My Squadron has just purchased a TIGERSTRIKE DF Unit. It is made by a couple of CAWG CAP members. We should have deliver of it soon. Ill let you know how it works. From the info I have read and the people I have talked to, it takes a lot of the work out of DF'ing the the Lper requires.
I dont work for the company, I am a customer. So this isnt a sales ad.
Got a link?
Maybe this? Firestorm Emergency Services Ltd (http://www.fsems.com/)
I'm interested in seeing if it works as well as they advertise. I didn't see anything about the price.
It really bugs me when a company has a website set up to sell something and they don't even list the price. So what's this thing cost?
they are very, very new. Give them a little time.
there are lots of us who are very excited about this product
Quote from: isuhawkeye on February 25, 2009, 01:24:29 AM
they are very, very new. Give them a little time.
there are lots of us who are very excited about this product
They aren't the only ones. I was researching the "cheese block DF company's" practice beacon and they don't list a price either.
Please post a price, when available.
I would sincerely appreciate a scanned copy of their manual, as well. You can tell a lot about a company by the quality of the literature they provide.
By cheese-block-company, isuhawkeye, do you mean Pointer? I think their price is still $156.00 postpaid. Give them a call and they're really great to work with. Believe it or not, there ARE still family-run electronics companies out there.
I've been well-impressed with the "new" Little L-Pers, and generally they can't be beat for the money. They're not as sensitive as the LH-16 (older) model, but they work pretty darn well and are pretty rugged.
I'm not the one who referenced the "cheese-block company". I don't have any personal experience with the new L-Per.
Hopefully someone will bring a Tigerstrike to NESA this year and we can do a pseudo-scientific side-by-side test.
Sorry, ISU! :D
No biggy.
I would love to see a side by side comparison of the products.
Base unit is $2000.00. Each set of antennas (for different frequencies) costs an additional $300.00.
Looks nifty, but seems a trifle overloaded with features; it can use an on-board cellular radio to allow another party to see the signal strength and bearing you're pointed at -- why?!
I'm sticking with my $350.00 soup-to-nuts Sniffer setup.
think outside the CAP box. Some features may not be appropriate for your use, but may be indispensable to others.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on February 25, 2009, 03:35:08 AM
think outside the CAP box. Some features may not be appropriate for your use, but may be indispensable to others.
Undoubtedly, but on this forum I tend to think
inside the CAP box. Can't see why a UDF team would need it.
Hmm, dollars-to-capabilities, the Tigerstrike is going to have be an outstanding performer to win against the Little L-Per. It DOES sound like it is a capable little unit, though.
The new Little L-Per has solid performance, 30+ years of the company in business with experience in ELTs, and a $750 price tag where I can almost get THREE DFs for the price of one Tigerstrike.
Did anyone try the Seimac ProFind DF? $1500 for a unit that wasn't very capable, sensitive, or accurate. I'd hate to see that mistake repeated, but I'm very curious to see the results of the Tigerstrike tests!
Another thing I noticed -- the Tigerstrike appears to be fixed in horizontal polarization - which might not be the best idea with mostly vertical ELT antennas.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 25, 2009, 03:36:37 AM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on February 25, 2009, 03:35:08 AM
think outside the CAP box. Some features may not be appropriate for your use, but may be indispensable to others.
Undoubtedly, but on this forum I tend to think inside the CAP box. Can't see why a UDF team would need it.
How about 2 or 3 UDF/GTs deployed cause we don't have a SARSAT hit? Then some triangulation over a cell network could be pretty sweet!
Quote from: MikeD on February 25, 2009, 05:54:32 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 25, 2009, 03:36:37 AM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on February 25, 2009, 03:35:08 AM
think outside the CAP box. Some features may not be appropriate for your use, but may be indispensable to others.
Undoubtedly, but on this forum I tend to think inside the CAP box. Can't see why a UDF team would need it.
How about 2 or 3 UDF/GTs deployed cause we don't have a SARSAT hit? Then some triangulation over a cell network could be pretty sweet!
Hey, if you have $7000 to spare... When we don't have a SARSAT hit (aka only airborne reports), we are generally launching an aircraft anyway..
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 25, 2009, 03:33:44 AM
Base unit is $2000.00. Each set of antennas (for different frequencies) costs an additional $300.00.
Looks nifty, but seems a trifle overloaded with features; it can use an on-board cellular radio to allow another party to see the signal strength and bearing you're pointed at -- why?!
