Boy Scout SAR merit badge

[Garibaldi]

Just curious...  How many cadets are not interested in ES?  Personally, I haven't met a single one...  There are of course tons that don't have any quals, due to lack of opportunities, school, personal situations, etc., but I've never asked a cadet "are you interested in ES" and had them answer "no." 

I personally believe that ES should not be optional for cadets.  CAP was founded for the primary purpose of ES (coastal patrol era) and ES remains a primary purpose to this day.

I often wonder if we wouldn't be better off splitting the cadet program into a different, independent organization from our ES operators?

There are a bunch of cadets in my unit whose interest is NOT going out in the woods. I actually have a cadet who is GTM 1-3 qualified who refuses to do any ES stuff. I don't know why. Guess I need to talk to her at some point. Someone with those quals I need on cadre at my GT academy.

[lordmonar]

You know it is strange.....when I was a boy scout......I earned the weather merit badge.....never once did I think I was qualfied to do the 5 o'clock weather report.
When I earned my first aid merit badge.....never once did I think I was qualified to anything more then splint a break, bandge a wound, and treat for shock.

First off......the BSA is doing this in conjunction with NESAR.....you know the national professional certifing agency......and if anyone would be worried about scouts going RAMBO.....it would be them.

NESAR is looking at this as a way to get BASIC level knowledge into a pool of people so when they have a Low Risk...High Demand search they can call on the BSA to help out.

In stead of moaning about how we are going to have to go looking for boy scouts.....look at it as an opportunity to increase our ties with the BSA.  Aviation Merit Badge, and now SAR Merit Badge.........if the BSA troops in your town are not asking for CAP to help them with that.....then you are missing the boat.

[Eclipse]

i think its dangerous that they are teaching the boy scouts this skill without proper instructors because if their friend gets lost and they think that merit badge qualified them to look for him they are in trouble because they A: don't have good training just a basic "101" so to speak B: they don't have survival (24 hour) packs so if they get lost they have no supplies C: they don't have radios or any radio training so they have no reliable communications so if they find him and no one has a cell phone they don't know how to make a stretcher so he has to wait for someone to get back to camp for help D:what do they do if they find him? 1: none of them have the kind of first aid training we do so if they're buddies wounded hes in trouble 2: none of them get the counselling we do so they will have an emotional scar for the rest of their life and all of this is coming from a boy scout so i know when my troop gets the merit badge im going to teach it to them currently i am GTM3 and NC wing is haveing a ground team school and i want to get GTM2

Wow.

[ol'fido]

i think its dangerous that they are teaching the boy scouts this skill without proper instructors because if their friend gets lost and they think that merit badge qualified them to look for him they are in trouble because they A: don't have good training just a basic "101" so to speak B: they don't have survival (24 hour) packs so if they get lost they have no supplies C: they don't have radios or any radio training so they have no reliable communications so if they find him and no one has a cell phone they don't know how to make a stretcher so he has to wait for someone to get back to camp for help D:what do they do if they find him? 1: none of them have the kind of first aid training we do so if they're buddies wounded hes in trouble 2: none of them get the counselling we do so they will have an emotional scar for the rest of their life and all of this is coming from a boy scout so i know when my troop gets the merit badge im going to teach it to them currently i am GTM3 and NC wing is haveing a ground team school and i want to get GTM2

Wow.

Yeah, I don't even know where to begin on that one.

[SarDragon]

He's been sent a PM.

[caphornbuckle]

i think its dangerous that they are teaching the boy scouts this skill without proper instructors because if their friend gets lost and they think that merit badge qualified them to look for him they are in trouble because they A: don't have good training just a basic "101" so to speak B: they don't have survival (24 hour) packs so if they get lost they have no supplies C: they don't have radios or any radio training so they have no reliable communications so if they find him and no one has a cell phone they don't know how to make a stretcher so he has to wait for someone to get back to camp for help D:what do they do if they find him? 1: none of them have the kind of first aid training we do so if they're buddies wounded hes in trouble 2: none of them get the counselling we do so they will have an emotional scar for the rest of their life and all of this is coming from a boy scout so i know when my troop gets the merit badge im going to teach it to them currently i am GTM3 and NC wing is haveing a ground team school and i want to get GTM2

Wow.

