GIIEPS - CAP goes high tech

[SARJunkie]

Why dosent cAP invest in a few BGAN or VSAT satellite internet systems.   They dont work from the air, but they do when you land at the airport. Everyone else and their brother have them....

[Major Lord]

Narrow band frequencies provide a narrower "tube" though which the data must pass. To send the same amount of information will require more time over a narrower channel. Most CAP people are probably not into SSTV, since its a little outdated, but it is roughly comparable to sending a FAX. Given enough time, you can send any resolution and size photo you want.

Major Lord

Agree that it is antiquated.  However, what it does offer is the ability to transmit and receive images over a frequency when other technology may not be available (ie cell service, internet, etc.).  As such, it's a technology that can be beneficial in a real emergency, even if it's not particularly glamorous.

Preaching to the choir! I love SSTV, and it is cheap and easily adaptable to our current gear. There is a company selling a combined camera and SSTV camera about 2 inches square that could literally be built into a Com Microphone.

Major Lord

[davidsinn]

Why dosent cAP invest in a few BGAN or VSAT satellite internet systems.   They dont work from the air, but they do when you land at the airport. Everyone else and their brother have them....

With modern data sizes it would literally be faster and cheaper to fly and hand deliver a thumb drive with pictures to nearly anywhere in the country.

[SARJunkie]

Not really.  200 bucks a month will get you 1Mb upload by 2Mb Download Via satellite.

What if you dont have internet, and need 'real time' photos?

[Spaceman3750]

Not really.  200 bucks a month will get you 1Mb upload by 2Mb Download Via satellite.

What if you dont have internet, and need 'real time' photos?

$2400/yr for one unit, which in many places would sit on the shelf at wing HQ?

Whatever happened to SDIS?

[SARJunkie]

Why would it sit on the shelf?  how many times have you been to an activity that dosent have sufficient internet?  SAREX's, Cadet Special Acts, Encampments.....  The usage is endless. and of course REDCAPS and DR Missions.

SDIS is dead, Globalstar craped the bed, and dosen't have enough birds in the sky for any decent coverage.

[Spaceman3750]

Why would it sit on the shelf?  how many times have you been to an activity that dosent have sufficient internet?  SAREX's, Cadet Special Acts, Encampments.....  The usage is endless. and of course REDCAPS and DR Missions.

In short? GOBs & hoarders. I'm not aware of those types in my area/wing but I am confident they're out there.

[SARJunkie]

GOB's?

Horders?  im not following?

[a2capt]

The hoarders who like 'trophies' to stay with them, and make it too hard to get at by establishing hoops and hurdles to get to it.

..and the GOBs who apply that logic above only to people outside their "network".

[SARJunkie]

Easy...FIRE THEM!

Tell them to fly a kite!

[JoeTomasone]

Narrow band frequencies provide a narrower "tube" though which the data must pass. To send the same amount of information will require more time over a narrower channel. Most CAP people are probably not into SSTV, since its a little outdated, but it is roughly comparable to sending a FAX. Given enough time, you can send any resolution and size photo you want.

Major Lord

Agree that it is antiquated.  However, what it does offer is the ability to transmit and receive images over a frequency when other technology may not be available (ie cell service, internet, etc.).  As such, it's a technology that can be beneficial in a real emergency, even if it's not particularly glamorous.

It's also not geographically diverse; i.e. the aircraft will have to fly close enough to the intended receiver and loiter in order to transmit the data.   If you're gonna do that, why not fly somewhere that cell service IS available, land, and transmit more in a shorter period of time while not burning fuel?

[bosshawk]

Perhaps attach the GIIEPS to the kite?  Determine whether or not there is enough weight allowance to attach ARCHER and SDIS to it, also.

[SARJunkie]

Im sure they would all lmake a great wheel chock! 

[A.Member]

Narrow band frequencies provide a narrower "tube" though which the data must pass. To send the same amount of information will require more time over a narrower channel. Most CAP people are probably not into SSTV, since its a little outdated, but it is roughly comparable to sending a FAX. Given enough time, you can send any resolution and size photo you want.

Major Lord

Agree that it is antiquated.  However, what it does offer is the ability to transmit and receive images over a frequency when other technology may not be available (ie cell service, internet, etc.).  As such, it's a technology that can be beneficial in a real emergency, even if it's not particularly glamorous.

It's also not geographically diverse; i.e. the aircraft will have to fly close enough to the intended receiver and loiter in order to transmit the data.   If you're gonna do that, why not fly somewhere that cell service IS available, land, and transmit more in a shorter period of time while not burning fuel?

That would take much longer.  You make it sound as if transmission takes hours.  It doesn't - not even close.  We're talking minutes.   