I'm sticking with my $350.00 soup-to-nuts Sniffer setup.
That's obscene. It was like pulling teeth to get a 30 year old LPer out of my wing. Looks like I'll never see one of those. The cheese block company I was referring to was Seimac I'm not interested in the DF because it's junk but the practice beacon looked handy because it's small.
My Squadron has both an LH-16 and a Seimac "Cheese Block". Not to bash Seimac, but I'll take the LH-16 over the Cheese Blockany day... The Seimac training beacon works great though.
The "Tiger Strike" people are not very, very, very new ..
They have been at this for several years now. Lots of promises, no results.
I'm glad we actually never put forth any loot 3+ years back. I hope you actually get something if you put money out. All we heard were excuses.
I'd rather have 2.5 cheese blocks or even 4-5 Little L'Per's from eBay for that $2K.
You can outfit a lot more people for that $2000 ..
Fact is, you can find ELT's with Little L'Per's too.
For the $2000 TigerStrike price, you could have 6 Sniffer setups with a nice beam antenna and a rooftop magmount for getting AOS. I haven't used the TigerStrike, but it would almost have to go out at 3am without me and find the ELT all by itself given those economics.
That being said, I'd be more than happy to test it and report back on how it fares compared to the other systems I've tested, if they would arrange for an evaluation.
BTW, the new L-Per (LL-16) is the "cheese block" - think Cheddar and look at it:
(http://www.ltronics.com/LL-16_Opened.jpg)
The Seimac? I call it the "NoFind", personally. Worst performer I've tried thus far.
Also, in looking at that site, it would appear that you need a separate item for 243 vs. 121.5 ..
Does that mean two units, put one down, pick up another one rather than just push a button or turn a knob?
Surely if they are "" this close, you would think they could post anything besides a Computer Generated image of the product. Come on, show us a currently working prototype, you would think after this much time something more than the original black one that looked like a square gun that we saw some years back, would exist.
..and their flash/animated demo. Pure marketing. If you take the whizbang $2K device and do your triangulation from the base of a mountain, it's not going to hear the signal either. Don't they teach us to use high points? Why does not the demo portray that? After all, they say they have a collective 65 years of experience or such.
But of course, later on - they are depicted on top of the terrain.
I can see why it's $2000 vs. $750 .. if it has a GPS and whatever it does to link it self to the Topo! series map .. but since it's all flash animation and marketing glitz, thats all we heard 3+ years ago, too.
Oh, and yes- I meant the new L-Per for my reference to Cheese Block.
The Seimac? Sounds like baby milk.
In a double bind test, conducted at the University of Cool SAR stuff, the Seimac tested marginally effective, just behind dowsing rods and ELT-sniffing pigs....
It looks like the Tigerstrike is a basic receiver with a 2 element Yagi and a lot of bells and whistles. As an electronics designer, I have to hold myself back all the time from designing Unix run, nuclear powered light switches. I think their idea is very cool, and a brilliant solution to a nonexistent problem.
FYI, I will be dumping a bunch of single channel DF units using this technology on E-bay soon, with an anticipated price point of less than $200.00......Maybe I need to add a couple of USB ports, and bluetooth enable them.
Major Lord
Oh, and if the Fresno Squadron is actually that close to taking delivery, from the sound of the message, then surely there should be actual product images, tests, etc. Instead, the web site content is all flash animation with pictures that are several years old mixed in.
Not that I pay that close attention, but I have not gotten any reference from the water cooler about any southern California missions where this is actually been used/tested, etc. Other than that of several years back.
Quote from: a2capt on February 25, 2009, 06:04:29 PM
Also, in looking at that site, it would appear that you need a separate item for 243 vs. 121.5 ..
Does that mean two units, put one down, pick up another one rather than just push a button or turn a knob?
No, you order a separate antenna assembly; when you switch antennas, the unit determines what frequency it should be working on. Each antenna is $300.00.
Hmmm.. doesn't say that on the site either. It surely implies the unit you buy does what it does and thats it.
OTOH, from a technical standpoint, that is what I would expect it to be, an antenna swap for down to detail readings.
..and for the price of two more antennas, 243 and 406 .. you can outfit yet another ground team with a cheese block or one, maybe two older L'Per's from an eBay fire sale.
Quote from: Major Lord on February 25, 2009, 06:05:15 PM
It looks like the Tigerstrike is a basic receiver with a 2 element Yagi and a lot of bells and whistles. As an electronics designer, I have to hold myself back all the time from designing Unix run, nuclear powered light switches. I think their idea is very cool, and a brilliant solution to a nonexistent problem.
