Hurricane Sandy

[Eclipse]

Fine - then require MSA.

You can't have people in uniform, with no training, qualifications or supervision wandering around "helping".

It seems like a good idea until someone gets hurt, or hurts someone else, then the disavow parade starts.

[wuzafuzz]

CERT training through HLS is gone in the next few months.

"What you talkin' about Willis?"

CERT gone?

[tsrup]

d. Only qualified CAP members, qualified members of other agencies with which CAP
has an approved memorandum of understanding, and CAP mission trainees under the
supervision of a qualified person may participate in CAP operational missions.  There will be at
a minimum a 1-to-3 ratio of supervisors to trainees when trainees are utilized.

Seems pretty cut and dry.
You are either qualified or you are not.  If you are not, then stay home, and remember this for next time.

[PHall]

d. Only qualified CAP members, qualified members of other agencies with which CAP
has an approved memorandum of understanding, and CAP mission trainees under the
supervision of a qualified person may participate in CAP operational missions.  There will be at
a minimum a 1-to-3 ratio of supervisors to trainees when trainees are utilized.

Seems pretty cut and dry.
You are either qualified or you are not.  If you are not, then stay home, and remember this for next time.

Easy for you to say when you're not in the middle of the disaster area.
The local commander seems to have exercised some "Commander's descrition" on this one.
And since no one, in authority, in NYWG has called them on it. I guess they'll live with it.

[tsrup]

d. Only qualified CAP members, qualified members of other agencies with which CAP
has an approved memorandum of understanding, and CAP mission trainees under the
supervision of a qualified person may participate in CAP operational missions.  There will be at
a minimum a 1-to-3 ratio of supervisors to trainees when trainees are utilized.

Seems pretty cut and dry.
You are either qualified or you are not.  If you are not, then stay home, and remember this for next time.

Easy for you to say when you're not in the middle of the disaster area.
The local commander seems to have exercised some "Commander's descrition" on this one.
And since no one, in authority, in NYWG has called them on it. I guess they'll live with it.

I have been to quite a few disaster areas.  And I wouldn't put unqualified personnel in the middle of them.  Period.

[wuzafuzz]

Properly trained CAP members can be a big asset in these cases, but untrained personnel should not be involved on any level.

:clap: :clap:

I agree wholeheartedly.  CAP goes on and on about safety, sometimes more than is necessary.  We claim to be a professional resource but when something big happens we sometimes fall all over ourselves in our haste to "do something," throwing caution out the window in the process.  At a minimum we should know all deployable CAP members are trained to ensure they won't needlessly add to the victim count.

[CAPDan]

Want to help support CAP in Sandy's relief effort? There is a crowd sourcing effort to identify damage done from Sandy. If you have a few spare minutes follow this link to rate pictures taken of areas affected by Sandy.

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?cap_members_ask_to_help_rate_aerial_damage_photos_in_online_crowdsourcing_project&show=news&newsID=15281

[Luis R. Ramos]

When If I become a Wing Commander, and wear Lt Colonel oak leaf, I will follow the regulations as written.

If I become a Wing CC or Group CC, I will not ask for anybody, I will ask for those qualified in ES.

Although at the moment, even though I have 10 years in CAP, I wear the single white/silver bar of a lieutenant.

I will not question anyone wearing a gold oak leaf in command of a Group, when in the middle of an emergency writes a captain of his Group who is the ES Officer to "call out anyone whether they are qualified in ES or not." I am pretty sure that person consulted with his boss, who wears a white/silver oak leaf.

He had reason to do so, and that is his prerogative.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

For starters, Wing CC's wear eagles, not oak leaves.

I will not question anyone wearing a gold oak leaf in command of a Group, when in the middle of an emergency writes a captain of his Group who is the ES Officer to "call out anyone whether they are qualified in ES or not." I am pretty sure that person consulted with his boss, who wears a white/silver oak leaf.

Who he may, or may not have "consulted with", does not change the very specific regs on this matter, nor will it matter
in a court room if the member is injured and requests benefits, or injures someone else and wants to be defended
by CAP's counsel.  People with common sense do not rely on a "court's goodwill", when they knowingly break clear regulations
and do "what they have to".

