DR Doctrine, and lack thereof

[lordmonar]

Sometimes they need warm bodies......so they call everyone.

That is not a good argument. Private Citizens can provide "warm bodies". Other entities can provide "warm bodies". CAP should provide trained and capable volunteers, who can display some level of proficiency and professionalism while working on a DR response.

I agree....CAP SHOULD provide trained and professionals........but the alternitive in the case we are talking about is not to repond at all.
When they call for warm bodies......we should respond (if our bodies are not already tasked).

Again.......you assume that everyone is just going to be out on their own.   The average slick sleeve will not have to worry about when they have to say "no" becasuse he should have an experinced CAP officer there to make that decision.

You're now making assumptions. If the requirement for DR is 'GES' and a 'CAPF 60' then, how do you know you'll have an experienced officer leading this operation? And, what constitute "experienced"? Without a standard, you can only speculate on what units can or will provide.

So you are telling me you as and IC would let a bunch of cadets with out proper supervision out the door to go the sand bag site?  Yes it is an assumption.....it is a reasonable assumption because it is the way we normally do buisness.   By "experinced" I mean somone I know who can handle the situation and the personnel as a leader.

Your problem is that you expect leaders to be someone who can read a reg and just make sure everyone else is doing what is written down.

Leaders are people who get the mission done.

Leaders lead.  In order to be an effective leader in a given operation, you need to be knowledgeable and experienced enough in order to lead others in accomplishing that mission. How can you lead others, yet alone "get the mission done", if you don't know what you're doing or how to do it? Some level of training is required.

Sorry that's simply not true.   Lots of IC's don't know how to fly airplanes.....but they can lead that mission and get it done.

Leaders lead.........and leadership is the art and science of motivating and guiding a group of people to accomplish a task or mission.

Yes...I agree that NHQ needs to address DR operations more...develope SQTRs, sources of training, and provide 60-1 guidance.
In the mean time we need to adapt, overcome and complete the mission.

This is the only sensible thing you've said on this post. However, we need to be 'smart' about how we "complete the mission." Not just show up and hope for the best.

Never have I said that we "just show up and hope for the best".   Never, Never, Never.......I have and contiune to say......We don't say "sorry, but we don't have a "sandbag filler" SQTR so we can't help you".

I say that we use our judgement at leaders, our understanding of the regulations and policies of our organisation and put forth our best effort and get our people into the field to get the job done.

[lordmonar]

"Well, I don't agree with that, so it's crap." I've heard many a field grade officer and twice as many Staff NCO's say the same. There is some sense to what he says, as we cannot foresee everything that will happen.

Saying "we can't forsee everything" is not an excuse to ignore things that are staring at us and require planning and decisions.
The first time a request for support outside the norm comes in, you make on-the-spot decisions and hope for the best, then

as.
a.
leader...

You go back to the organization and establish policy and doctrine to insure that the next time this "thing" is asked for or about,
you have a ready answer, procedure, and can accomplish the mission with the minimum amount of effort and "getting started" thinking.
You don't simply throw up your hands because "you can't have a plan for everything".

LEO's and FDs have very detailed plans and training for everything which falls into the normal mandate of their duties, and
when something different comes up, the improvise on the spot, and then re-write the training and plans to accommodate it.

Okay.....so as a leader who have you contacted about this lack of doctrine?

[Eclipse]

Okay.....so as a leader who have you contacted about this lack of doctrine?

NHQ, who responded with the loophole in 60-3 that allows for GES to pretty much do anything.

Therefore, my wing will fix this and upchannel the fix as a suggestion for program as a whole.

[lordmonar]

Is there ever a chance that during a DR situation a member, even while filling bags with sand along an overflowing river, may be faced with even a single casualty?
Is there at least the same chance that they may be faced with a frantic local citizen who is looking for aid for a loved one who is hurt badly, dying or dead?
Now how greatly do those chances increase when that same member switches from street clothes (local volunteer) into his/her CAP uniform (volunteer from a local/state/federal government agency)? "Dont ask the guy in the who farted T-Shirt, ask the Army Guy for help!"
In my opinion we are setting people up for some serious CISM related issues if we don't at least prepare them for that.
I know I wouldn't want any cadets running out into the field without knowing they've all had that talk at a squadron meeting or specific training AND being briefed on it again on scene... and then given the option. It'd be easier to know that this training/talk had occurred if it was on their 101 card.
Just two tenths of my two cents.

EDIT: I picked on cadets in that last pseudo-paragraph because as a crusty old adult I'm pretty sure MOST of us seniors have had some experience with death in our lives.
I can't be sure any of our cadets have until I KNOW they have. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of them have not only because it is a safer bet.

