Emergency Lights on Vehicles

[DBlair]

I remember back in NJWG during the 1990s (not sure if this is still the case), CAP members were authorized by the state to display blue emergency lights on their vehicles during a mission if they were in positions of Mission Coordinator (now 'Incident Commander'), Mission Pilot, or Ground Team Leader.

I was curious if other Wings have any such agreement with the state. If not, are there any non-state regulated practices used in your Wing? For example, I've heard that yellow caution lights are used in some Wings, etc.

This came up in a recent discussion and it seems to be an interesting and somewhat unique situation. Any thoughts?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Indiana used to have red and blue lights in 99-03, but that went out the window. I would think that blue light boxes would be ok, but the red could just be done without. We aren't fire or police. Now the only thing that is allowed in Indiana is yellow and/or white.

[Eclipse]

I was curious if other Wings have any such agreement with the state.

Yes - we agree not to put lights on our vehicles and the state police agree not to arrest us.

There are a few members with orange magnet strobe lights, but beyond that the wing does not and cannot authorize blue or red lights for our members.  The few who show up with blue or red are doing so under their association with some other agency and are not allowed to use them during CAP operations.

We've also had a few "issues" with this, as you can imagine.

((*sigh*))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk1qQU836XQ

[CommGeek]

Is it worth the average 3 minutes that you would gain running 'Emergency'?

We are not first responders.  We have nothing to gain with lights.

When was the last time you saw an ambulance or firetruck at a red light, with all its lights a sirens flashing, and then some stupid driver 'not see it' and keep going?  What good would a single blue or red light due on a POV?  Its more dangerous than good! CAP is in now way able to accept the liability!  too much risk!

I can see a CAP yahoo with their red lights not even stopping at a traffic light and going right through....not good!

[ELTHunter]

I'm just wondering why a Mission Pilot would need a blue light....on a ground vehicle any way.

[CommGeek]

They have a red light on their plane!  hahaha

The meaning of red and blue differ from State to State...  FL   Blue = Law, Red = everyone else

[CommGeek]

I'm just wondering why a Mission Pilot would need a blue light....on a ground vehicle any way.

So they can blow through stop lights, and get to the plane 3 minutes faster than they normally would...
... Just so they can wait 20 min for the rest of the crew!   

[DBlair]

I was curious if other Wings have any such agreement with the state.

Yes - we agree not to put lights on our vehicles and the state police agree not to arrest us.
...

We've also had a few "issues" with this, as you can imagine.

lol I remember back then, the most common issue were members with blue lights driving into states where blue = law enforcement. The police didn't seem to like that very much. lol Also, as with EMS, Fire, etc, of course there were a few members who seemed to stretch things considerably in liberally using their lights. This has probably been the case in other states as well, haulting any such light authorizations.

I just figured I'd ask as this came up in a conversation recently and it seemed to be a unique situation of blue lights being authorized and so I was curious.


Just for clarification... in NJ, red lights = police, blue lights = Fire, EMS, etc.

[EMT-83]

Is it worth the average 3 minutes that you would gain running 'Emergency'?

Three minutes is probably stretching it. A lot.

[CommGeek]

Our Dept did a study over a  1 year period...County wide...so that also included the City and Rural.

bottom line is its not worth it.

[cap235629]

I see a need for a yellow/amber mini-light bar on ground team vehicles to help with visibility at night (have nearly been run down DFing). I also can see a use for a public address system like most sirens have, but NOT a siren.  We have many missing person searches here and the ability to project a voice louder than yelling can really be useful.

[PHall]

Other then some yellow "please don't hit me lights" on Ground Team vehicles to be used when you're parked on the side of the road, I can not think of a reason why a CAP vehicle would need lights.

I work for AT&T and I am at the side of the road all the time. Heck, some times we're in the middle of the road!
And the only flashing lights we have are the four-way flashers and a single yellow-orange strobe light.
Seems to work for us...

You want a bit more visibility at the side of the road, get some orange traffic cones. 3 or 4 should be enough.
The 12 or 18 inch size works pretty good. Most come with reflective tape on them too.
You can find them at most home improvement stores (Lowes, Home Depot, etc...).

