Venting about attitudes

[Stonewall]

Doug.

Not sure where that happened but I agree, that seems unacceptable.  Not having been there or familiar with that situation, I truly can't speculate on whether or not that particular team(s) screwed the pooch or simply had some technical difficulties.

We can probably all tell stories of finding an ELT/EPIRB in a matter of minutes while other teams on the same mission were led astray by ghost signals or a lack of training.  That happens, man.  It may be the newest GTL leading a team of the newest GTMs on a simple DF missions, but you know what, you have to get experience some how.  Can't ding someone for getting out there and trying, even if their training and experience is limited.  At one time, all of our training and experience was limited.

As a GTM in FL (cadet daze) I showed up ot NATCAP not knowing about the handy-dandy Jetstream radios you can get at Radioshack for $14.  I was at Hyde Field in Maryland breaking out the DF mast when some super high speed 14 year old pulled out this little tiny toy of a reciever, did a body knoll, and had the ELT found in like 2 minutes.  21 year old senior member with 5+ years GTM experience gets taught a lesson from a 14 year old GTM(T).  How's that for humble pie?

[Skyray]

Well, Al told us what happened on one of them.  When I was driving planes for a living we used to get a lot of intermod interference.  That sounds like what that may have been in Memphis.  The signal from the shipping company reminds me of when we had one in a moving van and the MC called the state police to get the van stopped.  He told them that there was a device in the van "radiating" and they rolled the nuclear response team.

The little kid with the Radio Shack radio is a great story.  You can really do a lot with a body null.  Down here in the sailboat marinas it is about the only way to find something, since the signal bounces off the masts and seems to come from everywhere.

The guard radio that was left on was a problem because of no modulation.  None of the people looking for it knew haw to tell if you had a signal if you couldn't hear a sweep.  Training would solve that.

[floridacyclist]

The guard radio with no tone sounds like Tyndall..we used to go down there all the time, till PC got their own ground team. Now I just call the radio shop and ask them to turn it off.

The hardest DF I had was a no-tone signal at Ft Lauderdale Commercial. I was down that way for Glades and had a van full of PA Wing Hawk Mountain Rangers for a crew. All we had was a scanner and no air support. After checking the airport the first time (and the tower confirming no signal on the field) we spent several hours driving up and down the streets of Ft Lauderdale in the actual area of the merges. Just as I was about to candcel as a safety issue (lack of sleep) we were given orders to make one more sweep of the airport. With everyone else asleep, I was driving in and out of the little backroads around the perimeter with the squelch off when the radio got quiet. Disconnecting the antenna brought a burst of static which reconnecting killed.

We ended up body-blocking by listening for the MOST noise and using that as an indicator of the weakest signal, therefor pointing behind us. We called security and told them it was one of "those 3 airplanes" so they opened the gate and let us walk up to them with no antenna on the radio; only one airplane made it go quiet again.

We got called out for one more mission after that and it was a total fiasco with cadets disobeying orders, arguing with me, telling me what I should do, trying to get out and run around the FT Lauderdale Int'l terminal in BDU pants and orange t-shirts while waving antennas over their heads. At several points, I considered calling Col Martin and terminating the mission due to their nearly uncontrollable behavior. To top it off, we finally tracked it down to a maintenance area near the FBO and they only allowed one adult in with two kids, so I sent my younger SM in with them. They turned down the offer of my  scanner as a backup because it was "too old-school, plus we have an Elper now".  15 min later as they sheepishly returned looking for batteries, Col Herlihy showed up from the other direction to let me know that he had found it and turned it off.

That's my story about my bad experience with HM cadets..and an indicator of why I feel so strongly about fixing the problems rather than abandoning the program.

[Skyray]

The guard radio with no tone was a mobile GCA unit at Homestead.  It had an old fashioned "Transmit" toggle switch for testing, and it was left on.  When they finally got me on the case, I narrowed it down to the antenna, then followed the feed line to the trailer, which had an emergency contact number on the door.  After a h--- of an argument with an Air Force staff sargeant, I convinced him I knew what I was talking about, and he came out and turned off the transmitter.  He was a bit chagrined when he found the toggle switch on.

Sorry you had a problem with our cadets.  Some of them are spectacular, and some of them, especially the ones who have been spoiled by organizational favoritism, need severe discipline.  We had an incident a while back where one of the favorites disobeyed a direct order from a Spaatzen Captain, and Tony reduced the Captain to First Lieutenant for placing the cadet on restriction.  He had time in grade, so we promoted him right back to Captain as soon as Tony's back was turned.  Another reason some of the "leadership" down here doesn't like me.  You never know what damage is being done, though.  I saw the (now) former Captain at the Dade County Fair, and he is not even a member of CAP any more.  I better shut up before Horning jumps on me and drags this thread off topic, too.

[alamrcn]

I guess it's about the individual and their understanding of schools and hierarchy. Some use the training, some abuse the title.

Exactly.

If a cadet comes back cocky after Hawk - it wasn't the schools fault, as I know <been there> they do not teach that. They teach that being an "individual" (ie. selfish and egocentric) is the worst thing you can do as part of a SAR team.