Yeah, I don't even know where to begin on that one.

I do have to jump in with this little note and I'll leave it after that...

Merit Badges were created to give a scout an orientation of many career fields.  It is an introduction for boys who have not decided what they want to be when they grow up.  It is not a certification program nor does it go in depth on any one particular subject. CAP does not send cadets into combat after completing PJOC and scouts do not go on SAR missions after completing a merit badge.

Edited due to misplacement of statement

[nesagsar]

As an eagle scout, a merit badge counselor, an arrowman, a former cadet, a two time graduate of NESA, and a professional federal emergency manager I have to say that I am disappointed in how this conversation has progressed.

Scouting taught me more practical skills and a heck of a lot more about character than CAP did. CAP taught me discipline and bearing. Combining the two is what made me who I am and I have gone pretty far in this profession for being only 24.

If you  are a senior member and have doubts about the ability of scouters to teach SAR then take the leap and apply to be a counselor. You may be surprised to note that you will have to provide proof that you are competent to teach the badge just like everyone else. If you are a scouter and have doubts about your scouts being mature enough to conduct a search then teach them what they need to know. Scouting would be in pretty poor shape if all of our scouts were not mature enough to earn the tougher merit badges like lifesaving, first aid, emergency preparedness, and orienteering. Consider the thousands of scouts on staff at summer camps and high adventure bases every year who conduct real searches, often without assistance from what some in this forum would consider "real searchers".

I leave you with a final point to consider. Administrator Fugate is pushing his whole community doctrine pretty hard and a lot of us at the top levels of EM are adopting it rapidly. You might not want to publicly deride a valuable partner. You might instead try to help them out.

http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=4941

[The0-1Guy]

As an eagle scout, a merit badge counselor, an arrowman, a former cadet, a two time graduate of NESA, and a professional federal emergency manager I have to say that I am disappointed in how this conversation has progressed.

Scouting taught me more practical skills and a heck of a lot more about character than CAP did. CAP taught me discipline and bearing. Combining the two is what made me who I am and I have gone pretty far in this profession for being only 24.

If you  are a senior member and have doubts about the ability of scouters to teach SAR then take the leap and apply to be a counselor. You may be surprised to note that you will have to provide proof that you are competent to teach the badge just like everyone else. If you are a scouter and have doubts about your scouts being mature enough to conduct a search then teach them what they need to know. Scouting would be in pretty poor shape if all of our scouts were not mature enough to earn the tougher merit badges like lifesaving, first aid, emergency preparedness, and orienteering. Consider the thousands of scouts on staff at summer camps and high adventure bases every year who conduct real searches, often without assistance from what some in this forum would consider "real searchers".

I leave you with a final point to consider. Administrator Fugate is pushing his whole community doctrine pretty hard and a lot of us at the top levels of EM are adopting it rapidly. You might not want to publicly deride a valuable partner. You might instead try to help them out.

http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=4941

coming from me, an Eagle Scout, I totally agree.  I am a senior member in CAP now, and what we do in CAP is nearly a reflection of BSA except there are no campouts, wilderness survival camps (1 week, hunt your own food, find your own water).  I love what I do now in CAP and I love what I did in BSA... the biggest thing for both organizations to understand is that we are all on the same team, serving the same country. We both have the same flag on our uniforms!

Thank you nesagsar for your post.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We do however hold slightly different values...

[nesagsar]

We do however hold slightly different values...

What part of the scout oath, scout law, scout motto, and scout slogan do you have an issue with?

[lordmonar]

We do however hold slightly different values...

