Quote from: phirons on May 20, 2011, 01:21:04 PM

Quote from: Abdomina on May 20, 2011, 03:48:05 AM
If woodland BDUS are such a problem (becuase they are green based), then how about we make 3-color desert ''DCUs'' an acceptable uniform. DCUs were and still are a uniform of the USAF but just used in low numbers as i believe (correct me if im wrong).

Then we would be in non-black boot territory. Serious $$$ there.

Not exactly. A set of desert boots that aren't made with extra special features aren't too bad, and from USCAV a set of Altima boots, using the discount code given is actually pretty good. A set of diggies ain't too bad, typically the same, or an up to $10 (saying you go to an over priced surplus store!) increase, has a set of BDU's.

Link for a typical set of boots:
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=20948&tabid=548&catid=373

However, a change like this would be impractical because, espically if we did the spring/summer uniform change thing, it would look lke we are following a current marine tradition (IIRC), this change would have to be in the manual, the USAF probably doesn't want people running arond in theater wear, it'd be hard to phase in, and [WARNING: OPINION] full color patches look awful on digges (I remember seeing a picture of somebody in a airsoft team with full color patches and it was extremely clashing).

I say we make a change into flightsuits.

QuoteI say we make a change into flightsuits.

I don't guess you've flown low-level missions in the South during the summer? I hate to think what a GT member would feel like in one on the ground during that time of the year.

Sorry this isn't on topic, but I couldn't let that comment pass.

Quote from: peter rabbit on May 20, 2011, 08:22:09 PM

QuoteI say we make a change into flightsuits.

I don't guess you've flown low-level missions in the South during the summer? I hate to think what a GT member would feel like in one on the ground during that time of the year.

A lot cooler then being in BDUs.  Flightsuits are like wearing tissue paper.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2011, 08:32:19 PM

Quote from: peter rabbit on May 20, 2011, 08:22:09 PM

QuoteI say we make a change into flightsuits.

I don't guess you've flown low-level missions in the South during the summer? I hate to think what a GT member would feel like in one on the ground during that time of the year.

A lot cooler then being in BDUs.  Flightsuits are like wearing tissue paper.

Oh, I disagree. I use an olde Nomex flight suit as coveralls, and they are only comfortable if I'm wearing something underneath to soak up the sweat. They let any breeze through fairly well, but they also tend to snag on vegetation more quickly than other, more suitable materials. I wouldn't ever recommend using Nomex flight suits for GTs. Actually, I'll extend that to any one piece garment, for fairly obvious reasons.

My 2 cents. I think black BDUs would be fine. The argument that they would make us look like special forces or something of the sort is non-unique as almost any uniform we could choose to wear is already being worn by somebody. Somebody already wears woodland, black, green, etc...

I think that woodland camo for SAR is simply foolish. I understand that we must wear vests but that seems like a reg designed to counteract the problems of another reg (uniform). We are required to wear camo and then required to wear reflective vest over it. That does not make much sense to me.

Google Search and rescue teams and see what 95% of them are wearing. They wear some random usually dark color pants and an orange, yellow, or red top. That makes sense to me. In my opinion CAP's solution of wearing a vest over camo creates one more layer to snag and get stuck (forgotten etc..). When I look at images of CAP members in the field wearing camo and orange vest, I must honestly say that it looks silly to me. This is just my opinion though.

EDIT: I'm from Oregon wing in which we get virtually zero GT calls because the state wants local law enforcement agencies to do the SAR. We occasionally go out for an ELT but that is very rare. I see no problems with BDUs because they hold up well and quite simply work for what we need them to.

Reason why I suggest a flight suit is that is a very practical uniform. Alot of pockets, waist size adjustment, zipper, it exsist within regulations, one color, and it is alot lighter. Also, a simple fix to sweat is under armor t-shirts, which are extremely popular from what I've heard. Lastly, it isn't in in a camouflage pattern, and could stop people from trying to purchase extremely expensive camouflage matching items.
Black BDU's wouldn't be much of a change because we'd still have to add it into regulations, still would have to wear a reflective vest, and black isn't a good night color, either.

Quote from: Littleguy on May 20, 2011, 08:06:39 PM

Quote from: phirons on May 20, 2011, 01:21:04 PM

Quote from: Abdomina on May 20, 2011, 03:48:05 AM
If woodland BDUS are such a problem (becuase they are green based), then how about we make 3-color desert ''DCUs'' an acceptable uniform. DCUs were and still are a uniform of the USAF but just used in low numbers as i believe (correct me if im wrong).

Then we would be in non-black boot territory. Serious $$$ there.

