Creed for Ground Teams

[Spaceman3750]

Well there has to be a CAP incident Commander, who is overall responsable for the CAP portion of the incident/event.

The CAP IC may designate an Operations Section Chief to  oversea all operations.

Have you taken ICS?  this is all outlined in ICS-100, and 200.

Every agency Usually has an IC.   Even though there is an overall Incident Commander for the mission...

You're going to have to do a cite on this one for me. I've been all through the 100 and 200 materials and the ONLY place that I've seen a set up like this is when referring to a unified command, which within the scope of these conversations is implicitly known and usually doesn't have to be explicitly stated.

My understanding has always been that there is ONE incident command system for an incident (number of ICs irrelevant). One ops section, one finance/admin section, etc. Not the "CAP has an Ops Section, and Podunk PD has an Ops Section" model that you refer to. You could have 5 CAP ground teams (which from my understanding could potentially contain non-CAP resources reporting to the CAP GTL) which report to the GBD from Localtown PD who reports to the OSC from Localcounty Emergency Management Agency who reports to the IC from Localstate Emergency Management Agency (or to the Unified Incident Command). Am I going down the right road here?

[CommGeek]

First off. You have to understand that ICS text vs the real world are two different animals. ICS is flexible and is used differently whereever you go. 

Missing A/C Mission. 
in Florida A/C SAR  gets tasked to CAP.  So FLWG would setup an IC, with a compliment of staff positions (As needed)
Lets say that we now know that the a/c is located in Bay County.  More than likely Bay county Fire or Sheriff will setup Incident Commanders.  Yes I know the book says unified command.  But that rarely happens.  The CAP IC is responsible for CAP stuff, While the Fire IC is responsible for fire stuff. 

When you get into ICS-300 you will talk about Area Command.  Where 2 of more Incident Command Posts complete with their own IC's work for one overarching IC or Area Commander.

Most of the time its hard for CAP'ers or volunteers to grasp unless yo use it every day.

CAP regulations also state that CAP must have an IC in command of the mission.  We cant let a Fire/Law IC have operational control over our assets.

Even though ICS is around, its still a fight to all work together sometimes.

Did i confuse you or help?

[FlyTiger77]

First off. You have to understand that ICS text vs the real world are two different animals....

{snip}

When you get into ICS-300 you will talk about Area Command.  Where 2 of more Incident Command Posts complete with their own IC's work for one overarching IC or Area Commander.Even though ICS is around, its still a fight to all work together sometimes.

1. In a previous post you seemed to hold that ICS was the reason that CAP had its own incident commander and now you seem to hold that ICS is a nice text but doesn't reflect reality. It would seem that you want to have it both ways.

2. Area command is currently covered in ICS 400 and the information I got was that an area command was set up to handle multiple ICPs each working on different incidents whereas you seem to suggest that area command covers different ICPs for the same incident. I must disagree with you. What you describe should be handled by a unified command structure.

[Eclipse]

People aren't wearing enough hats...

[Angus]

Why do the Rangers need to try and take over like this?  The Rangers are a joke, when they get out of their little school they aren't qualified in ES.  All they are qualified in is Survival.  I personaly feel that the Ranger Program should be closed and the funds go towards actual Emergency Services Training like NESA. 

[CommGeek]

What does ICS have to do with Rangers

[CommGeek]

Eclipse....are you referencing this?

Awsome Video on Incident Command and Unifed Command...and why Unified Command dosent work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6iIz3tl5Vw 

(10 min Exerpt ...Full version here.)   http://cts.virginia.edu/videos/hatsOfIncidentCommand.zip

[CommGeek]

First off. You have to understand that ICS text vs the real world are two different animals....

{snip}

When you get into ICS-300 you will talk about Area Command.  Where 2 of more Incident Command Posts complete with their own IC's work for one overarching IC or Area Commander.Even though ICS is around, its still a fight to all work together sometimes.

1. In a previous post you seemed to hold that ICS was the reason that CAP had its own incident commander and now you seem to hold that ICS is a nice text but doesn't reflect reality. It would seem that you want to have it both ways.

2. Area command is currently covered in ICS 400 and the information I got was that an area command was set up to handle multiple ICPs each working on different incidents whereas you seem to suggest that area command covers different ICPs for the same incident. I must disagree with you. What you describe should be handled by a unified command structure.

The main reason CAP must have an IC is HSPD-5 states that in order to receive funding you must comply with ICS.  CAP R60-3 States we must have IC's and use ICS.  and in the real world each responding agency has their own IC. That's just the way it is.  Unified Command is great, but usually only used 'on paper'.  Some jurisdictions are really good with it.  others not soo much.

CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC.  There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff.  Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC.  Not another agency IC.

Deepwater Horizon had a USCG/BP IC, and CAP had an IC in LA, and FL.  Florida Emergency Mgt had an IC, Florida Environmental protection had an IC.....

my previous post has a great video on unified Command.

Lets take a look at the State and Federal (NotCAP) response to Deepwater Horizon.
There was a unifed command with USCG/BP Right? WRONG. on paper and in the press releases it looked that way. The only thing that was unified was the building they were all in.  everyone wants to be in charge....Watch the video.