What part of the scout oath, scout law, scout motto, and scout slogan do you have an issue with?

A Scout is Reverent  I Will do my duty to God.   And how the BSA enforces it.

[nesagsar]

There are ways around that issue if the adult leaders are tolerant and willing to help rather than hinder the scout's progress.

[Eclipse]

There are ways around that issue if the adult leaders are tolerant and willing to help rather than hinder the scout's progress.

So, violate the organisation's membership rules while you're teaching "ethics"?

I personally have no issue whatsoever with a private organization maintaining whatever stance they see fit.  That doesn't mean I
have to agree with them, but it does mean you either comply or you disengage.  Circumventing the clearly stated rules in the name
of "good for all", isn't.

For the record, I was a scout and so are my kids.

[Walkman]

Requirements are here:
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Search_%26_Rescue

Most of it is classroom rather that field work. With as many volunteer opportunities that are available for the average person to get involved in SAR work, this looks like a way to get the youth with a natural bent toward the work, but no knowledge of it's existence introduced to the community. Like people have been mentioning, many of the MBs are meant to be "Hey, I didn't know this stuff existed, but I think it's really cool and want to know more" experiences.

I still see this as a recruiting tool. A group of troops in my area that fall under a common religious affiliation is having a big camp this November and they've asked me if I would put something together for a Saturday activity.

[lordmonar]

There are ways around that issue if the adult leaders are tolerant and willing to help rather than hinder the scout's progress.

Which violates the the frist scout Law.  A Scout is Trustworthy.

Don't get me wrong....I like the BSA....a lot......but I have still have problems with this.

[lordmonar]

Requirements are here:
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Search_%26_Rescue

Most of it is classroom rather that field work. With as many volunteer opportunities that are available for the average person to get involved in SAR work, this looks like a way to get the youth with a natural bent toward the work, but no knowledge of it's existence introduced to the community. Like people have been mentioning, many of the MBs are meant to be "Hey, I didn't know this stuff existed, but I think it's really cool and want to know more" experiences.

I still see this as a recruiting tool. A group of troops in my area that fall under a common religious affiliation is having a big camp this November and they've asked me if I would put something together for a Saturday activity.

Even it is not a recruiting tool....it is certainly an opportunity for closer ties with the BSA. 
I am currently looking into getting to be a merit badge counselor for SAR, Aviation, Electronics, First Aid....just to name a few.  CAP could easily be the go to people for SAR and aviation merit badge in most communities.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We do however hold slightly different values...

What part of the scout oath, scout law, scout motto, and scout slogan do you have an issue with?

A Scout is Reverent  I Will do my duty to God.   And how the BSA enforces it.

Add to that their views on homosexuals (in line with Russia's), and they are basically Octebriata and Pioneri. It's a good program for kids I suppose, but they won't be seeing my children.

[RadiomanUSCG]

RiverAux, are you the same RiverAux from Fredsplace? If so, it's tc1uscg.. just to clarify who I am..
Well guys, having spent 20 years active duty in the Coast Guard, graduate from both national and inland SAR schools, involved in hundreds of SAR cases, having been involved with boy scouts since 1997, the proud  father of an eagle scout and of a star scout and serving as an asst scout master for our troop since 2001, I'm amazed at some of the negativity from what I thought were some professional people. Some of your remarks is just out of line but I'm sure the ones who talk smack about just what the boy scouts are trying to do with this badge, you can go to bed tonight, sleep sound as we are not trying to pee on your territory or outsource your jobs to a bunch of 12 year olds. However, I'm sure if we can teach monkeys to fly, we can teach them how to find a senior citizen in the woods. As far as scouts getting lost, I guess a CAP flyer has never had an in-flight emergency or crashed. Just saying.

[RadiomanUSCG]

We do however hold slightly different values...

What part of the scout oath, scout law, scout motto, and scout slogan do you have an issue with?

A Scout is Reverent  I Will do my duty to God.   And how the BSA enforces it.