Interesting point.....and I understand what you are getting at.......but in what way is that different then any other mission we go on?
We make those decisions every day.....be it a Cadet Meeting to real world SAR.   As they used to say in the first slide of the GES training.....SAR is an emergency.   We are exposed to all sorts of hazards just showing up to the mission base.

[Storm Chaser]

I agree....CAP SHOULD provide trained and professionals........but the alternitive in the case we are talking about is not to repond at all.
When they call for warm bodies......we should respond (if our bodies are not already tasked).

Sometimes not responding is the best response. If my unit is tasked with a GSAR mission and I don't have a qualified GTL, I don't send a ground team. If they request air support for SAR and my only available pilot is not a qualified MP, I don't send an aircrew. It's that simple.

So you are telling me you as and IC would let a bunch of cadets with out proper supervision out the door to go the sand bag site?  Yes it is an assumption.....it is a reasonable assumption because it is the way we normally do buisness.   By "experinced" I mean somone I know who can handle the situation and the personnel as a leader.

I would not. I also wouldn't send personnel, even if they had GES, unless I thought they were capable of accomplishing the mission safely and successfully. Training facilitates that.

Sorry that's simply not true.   Lots of IC's don't know how to fly airplanes.....but they can lead that mission and get it done.

Leaders lead.........and leadership is the art and science of motivating and guiding a group of people to accomplish a task or mission.

That is not a good example. If an IC has no experience in air operations required for a mission, he/she will appoint an OSC or AOBD that is. Again, trained individuals.

Besides you said on your previous post that leaders "get the mission done." I'm glad you're expanding on your previous limited definition of leadership.

Never have I said that we "just show up and hope for the best".   Never, Never, Never.......I have and contiune to say......We don't say "sorry, but we don't have a "sandbag filler" SQTR so we can't help you".

Nobody suggested that sandbagging should require an SQTR. What we've suggested is that DR personnel should have training beyond GES.

I say that we use our judgement at leaders, our understanding of the regulations and policies of our organisation and put forth our best effort and get our people into the field to get the job done.

And because we ARE using our judgment and experience, we are making the recommendation that CAP should have dedicated DR training and a corresponding qualification. Furthermore, we are pointing out the GES in and of itself is not enough training to respond to certain disasters or perform certain tasks.

[Storm Chaser]

Interesting point.....and I understand what you are getting at.......but in what way is that different then any other mission we go on?

The difference is training. I know the level of training that my cadets with GTM3/2/1 have. In many cases, a cadet with GES and no other ES training has only a vague idea of the ES mission within CAP.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm going to go direct to page 5 one this one because I suspect pages 2-4 are just repeats of page 1.

Around here, sandbagging operations are cattle-call affairs where members of the community come together to help each other save property and lives. These individuals are untrained and inexperienced. Why? Because sandbagging, handing out water, and making sandwiches are things which are dead-simple and require no prior experience. Because they're SIMPLE.

So, if a member of the public can knock off work an hour early and go help sandbag an old lady's house, why should we require our members to jump through 15 hoops just for the sake of being "highly qualified", a phrase which has no meaning when it comes to (and I repeat myself here), sandbagging, making sandwiches, and passing out water.

Now, if we're talking about going door-to-door in a relatively dangerous disaster area, doing disaster assessment, or things that require extended durations from base or are otherwise in highly austere conditions, that's a different conversation.

[Eclipse]

Then CAP need not be involved beyond beyond providing contact information, which is a reasonable response.

Warm body work doesn't require a structured entity to execute, so encourage members to help on their own recon, give them a CSR, and move on.

[johnnyb47]

Is there ever a chance that during a DR situation a member, even while filling bags with sand along an overflowing river, may be faced with even a single casualty?
Is there at least the same chance that they may be faced with a frantic local citizen who is looking for aid for a loved one who is hurt badly, dying or dead?
Now how greatly do those chances increase when that same member switches from street clothes (local volunteer) into his/her CAP uniform (volunteer from a local/state/federal government agency)? "Dont ask the guy in the who farted T-Shirt, ask the Army Guy for help!"
In my opinion we are setting people up for some serious CISM related issues if we don't at least prepare them for that.
I know I wouldn't want any cadets running out into the field without knowing they've all had that talk at a squadron meeting or specific training AND being briefed on it again on scene... and then given the option. It'd be easier to know that this training/talk had occurred if it was on their 101 card.
Just two tenths of my two cents.

EDIT: I picked on cadets in that last pseudo-paragraph because as a crusty old adult I'm pretty sure MOST of us seniors have had some experience with death in our lives.
I can't be sure any of our cadets have until I KNOW they have. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of them have not only because it is a safer bet.