Riveraux hit the nail square - we spend enormous amounts of time, money, and member initiative and good will on procedures, safety requirements,
training, and monitoring qualifications, and then in some parts of the world, that all goes out the window the minute things get sporty because
practical reality conflicts with the lack of ES programs in those same wings.

We can't have it both ways and maintain any air of legitimacy or credibility.

If CAP is to be an "all hands on deck", so be it.  Many other orgs function that way.

But in the current paradigm of CAP, you're either qualified, or you're not.  And if you're not, you stay home.  Period.
Otherwise, how is anyone trying to stress training and proficiency supposed to stand in the front of the room with a straight
face and get people to "waste" their weekends, when they know it won't matter in the end?

[jimmydeanno]

CERT training through HLS is gone in the next few months.

"What you talkin' about Willis?"

CERT gone?

The DHS director 'round hea was telling me the other day that the 20 hour course for CERT is going away at the start of next year.  Their funding to run the course, materials, etc., have been eliminated and they will no longer be offering it. 

[tsrup]

When If I become a Wing Commander, and wear Lt Colonel oak leaf, I will follow the regulations as written.

If I become a Wing CC or Group CC, I will not ask for anybody, I will ask for those qualified in ES.

Although at the moment, even though I have 10 years in CAP, I wear the single white/silver bar of a lieutenant.

I will not question anyone wearing a gold oak leaf in command of a Group, when in the middle of an emergency writes a captain of his Group who is the ES Officer to "call out anyone whether they are qualified in ES or not." I am pretty sure that person consulted with his boss, who wears a white/silver oak leaf.

He had reason to do so, and that is his prerogative.

Flyer

I'm going to throw the flag on this one.  As a CC it is my job to make sure that even when these requests come from above, that my unit still complies with regulation.

It would be my prerogative to ensure that these issues were brought up the chain of command and clarification was made.

Supplement or waiver to CAPR 60-3 cannot be done at the unit level or even the group level.  It must be done at the wing level and approved by CAP-USAF, The Region, and NHQ. 


If the order came down, my response would be "Sir/Ma'am, you understand that this order is in violation of CAPR 60-3 as written, and that it would place my personnel at risk?"

Who knows, maybe this was an oversight that the wing wasn't aware of at the time and now they are,or steps were taken to either get the appropriate waiver or supplement that I wasn't aware of and then I'm told to shut up and color.

As a Unit CC I am duty bound to disregard unlawful orders.  If the Wing CC want's to nail me for not calling up unqualified members, I'd have the backing of the regulation in an IG investigation.

[RickRutledge]

When If I become a Wing Commander, and wear Lt Colonel oak leaf, I will follow the regulations as written.

If I become a Wing CC or Group CC, I will not ask for anybody, I will ask for those qualified in ES.

Although at the moment, even though I have 10 years in CAP, I wear the single white/silver bar of a lieutenant.

I will not question anyone wearing a gold oak leaf in command of a Group, when in the middle of an emergency writes a captain of his Group who is the ES Officer to "call out anyone whether they are qualified in ES or not." I am pretty sure that person consulted with his boss, who wears a white/silver oak leaf.

He had reason to do so, and that is his prerogative.

Flyer

I'm going to throw the flag on this one.  As a CC it is my job to make sure that even when these requests come from above, that my unit still complies with regulation.

It would be my prerogative to ensure that these issues were brought up the chain of command and clarification was made.

Supplement or waiver to CAPR 60-3 cannot be done at the unit level or even the group level.  It must be done at the wing level and approved by CAP-USAF, The Region, and NHQ. 


If the order came down, my response would be "Sir/Ma'am, you understand that this order is in violation of CAPR 60-3 as written, and that it would place my personnel at risk?"

Who knows, maybe this was an oversight that the wing wasn't aware of at the time and now they are,or steps were taken to either get the appropriate waiver or supplement that I wasn't aware of and then I'm told to shut up and color.

As a Unit CC I am duty bound to disregard unlawful orders.  If the Wing CC want's to nail me for not calling up unqualified members, I'd have the backing of the regulation in an IG investigation.

+1 -- Well said. My thoughts, exactly.

