Creed for Ground Teams

[SarDragon]

#4.... um, security forces, those who's job it is to protect the entire base, operations and personnel on the base they are assigned,with little chance of back up if something would go down on base have no room to talk for carrying knives? You have lost your mind... Cap cadets have Zero need to carry more than one small knife. I can think of a lot of reasons for security forces to carry multiple knives.... and it is no way cap members job to criticise  active duty members for the actions they take while one duty. How do you know that their commander did not order them to carry multiple knives?

Well, maybe some of that criticism is coming from folks who are, or have been, on active duty. That, IMHO, gives them the BTDT to be making criticisms.

[caphornbuckle]

You guys, as usual, are blowing things way out of proportion.

A cadet sitting in class doodling a "creed" of some sort is no different than a cadet chillin' at home sketching a new squadron patch.  It's just brainstorming and loving every minute of CAP.  As a cadet I did all of that and then some.  I'd rather a cadet scribble some squadron motto on a gum wrapper than be glued to their computer playing Medal of Honor or whatever those games are called.  Creativity, daydreaming and being excited about CAP is pretty friggin normal if you ask me.  Do you seriously expect a 14 or even a 17 year old to be as straight and narrow and "by the book" as a 40 year old senior member with 20+ years service?  Really?

Do we have an issue within CAP of elitism, stupid badges and berets?  Of course.  But just because a 12 or 15 year old kid cadet does it DOES NOT make it a bad thing.  It's not like they're suggesting it be branded onto their chest or mandate all GTs recited for every mission.  It's just someone screwing around and maybe being a little excited.  So get off your high horses and realize that it's nothing but a cadet being stoked about being a Cadet or Ground Team member.  I can think of a lot worse things a cadet could be doing with their time.

As for the Security Forces crap.  I have 70+ people in my squadron and I can say with confidence that no one, I mean NO ONE, is stupidliy carrying anything more than a pocket-clip knife in their ABU pocket and a multi-tool in their gear.  No one is issued or carries a bayonet, Kaybar or upside down fighting knife.  I'm sure there are some Defenders out there that are just as cheesey as some of our cadets and ground team members, and are probably former CAP cadets themselves, but you'll find goofballs in all walks of life, in every career field and MOS.

As a Security Forces NCO, I'll be glad to out PT you, out shoot you and carry a ruck further than you can imagine.  And I promise you I won't carry a knife bigger than maybe 3 1/2 inches.   

BTW....

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I did the same thing as a cadet and encourage it to all other cadets.  The more they are focused on CAP, the less they are getting into trouble or anything else they could be wasting their time on.  If a cadet is so dedicated to CAP that their imagination is being used to create, what's the big deal?

As for being Security Police Forces, I never carried more than my multi-tool when I was in.  The less on the belt was less to worry about losing or getting caught on something.  No need to play "Rambo" on an Air Force Base or in CAP.

[NCRblues]

I am active duty so i guess I'm allowed to criticise...

Having been Security Forces i can tell you, our commander (509th SFS whiteman AFB) had us draw military grade  knives (k-bar) from our armory and we were instructed to carry these if we were on WSA security or B area security. If we were on LE, were instructed to have them in the patrol car.

No one is playing "rambo" on base, they are in fact very useful to have around.

Ill be happy to take your challenge to try and out PT me or out shoot me...im pretty good....

I still stand by what i say, cadets should have one small knife with them..... that's it.

[caphornbuckle]

I am active duty so i guess I'm allowed to criticise...

Having been Security Forces i can tell you, our commander (509th SFS whiteman AFB) had us draw military grade  knives (k-bar) from our armory and we were instructed to carry these if we were on WSA security or B area security. If we were on LE, were instructed to have them in the patrol car.

No one is playing "rambo" on base, they are in fact very useful to have around.

Ill be happy to take your challenge to try and out PT me or out shoot me...im pretty good....

I still stand by what i say, cadets should have one small knife with them..... that's it.

Being former active duty and LE, I accept your criticism.    I agree with you wholeheartedly and the "Rambo" statement wasn't meant to be an insult (if you took it that way).  A small knife is all cadets need.  As for PT...you probably could outdo me there.  I haven't ran since Clinton was in office (adapted and edited for my purposes from "Space Cowboys").  Shooting...I'm pretty good there too...I miss my M-16!  Oh well, it's all good! 

[FlyTiger77]

...it is no way cap members [sic] job to criticise [sic]  active duty members for the actions they take while one [sic] duty. How do you know that their commander did not order them to carry multiple knives?