Add to that their views on homosexuals (in line with Russia's), and they are basically Octebriata and Pioneri. It's a good program for kids I suppose, but they won't be seeing my children.

Gee, the military ONCE had this same view. However, I'm sure reading between your lines, you don't feel we should discriminate. Well, we do. We do a lot. We discriminate against convicted felons,  ANYONE who is listed as a sex offender (regardless what degree or offense it might have been). We discriminate against anyone who has a record of battery or abuse rather it's beating children or their spouse. We discriminate against anyone that could be a threat to the boys. Heck, we even discriminate against smokers.  Not saying your GAY people are a threat but they do make people feel uncomfortable so that's enough for the policy, for now at least. Now, it took the Navy years before it shaved off its beards. It took the Coast Guard till 1984 to do the same. It took the military years before we allowed women be in charge of units designed for combat. Matter in fact, I think it was the CG who first allowed women to command 95ft patrol boats. We discriminate against raciest. So, as far as the GAY thing goes, I can bet, in about 20 or so years, you might see gays be open and be in scouts. However, till the MAGORITY of parents keep telling the scouts they don't want gays mixing with the boys, I can bet that's going to change anytime soon. Now, you can sit back and pick on one thing the scouts discriminate against, but as you can see, I'm sure there are MANY parents out there today who are happy with our standards. So,  you may choose to keep your kids out of the program. But your just cheating them out of an experience that just might serve them one day. I never was a scout myself but I have one son, an eagle scout, and one as a star scout who are. All I can say is it's just as enjoyable to watch them start their first fire, cook a meal for 20 and sleep in all kinds of weather. As good as it is to seem them get their first touch down, or drive off on their first date. Priceless. Just something to think about before you pull this gay card thing mate.

[sarmed1]

Derail: 

However, till the MAGORITY of parents keep telling the scouts they don't want gays mixing with the boys, I can bet that's going to change anytime soon.

This is my favorite misconception about the "gays"  that they are some kind of evil predatory type of animal out to have sex with unsuspecting children.  BSA allows women to be scout leaders: looking at the news on what seems like a weekly basis anymore there is always some story about some trusted female teacher that has had sex with one or more male students under 18.  No one seems to worry about that though....straight ok, you wont ever do anything bad, but oh that gay man, well he is definately going to rape a little boy becase he is.....ah um...well gay?

So,  you may choose to keep your kids out of the program. But your just cheating them out of an experience that just might serve them one day.

Yup, good plan, try to teach your kids values that you think are appropriate...but cave in so they can get a good experience. " ....yes son treat everyone with respect, never judge a book by its cover...oh wait except people who are gay, or dont believe in God...they dont count"
Or if your son happens to be gay or doesnt practice an approved relegion; then its technically the BSA that is cheating them out of an experience (unless you tell them to lie about it just to get the benies.....)

I'm sure there are MANY parents out there today who are happy with our standards

I am sure there were many parents out there that were happy that schools or jobs or neighborhoods excluded blacks or jews or communists.....that doesnt mean that it was ok just because they were happy with it.  It just means they support the policy of discrimination and exclusion.  Would you still support the progam if they decided to start exlcuding some other groups.... muslims, hispanics, the handicap?.... is it ok still because its a private orgnizaton?

All I can say is it's just as enjoyable to watch them start their first fire, cook a meal for 20 and sleep in all kinds of weather. As good as it is to seem them get their first touch down, or drive off on their first date. Priceless. Just something to think about before you pull this gay card thing mate.

Huh?  I fail to see how "the gay card"  changes any of that or otherwise diminshes the value of the experience. Or are you saying that if the BSA is forced to allow gay scouts and leaders the organization will just fold up and die rather than adapt to societes accepted standards of behavior, thus cheating you out of said priceless experiences?

rant comlete:  I had a thought there more in line with the actual topic.. but I lost it somewhere....

mk