[isuhawkeye]

Has anyone considered that A lot of DR work is very similar to routine volunteer service.  If someone serves food at a homeless shelter or unloads a truck at the Salvation Army is that any different in times of disaster? After all CAP offer a ribbon for hours of community service. 

Just a thought

[LTC Don]

Not necessarily to stir the pot, but a critical reading of CAPR 60-3 regarding DROPS is very important to grasp the scope of what is needed for CAP to do, and to also realize that our current (and stale old paradigm) SOP of deploying ground teams into a DR environment is quite irresponsible and needs to change.

From CAPR 60-3:
Page 24
e. Only personnel holding a valid CAPF 101 (or authorized on equivalent computer rosters noted below) containing the applicable specialty rating(s) may be assigned to perform duties on CAP operational missions.


This is an inherently important statement that can't be overemphasized.  It basically means that when conditions warrant, do you what you have to do to get the job done. --
Page 27
g. There are some duty positions that CAP does not have specific specialty qualifications identified. Any CAP IC can appoint any GES qualified member to fill these gaps in order to meet the needs of the mission, but must use good judgment to select personnel who have the appropriate training and backgrounds to be able to successfully complete their assignment.


Bottom line is, Disaster Relief, according to Federal Law is our job and yet as someone mentioned, CAP has yet to develop a doctrine for meeting the requirements dictated.  This glaring discrepancy has been mentioned several times on CAPTalk over the years. 

And, I hate to say it, but the few air missions we fly providing digital images into whatever black hole they go to, when we have literally thousands of members on the ground that can be organized, trained and making a huge difference on the ground during a disaster doesn't cut it. I'm not opposed to the air mission, but when being flown, the infrastructure should be in place to get those images directly in to that state and/or local EOC for immediate feedback/effect by the state/local decisionmakers. In the current situation in NY and NJ, it my distinct feeling that there should be a tremendous showing of CAP personnel on the ground doing what needs to be done (provided they have the proper credentials).  This is a disaster and response of historic proportions that will deserve studying for years to come in terms of what we did, didn't do, and could have done better.


Each wing really needs an aggressive DR staff, at least three or four deep to address training and partnering challenges from the local units and local emergency management to the state level.  Partnering with emergency management at local and state level takes a genuine level of commitment and must be long term.  It's not easy and can be a political minefield if CAP drops the ball when the time comes to deploy.


Another gem from 60-3.....that is not a mere suggestion but a requirement:
(4) Coordinate with local agencies for training, equipment, joint exercises, plans, etc. Ensure all commitments can be met. Do not over-obligate your unit.

If a local unit's ES shop doesn't have anyone who can take time to meet with and partner with their local EM shop....that's a problem.

In a state-wide disaster like NY and NJ are experiencing, the primary CAP IC would be based at the State EOC with a couple of people to address/coordinate various taskings as they come in.  At the parish/county level, an agency liaison rep would be at that local EOC in the event CAP personnel are conducting operations in that political jurisdiction.  If that 'network' of CAPIC and Agency Liaison isn't in place, it sets the stage for C2 or C3 issues and can cause definite confusion.  This is something that must be exercised prior to an event happening to address issues as they arise.

  Sorry for rambling, this is a pretty big soapbox of mine... 

[LTC Don]

Has anyone considered that A lot of DR work is very similar to routine volunteer service.  If someone serves food at a homeless shelter or unloads a truck at the Salvation Army is that any different in times of disaster? After all CAP offer a ribbon for hours of community service. 

Just a thought

I would tend to disagree with you as an actual DR environment is extremely hazardous if for no other reason the stress of both the responders, and the victims and what that entails.

We train all of our folks in this program:
http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/is26.asp to be able to participate in distribution operations and it's nothing like a homeless shelter situation.  Local emergency managment agencies are well familiar with the POD program and usually welcome groups willing to organize and provide those services. CAP in North Carolina is a primary provider of POD operations. The manual is an excellent resource to keep on file.

[SARDOC]

Has anyone considered that A lot of DR work is very similar to routine volunteer service.  If someone serves food at a homeless shelter or unloads a truck at the Salvation Army is that any different in times of disaster? After all CAP offer a ribbon for hours of community service. 