The notion that one's actions are beyond reproach merely because one is in the active duty military is interesting to say the least. The implication that the CAP member is of a lower caste and not worthy of commenting on an active duty service member's appearance and/or performance is alarming, especially when coming from an active duty service member who is also a CAP member.

In my mere 12.5 years of active duty service, I have seen plenty that needs criticism. I have also seen some extraordinary accomplishments.

[N Harmon]

I've never needed a ruler to judge whether a knife was appropriate or not for GSAR.

[GTCommando]

Couple of things:

1.  I started this topic because I'm very proud of CAP as an organization and ground teams within CAP are doing, and I thought it would be a good motivational tool and help build esprit de corps.

2.  By starting this topic, I was not intending to try and make GTs some sort of elitist group within CAP. I was DEFINITELY not trying to compare CAP GSAR to Air Force PJs or anything of that nature.  I've seen what happens when GTMs and GTLs get too full of themselves, and it's very detrimental to the team and the mission. 

3.  As for the creed posted by Stonewall recently, that more than fits the bill for what I was thinking of. The former cadet who wrote it should be proud.  :clap:

4.  Concerning field knives, the extent of what I carry is a multi-tool, folding pocketknife, and survival-utility knife with a 4 1/2 inch blade. Anything more would indeed be excessive (Although slightly more fun). 

Now hopefully I've cleared things up. If all of you think it would get out of hand, it will stop here. If not, we'll see where this goes, and thanks for the help.

[Stonewall]

For the record I carried a Ka-Bar combat knife throughout my entire time as a cadet.  Why?  Because naturally I knew I'd need something that huge to fight off bad guys [/sarcasm].

No matter where I've been in CAP (23 years now) there are always gung-ho cadets (and seniors) who think they /must/ have a huge combat knife as it is imperative in accomplishing the mission.  As a cadet who carried a Rambo knife I still remember the senior member's name who (before CPPT) tore me a new one for being so foolish in carrying such a barbarick fighting tool.  He, of course, was an Infantry Officer and forme 1st Ranger Battalion NCO.  If he didn't need one, then I certainly didn't need one.  Right?  Right.

But what we need to remember is, much like the goofy rescue/ground team creed that we're talking about, cadets will do things they think are cool and what they perceive as being done by the Real Military™.  Harness that motivation and excitement and demonstrate what is right, which is not always what is easy.  Stop putting these young hooahs down for loving CAP as their image of what is *cool* isn't always appropriate.

[ol'fido]

1. GT Motto- "Do your Job, do it right, and go home safe."

2. Knives of any length can be weapons whether they are 6" or not.

3. Knives are tools. Sometimes you need a big one and sometimes you need a small one. Just don't run around with them all over your gear or you start looking like Barry Sadler's "Garret Trooper".

4. Considering some of the "bat belts" I've seen on Security Forces, they don't have much room to criticize.

5. I sometimes carry a Spec-Plus Bolo. It's not your usual,cheap "tree beater" machete. It will actually cut something. I carry it in my pack and not on my belt. I mainly have it to teach shelter building or other survival subjects as I don't do GT anymore.


6. MBS Motto: "Is there any more coffee?"

#4.... um, security forces, those who's job it is to protect the entire base, operations and personnel on the base they are assigned,with little chance of back up if something would go down on base have no room to talk for carrying knives? You have lost your mind... Cap cadets have Zero need to carry more than one small knife. I can think of a lot of reasons for security forces to carry multiple knives.... and it is no way cap members job to criticise  active duty members for the actions they take while one duty. How do you know that their commander did not order them to carry multiple knives?

Lost my mind , Huh..? Well, I didn't say they were carrying multple knives. I said "bat Belts" with a the intent of conveying the fact that they themselves are carrying the kitchen sink and should not criticize others for doing the same. If a cadet has proved to me that he is trustworthy I have no problem with whatever kind of knife he has. One of my cadets was chief of SERE training at the USAFA during his time there. I would have no problem with whatever he carried. I didn't carry multiple knives as an Iinfantryman unless they ordered us to carry that stupid bayonet along.

[JC004]

...
But what we need to remember is, much like the goofy rescue/ground team creed that we're talking about, cadets will do things they think are cool and what they perceive as being done by the Real Military™.  Harness that motivation and excitement and demonstrate what is right, which is not always what is easy.  Stop putting these young hooahs down for loving CAP as their image of what is *cool* isn't always appropriate.

Precisely. 

