different than any of the other guys in my unit who went through it, like LTC Bowden said before.  No one ever really asked me about the tab after that which meant I couldn't tell all my funny stories from the course.  It didn't make me any better at my job but it did lead to a healthier "adult" life.  (Women tend to swarm toward the tab...)  And that's all I have to say about that...

[floridacyclist]

Refer back to http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2662.msg49297#msg49297

Ranger to me is not a noun, or at least not a pronoun, it is the name of a training program and an adjective describing the training at the school. Sometime it is simplest to refer to those who have done the training and earned some level of achievement as "rangers" but I would always preface that with what type of "ranger" (a CAP ranger). That doesn't make them any more special than a forest ranger, a Texas ranger (baseball), a park ranger, or a Royal Ranger. It is just a name and the important thing is not that someone is a "Ranger" but that they have fun, learn some GT, leadership, and teamwork skills and are excited and motivated about being part of CAP. It's mostly all in fun and I honestly think that a lot of people (including some "rangers" who aren't part of our program) take themselves much more seriously than we do.

This takes me back to the very first post in this thread. All I was asking for is folks not using the R word as an excuse to make snide remarks or other comments not befitting an officer. We all enjoy our CAP time in different ways, none better than others. In the same manner that I don't poke fun at pilots, I'd appreciate the same courtesy and consideration. I am actually in agreement with many of y'all about the attitudes and such of many so-called "Rangers", but I think that the best way to affect them is from within, by addressing the training and acknowledging that "advanced training" and youthful testosterone are sometimes not the greatest combination. I think we should accept that these kids are rightfully proud of themselves while continuing to educate them on what it really means; they are no better or worse than anyone, but they should still try to spread their enthusiasm without letting it all go to their heads.

Somewhere in the middle there is a good compromise between shooting these kids down in flames vs harnessing their youthful energy and motivation for a good cause. I think it is up to us to try to find that.

[Dragoon]

In reference to the argument "the Army doesn't have a copyright on the word 'RANGER' " - that may be true.

But

If you ask a guy off the street what comes to his mind when a dude in BDUs is identified as a "ranger"....

.....he'll tell you that the guy must be  some kind of beady eyed killer commando.

Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of it, "military" + "ranger" = commando, in almost everyone's eyes.  Nobody's thinking of "Park Rangers" when BDUs and LBEs are involved.

Which is the best reason to change the name.  Not only because our rangers aren't "real rangers", but because none of us are killers of any sort!

[JC004]

...
Which is the best reason to change the name.  Not only because our rangers aren't "real rangers", but because none of us are killers of any sort!

tell that to the Hawk rabbits.      and Florida rangers...alligators?   

[floridacyclist]

You said it there...don't get between me and a plate full of fried gator tail I heard a recipe the other day for gator gumbo that I'd love to try out.

[afgeo4]

I don't know what streets you're asking on, but I've asked a handful of people here in New York and only 1 said "Army". The others said "Park" and "Ford".

Now... why does everyone assume that this program has anything to do with the Army Rangers?

That's like assuming that the Army Rangers were patterned on the Forest Rangers (they were around far longer).

The word "Ranger" comes from the word Range. It means someone who feels comfortable or is from a range type of environment... outdoors... out on the range kind of people. That's all it means. Stop reading so much into it and you'll find yourself comfortable with the term's use by CAP.

Also, please stop applying US Army Ranger creed and mission requirements to CAP. For the last time, WE ARE NOT THE MILITARY!  We have no combat objectives. We do NOT place the mission before the man. We have our own missions and parameters and they are needed by our nation just as much as the military is, but... it's not the same thing!

[JC004]

You said it there...don't get between me and a plate full of fried gator tail I heard a recipe the other day for gator gumbo that I'd love to try out.

mmm, in that case, if I were a ranger, I would wish to be a Florida kind...

[BillB]

Go back in history and you'll find the first use of the word Ranger was Rogers Rangers in the Revolutionary War. Obviously prior Ford Ranger or Park Ranger. To most Americans, their exposure toi "Ranger" came from the World War II and post war movies about the Army Rangers.

[afgeo4]

Go back in history and you'll find the first use of the word Ranger was Rogers Rangers in the Revolutionary War. Obviously prior Ford Ranger or Park Ranger. To most Americans, their exposure toi "Ranger" came from the World War II and post war movies about the Army Rangers.

Are you assuming or is this verified research data? Because you know what they say about assumptions...

[afgeo4]

here's what I got from Wikipedia:

Ranger may mean a keeper, guardian, or soldier who ranges over a region to protect the area or enforce the law ("range" meaning "travel around an area"). In Britain, the term has long been associated with a keeper of a royal forest or park. Likewise, in the US the term has meant a warden employed to maintain and protect a natural area, such as a government forest or park. Since at least the 18th Century, the term has had the military meaning of a commando or guerrilla soldier proficient in raids and ambushes. Sports teams have been avid in adopting the mystique of the name.

I don't see the U.S. Army or CAP mentioned anywhere... all I'm seeing is "Britain", "forest", "park", "US" "natural area", etc. I see references to commandos and gurrilla soldiers, but nothing specific to the US Army or CAP.