Interesting point.....and I understand what you are getting at.......but in what way is that different then any other mission we go on?
We make those decisions every day.....be it a Cadet Meeting to real world SAR.   As they used to say in the first slide of the GES training.....SAR is an emergency.   We are exposed to all sorts of hazards just showing up to the mission base.

A GTM3 should know to never put his fingers into the mouth of someone having a seizure because they have had first aid training. A GTM3 know which natural hazards to avoid. A GTM3 knows what to expect to some degree when walking up to a crash site and has training about what should be done in the event of a find, etc. While I don't think it fully prepares them for the worst case scenario it is something.

[johnnyb47]

I'm going to go direct to page 5 one this one because I suspect pages 2-4 are just repeats of page 1.

Around here, sandbagging operations are cattle-call affairs where members of the community come together to help each other save property and lives. These individuals are untrained and inexperienced. Why? Because sandbagging, handing out water, and making sandwiches are things which are dead-simple and require no prior experience. Because they're SIMPLE.

So, if a member of the public can knock off work an hour early and go help sandbag an old lady's house, why should we require our members to jump through 15 hoops just for the sake of being "highly qualified", a phrase which has no meaning when it comes to (and I repeat myself here), sandbagging, making sandwiches, and passing out water.

Now, if we're talking about going door-to-door in a relatively dangerous disaster area, doing disaster assessment, or things that require extended durations from base or are otherwise in highly austere conditions, that's a different conversation.

should landscape in one area dictate the training requirements of a national organization? Shouldn't a DR trained CAP member be able to be dropped anywhere in the country and expected to function nearly as well in any environment?
Shouldn't someone spend some properly training our members what to say if approached by the media while sandbagging in a CAP uniform?

I don't think it has to be 15 hoops but a small amount of nationally standardized DR training that takes a few check offs to complete shouldn't be too much to ask.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm going to go direct to page 5 one this one because I suspect pages 2-4 are just repeats of page 1.

Around here, sandbagging operations are cattle-call affairs where members of the community come together to help each other save property and lives. These individuals are untrained and inexperienced. Why? Because sandbagging, handing out water, and making sandwiches are things which are dead-simple and require no prior experience. Because they're SIMPLE.

So, if a member of the public can knock off work an hour early and go help sandbag an old lady's house, why should we require our members to jump through 15 hoops just for the sake of being "highly qualified", a phrase which has no meaning when it comes to (and I repeat myself here), sandbagging, making sandwiches, and passing out water.

Now, if we're talking about going door-to-door in a relatively dangerous disaster area, doing disaster assessment, or things that require extended durations from base or are otherwise in highly austere conditions, that's a different conversation.

should landscape in one area dictate the training requirements of a national organization? Shouldn't a DR trained CAP member be able to be dropped anywhere in the country and expected to function nearly as well in any environment?
Shouldn't someone spend some properly training our members what to say if approached by the media while sandbagging in a CAP uniform?

I don't think it has to be 15 hoops but a small amount of nationally standardized DR training that takes a few check offs to complete shouldn't be too much to ask.

Sandbagging, making sandwiches, and handing out water doesn't change because you're in Louisiana vs. Illinois. See my final point, which stated that advanced tasking in austere/remote environments should be conducted by trained personnel (GTM most likely). That seems to be the type of tasking you're getting at here, since I'm not going halfway across the country to sandbag.

[Spaceman3750]

Then CAP need not be involved beyond beyond providing contact information, which is a reasonable response.

Warm body work doesn't require a structured entity to execute, so encourage members to help on their own recon, give them a CSR, and move on.

That's the answer to "should we even be doing this?", which is definitely a conversation worth having. "Should we require GT3 to put sand into burlap sacks?" isn't a conversation worth having, since it's so simple a middle school student can do it.

[lordmonar]

A GTM3 should know to never put his fingers into the mouth of someone having a seizure because they have had first aid training. A GTM3 know which natural hazards to avoid. A GTM3 knows what to expect to some degree when walking up to a crash site and has training about what should be done in the event of a find, etc. While I don't think it fully prepares them for the worst case scenario it is something.

And these are the hazards that he is likely to encounter while sandbagging?

[Storm Chaser]

And these are the hazards that he is likely to encounter while sandbagging?

You keep bringing up the sandbagging example, but that's not the problem. The fact remains that our current National CAP policy does not address DR responses or training adequately.

Let's use your example in a different setting. Sandbagging is needed in a flooded area. There are power lines down. There is damaged property and injured people all around... You get the picture. Since there's no requirement from National to use GTM personnel, anyone with a GES should be able to respond adequately in this hazardous environment, right? I think we can see that in this particular scenario (which goes beyond just sandbagging and handing out sandwiches and water), GES may not be enough training.