Area Commands can be used for both the same or separate incidents.  AC is basically a clearing house for resources , and so that there is no duplication of effort.

Hurricane Katrina (federal Response)
7 Area Commands, all with their own ICP's....all on the same incident

2004 FL Hurricanes  (State/Federal Response)
4 separate responces in Florida.  4 separate ICP's reporting to one Area Command.

ICS is flexible.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse....are you referencing this?

Awsome Video on Incident Command and Unifed Command...and why Unified Command dosent work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6iIz3tl5Vw

No.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QJvc_SxFQ

[arajca]

CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC.  There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff.  Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC.  Not another agency IC.

And you wonder why we have a problem with being called upon to work with other organizations.

[CommGeek]

CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC.  There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff.  Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC.  Not another agency IC.

And you wonder why we have a problem with being called upon to work with other organizations.

Why is this a problem?

This is how every other orginization operates.  If you were a Firefighter, are you going to take tactical direction from a cop?

[HGjunkie]

...All they are qualified in is Survival...

And what's wrong with that? If they want to learn how to survive in an emergency situation, they have that choice. Same for CSS.

Personal Note: I have not been to either of these schools, but I do plan on attending CSS one day.

[CommGeek]

...All they are qualified in is Survival...

And what's wrong with that? If they want to learn how to survive in an emergency situation, they have that choice. Same for CSS.

Personal Note: I have not been to either of these schools, but I do plan on attending CSS one day.

Thats cool..but dont claim to be Elite, and and make us all look like fools...

[JC004]

CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC.  There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff.  Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC.  Not another agency IC.

And you wonder why we have a problem with being called upon to work with other organizations.

Why is this a problem?

This is how every other orginization operates.  If you were a Firefighter, are you going to take tactical direction from a cop?

If your incident is big enough to be multi-agency in the cases in which we usually operate, you are probably not taking much tactical direction from the IC.  You'd likely have unit leaders, branch directors, section chiefs...

[HGjunkie]

...Thats cool..but dont claim to be Elite...

What?

[CommGeek]

CAP's response will ALWAYS have a CAP IC.  There will also probably be an agency liaison for CAP assigned to another agencies IC, or Command Staff.  Our portion of the mission is directed by the CAP IC.  Not another agency IC.

And you wonder why we have a problem with being called upon to work with other organizations.

Why is this a problem?

This is how every other orginization operates.  If you were a Firefighter, are you going to take tactical direction from a cop?

If your incident is big enough to be multi-agency in the cases in which we usually operate, you are probably not taking much tactical direction from the IC.  You'd likely have unit leaders, branch directors, section chiefs...

True.  but remember the IC is the defacto boss.... It is implied that where span of control needs to be dropped down another level you would have an Ops Section....

What if its a train derailment, and all they want is one flight to take photos?  Do we need 20 people on the staff?
Why cant the IC work it?

The past several REDCAPS in FL have involved CAP and the County Sheriff....Thats it.  CAP Had an IC...and the sheriff did too...

[CommGeek]

...Thats cool..but dont claim to be Elite...

What?

Every Ranger I have ever met in my 16 years in CAP has claimed to be the best of the best....so naturally I said ok....show me!  then they feel stupid when they cant tie a simple knot, or a 'Ranger Medic' Cant find my pulse!

Just dont fall into the group of Rangers that knows it all....

[HGjunkie]

Every Ranger I have ever met in my 16 years in CAP has claimed to be the best of the best....so naturally I said ok....show me!  then they feel stupid when they cant tie a simple knot, or a 'Ranger Medic' Cant find my pulse!

Just dont fall into the group of Rangers that knows it all....

Personal Note: I have not been to either of these schools, but I do plan on attending CSS one day.

Again, i've never been to Hawk. I'm just saying, the ones who do go for the actual skills and plan to use them in one way or another have the right to. In my Scout Troop we go camping every month, and knowing how to do 1st Aid or tying knots are helpful for when you need them.

About the Rangers who can't tie knots or find a pulse; It's not that hard. Either they went for the badge and got nothing out of it or went to become a "Ranger", and again got nothing out of it.  I mean, geez I could do basic 1st Aid when I was 10. Not that hard.

(Well, I guess having an AF TSgt SERE Instructor as the head honcho on our annual Winderness Survival campout doesn't hurt either. )

[CommGeek]

Every Ranger I have ever met in my 16 years in CAP has claimed to be the best of the best....so naturally I said ok....show me!  then they feel stupid when they cant tie a simple knot, or a 'Ranger Medic' Cant find my pulse!

Just dont fall into the group of Rangers that knows it all....

Personal Note: I have not been to either of these schools, but I do plan on attending CSS one day.

Again, i've never been to Hawk. I'm just saying, the ones who do go for the actual skills and plan to use them in one way or another have the right to. In my Scout Troop we go camping every month, and knowing how to do 1st Aid or tying knots are helpful for when you need them.

About the Rangers who can't tie knots or find a pulse; It's not that hard. Either they went for the badge and got nothing out of it or went to become a "Ranger", and again got nothing out of it.  I mean, geez I could do basic 1st Aid when I was 10. Not that hard.

I think I like this Guy!!!!

[HGjunkie]

I think I like this Guy!!!!