Send the same cadet to NGSAR and he'll come back cocky. Promote him to Staff Sergeant among a bunch of Airmen and he'll be cocky.

Remember, a cadet has to have his commander and wing commander's approval before attending any National Activity or activity outside the wing. Most wings have extra hoops to jump through, like selection boards. It is all of their jobs to make sure the cadet has the aptitude and attitude to attend this type of activity, and to use the experience and training in a beneficial manor to the rest of his/her unit when he/she returns.

-Ace

[Pylon]

This thread has been restored following the removal of some serious unsportsmanlike conduct.  Serious folks, you can disagree with other peoples' points of view without being unprofessional about it. 

This thread should not come near that line again, should anybody wish to continue discussing it.  I don't need to spend my spare time wading waist deep through people's posts and removing objectionable content, name calling, and the like.

[mikeylikey]

I am sorry.   

I will try to be nice to everyone!  Except General Colgan.     I still can't log into the E-learning site!  I would like to vent some attitude about that, but may get banned. 

[JC004]

I am sorry.   

I will try to be nice to everyone!  Except General Colgan.     I still can't log into the E-learning site!  I would like to vent some attitude about that, but may get banned. 

That's because you did it wrong.  And because I banned you. 

[Stonewall]

As a cadet I Went to PJOC (back in the day when it was offered in WV if you can date that).  I came back feeling all special, and wanted everyone to know that I was special so I sewed that big silver signal panel looking PJ flash patch right on the pocket of my BDU's.  I walked into the next squadron meeting strutting a bit, and luckily there was my DCC to smack me back down to earth.  The patch came off and I settled back to earth. 

I've been dying to post this and I know he'll kill me, but I have to.  I forgot where he mentioned the "big PJ patch" and now it suddenly popped back up..... Thanks, Mike!

[mikeylikey]

I am sorry.   

I will try to be nice to everyone!  Except General Colgan.     I still can't log into the E-learning site!  I would like to vent some attitude about that, but may get banned. 

That's because you did it wrong.  And because I banned you. 

Be prepared for MAJOR ATTITUDE, to arrive in the form of a burning bag of poop. 

Back to venting.......I hate the fact that AAFES operators give attitude when a CAP member calls catalog sales to order uniform junk.  Like we are second class citizens.

I hate the attitude my SQD members get from the 19 year old gate guard when they try to attend meetings. 

I hate the attitude the Marine Corps 20 year old private gives to CAP members when they try to drive onto Willow Grove NAS in Philly.  Needless to say there is nothing of great importance at that facility, glad they are shutting it down.  BLAH Marine Corps.

I hate the attitude some PAID employees at NHQ give to members calling up to make them aware of mistakes they made that impeded the normalicy of operations. 

I hate the fact that the AF site lists the CAP link at the VERY bottom of the links section when it really should fall in front of Defense Commissary Agency.

I hate the fact that Vanguard is charging more for shipping from CAP members than they charge from service members when ordering from the Military side of the web store.  Then they give attitude and say "maybe order more stuff instead of a 70 cent item, then shipping will be worth it".

I hate the fact that Wing Vice Commanders AUTOMATICALY become Wing Commanders.  Why are we not voting for our Wing and Region Leadership?

DONE FOR NOW!

[SJFedor]

I hate the attitude the Marine Corps 20 year old private gives to CAP members when they try to drive onto Willow Grove NAS in Philly.  Needless to say there is nothing of great importance at that facility, glad they are shutting it down.  BLAH Marine Corps.

Everytime I went in there, the gate guards were US Navy SP's, not Marines. But, it's been a while since I've been there. If it was during the day time, I always went in the AF side entrance and dealt with the rent-a-cop (cuz the AF SF's are too cool to sit at the gate)

As for me, I can't think of anything I hate right now. I'll get back to you all on that.

[fyrfitrmedic]

 I'd like to say that the attitudes and behaviors I've vented about in the past have changed for the better. Unfortunately, I'd be wrong.

[smgilbert101]

I quickly locked him up at Parade Rest and lifted my BDU shirt pocket, where I wear my Ranger Tab. I had to let him know under no uncertain terms that his "Tab" didn't give him the authority to correct every trainer he encountered as though he were omnipotent and that if he ever disrespected me in my class again, he would not attend one.

It's good to see other professional ground pounders out there.  I think that you also answered a questions I've had about the tab and CAP uniforms (it's not authorized <grin><grrr>).

Pride or arrogance... those of us who are former/active military have seen this before.  When I was active duty, the more seasoned team members were fairly quick to keep the cherries heads out of the clouds.  IMHO, this is a leadership issue.  Yes, I believe that there should be some form of recognition for those cadet and senior members who wish to go "above and beyond" the basic GT tasks.  It can be a very strong motivator.  It also needs to be tempered with another one of our core values: "Mentoring".  In our group, I tell cadets that with their advanced training (Hawk, etc.) comes the responsibility to pass on those skills to more junior members.  I set an example for them to follow.