Just a thought

The Community Service ribbon is recognition for service that is completely unrelated to the Civil Air Patrol.

If they are called up for service to do disaster recovery work under the auspices of the Civil Air Patrol that means they are covered under the insurance of the Civil Air Patrol and/or the United States Air Force and must comply with all the regulations involved.

So yes it is different.  If they want to volunteer for the salvation army they are free to do so and sign up through the Salvation Army process to get covered by their liability insurance in the event of an injury or accident.  That would be outside the auspices of the Civil Air Patrol.

[tsrup]

Not necessarily to stir the pot, but a critical reading of CAPR 60-3 regarding DROPS is very important to grasp the scope of what is needed for CAP to do, and to also realize that our current (and stale old paradigm) SOP of deploying ground teams into a DR environment is quite irresponsible and needs to change.

From CAPR 60-3:
Page 24
e. Only personnel holding a valid CAPF 101 (or authorized on equivalent computer rosters noted below) containing the applicable specialty rating(s) may be assigned to perform duties on CAP operational missions.


This is an inherently important statement that can't be overemphasized.  It basically means that when conditions warrant, do you what you have to do to get the job done. --
Page 27
g. There are some duty positions that CAP does not have specific specialty qualifications identified. Any CAP IC can appoint any GES qualified member to fill these gaps in order to meet the needs of the mission, but must use good judgment to select personnel who have the appropriate training and backgrounds to be able to successfully complete their assignment.


Bottom line is, Disaster Relief, according to Federal Law is our job and yet as someone mentioned, CAP has yet to develop a doctrine for meeting the requirements dictated.  This glaring discrepancy has been mentioned several times on CAPTalk over the years. 

emphasis mine

-Still would bar cadets without at least curry and senior members without at least level 1. 

[Eclipse]

This is an inherently important statement that can't be overemphasized.  It basically means that when conditions warrant, do you what you have to do to get the job done. --
Page 27
g. There are some duty positions that CAP does not have specific specialty qualifications identified. Any CAP IC can appoint any GES qualified member to fill these gaps in order to meet the needs of the mission, but must use good judgment to select personnel who have the appropriate training and backgrounds to be able to successfully complete their assignment.

Fair enough - what are the key words there.

IC - which means there's a mission number at a minimum.  A unit CC, on his own, cannot approve a CAP mission - safety valve.

GES Qualified - while I personally disagree with the term "GES Qualified" (GES is a pre-requisite, not a qualification), that at least
requires Curry cadets, and L1 seniors, who have at least glanced at the most basic tenants of our ES rules, including the
ICS chain of command.

60-3 does not allow for the average Unit CC to just run out the door with 3 slick sleeves to start "doing what needs to be done".
Like the whole world of ES, there's rules and a process - in this case, that hurricane was coming up the coast for a week+, more then
enough time to get units fully spun up and at least minimally qualified, assuming they could be bothered.

Wing CC's have the full power to spin up C-Missions on their whim, and can spin up 911T missions when warranted, so there's no
such thing as "not enough time".

So back to the original point - you're either qualified, even if that means minimally, or you stay home.

[ZigZag911]

GES ought to be a routine element in getting new members -- cadet & senior -- started in CAP.

Even those who come in professing no interest in taking part in ES activities should be urged to complete this very fundamental training, for the simple reason that when disaster strikes, nearly everyone wants to contribute.

If they have GES, we can utilize their services as deemed appropriate by their commanders (who need in some cases whether to permit an individual to respond at all) and the mission IC and staff (concerning what responders will actually do).

There are always jobs that need doing at shelters, ICPs, staging areas and similar venues...some are very simple clerical tasks, others logistical...we can't sit here and decide who can do what on the ground.

What we do know is that for the member and the organization to be protected from liability, those members all need the basic preparation to participate.

If it were up to me, GES would be required for the Mitchell (encouraged sooner, for capable cadets)and for completion of Level 1.

[Eclipse]

If it were up to me, GES would be required for the Mitchell (encouraged sooner, for capable cadets)and for completion of Level 1.

I'd say it should be required for Curry and Level 1.  It's not like its complicated.

At least that way 1/3rd of our mission wouldn't be treated as optional.