Firearms & GT (Split from NYPD Aux. thread)

[SAR-EMT1]

It's that 10% that involves his cadets in a mock hostage taking with flash bangs and blank ammo.

Seen AF security police do that with cadets on an encampment before (mid-1980s) with no warning to the cadets that they were about to participate in such an exercise.

That would be a great time to be a cadet. Every cadet in my sq would cut off his right arm to take part in that.

[MIKE]

Had something like that at encampment back WIWAC.

[lordmonar]

There is a difference between "assisting" and "deputizing".   Just because a cop says to come over here and hold this sign does not mean he has deputized the bystander to do anything more than hold the sign.  900-3 explains CAP's role in law enforcement not in the individual.  If a cop said I need you to do such and such.  As far as CAP would be concerned you would be come a private citizen at that moment and no longer a CAP member (for legal purposes).  So YOU can be deputiesed....but you can't do both your deputy duties and your CAP duties at the same time.

We AD people have to deal with this all the time.  I am not a CAP Capt 24/7.  I have to do one or the other.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Pat:

Again, that depends on the state.

In Ohio, if an officer calls you to assist him in  any way, you are, for the duration of that assistance, a law enforcement officer.

On an AFAM, when CAP is a part of the USAF, an officer cannot call a member to assist him without violating the PCA.  In effect, and in law, the call to assist is a "Posse."

On the other hand, if you are not on an AFAM, you are subject to being called to assist a law enforcement officer, and if you refuse, you can be prosecuted.  The regulations and policies of a corporation are not a defense to failing or refusing to assist a law enforcement officer.  In Ohio there was a state supreme court case involving a private corporation that established precisely that precedent.

[SJFedor]

Absoluty....if we are going to talk about taking something on Ground Teams because "something might happen"....let's talk about requiring EMTs on the Ground Team.  Let's get the insurance to cover EMTs and make them an offical part of CAP.

You are about 9000 times more likely to have a heart attack on a GT mission than get shot at by some random bad guy.

But unless that EMT-B has a cath lab in his back pocket, you're still pretty screwed by having said heart attack. Couldn't resist.

Everyone has brought forth the best points of both sides. Good for when you stumble upon the crazy armed person in the woods, bad when the crazy armed person in the woods is a senior member.

If someone REALLY wanted to push it, I don't see why LEO's couldn't carry concealed, just for the fact that they're typically POST certified, know the responsibility in carrying a weapon on a daily basis, are are probably going to be  a little lest ept to doing the whole drop down holster/mac 10 chuck norris type thing.

Unfortunately, the letter of the law probably will not change until something bad happens. Who says CAP and the FAA aren't similar at all?

[lordmonar]

Pat:

Again, that depends on the state.

In Ohio, if an officer calls you to assist him in  any way, you are, for the duration of that assistance, a law enforcement officer.

On an AFAM, when CAP is a part of the USAF, an officer cannot call a member to assist him without violating the PCA.  In effect, and in law, the call to assist is a "Posse."

On the other hand, if you are not on an AFAM, you are subject to being called to assist a law enforcement officer, and if you refuse, you can be prosecuted.  The regulations and policies of a corporation are not a defense to failing or refusing to assist a law enforcement officer.  In Ohio there was a state supreme court case involving a private corporation that established precisely that precedent.

Again...no problem...if in Ohio...and on a corporate mission/normal CAP time, when you get asked to assist you take off your CAP uniform and help.  No harm no foul.  If on a AFAM you do what you think is best.  And the CAP/USAF lawyers will sort it out later.

[DNall]

Absoluty....if we are going to talk about taking something on Ground Teams because "something might happen"....let's talk about requiring EMTs on the Ground Team.  Let's get the insurance to cover EMTs and make them an offical part of CAP.

You are about 9000 times more likely to have a heart attack on a GT mission than get shot at by some random bad guy.

Hopefully the people you allow on GT with you aren't likely to have a heart attack, but yes we do need EMTs on GT, and FEMA is moving us in that direction at a certain level mission/team type. And yes it would also be a very good idea to have one of those people armed to protect the team & survivors from whatever happens, but that won't happen because of liaiblity, regardless of situations that have happened before.