The longest transmission of a single photo I've seen is about 3 min. or so and that was a higher resolution photo.  In most cases, a quick, lower resolution image (quicker transmit time) is good enough to determine whether additional info is needed.  If it is, a higher res. image can be sent (note:  the photo does not need to be retaken).  Resolution was good enough for all DR assessments I've seen (real world).   High birds can be used as repeaters.  Again, this is not cutting edge technology but cutting edge is not always needed.   Fact is that it works, plain and simple, and that's what it's really about.  A low cost, practical solution that meets the demand - isn't that really CAP?!

[SARJunkie]

So you take the pic and send it via slowscan.  you still have to have a ground receive station within LOS of the bird.  How does the ground station get the image to the client?  they still need internet access...

[A.Member]

So you take the pic and send it via slowscan.  you still have to have a ground receive station within LOS of the bird.  How does the ground station get the image to the client?  they still need internet access...

Ground station only has to be LOS from the final send.   Again, high birds can serve as repeaters to extend range.   As a result, the ground station can be a looong way from the target/originator.

In the real world cases I've worked, CAP had a comm center co-located in or adjacent to a command center with the client (other local, state, and federal agencies).  There was no need to send the image elsewhere.  Decision makers were there, on-site and could review the images immediately.  No internet required.

[JoeTomasone]

The longest transmission of a single photo I've seen is about 3 min. or so and that was a higher resolution photo.  In most cases, a quick, lower resolution image (quicker transmit time) is good enough to determine whether additional info is needed.  If it is, a higher res. image can be sent (note:  the photo does not need to be retaken).  Resolution was good enough for all DR assessments I've seen (real world).   High birds can be used as repeaters.  Again, this is not cutting edge technology but cutting edge is not always needed.   Fact is that it works, plain and simple, and that's what it's really about.  A low cost, practical solution that meets the demand - isn't that really CAP?!

For Deepwater Horizon, hundreds of pictures of the coastline PER SORTIE were taken.   For FLWGs RECON program, it could be dozens.   Now, if all you have is one picture to transmit, SSTV might work for you - but if we're talking about lots of images, that's not going to cut it - and lets not forget that SSTV requires an active operator on the other side to receive, unlike one of the several methods you could transfer files over the internet.   

Please elaborate on what set of circumstances a highbird would reasonably extend the comms range of another aircraft in which it would not be more expeditious to have the aircraft simply fly to the recipient and transmit.   I can't come up with any.

[A.Member]

For Deepwater Horizon, hundreds of pictures of the coastline PER SORTIE were taken.   For FLWGs RECON program, it could be dozens.   Now, if all you have is one picture to transmit, SSTV might work for you - but if we're talking about lots of images, that's not going to cut it - and lets not forget that SSTV requires an active operator on the other side to receive, unlike one of the several methods you could transfer files over the internet.

So, think about those scenarios for a minute.   Are the resources on the receiving side, ie the client, truly able to evaluate/analyze hundreds of pictures per sortie near real time even if you could get them there?  I highly doubt it.  So, in that case, I agree with you.   It's best to simply RTB and bring the card with you.  Again, use the right solution for the situation.

As for the operator, you already have people in comms anyway.   That said, it doesn't require an "active operator" any more so than any other solution with file transfer to the internet (as a matter of fact, the way ours is set up, all transmitted images are picked up by a repeater and automatically loaded to secure webpage).  Regardless, in either case, somebody on the receiving end will want to confirm the images were received.

Please elaborate on what set of circumstances a highbird would reasonably extend the comms range of another aircraft in which it would not be more expeditious to have the aircraft simply fly to the recipient and transmit.   I can't come up with any.

I can come up with many.   The DR situations I've been involved with (ex. flooding, high winds) had very specific sorties with multiple targets.  I had photos (typically 4) taken of a target, then transmitted them while in route to the next target.  These target could 60 miles apart.   Do you honestly think a 172 can RTB, land, hand off images, take off again, and move to a new target quicker than the image transfer?   You can't really believe that.

[N Harmon]

Yeah, I can't see needing real time imagery for 99% of the missions we fly. So having a few kits like this would be a good idea. But I think it would be better if we assigned them to specialized teams and then moved the teams around with the equipment. That way it doesn't arrive on someone's doorstep who has never used it before.

[Major Lord]

If the need for airborne imagery is purely strategic, the technique of dropping off an SD card or memory module is the probably the best way to provide high res images. I think its important to distinguish between the relatively low grade of imagery involved in video, compared to the generally superior still image from film or high res digital imagery. If we have a need for video, its most likely to be purely tactical (i.e. giving Ground teams real-time data concerned with team movement and hazards...like zombies) Sending high resolution video in real time is a tall and pricey order!

Major Lord