Precisely my take on it, but expressed much better. I do think that the horizontally polarized antenna is gonna hurt them, however. Incidentally, it's not a Yagi, it's an HB9CV (http://www.mydarc.de/dk7zb/HB9CV/Details-HB9CV.htm).
Quote from: a2capt on February 25, 2009, 06:34:41 PM
Hmmm.. doesn't say that on the site either. It surely implies the unit you buy does what it does and thats it.
OTOH, from a technical standpoint, that is what I would expect it to be, an antenna swap for down to detail readings.
I spoke to the president of the company who gave me the details, including the pricing.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 25, 2009, 06:38:47 PM
I spoke to the president of the company who gave me the details, including the pricing.
See, exactly the kind of things that should be on a web site. not a bunch of flash animation and frivolously thought out sequences.
"Need more capability? Your investment is expandable, for only $300 you can add 243 capability."
I still say that if they are implying they are this close to shipping, there ought to be real information on the site. L-tronics had real information for quite some time before.
Especially when they have to know their price point is 2.5 times that of the well known competitor.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 25, 2009, 06:35:17 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on February 25, 2009, 06:05:15 PM
It looks like the Tigerstrike is a basic receiver with a 2 element Yagi and a lot of bells and whistles. As an electronics designer, I have to hold myself back all the time from designing Unix run, nuclear powered light switches. I think their idea is very cool, and a brilliant solution to a nonexistent problem.
Precisely my take on it, but expressed much better. I do think that the horizontally polarized antenna is gonna hurt them, however. Incidentally, it's not a Yagi, it's an HB9CV (http://www.mydarc.de/dk7zb/HB9CV/Details-HB9CV.htm).
[wispers]Joe....read the site your posted....the HB9CV is a QuoteThe HB9CV-Beam is a 2-Element-Yagi with two driven elements and was introduced by Rudolf Baumgartner, HB9CV in the 1950ies
Emphasis mine. ;D
I would call it "Yagi-like", but whatever. :)
A hand held scanner from Radioshack and "body block" is all we really need, and use. It works (and has in over 100 South Texas ELT Missions), when we have people spread out over a huge area, having an abumdance of $700-2000 equipment is a bit impractical.
Im sorry, been off line for a couple days. The unit cost us about $2500.
$2500 for vaporware or $750 for a proven solid performer... Still, I have an open mind!
Does anybody know the names(s) of the guys behind this? If it's who I think it is (the guys from Sq 68, I believe), I'm pretty sure I saw an early version of this several years ago, as well as a car-mounted version of the computerized auto-triangulation thing--which struck me at the time as being the coolest thing ever.
Imagine being able to circumnavigate an area of interest in a a vehicle, triangulating the signal source with amazing accuracy, without ever having to stop and take a DF bearing? Come to think of it, that may have been a rooftop-mounted doppler DF setup like the Becker, I'm not sure. Like I said, it's been several years. But I do remember distinctly seeing a self-contained pistol-grip DF unit.
Bob Miller and Murray Craig.
Mustang --
The setup you are describing with the auto-triangulation is a doppler setup. Its typically constructed and used by "T-Hunters" (transmitter hunters). T-hunters are amateur radio operators who track down a hidden transmitter using a various host of equipment. Its similarities to hunting ELTs are obviously very strong.
To my knowledge, no doppler setups that include auto-triangulation are available for purchase. You CAN buy and construct kits of various versions. While it doesn't auto-TRIANGULATE, the Becker SAR-DF 517 that we have in about half of our CAP aircraft operates on a doppler principle. That said, some experts say that a doppler setup is inappropriate for ELT searches. I don't have the knowledge to comment on that.
There is an excellent reference about amateur radio T-Hunting. The book is: http://www.amazon.com/Transmitter-Hunting-Direction-Finding-Simplified/dp/0830627014/ref=cm_sw_em_r_dp_title_featured?ie=UTF8&tag=tellafriend-20
and its companion website is:
http://www.homingin.com/
I hope this helps.
Is Murray Craig the Canadian guy with the SAR dogs? He had a unit at National in St. Louis a few years ago that was going into production. It was similar to the Seimac in configuartion and performance. We went out and played with it under the St Louis Arch in Service dress in 100 degree heat and 80% humidity.