[SarDragon]

Having a yellow light helps with airfield operations, too.

[Jerry Jacobs]

My County SAR Team is authorized to drive Code 3 (With lights and sirens), but only In the event of heavy traffic and it is believed the saved time would be critical in life saving. That being said, we still have to follow the speed limit, stop at lights and stop signs and follow the rules of the road.

From a CAP perspective I do not see any use of Code 3 lights except when driving on tarmacs, on the side of the road in visibility and MAYBE in a Disaster relief setting. We have no need for Code 3 driving

[Eclipse]

This is all CAP members need on their POV's.



(FYI, Google that term at your own risk!)

[Tubacap]

I have found a yellow rotating strobe useful for when I am on the side of the road at night and on airports.  The emergency flashers are good, but the strobe makes people actually slow down and pay attention.  4 way flashers do not always have the same effect on people.

[SarDragon]

This is all CAP members need on their POV's.

(FYI, Google that term at your own risk!)

Sadly, the tower flowers will not accept that lighting for driving around on the airfield. Over half of the missions I've been on have been on an airfield. Having my little cigarette lighter powered yellow light has made my job easier.

[Custer]

I remember back in NJWG during the 1990s (not sure if this is still the case), CAP members were authorized by the state to display blue emergency lights on their vehicles during a mission if they were in positions of Mission Coordinator (now 'Incident Commander'), Mission Pilot, or Ground Team Leader.

I was in JJ Wing in the 70's.  Back then everybody could display blue.  Only red was restricted for law enforcement use.

later in California sometime in the early 80's I remember listening on on the radio net where we were told we had to have all light bars covered until further notice - that never came.

[a2capt]

Having my little cigarette lighter powered yellow light has made my job easier.

Yup... push roof glass button, reach out and place light. Makes airport people happy. Flashers don't. .. around here.

[Lord of the North]

CAPR 77-1 paragraph 10f

Marking of rescue vehicles must conform to federal, state, and local laws. The type of light bar used on
vehicles must be approved in writing by the wing commander (region commander if a region vehicle) and must
follow the narrowest guidelines established by the resident state and all surrounding states. The colors used on
approved light bars will be amber or amber/white.. The colors red and blue on light bars or the use of sirens are not
authorized for use on any CAP vehicle.

[cap235629]

CAPR 77-1 paragraph 10f

Marking of rescue vehicles must conform to federal, state, and local laws. The type of light bar used on
vehicles must be approved in writing by the wing commander (region commander if a region vehicle) and must
follow the narrowest guidelines established by the resident state and all surrounding states. The colors used on
approved light bars will be amber or amber/white.. The colors red and blue on light bars or the use of sirens are not
authorized for use on any CAP vehicle.

Your point?

[JayT]

My County SAR Team is authorized to drive Code 3 (With lights and sirens), but only In the event of heavy traffic and it is believed the saved time would be critical in life saving. That being said, we still have to follow the speed limit, stop at lights and stop signs and follow the rules of the road.

From a CAP perspective I do not see any use of Code 3 lights except when driving on tarmacs, on the side of the road in visibility and MAYBE in a Disaster relief setting. We have no need for Code 3 driving

So your SAR Team is allowed to go 'Code 3' in 'heavy traffic' if you think the time would be critical in 'life saving?' Who determines that? Who 'authorizes' you?

[Jerry Jacobs]

My County SAR Team is authorized to drive Code 3 (With lights and sirens), but only In the event of heavy traffic and it is believed the saved time would be critical in life saving. That being said, we still have to follow the speed limit, stop at lights and stop signs and follow the rules of the road.

From a CAP perspective I do not see any use of Code 3 lights except when driving on tarmacs, on the side of the road in visibility and MAYBE in a Disaster relief setting. We have no need for Code 3 driving

So your SAR Team is allowed to go 'Code 3' in 'heavy traffic' if you think the time would be critical in 'life saving?' Who determines that? Who 'authorizes' you?

The determination must be made by one of the Sheriff Deputies that oversees the team.

[JayT]

So what's an example of something you would flip on the flashers for?