I'm gonna guess the term is a general term that refers to many things, none being specific to either of those two enteties. If you disagree, I'll book you a trip to meet some of the Irish Rangers (UK Army elite unit that patrolled Belfast and Northern Ireland). They'll be all too happy to argue with you.

[floridacyclist]

Maybe if most Americans served in the Army they might assume you mean Army Ranger, but the vast majority don't. If you tell the average American that your nephew is a Ranger, I doubt they're going to assume he wears camo facepaint and carries an M-4.

Either way, we don't pretend to be Army Rangers even though we've been known to coordinate training with them. If our upcoming survival school had not run afoul of the chain of command (it broke somewhere over my head), we would have conducted next weekend's 3-day survival school at Eglin AFB's Camp Rudder...also known as the Battallion HQ of the 6th Army Ranger Training Battallion and the Jungle Warfare Training Center. They didn't seem to have a problem with us being there, in fact the XO said that if his people didn't have other commitments, they would have been able to help with the training as far as survival instruction and supervision of the hands-on portion.

[afgeo4]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a survival summer activity aligned with the SERE course at Fairchild AFB?

[floridacyclist]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a survival summer activity aligned with the SERE course at Fairchild AFB?

According to the SERE instructors who were supposed to be teaching our course, the folks at Fairchild work with outside groups all the time.

[afgeo4]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a survival summer activity aligned with the SERE course at Fairchild AFB?

According to the SERE instructors who were supposed to be teaching our course, the folks at Fairchild work with outside groups all the time.

I don't have the pull to make this happen... and I'm on the other coast. Can someone ask around about this? I think it'd be a very popular activity and since the USAF is looking for all airmen to go through SERE in the near future, they may be interested in financing it to some degree insuring that CAP cadets who enter the Air Force in the future will already be somewhat familiar with the concept.

[Stonewall]

As I stated in my original post in this discussion, my "problem" has nothing to do with the word/title "ranger".

I wish we could get beyond that argument.... Please....  It's so irrelevant.

[Sgt. Savage]

This thing with the brownish beret might be the last straw for me.  I can't tell you how angry a couple of us were when the Army went to the black berets while I was still on active duty.  I shut myself in my office and didn't want to talk to anyone.

Sua Sponte SARGRUNT

I was gone before the blasphemy took place. I still have the original Black Beret w/ 3Batt and my crest...

You know, this whole thing really makes me angry. Take a bunch of kids, insert idealism that now their "Rangers", add lack of surevision. Stir.

It's a recipe for accident and attitude.

It doesn't matter one [darn] bit what "America" in general thinks a "Ranger" is; each and every cadet in the organization associates the term "Ranger" with the U.S. Army.

Try this. Change the Cessna 182 and call it an F-18. Go to a military base and try to pass yourself off as an F-18 pilot. Sure, the Navy hasn't cornered the market on the term "F-18". You can use it any way you want. It doesn't make you right, nor does it make the real Hornet Drivers very happy that some overweight, half bald civilian is posing as a pilot. Now, start acting like you're better than everone else because you fly an F-18.

And mind you, if I ever see a Hawk Mountain staffer wearing a Beret, I'll personally ....

I need to go calm down.

[Stonewall]

I need to go calm down.

Gear down big shifter.  It'll be okay.  So far, I haven't seen any CAP folks calling themselves "Ranger" wearing a beret of any color.  However, in Virginia Wing there were a group of seniors calling themselves a "Ranger Squadron" that wore the old WWII Ranger patch seen below...



Not sure if those guys are still around, but let me say, the bore no resemblence to that of a WWII Ranger or one of today.  In fact, one overweight (they all were) "Ranger" became a heat casualty during a July 4th search for a missing airplane.  Go CAP Rangers....

I did see a Cadet Captain wearing a maroon beret who completed PJOC.  He told me they had a "pararescue unit" in their CAP squadron....

[floridacyclist]

If I ever see a Hawk Mountain staffer wearing a beret, I'll probably puke. Remember, I'm the one with two Hawk Mountain staffers living under his roof. There was a little resistance at first when I told them they couldn't wear their ascots and white belts to the meetings, but they realized the point I was trying to get across and have given me no more problems. Most of the Hawk cadets I've worked with are good kids, but they do need their youthful enthusiasm and energy controlled and directed rather than allowed free reign; either way, I see that as more of an indictment of their leadership (or lack of) than the program.

[Dragoon]

Again

Use the word "Ranger" alone, and some folks will think "Park Ranger"

But use the word "Ranger" and attach a guy in BDU's to it, and the image the comes to mind is "killer."

After all, why would the kiddies be so attached to it if it didn't have that warrior connotation?

My guess is that if we made all Hawk graduates wear Park Ranger uniforms instead of BDUs, they'd be screaming to change the name....

[floridacyclist]

As I've pointed out before, the name itself doesn't really matter. It's just been around a lot longer than almost any of us have been in CAP and there's no way we're going to get it changed. In the meantime, have fun and enjoy the training and worry about things you can change....like bringing CAP's training in line with FEMA and NIMS standards.