Air Branch Director

[Full time cadet]

So I set this goal of becoming an Air Ops Branch Director as a Cadet once I complete my observer training. I have just completed my MS and AP rating over the Summer at NESA.

I am also trying to race my friend that is training for ground branch director.

Is it even possible for Cadets to get AOBD?

Thoughts, Comments?

[LSThiker]

So I set this goal of becoming an Air Ops Branch Director as a Cadet once I complete my observer training. I have just completed my MS and AP rating over the Summer at NESA.

I am also trying to race my friend that is training for ground branch director.

Is it even possible for Cadets to get AOBD?

Thoughts, Comments?

A branch director needs the ability to read regulations and understand them. So what does CAPR 60-3 say?

[EMT-83]

I get concerned when I read things like "trying to race my friend" towards positions where you are directly responsible for the safety and welfare of others. Very concerned.

It speaks volumes about your commitment and lack of maturity.

[Full time cadet]

I get concerned when I read things like "trying to race my friend" towards positions where you are directly responsible for the safety and welfare of others. Very concerned.

It speaks volumes about your commitment and lack of maturity.

"Excellence in all we do"

No need to be too concerned.

FYI That's not even an answer to my question.

[Alaric]

I get concerned when I read things like "trying to race my friend" towards positions where you are directly responsible for the safety and welfare of others. Very concerned.

It speaks volumes about your commitment and lack of maturity.

"Excellence in all we do"

No need to be too concerned.

FYI That's not even an answer to my question.

Think you missed the point Cadet, becoming a AOBD should not be about winning a race.  ES qualifications are not merit badges to be earned as quickly as you can.  Become an MO, then go on some missions (or exercises if there are no actuals) learn the job, before you try to become the person who directs the people doing the job.

[SarDragon]

FYI That's not even an answer to my question.

He's "teaching you how to fish", instead of just providing a single fish.

As you progress through CAP, you will be expected to properly research the regs before asking questions.

[Storm Chaser]

The only SQTR prerequisite for the Air Operations Branch Director (AOBD) qualification is to be a qualified Mission Pilot or Mission Observer. And for that you need to be at least 18. That said, while technically possible, it's highly unlikely. An AOBD should be an experienced pilot or observer and have a thorough understanding of air operations. While not impossible, it's not likely you'll be able to gain that type of experience as a cadet, certainly not as an 18 year old cadet.

[Full time cadet]

I get concerned when I read things like "trying to race my friend" towards positions where you are directly responsible for the safety and welfare of others. Very concerned.

It speaks volumes about your commitment and lack of maturity.

"Excellence in all we do"

No need to be too concerned.

FYI That's not even an answer to my question.

Think you missed the point Cadet, becoming a AOBD should not be about winning a race.  ES qualifications are not merit badges to be earned as quickly as you can.  Become an MO, then go on some missions (or exercises if there are no actuals) learn the job, before you try to become the person who directs the people doing the job.

I get your point. I'm just saying that there is no need to be that concerned and questions someones attitude while I'm just saying that it looks like one when someone I closely know is already working on GBD( he is also a 18 year old cadet).

[SarDragon]

ICS-300 is also required for AOBD, and accomplishing that is difficult at best for under 18 folks.

[Full time cadet]

I get concerned when I read things like "trying to race my friend" towards positions where you are directly responsible for the safety and welfare of others. Very concerned.

It speaks volumes about your commitment and lack of maturity.

"Excellence in all we do"

No need to be too concerned.

FYI That's not even an answer to my question.

Think you missed the point Cadet, becoming a AOBD should not be about winning a race.  ES qualifications are not merit badges to be earned as quickly as you can.  Become an MO, then go on some missions (or exercises if there are no actuals) learn the job, before you try to become the person who directs the people doing the job.

There are cadet GBDs existing. Technically speaking, I wonder if there were ever any Cadet AOBDs. I've seen Cadet MPs and MOs though. Anything is possible as long as it is allowed. It's just if people are willing to put in work and step up the plate regardless of cadets and seniors.