[Custer]

CAPR 77-1 paragraph 10f :  Marking of rescue vehicles must conform to federal, state, and local laws. The type of light bar used on vehicles must be approved in writing by the wing commander (region commander if a region vehicle) and must follow the narrowest guidelines established by the resident state and all surrounding states. The colors used on approved light bars will be amber or amber/white.. The colors red and blue on light bars or the use of sirens are not authorized for use on any CAP vehicle.

I just remembered the incident that set things in motion out here - we actually had a couple of people going up the I5 running code - and they got pulled over by the Highway Patrol, at which point they explained in great detail why they were authorized to do that.

Obviously they were not.  This was around 1984.  I should also mention it was not even a CAP vehicle - it was a privately owned light pickup truck.

Information was not instantaneous in those days and I never got the full story on what the aftermath of that was outside of the radio traffic on that evenings net saying we had to cover all light bars and not use them.

[caphornbuckle]

Indiana:

Red=Fire/Ambulance
Red/Blue=Law Enforcement
Blue=Volunteer Firefighter (personal vehicle) BTW:  This one seriously confuses those from the south who's Police Vehicles have only Blue Lights and have never been up in Indiana before.
Green=Volunteer EMS (personal vehicle)
Yellow=Anyone who wants to use them (usually slow moving or frequently stopping vehicles)

Volunteer Firefighters and EMS personnel in their personal vehicles must still obey the speed limit and obey traffic signals when they use their lights.

There are a few vehicles with yellow lightbars in my wing.  These are usually most of our older ones or those assigned to units involving ES.  They are generally used only for most examples shown above (stopping on side of roads, airports, etc.).

[Capt Ford]

I think that yellow lights (without siren) is good enough.

Example: I work security for a golf community and we have a fleet of old police cruisers with only yellow light bars on top and no siren. We have the authority to pull over speeders within the community, and the whole two times I've actually had to pull people over, once I got behind them and turned on the flashing yellows they pulled right over.

So in other words, I think that once people catch some type of bright flashing yellow light it would force them to slow down and keep a close eye on their surroundings. Which works great for UDF and Ground Team personnel and is just pointless for anyone else.

[wuzafuzz]

Most airports I've been on, or worked at, only required a flashing yellow light or orange/white checkered flag when operating a vehicle on or near movement areas as directed by ground control.  Ramps, tie-down areas, and hangar rows?  Nope.  If you are on an airport that requires those lights in non-movement areas, get a little yellow Kojak light (in compliance with your state laws and CAP regs) and call it good.

The only other reason I might want a yellow flashy light is if I'm a ground team out in the middle of nowhere.  Might prove handy to help a plane find me at night.  Of course there are other ways to do that.

The rest of the time those light bars are just costing you a few miles per gallon for no good reason.  If I have to park near a road, I pull far enough off the road no flashing lights are needed or desirable.

I thought it was interesting the CAP reg cited earlier requires compliance with all neighboring state laws, not just your own.  So if you are good to in the State of Confusion, but one of the states next door says no, you are out of luck.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Okay, I do have to chime in here...

Once upon a time, we were working with the State Patrol, and trying to work with their aircraft. Things were less than good there...

So, the State Patrol decided to create something called "Pimp My Corporate Van."

Before we even discovered that it was missing, the van was returned with an Amber LED lightbar, complete with takedown lights, and separate strobes placed all around the vehicle.

Also included was a laptop mount in the passenger seat, power inverter for laptop, and a completely redesigned interior, consisting of the many bells and whistles needed to run the darned thing.

The only problem was that the lightbar included sirens. The Wing CC and Region CC decided that since the lightbar was donated, it would be acceptable to put a post-it note that read "NO!" right next to the siren controls. And a verbal promise to not play with the sirens.

Cadets named the van "Mothership."

Seniors: Starship Enterprise.

[N Harmon]

I would like to see our vans equipped with a single amber/white strobe beacon, and a traffic advisor.

[HGjunkie]

Okay, I do have to chime in here...

Once upon a time, we were working with the State Patrol, and trying to work with their aircraft. Things were less than good there...

So, the State Patrol decided to create something called "Pimp My Corporate Van."