Not exactly. A set of desert boots that aren't made with extra special features aren't too bad, and from USCAV a set of Altima boots, using the discount code given is actually pretty good. A set of diggies ain't too bad, typically the same, or an up to $10 (saying you go to an over priced surplus store!) increase, has a set of BDU's.

Link for a typical set of boots:
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=20948&tabid=548&catid=373

However, a change like this would be impractical because, espically if we did the spring/summer uniform change thing, it would look lke we are following a current marine tradition (IIRC), this change would have to be in the manual, the USAF probably doesn't want people running arond in theater wear, it'd be hard to phase in, and [WARNING: OPINION] full color patches look awful on digges (I remember seeing a picture of somebody in a airsoft team with full color patches and it was extremely clashing).

I say we make a change into flightsuits.

im not talking about digis
im talking about--- http://tinyurl.com/3ramc9j

Quote from: Abdomina on May 20, 2011, 10:13:11 PM

Quote from: Littleguy on May 20, 2011, 08:06:39 PM

Quote from: phirons on May 20, 2011, 01:21:04 PM

Quote from: Abdomina on May 20, 2011, 03:48:05 AM
If woodland BDUS are such a problem (becuase they are green based), then how about we make 3-color desert ''DCUs'' an acceptable uniform. DCUs were and still are a uniform of the USAF but just used in low numbers as i believe (correct me if im wrong).

Then we would be in non-black boot territory. Serious $$$ there.

Not exactly. A set of desert boots that aren't made with extra special features aren't too bad, and from USCAV a set of Altima boots, using the discount code given is actually pretty good. A set of diggies ain't too bad, typically the same, or an up to $10 (saying you go to an over priced surplus store!) increase, has a set of BDU's.

Link for a typical set of boots:
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=20948&tabid=548&catid=373

However, a change like this would be impractical because, espically if we did the spring/summer uniform change thing, it would look lke we are following a current marine tradition (IIRC), this change would have to be in the manual, the USAF probably doesn't want people running arond in theater wear, it'd be hard to phase in, and [WARNING: OPINION] full color patches look awful on digges (I remember seeing a picture of somebody in a airsoft team with full color patches and it was extremely clashing).

I say we make a change into flightsuits.

im not talking about digis
im talking about--- http://tinyurl.com/3ramc9j

Diggies is a military nickname for the tri color pattern you show (DCU). I'm not talking about the brand. Or are you saying Digis has in digital patterns?

I am saying digies as in the digital pattern, the marines call desert MARPAT digies sometimes.

Quote from: Abdomina on May 20, 2011, 10:26:13 PM
I am saying digies as in the digital pattern, the marines call desert MARPAT digies sometimes.

Diggies is a basically Marine language for when wide spread use of digital patterns in the U.S didn't exsist for the tri color. That spread a bit into all services. It is still used today. The BDU's are known has cammies, and the marine corps still uses the term for their MARPAT woodland. The Navy actually uses it alot, mainly because the ship paint/ you can't find me when I fall overboard digital pattern known has the NWU isn't used in theater, but rather the tri color.

Quote from: Littleguy on May 20, 2011, 09:26:58 PM
Reason why I suggest a flight suit is that is a very practical uniform. Alot of pockets, waist size adjustment, zipper, it exsist within regulations, one color, and it is alot lighter. Also, a simple fix to sweat is under armor t-shirts, which are extremely popular from what I've heard. Lastly, it isn't in in a camouflage pattern, and could stop people from trying to purchase extremely expensive camouflage matching items.
Black BDU's wouldn't be much of a change because we'd still have to add it into regulations, still would have to wear a reflective vest, and black isn't a good night color, either.

[Grammar Cop] First of all, it's "a lot", two words. [/Grammar Cop]

Actually flight  suits are NOT as practical as you think. Lighter does not necessarily mean better. In many cases, its lightness is a handicap. Real Nomex flight suits are expensive, and there is no need for that fire resistant feature in GT work. Availability can be an issue. Also, the fabric is more fragile than you think it is. As stated above, it snags easily, and sewing Nomex isn't the most fun stuff around.

Since you didn't catch my hint about one-piece garments, I'll be direct. Bathroom breaks are inconvenient and annoying at best, in any environment, and in the field present even greater challenges.

All of the down sides, IMHO, greatly outweigh any potential advantages.