I don't think a UDF team needs either an EMT or armed member. That's a situation where you should be in contact w/ LE. I'm talking more about a level of GT mission where there is no possibility of any kind of help for several hours at minimum - be that way out in the woods or a disaster zone where there is virtually no LE (remember we couldn't do anything in Katrina till way afterwords cause it was"too dangerous").

[JohnKachenmeister]

Pat:

Again, that depends on the state.

In Ohio, if an officer calls you to assist him in  any way, you are, for the duration of that assistance, a law enforcement officer.

On an AFAM, when CAP is a part of the USAF, an officer cannot call a member to assist him without violating the PCA.  In effect, and in law, the call to assist is a "Posse."

On the other hand, if you are not on an AFAM, you are subject to being called to assist a law enforcement officer, and if you refuse, you can be prosecuted.  The regulations and policies of a corporation are not a defense to failing or refusing to assist a law enforcement officer.  In Ohio there was a state supreme court case involving a private corporation that established precisely that precedent.

Again...no problem...if in Ohio...and on a corporate mission/normal CAP time, when you get asked to assist you take off your CAP uniform and help.  No harm no foul.  If on a AFAM you do what you think is best.  And the CAP/USAF lawyers will sort it out later.

If I'm a policeman, and I ask a female CAP member to assist me by searching a female suspect, and the first thing that the female CAP member does is start taking off her clothes, I am going to develop some rather inaccurate conceptions about CAP females, generally.

Not unpleasant ones, but inaccuarate nevertheless.

[floridacyclist]

Hopefully the people you allow on GT with you aren't likely to have a heart attack,

The number one cause of line-of-duty deaths in the Fire Department is heart attacks. What makes anyone think we're any better?

[Johnny Yuma]

NHQ has a terminal case of Swollen Head Syndrome. Their regs never take into account where they may run afoul of local and state laws and seem to think their regs trump civilian law, hiding behind the USAF AUX status. It may work for the corporation, but you as a member of a CIVILIAN auxiliary, doesn't protect you.  Don't expect NHQ to bail your arse out of a jam if you refuse to assist an LEO and you end up in jail. The regs are written to protect NHQ and the corporate officers, not you.

CPPT is a good example: You're expected, by CAP regulation to report abuse to the Wing King or higher and no one else. You're expected to trust CAP, Inc. to "investigate" and make the proper notification to the authorities. Your civic duty as a citizen to report a crime? CAP, Inc. says keep your mouth shut. CPPT is pure CYA for the organization, who will insulate CAP, Inc. first and foremost over your duty as a citizen to report a crime.

No matter the mission, if I'm asked by a cop to assist him I will as part of my civic duty "to my community, state and nation". A state CCW permit allows for the legal carry of a firearm within the boundaries of the law regulating CCW and no CAP regulation trumps that. Concealed Carry means just that and it's really none of CAP, Inc.'s business what I have on under my uniform. If this jepoardizes my CAP membership so be it, I'll take the $4K I spend on CAP activities annually and the hundreds of hours of my time I spend with CAP and be on my way.

[RiverAux]

You're expected to trust CAP, Inc. to "investigate" and make the proper notification to the authorities.

I think they changed that last year. 

[DNall]

Hopefully the people you allow on GT with you aren't likely to have a heart attack,

The number one cause of line-of-duty deaths in the Fire Department is heart attacks. What makes anyone think we're any better?

Not better so much as not carrying that much weight with limited ability to breath fresh air. Not saying we're immune by any means, but it's no more or less likely than needing to defend yourself, not in my experience anyway.

If a CAP member has a CCW then there is no regulation in CAP that trumps a state CCW permit.

Wanna bet? You wouldn't be breaking the law to violate CAP regs, but don't think that'll protect you from being tossed out of the org. I know people that have carried weapons in their vehicles on GT with the idea that if it gets bad enough they need it then it's worth more than staying in CAP. I wouldn't recommend that though.

[Major Lord]

Hopefully the people you allow on GT with you aren't likely to have a heart attack,

The number one cause of line-of-duty deaths in the Fire Department is heart attacks. What makes anyone think we're any better?