Before we even discovered that it was missing, the van was returned with an Amber LED lightbar, complete with takedown lights, and separate strobes placed all around the vehicle.

Also included was a laptop mount in the passenger seat, power inverter for laptop, and a completely redesigned interior, consisting of the many bells and whistles needed to run the darned thing.

The only problem was that the lightbar included sirens. The Wing CC and Region CC decided that since the lightbar was donated, it would be acceptable to put a post-it note that read "NO!" right next to the siren controls. And a verbal promise to not play with the sirens.

Cadets named the van "Mothership."

Seniors: Starship Enterprise.

I want one of those... 

[RADIOMAN015]

CAP is NOT a first responder organization.  There's is no need for red or blue lights on any CAP vehicles.  CAP vehicles cannot exceed the speed limit and must adhered to all traffic regulations e.g. stop signs.   Again some of the "ES rambos" need to get back into reality . 

IF appropriate authorized (in the state the vehicle is operated in), a stopped CAP vehicle or vehicle on an airport could utilize a magnetic flashing orange/yellow type light as an added safety measure).  (Some state require permits for moving vehicles to have any sort of flashing lights on them).
RM

[A.Member]

CAP is NOT a first responder organization.  There's is no need for red or blue lights on any CAP vehicles.  CAP vehicles cannot exceed the speed limit and must adhered to all traffic regulations e.g. stop signs.   Again some of the "ES rambos" need to get back into reality . 

:clap:   :clap:

Between this thread and the "force protection" thread, all I can do is shake my head.

[HGjunkie]

CAP is NOT a first responder organization.  There's is no need for red or blue lights on any CAP vehicles.  CAP vehicles cannot exceed the speed limit and must adhered to all traffic regulations e.g. stop signs.   Again some of the "ES rambos" need to get back into reality . 

IF appropriate authorized (in the state the vehicle is operated in), a stopped CAP vehicle or vehicle on an airport could utilize a magnetic flashing orange/yellow type light as an added safety measure).  (Some state require permits for moving vehicles to have any sort of flashing lights on them).
RM

Do you just reject everything we talk about here on CAPTalk?

CAP is NOT a first responder organization.  There's is no need for red or blue lights on any CAP vehicles.  CAP vehicles cannot exceed the speed limit and must adhered to all traffic regulations e.g. stop signs.   Again some of the "ES rambos" need to get back into reality . 

:clap:   :clap:

Between this thread and the "force protection" thread, all I can do is shake my head.

Seriously...

[SJFedor]

CAP is NOT a first responder organization.  There's is no need for red or blue lights on any CAP vehicles.  CAP vehicles cannot exceed the speed limit and must adhered to all traffic regulations e.g. stop signs.   Again some of the "ES rambos" need to get back into reality . 

IF appropriate authorized (in the state the vehicle is operated in), a stopped CAP vehicle or vehicle on an airport could utilize a magnetic flashing orange/yellow type light as an added safety measure).  (Some state require permits for moving vehicles to have any sort of flashing lights on them).
RM

Do you just reject everything we talk about here on CAPTalk?

For once, he's got a point....

If you guys wanna "run code" and save lives and all that other fun stuff, go to school, become an EMT/Paramedic/Firefighter/LEO and do it the real, correct way. Once you do this, you'll learn that "going code" isn't all that great, and in fact, it puts you in danger more times than it's worth. As an EMT in an extremely busy metro 911 service, I cringe everytime we have to light up for something that we probably shouldn't have to. "Toe pain x3 months and short of air" comes to mind (responded to it last night). There's even a calculator somewhere on one of the EMS sites (JEMS maybe?) where you put your distance, speed limit, and your actual speed, and it'll tell you just how much time you save going code. It's not much.

Otherwise, you just end up as one of these (and not the secret kind either):

[CommGeek]

I think we all need red and blue lights...and national should issue us all Glock's too....

[a2capt]

Do you just reject everything we talk about here on CAPTalk?

At least there's more than a few clicks of the icons.
..and as a rarity, it does make sense. There's a few of these ES rambos around here. It may look interesting, it doesn't serve to further the mission when they become wannabe code (insert number here) responders and one man teams. About the times that come to mind where there might be a flashing light/bar/bubble is airport rampside operations or UDF with a tow truck ;-)

Okay, you could have bought an old ambulance like the Ghostbusters, too..