Quote from: SarDragon on May 20, 2011, 11:53:31 PM

Quote from: Littleguy on May 20, 2011, 09:26:58 PM
Reason why I suggest a flight suit is that is a very practical uniform. Alot of pockets, waist size adjustment, zipper, it exsist within regulations, one color, and it is alot lighter. Also, a simple fix to sweat is under armor t-shirts, which are extremely popular from what I've heard. Lastly, it isn't in in a camouflage pattern, and could stop people from trying to purchase extremely expensive camouflage matching items.
Black BDU's wouldn't be much of a change because we'd still have to add it into regulations, still would have to wear a reflective vest, and black isn't a good night color, either.

[Grammar Cop] First of all, it's "a lot", two words. [/Grammar Cop]

Actually flight  suits are NOT as practical as you think. Lighter does not necessarily mean better. In many cases, its lightness is a handicap. Real Nomex flight suits are expensive, and there is no need for that fire resistant feature in GT work. Availability can be an issue. Also, the fabric is more fragile than you think it is. As stated above, it snags easily, and sewing Nomex isn't the most fun stuff around.

Since you didn't catch my hint about one-piece garments, I'll be direct. Bathroom breaks are inconvenient and annoying at best, in any environment, and in the field present even greater challenges.

All of the down sides, IMHO, greatly outweigh any potential advantages.

Now that you say that, espically the bathroom thing, it may not be has good has I thought. I mean, unless you wore it backwards . Just joking.
In all seriousness, what you said, now that I think of it, yeah, it could be very impractical.

How about instead of endlessly debating what uniform would be most appropriate, comfortable, affordable, etc., we just go with what we have(Sorry, Left Coast, your stuck with the CA GTU) and go and get to know these other SAR teams before we show up cold at a mission base saying, "Hi. I'm from Civil Air Patrol and we're here to help." We in CAP sometimes seem to be as parochial as we accuse these other agencies of being. Sitting down for coffee or a lunch somewhere can solve a lot of these "turf battles". If you can get them familiar with your capabilities, your professionalism, and your congeniality, they really won't care what you wear as long as it isn't totally inappropriate for the terrain/climate and they may understand why we are wearing what we do.

Quote from: ol'fido on May 21, 2011, 01:25:25 AM
How about instead of endlessly debating what uniform would be most appropriate, comfortable, affordable, etc., we just go with what we have(Sorry, Left Coast, your stuck with the CA GTU) and go and get to know these other SAR teams before we show up cold at a mission base saying, "Hi. I'm from Civil Air Patrol and we're here to help." We in CAP sometimes seem to be as parochial as we accuse these other agencies of being. Sitting down for coffee or a lunch somewhere can solve a lot of these "turf battles". If you can get them familiar with your capabilities, your professionalism, and your congeniality, they really won't care what you wear as long as it isn't totally inappropriate for the terrain/climate and they may understand why we are wearing what we do.

I have to agree with you completely. I mean yes, no matter the situation, we are not here to take over. We are just another asset for them (like a non-profit org for Canine SAR, or the red cross). I wonder if maybe that is there confusion???

^ and ^^, Exactly. Thats why I'm convinced the BDU is being used as a scapegoat bluff call. There are other issues, not withstanding "they're free and we cost", (job security), but if they pick something not likely to change and keep 'us' dwelling on it, thats more for 'them'.

Show up, under estimate and over-deliver.  Make 'em go "wow, these people know what they are doing", put the egg back on their face.

Three years ago, a big, big effort was made in a proposal to the National Board to authorize and permit a shorts and t-shirt uniform for hot summer flying.

Similar to glider ops and NESA MAS.

The proposal was SHOUTED DOWN by many, and that included the NMWG Wing Commander.

They said they had no trouble with the heat, and it was more important to look military.

When the proposal was voted and did not carry, they applauded.

DG
Seasoned Member

Posts: 492

    New Summer Flight Uniform
« on: July 25, 2008, 07:45:22 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank You to our National Leaders who are doing some great work, in respect to caring for our aircrews flying in the summer heat.       

If things go well at the National Board, we may be authorized to wear a New Summer Flight Uniform.

Blue golf shirt and khaki shorts.  White socks and white tennis shoes.

This is great news.  It was only last week that I had to accompany my copilot to the ER when he became ill while on a mission in the GA-8 with a temperature dew point of 35 / 33.

Talk to your Wing CC and Region CC and express your request for their support in approving this change at the National Board Meeting and Conference in Florida.   

Go to and check out this thread, over 6 pages:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5613.0

My phone says this one has 16.....

Quote from: Abdomina on May 23, 2011, 03:30:35 AM
My phone says this one has 16.....

The number of pages you see in the counter depends on your browser and forum settings.

If you go to Profile | Look and Layout , you'll see settings for Topics to display per page, and Messages to display per page. I don't recall the default settings, but I have mine set for 50 and 25, respectively.