[LSThiker]

There are cadet GBDs existing. Technically speaking, I wonder if there were ever any Cadet AOBDs. I've seen Cadet MPs and MOs though. Anything is possible as long as it is allowed. It's just if people are willing to put in work and step up the plate regardless of cadets and seniors.

Yes there are cadet GBDs and I was one as well.  Nevertheless, there is a difference between cadet GBDs and cadet AOBDs. That is, a cadet can get his GTM at the age of 12 and have 6 years of GTM experience before moving into GBD.  When I qualified as a GBD, I already had 5 years GTM experience with 2 years as GTL (with actual missions under my belt).  In addition, I was already leading the vast majority of Wing ES schools and was responsible for organizing my squadron's ES training.  I was proficient in how GTs operated.

Having a high level of proficiency in the air side for a cadet AOBD is difficult at best. Can achieving the AOBD as a cadet be done?  Sure. But you must be honest with yourself in answering this question, "Are you truly 100% proficient in the required understanding and theory of the Air Operations side?"  Can you really achieve the necessary experience in less than 3 years?

The reason why everyone is questioning you on this is from your initial post. You asked a question that is clearly answerable by the regulations and your chain of command. In addition, you made a comment that you in a "race" with another cadet in achieving Branch Director, which throws up red flags for people on both your intentions and maturity. 

[Flying Pig]

As a cadet in CAP you are absolutely not liable, nor would you be held responsible for any direction you give at any level. From a leadership perspective what are your thoughts on being the leader who cant be held responsible for your decisions? 

Having the goal of achieving AOBD as a cadet would be good for your progression and maybe some resume padding for college, or whatever it is that you plan on doing.  However, you have no place in ever actually serving as an Air Ops Branch Director in any formal capacity.  You do not have the experience nor the creditability to serve in that capacity.  I am the same way in regards to Cadet Mission Pilots.  Its allowed, but there are few and very far between, any cadets who really need to be active Mission Pilots.  Flight time is one small part.  The flight time requirements to operate in CAP are ridiculous at best, now add in the maturity level and lack of life experience of a teenager and its a bad combination. Sure people will cut and paste articles about some cadet mission pilot or cadet aircrew on a mission but it should have never been allowed to happen. 

To serve as an AOBD isnt commanding NORAD, but it comes with a level or responsibility that is beyond what a cadet should be held at.  When you are a branch director, the buck needs to stop with you.  As a cadet, you are simply "playing" director.  There would ultimately be a Senior Member responsible.  No cadet is ever going to be dealt any true responsibility or command making decision.  If you haven't noticed yet in your cadet career, nothing happens unless a Senior makes it so.   And a Senior can unravel anything a cadet does at any level.   So at best, you would be nothing more than a mouth piece.   All of the adults will know you really dont have any juice or command authority.  You would be by-passed, and the pilots would seek out the Senior who is actually running AOBD.  I know I would.   In all seriousness, aircrews are going to laugh when they walk in and see a cadet running Air Ops.  Are you really in a position as well to coordinate Air Ops outside organizations?  Law Enforcement Aviation assets?  Fire Aviation?  Possibly National Guard?  As an LE pilot, Ive landed at CAP mission bases to contact the base staff and meet with the AOBD to see what grids were being flown, get Freq's, intro myself, etc.  If that ever happened, and I was directed to contact a cadet, we would saddle up and depart the area and I would report back to my bosses that CAP has kids running a mission.  Make sense?  You dont have to like it but Im not going to take direction on SAR ops from a cadet as a CAP pilot or as a pilot from an outside agency.  Its bad enough that Ive worked under AOBD who couldnt understand why I had an issue with taking a search grid in the Sierras at 1PM at 8,000' in the summer time.

There are a lot of great things cadets can do.  Sure, you may be able to "race your friend" to get a qual, but beyond getting some boxes checked, do you think any aircrew is going to take direction from you?   As a former cadet myself, I say go for it.  Do the quals, do the training required, but do not ever think you will hold the position until much later in your CAP adult career should you choose to stay beyond your cadet years.  I would really be surprised if any IC would select a cadet to serve as a Branch Director in an ICS system on a real operation.    Go for it, learn, shadow a AOBD during any operations, but learn from it and know your place in the food chain.  But dismiss any delusions of grandeur of leading the Air Ops as a cadet.    And last thing..... "Im trying to race my friend" really summed up about all I needed to know about your motivations.