[DBlair]

Okay, you could have bought an old ambulance like the Ghostbusters, too..

I remember someone who actually did that back in the 1990s. It was quite an 'interesting' squadron SAR vehicle. lol

[ol'fido]

The only extra light I "might" put on a CAP van would be one of the white strobes they put on the top of most of the school buses I see these days.

I've done ES for 30+ years and one of the best lessons I've learned is DON'T RUSH! Move deliberately but rushing just leads to accidents and mistakes. We don't need to run code!

[spacecommand]

Our old van (not the new one) had a orange strobe that was used only when the van was parked at the side of the road for warning.  We never ran code and I never visioned a situation where we would need to run code at all.

If there are wings / units out there that someway feel they need to run code, then I would hope the driver would go through somesort of Emergency vehicle operations course sponsored by the local law enforcement/rescue agency.  In NYC ,Auxiliary Police officers who want to operate city vehicles must pass the same driving course given to full time officers.  But again I don't see a reason to run code. 

[EMT-83]

I think we've established that it's against 77-1 to run "code", unless that's what you would call driving around with flashing yellow lights.

Interesting that those of us who actually operate emergency vehicles are in agreement that this is a bad idea. Whoever wrote the policy seems to have gotten it right.

[RiverAux]

I don't recall anyone actually suggesting in this thread that blue lights and "running code" be authorized for CAP. 

[wuzafuzz]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I won't stop until my Third Responder/SAR/storm chasing/grocery getting/4x4 family truckster looks like this. 



Of course I'm kidding.  I only have two antennas on my truck and that looks funny to me.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Well, the only other use of a lightbar is that which the State Patrol specifically asked us to do with our vehicles...

In addition to the wonderful lightbar, we were given these strobe-like things that they put on the roof of the vehicle, which are only visible from above. On the road, it looks like a normal white van with weird stickers all around it, but from the air, we light up like a <insert winter holiday here> tree.

Very useful at 2 in the morning.

[HGjunkie]

Well, the only other use of a lightbar is that which the State Patrol specifically asked us to do with our vehicles...

In addition to the wonderful lightbar, we were given these strobe-like things that they put on the roof of the vehicle, which are only visible from above. On the road, it looks like a normal white van with weird stickers all around it, but from the air, we light up like a <insert winter holiday here> tree.

Very useful at 2 in the morning.

That'll be sure to wake the pilot up!   

[RRLE]

The USCG policy for USCG Auxiies is prohibitive of using any lights on an Auxie owned vehicle, other then the standard ones that came with the vehicle.

Operatons Policy Manual (OpsPolMan) 3.F.4. Vehicle Markings

Law enforcement lights may not be mounted or used in any way on a vehicle engaged in Auxiliary activities. Public safety lights may not be energized while engaged in Auxiliary activities. Law enforcement or public safety identifying stripes or markings may not be displayed while assigned to duty.

The reason for the strict prohibition is that many moons ago, the Aux had a problem with both its boats and its land mobile units going "Code" when they had no legal right or authority to do so.  Notice that Auxies cannot even energize a safety light once they get to "the scene" and park. Years ago, some Auxies objected to that rule and stated that local LE told them to use a safety light. The answer from Nat Aux was that if that was a local requirement then Auxies could not do the mission. Local LE or local anyone cannot trump USCG policy for the Aux. The Aux, in certain areas, most notably the NY/NJ area has a recurring problem with getting its members to remove the illegal blue lights from the members boats.

Auxie boats are allowed the use of a public safety ID light. And the use of that is limited.

OpsPolMan 4.E.12. Public Safety Vessel ID Light (bolding added)

The pilot rules allow use of an optional alternately flashing red and yellow (amber) light by public safety vessels engaged in public safety activities. The use of the light serves only as an identification signal and conveys no special privileges. Vessels using the identification light during public safety activities must abide by the Navigation Rules and must not presume that the light or the nature of the activity (emergency or otherwise) gives them precedence or right of way to complete the activity.