Now let's say the IC uses his/her judgment and decides to use personnel with GTM3 instead, which is technically not required. GTM3 personnel, while most likely better prepared than those with just GES, will not necessarily have all the skills or knowledge related to DR responses, since DR is not part of their training curriculum. Specialized DR training and a corresponding qualification could prove quite useful for those responses that go beyond just putting sand in a bag or handing out water.

We may not see eye to eye on how to approach this, but at least we can agree that we want to have personnel able to respond to a disaster, provide a valuable service and do it safely. At the end, our membership is our most valuable asset and we want to make sure we provide them with the tools they need to accomplish the mission successfully, without becoming themselves victims or liabilities. Cheers!

[Spaceman3750]

Um... Sandbagging means the river is coming up, not normally that power lines are down and injured people are everywhere. Throwing in unrealistic conditions doesn't make your point more valid.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Why would the river be coming up? Does it come up on its own?

No, it usually comes up because there was some rain caused by a storm!

I do not know about your region, but I always see high winds with storms.

With high winds, you almost always have downed power lines...

If you say that flooding is not associated with downed power lines, I do not want you as a Ground Team Leader...

Flyer

[jeders]

And these are the hazards that he is likely to encounter while sandbagging?

You keep bringing up the sandbagging example, but that's not the problem. The fact remains that our current National CAP policy does not address DR responses or training adequately.

Let's use your example in a different setting. Sandbagging is needed in a flooded area. There are power lines down. There is damaged property and injured people all around...

...

Specialized DR training and a corresponding qualification could prove quite useful for those responses that go beyond just putting sand in a bag or handing out water.

Actually, what would be most useful is a Safety Officer, because that's where the go/no go decision is going to come from if we have power lines on the ground. The best thing is, we already have that.

Now here's my response, have you ever been on an actual ground DR mission? I've been on several, ranging from flooding to tornadoes (meaning downed power lines and injured people). Do you want to know what the GTM trained CAP personnel like myself were doing when the call for warm bodies went out during the initial phase, directing ARC volunteers in making sandwiches, directing people to the shelter, and similar non-hazardous items. And what were we doing during the aftermath might you ask, damage assessment for Red Cross assistance, managing a shelter, driving around passing out water, and recruiting. None of that was covered by GTM training, and none of it was hazardous. We didn't do the hazardous stuff because there was a CAP IC who used his head and said we don't need to be plucking people out of a fast moving river, but we can still assist even if we don't have a DR qual.

[jeders]

Why would the river be coming up? Does it come up on its own?

No, it usually comes up because there was some rain caused by a storm!

I do not know about your region, but I always see high winds with storms.

With high winds, you almost always have downed power lines...

If you say that flooding is not associated with downed power lines, I do not want you as a Ground Team Leader...

Flyer

I don't know about your area, but around here rivers flow (when they have water in them). So a storm 50 miles away can cause flooding locally, regardless of whether or not the storm reached our area.

[Spaceman3750]

Why would the river be coming up? Does it come up on its own?

No, it usually comes up because there was some rain caused by a storm!

I do not know about your region, but I always see high winds with storms.

With high winds, you almost always have downed power lines...

If you say that flooding is not associated with downed power lines, I do not want you as a Ground Team Leader...

Flyer

Around here, the river comes up because snow up north (Minnesota, Dakotas, Wisconsin, Canada) tends to melt in the spring and dump into the rivers, which eventually feeds into large rivers such as the Mississippi. We have a lot of flooding right now from the Illinois River (I just took pics over lunch, want to see?), and I can tell you that there are no downed power lines and injured people lying around.

When flooding happens because of a storm that knocks down power lines, it is because of low-lying and uneven ground which there is no point in sandbagging because the water is coming from the sky...

Then again, maybe I'm just a moron. I've only seen this story repeated every spring for the last couple of decades I've been alive.

[johnnyb47]

A GTM3 should know to never put his fingers into the mouth of someone having a seizure because they have had first aid training. A GTM3 know which natural hazards to avoid. A GTM3 knows what to expect to some degree when walking up to a crash site and has training about what should be done in the event of a find, etc. While I don't think it fully prepares them for the worst case scenario it is something.

And these are the hazards that he is likely to encounter while sandbagging?

Basic first aid due to overexertion/pre-existing conditions, knowing which snakes, stinging insects and other wildlife live in your area and how to avoid them and knowing what to do in the event that someone who drowned up-stream is floating past in the body of water along which you are sandbagging? Yeah I would say those are some of the things we should be prepping for in sandbagging operations.