Not better so much as not carrying that much weight with limited ability to breath fresh air. Not saying we're immune by any means, but it's no more or less likely than needing to defend yourself, not in my experience anyway.

If a CAP member has a CCW then there is no regulation in CAP that trumps a state CCW permit.

Wanna bet? You wouldn't be breaking the law to violate CAP regs, but don't think that'll protect you from being tossed out of the org. I know people that have carried weapons in their vehicles on GT with the idea that if it gets bad enough they need it then it's worth more than staying in CAP. I wouldn't recommend that though.

Those wacky Air Force SP's are under the impression that my CA CCW is not valid on their base. Where do they get these wild ideas?

Capt. Lord

[JohnKachenmeister]

You're expected to trust CAP, Inc. to "investigate" and make the proper notification to the authorities.

I think they changed that last year. 

They did, with some generalized and vague guidance to comply with local and state laws.

But... If you are in doubt and report suspected abuse to child welfare authorities, and you misinterpret state law and didn't actually have to do so, you well could be toast.

[lordmonar]

NHQ has a terminal case of Swollen Head Syndrome. Their regs never take into account where they may run afoul of local and state laws and seem to think their regs trump civilian law, hiding behind the USAF AUX status. It may work for the corporation, but you as a member of a CIVILIAN auxiliary, doesn't protect you.  Don't expect NHQ to bail your arse out of a jam if you refuse to assist an LEO and you end up in jail. The regs are written to protect NHQ and the corporate officers, not you.

This is a complete misrepresentation of the situation.  No reg ever trumps law.  No one ever said they did.  But as a corporation we must protect ourselves.  What the CAP regs say is that CAP cannot assist LE except in very limited circumstances.  If the local law requires you to assist LE...then you do so as a private citizen not an instrumentality of CAP or the Federal Government.

CPPT is a good example: You're expected, by CAP regulation to report abuse to the Wing King or higher and no one else. You're expected to trust CAP, Inc. to "investigate" and make the proper notification to the authorities. Your civic duty as a citizen to report a crime? CAP, Inc. says keep your mouth shut. CPPT is pure CYA for the organization, who will insulate CAP, Inc. first and foremost over your duty as a citizen to report a crime.

Again...this is because the rules from state to state are so different it would be impossible to make a universal rule to cover all situations.  So in this case you report it to wing....and ask him when he is going to report it.  It he says he is not...then you report it.  You have satisfied both the regulation and the law.  CPP does not say you have to keep your mouth shut.  It says that YOU can't report it until you have informed your wing commander and state director.  In this case you are not a private citizen but a member of the Civil Air Patrol.  Your first and foremost duty is to protect your cadets.  Waiting until the Wing King can make a decision is not going to change the facts in the case.

No matter the mission, if I'm asked by a cop to assist him I will as part of my civic duty "to my community, state and nation".

No one said otherwise....but you do so as a private citizen and to a CAP officer.

A state CCW permit allows for the legal carry of a firearm within the boundaries of the law regulating CCW and no CAP regulation trumps that.

I beg to differ.  You bring your gun to my squadron meeting out you go!  And The 2b would be following you before the door hit you on the butt!  Now don't get me wrong...I am pro-gun and pro-CCW.  But I am also about keeping my cadets and SM safe.  I am also about following the regulations.  900-3 says not gun, except as REQUIRED by law.  Your CCW does not require you to carry anything.  As a precedent I will use the CAP driver's license.  Does not matter what kind of driver license you have...you can't drive a CAP vehicle until your commander gives you that little piece of paper.

Concealed Carry means just that and it's really none of CAP, Inc.'s business what I have on under my uniform. If this jepoardizes my CAP membership so be it, I'll take the $4K I spend on CAP activities annually and the hundreds of hours of my time I spend with CAP and be on my way.

And finally we come to the real crux of your misconception.  On CAP time you belong to CAP.  It is defiantly their business to know if you are introducing a dangerous object into the meetings, missions and activities.  Just as if you walked into a meeting drunk or under the influence of drugs.  Out you go!  If you can't leave your firearm in the car for a couple of hours then maybe you should quit CAP.