Through our Group CAC, the cadets have set up a SAR school.  Luckilly, I have not seen any of the "Hawk" attitude.  I have seen that they are very serious about what they do and what they teach.  I have seen that they wish to continue their ES training well above and beyond the very basic tasks taught in CAP. These are cadets who are about to transition into careers, into the senior program, who are looking to take the next step.  If they want to make ES their chosen profession, I say, go for it. If they want to go to one of the academies or become a PJ, I say go for it!  Isn't the point of the cadet program to teach young men and women how to excel?

In my on and off relationship with CAP (spanning over 30 years) The only gripe from the cadets I have seen is that the senior members do not take them seriously, the senior members do not "practice what they preach".  In several wings, I have seen ground teams (far too frequently) whose leadership is managed by a senior member whose waist line is several times larger than their inseam, yet they wear their GT "master blaster" badges and call themselves experts.  I've seen more than a few SM's with ego's ten miles wide tell wild stories about their exploits in SAR who couldn't last more than a few minutes "in the bush".  Then their are the cofeeholics who preach GSAR and spend ALL of their time in mission base on training missions instead of passing on their skills and mentoring more junior members.  Am I venting, yes, a little.

I keep hearing that they/we don't practice enough to be anything special.  Whose fault is that?  There is no rule that prevents this.  We encourage all this this extra effort in our honor guards and drill teams.  They are given props.....special uniforms/uniform items, etc.  Why is this discouraged in reference to ground teams?

Like all of the specialty areas our cadets can get into, we need to keep ego's in check.  We should also be encouraging our cadet to excel in whatever interests them.

In terms of our core mission areas..."Be All You Can be" (Sorry I just couldn't help it <grin>) instead of "Be All They'll Let You Be".

Airborne!

[floridacyclist]

From the best that I understand, the CAP Ranger tab is authorized over the US Civil Air Patrol tape and under the badge. I simply choose not to wear mine and encourage my cadets not to wear their's either, but rather to let their actions speak for them.

Even if they do wear it, It still doesn't make them "special".

[mikeylikey]

^ I have given up trying to understand that issue.  We see it approved, there is no written guidance, the leadership is seen wearing it, THUS we assume it is legitimate.  There are people who tell us "don't wear them", or "Do wear them".  I could care less now.  My major problem is there is no GUIDANCE from NHQ.  A simple letter saying "it was approved, it is still being incorporated, an Interim Change Letter is scheduled for release on.....". 

I have been outspoken on the whole Ranger thing, but this is an issue that goes beyond that.  Communications from NHQ and our senior leadership is lacking.  I do think with new leadership we will see better communication to the masses. 

Lets get some pressue on NHQ to write a Interim Change Letter, and lets get a new 39-1 out NOW!  How long were those letters supposed to sit around?  Like NO MORE THAN 90 DAYS before it was to be incorporated into the Reg's.

Yikes right?

[floridacyclist]

Gen Pineda was at our squadron meeting not long ago and was asked exactly what the policy was. He said flat-out that once the board approved it, it was good to go and that folks could wear whatever they had been awarded at Hawk or NBB with their BDUs.

[mikeylikey]

Got it.  Perhaps he could take 5 minutes and type up the letter.  I was unable to attend your SQD meeting that night (along with 43,000 other members, give or take 5,000)   

Seriously, things like that are a disservice.  At the board meeting they could have added "pending written guidance from NHQ, the special activities who award uniform items will publish uniform wear for those specific items in 30 days". 

[JC004]

Got it.  Perhaps he could take 5 minutes and type up the letter.  I was unable to attend your SQD meeting that night (along with 43,000 other members, give or take 5,000)   

Seriously, things like that are a disservice.  At the board meeting they could have added "pending written guidance from NHQ, the special activities who award uniform items will publish uniform wear for those specific items in 30 days". 

The National Board gave a blanket approval (Aug 06) of any/all items awarded at these activities (Hawk and NBB).  This gives basically unlimited authority to the activity commander to make up whatever they they feel like and add it to the uniform.  Tabs and all aside, I am not OK with that.

[mikeylikey]

Got it.  Perhaps he could take 5 minutes and type up the letter.  I was unable to attend your SQD meeting that night (along with 43,000 other members, give or take 5,000)   

Seriously, things like that are a disservice.  At the board meeting they could have added "pending written guidance from NHQ, the special activities who award uniform items will publish uniform wear for those specific items in 30 days". 

The National Board gave a blanket approval (Aug 06) of any/all items awarded at these activities (Hawk and NBB).  This gives basically unlimited authority to the activity commander to make up whatever they they feel like and add it to the uniform.  Tabs and all aside, I am not OK with that.

Is that why I see the Hawk MTN Commander wlaking around with hard rank on his orange ball cap, a keystone patch on his pocket and a prototype beret (brownish color BTW)?

So, I will give him a call and ask him to invent some pink gloves to be worn with the uniform.  That would be ok right?

[smgilbert101]

Actually, my tab comment referred to a US Army Ranger tab, sorry for any confusion.