For sake of completness and the discussion, some additiional rules & regs regarding the boat light.

OpsPolMan 4.E.12.a. Optional Use

The public safety vessel ID light is optional for Auxiliary vessel facilities. Absence of this light does not affect the Auxiliary facility's certification to perform operational missions unless it is required by the Coast Guard unit commander. Purchase of the public safety vessel ID light is the responsibility of the facility owner – unless it is otherwise required by the Operational Commander, who would provide an ID light for the ordered mission.

OpsPolMan 4.E.12.b. Light Use Allowed

Auxiliary vessel facilities may use the public safety vessel ID light while under orders in the following situations:
• When patrolling regattas and marine events.
• When helping Coast Guard forces in maintaining security zones during such events as shuttle launches and hazardous cargo transfers.
• When needed for brief periods of identification of the Auxiliary facility. These periods include helping a boat in distress locate the Auxiliary facility during a SAR case, warning boats away from a hazardous situation, or when SAR activity takes place within the boundaries of regattas, marine events, or security zones.

OpsPolMan 4.E.12.c. Light Use Prohibited

An Auxiliary vessel facility may not display the public safety vessel ID under the following circumstances:
• As a towing light (see paragraph E.11 of this section for guidance on towing lights).
• During the prosecution of a SAR case, except as authorized above.

Auxies are prohibited in several places in the OpsPolMan from ever using blue LE lights on the water (or anywhere else).

[PhotogPilot]

I think we all need red and blue lights...and national should issue us all Glock's too....

No Tupperware guns for me, make mine a 1911a1 or a M9

[Major Lord]

I had a code three drive from Petaluma California to San Francisco (across the deadly golden gate bridge, which they would shut down for Code 3 traffic before they had movable barriers) with a patient who required full blast heat in summer time, a staff of medical people all in gowns and masks ( including me ) and trying to copy lab values over the radio while driving in Bay area traffic. Fun? Not so much.......Those amber rotators are pretty handy when you want to pass stopped traffic on the shoulder though. Technically, not permissible.

Major Lord

[zonaman]

In AZ, the state allows the use of white/amber any where on the vehicle, and red only in the rear of the vehicle, they can be strobe and you can have your head, tail, and blinker lights set up with a strobe option for vehicles that are used for construction, land scapeing, and SAR. The UDF teams I have been a part of have NEVER used their lights while driving, only when on the side of the road, airports, and AF base flightlines. I agree that CAP should never need to run at a code 3. Maybe and I mean MAYBE during a disaster could e-lights be used while driving.

[SarDragon]

Excuse me, what's a MABY?

[zonaman]

oops, Sory I ment maybe

[Major Lord]

oops, Sory I ment maybe

Just......can't........take....it.....anymore...........

Major Lord

[FlyTiger77]

oops, Sory I ment maybe

Contrary to popular belief, the "Spell Check" button is actually quite painless when pushed.

[Fubar]

I agree that CAP should never need to run at a code 3. Maybe and I mean MAYBE during a disaster could e-lights be used while driving.

One amusing thing about the response to Hurricane Katrina is everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY had flashing lights on their cars while zipping around. Various out-of-area LE vehicles, the red cross, a bunch of volunteer "disaster response" groups I hadn't heard of, and heck even a bunch of ham radio operators. How special can you feel having blinking lights when everybody else has them too?

Not that traffic was really an issue anyway.

[a2capt]

Not that traffic was really an issue anyway.

OTOH - If you didn't have lights, they wouldn't see you to shoot at you ;-)

[zonaman]

One amusing thing about the response to Hurricane Katrina is everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY had flashing lights on their cars while zipping around. Various out-of-area LE vehicles, the red cross, a bunch of volunteer "disaster response" groups I hadn't heard of, and heck even a bunch of ham radio operators. How special can you feel having blinking lights when everybody else has them too?

Not that traffic was really an issue anyway.

If you don't have flashing lights on your car, your not in the "Flashing Light Club"

[SARPilotNY]

If CAP really wanted to increase their membership they would allow us to have red and blue lightbars, sirens, badges and guns. 
I bet our membership would double...just think of all that free visibility!

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.