Those are my thoughts and comments you asked for.

(Edited for ridiculous spelling and grammatical errors)

[Storm Chaser]

As a cadet in CAP you are absolutely not liable, nor would you be held responsible for any direction you give at any level.

That is absolutely correct and the reason I would be hesitant to approve a cadet Branch Director in my AOR.

Even a ground team with a cadet GTL cannot be deployed without a senior member. Who's really in charge then? The cadet or the senior member? For mission purposes, the cadet. Until the senior member sees something that doesn't seem right and decides to step in. Sure, the senior member should probably contact the IC or designee if there's an issue, but my point is the senior member, not the cadet GTL, has the ultimate responsibility and liability for the safety of those cadets even though technically he's not in charge of the ground team or sortie.

[winterg]

This thread reminds of the chapter in Heinlein's Starship Troopers when Rico was a cadet at OCS and had to be given the probationary, temporary, and supernumerary rank of Third Lieutenant because a cadet cannot give an order in the field. 

[THRAWN]

This thread reminds of the chapter in Heinlein's Starship Troopers when Rico was a cadet at OCS and had to be given the probationary, temporary, and supernumerary rank of Third Lieutenant because a cadet cannot give an order in the field.

Thats kind of the feeling I.get whenever this topic.comes up.

[Flying Pig]

Again I just want to reiterate I am not opposed to the training nor the idea of shadowing the real AOBD as a cadet.  But its also the responsibility of the cadet program to be realistic and build leaders, not deal in fantasy.   If the cadet completely understands their role, then there is no harm to any area of the issue.  If a cadet is led to believe they are actually commanding, when in reality, there is a silent senior member standing behind them nodding and winking at the pilots while the AOBD is giving directions, then its dishonest to the cadet and we have falsely led a cadet to believe they are something they are not.  We have enough of that in society already. 

If you turn 18, and you want the real responsibility of being an AOBD, then its also time for you to step over to the senior side and accept the full weight of the position and the responsibility that comes with it.  To many times I see cadets who want to live in both worlds.  You dont get to do responsible adult stuff and then when the fun is over, run back to the cadet program.  Im not saying that being an 18 year old SM suddenly makes you qualified, but its step one towards putting on your big kid pants. 

[Flying Pig]

This thread reminds of the chapter in Heinlein's Starship Troopers when Rico was a cadet at OCS and had to be given the probationary, temporary, and supernumerary rank of Third Lieutenant because a cadet cannot give an order in the field.

Thats kind of the feeling I.get whenever this topic.comes up.

I should probably read that... I see it referenced often in a lot of places.

[winterg]

This thread reminds of the chapter in Heinlein's Starship Troopers when Rico was a cadet at OCS and had to be given the probationary, temporary, and supernumerary rank of Third Lieutenant because a cadet cannot give an order in the field.

Thats kind of the feeling I.get whenever this topic.comes up.

I should probably read that... I see it referenced often in a lot of places.

I can't recommend it enough. That and a few other socio-political novels couched in science fiction were required reading when I was younger and made a huge impact.

[Alaric]

This thread reminds of the chapter in Heinlein's Starship Troopers when Rico was a cadet at OCS and had to be given the probationary, temporary, and supernumerary rank of Third Lieutenant because a cadet cannot give an order in the field.

A most excellent book

[Panzerbjorn]

Just don't go see the movie first.  Anyone who's read the book usually despises the movie.

Anyway,  I echo Flying Pig's posts.  I have no issue with any cadet with a certain level of maturity working with me in Air Ops and getting the training.  Just understand that the chances of you actually getting to use that training before becoming a Senior Member is slim to none.  It's hard enough just to get aircrew qualified cadets deployed out on a mission.

Just like the prospect of a cadet going from zero hours to their private pilot certificate using only CAP planes and instructors is possible and allowed, the practicality of it is a much different story.