--->John K.  Johnny Yuma is exactly the type of guy I am talking about that scares the hell out of me when you talk about allowing CAP members to arm themselves.  Regulations don't count with them.  They will take the inch you give time and run it out the full mile.  And one day...one of them will shoot someone!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Maybe that's why he took the name of "The Rebel."

[DNall]

If you're on an AFAM, you are legally an agent of the AF & restricted by federal law from assisting LE, and that does trump state law. That said, I got no problem when they say "can you do me a favor & maintain a perimeter till we get some more guys out here," and while rolling around with some guy on the ground he asks for help, well you may well get thrown out for it, but that's something for the lawyers to sort out later. You can't decide mid-mission to suddenly be a private citizen again. You are legally the same as anyone in the AF or their civilian employees from the time you sign in till you sign out again (and travel to & from as well, actually from when you are alerted till the mission is closed online).

I do & will continue to stick to regs in general & specifically with regard to firearms. However, I think there should be provision for GTs to carry CCW under state license for appropriate mission circumstances (not UDF where LE is accessible).

Regarding reporting vs. CPP. You are required to report to WgCC & legal, no one else. That's standard self-protecting risk mgmt policy. Via lawsuit they have made provision to allow you to mandatory report to LE, but that doesn't free you from your burden. What should happen when you call the Wg/CC & legal comes on the line, is they should debrief you & help you format your statement to LE so that you provide all the information but don't word it in a way that exposes CAP to excessive unnecessary liability. If they aren't on the ball enough to do that, then you need to inform them of the law as you understand it & prompt them to do that process with you.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dennis:

Some states, although not all, have "Youth Group Leaders" lumped in with day care providers, teachers, and others who are required to report suspected child abuse.

Ohio might be a good example of the dilemma facing CAP members in some states.

Ohio law requires a long list of professionals to report suspected child abuse to a Childrens' Services Board.  Failure to report is a 2nd degree misdemeanor.  The list inludes: "...and other persons acting in loco parentis."

Are CAP officers, say, on a bivouac, acting "In loco parentis?"  Maybe, maybe not.  I could craft an arguement to support either position.

So... CAP Captain Jones comes to suspect CAP Lt. Smith of abusing Cadet Snuffy, and reports it to Wing.  Because he thinks he is required to do so, he also reports it to the CSB of the involved county.  Wing and National decide that his report to CSB was not legally required, and hit him with a 2B.

But... If Capt Jones decides that his report to Wing was enough, and he was not acting In Loco Parentis, and he does not report the incident to CSB, he could find himself in jail if a county official decides he WAS required to report.

And remember... Orders of a superior are not a defense.  Not since Nuremburg.

[Eclipse]

(remember we couldn't do anything in Katrina till way afterwords cause it was"too dangerous").

Yes - this is by design, not accident - we are not first responders, therefore no need for first responder skills.

In all but a VERY small percentage of our activities, we were deployed in areas which were specifically "low risk"  trying, difficult, but not a perceived risk from a violence standpoint.  We served in roles that were exactly what CAP is in business for.

Self-reliant teams performing duties which require skills a cut-above the average CERT player, but far below EMS/PD/FD, etc. We relived them of this lighter duty, so the sworn, trained >paid< professionals
could take care of the more dangerous "messy" things.

[Eclipse]

So... CAP Captain Jones comes to suspect CAP Lt. Smith of abusing Cadet Snuffy, and reports it to Wing.  Because he thinks he is required to do so, he also reports it to the CSB of the involved county.  Wing and National decide that his report to CSB was not legally required, and hit him with a 2B.

But... If Capt Jones decides that his report to Wing was enough, and he was not acting In Loco Parentis, and he does not report the incident to CSB, he could find himself in jail if a county official decides he WAS required to report.

An emergency supplement to 52-10 addressed this directly and the change was incorporated into the Jan 2006 version:

d. Reporting to State Agency. There may be a mandatory requirement to report certain types of physical, sexual or emotional abuse to a designated state agency. Requirements vary from state to state. Members having knowledge of abuse must follow reporting requirements under their state's laws.