[Major Lord]

I know its a clear cut (pun intended) case of topic drift, but I carry my Cold Steel Recon Tanto (in my backpack) since it works as a knife, hatchet, bludgeon, paper weight, etc, and its much harder to lose a big knife when you drop it in a pile of leaves, snow, or sand. It can be driven through steel sheet ( like for instance, a car roof) if necessary. I suggest Cadets stick to folders. There is a very nice assisted-opening knife with a spring loaded window breaker punch and seat belt cutter that should satisfy the "Ricky Rescue" in all of them. I think its made by S&W. Now I shall sheathe my cutting whit, which I know causes many of you stabbing pains, and whet my appetite for the slicing rebukes sure to come.

Major Lord

[EMT-83]

[snip]... a spring loaded window breaker punch and seat belt cutter... [snip]

It takes a field trip to the local mall to become really proficient.

[caphornbuckle]

I know its a clear cut (pun intended) case of topic drift, but I carry my Cold Steel Recon Tanto (in my backpack) since it works as a knife, hatchet, bludgeon, paper weight, etc, and its much harder to lose a big knife when you drop it in a pile of leaves, snow, or sand. It can be driven through steel sheet ( like for instance, a car roof) if necessary. I suggest Cadets stick to folders. There is a very nice assisted-opening knife with a spring loaded window breaker punch and seat belt cutter that should satisfy the "Ricky Rescue" in all of them. I think its made by S&W. Now I shall sheathe my cutting whit, which I know causes many of you stabbing pains, and whet my appetite for the slicing rebukes sure to come.

Major Lord

[snip]... a spring loaded window breaker punch and seat belt cutter... [snip]

It takes a field trip to the local mall to become really proficient.

Good thing we don't issue "Totin' Chip" Cards in CAP!   

[HGjunkie]

Good thing we don't issue "Totin' Chip" Cards in CAP!   

What's wrong with Totin' Chips? 

[CommGeek]

YOU ARE ALL YAHOO WANNABES!  KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK OF MAKING CAP GROUND TEAMS LOOK LIKE FOOLS!

[Stonewall]

YOU ARE ALL YAHOO WANNABES!  KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK OF MAKING CAP GROUND TEAMS LOOK LIKE FOOLS!

And I suppose you and the rest of FL wing ground teams are the tip of the speer?

Here is a picture I snapped of a Spring 2009 FTX with a FLWG Squadron.  Boy, can I tell you how high speed they were...
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And of course, the tip of the speer, the "field conditions" that made the FLWG ground team so hardcore.
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Now here's some old school hard chargers...sorry, not FLWG.
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[HGjunkie]

YOU ARE ALL YAHOO WANNABES!  KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK OF MAKING CAP GROUND TEAMS LOOK LIKE FOOLS!

[Major Lord]

In the People's Republic of Kalifornia, we refer to the "Totin Chip" as a "CKP", or "Concealed Knife Permit" . They are job security for emergency room doctors, and those who get to practice sutures.

Take it easy on the FL GT folks, remember the terrible challenges they have to face, steep hills, snow, canyons, ooooh wait, never mind.....

I like the Coleman air mattress-Very comfy! Was that an ACTUAL (notice inappropriate use of Capitalization) mission or a SAREX? Might as well be comfortable.....The Marines say you don't have to be practice to be miserable; When its time, God and the Corp will arrange it for you.


Major Lord

[HGjunkie]

In the Boy Scouts of America, the Totin' Chip is a card that shows the Boy Scout has demonstrated proficiency in handling and using knives safely.

Take it easy on the FL GT folks, remember the terrible challenges they have to face, steep hills, snow, canyons, ooooh wait, never mind.....

Major Lord

Not all of our terrain is nice and smooth, plus the boiling hot temperatures + humidity during the summer.

[Stonewall]

I like the Coleman air mattress-Very comfy! Was that an ACTUAL (notice inappropriate use of Capitalization) mission or a SAREX? Might as well be comfortable.....The Marines say you don't have to be practice to be miserable; When its time, God and the Corp will arrange it for you.

Meh, it was my first experience with a FLWG ground team since 1991 and was told it was going to be very challenging, tough and highly "tactical", whatever that means.  I was actually a little nervous because it had been almost 3 or 4 years since I had been in the field with CAP and that was with a different wing.  I will admit I was disappointed.

Not all of our terrain is nice and smooth, plus the boiling hot temperatures + humidity during the summer.

Grew up as a cadet in Florida and live here now, but I've lived in other places too and I can confirm that Florida is not the only place with high temperatures and humidity.  In fact, I think it's more of a challenge to have to contend with a change of seasons that includes both extremes; hot + humidity AND cold = ice/snow.

Nevermind me, guys.  I'm just a hasbeen who enjoys reflecting on his former life as an active CAP member.  I'm more of an out-dated old school kind of CAP member that has a different mindset and train of thought.