Doppler is very cool, and easy to work big signals with. There are software packages that do auto triangulation and mapping, some in the hands of Uncle Sam , and some in the hands of Ham Fox hunters. The civilian ones I have seen use a persistant bearing axial drawn on the PC screen as you drive your vehicle (hopefully) around your target) Doppler systems are not well suited for the weak-signal Direction finding, since the losses in the multiple switched antenna systems are very pronounced.
Major Lord
You must have me mistaken with someone else, I don't recall the St Louis incident, as for some of the speculation on this blog I am surprised at some of the comments.
Yes I started to develop this back in 2004, didn't take any orders, showed it but was stymied by finding the right RF house, after 3 attempts to move to a surface mount technology and software programmable receiver, how 21 century, we achieved a exceptional design with a RF house in Phoenix,and are currently starting field trials with a real definable test plan that compares the technology range and usability aspects for a variety of CAP ES missions.
Any of the CAP members who saw how fabulously it worked at NBB in 2004-2006 can attest to the superior sensitivity and ease of use of the older version.
As for A2pilot, I don't recall you ever testing it? When did you say you did?
Well we will be positing real pics of the first units later today, sorry we have been moving to make this unit available to support the new weaker beacons of the 406 type, only 25 milliwatts....not 100 mw
Look for more results as we progress, we are currently in San Diego on field trials.
Allrighty then, it was probably someone else. I look forward to seeing your unit, and I will keep an open mind on the concept behind the product...innovation is always good: even if its not the final answer, trying to make things better is always wise.
Major Lord
p.s., Personally, I loved the animations!
Afternoon
Well we have just got back from an independent RF Lab who builds for the UAV program. We have tested the Tigerstirke and ELPER new and old and found that the sensitivity is about -120 dbm for the Elpers (on receive only, less on the df mode) and the Tigerstrike equals the ELPERs without all the tuning yet to be done on the antenna array, so we expect to be in the -125 dbm range.
Perhaps a little explanation of the philosophy would be in order, and why this is a pricey unit.
First I have had the privilege of doing ES all over the nation, and there are so a great deal of regional differences, hence the full function of the TigerStrike.
The two biggest differences in the TigerStrike that has been overlooked in this series of blogs is the 3 AXIS DIGITAL COMPASS and built in Delorme HI Accuracy GPS chip.
As I have trained for 3 years at Blue beret I have seem the diverse training levels of out CAP ES folks, very few ever get to go to NESA, so the regional training and expectation are so different.
Therefore anything that creates a consistant reporting tool for the Ground teams and DF teams has to be valued differently than RDF unit.
The Digital Compass is an outstanding feature that is accurate to .1 degrees. Compare that to any handheld compass and the error rate of a manual interpretation of the needle. And no device except the TigerStrike has an angle plus or minus .1 degree from your current location hence the GPS.
All these features are designed to create a consistant and incredibly accurate tool to assist in the location of the beacon.
Well enough for now, it is so exciting and rewarding to see it come together.
I can't wait to see it in action! I've not kept it a secret that I'm impressed with the overall performance of the Little L-Per, but that's not to say its the end-all-be-all!
Reference to the UAV program, though, doesn't get me excited. :D
I'm all for moving forward with technology; I'm hopeful for that next quantum leap!
I suppose I would really hesitate about putting any time or money into developing a new DF unit. With the demise of 121.5 monitoring, the need for relatively long-range DFing from the ground is going to diminsh significantly.
Whereas it was relatively common to just send out a GT to work an ELT signal under the old system, even given the large search areas, I don't think that will be the case from now on. We will either be given a pretty accurate 406 location or for the 121.5 signal missions we do get we will almost by definition have to send a plane out to narrow down the search area. In either case your GT will probably only have to deal with short-range searches. Not that those are always easy, but as mentioned you don't really need anything too complicated for many of them.
Leaving aside the long-range/short range discussion, the sheer drop in volume of ELT missions that CAP will be handling will mean that the demand for such a product is likely to be minimal. Sure, over time the ancient L-Pers are going to need to be replaced so there will always be a certain amount of potential customers at any one time, but I just don't see how a workable business model could be developed.
But, then again, I switched my major from business to something else pretty quickly...
I'm really trying to be objective here but am having difficulty understanding exactly what problems are being actually encountered in the field that are solved by these features. Can you please elaborate?
Quote from: ES forever! on March 02, 2009, 01:27:20 AM
the sensitivity is about -120 dbm for the Elpers (on receive only, less on the df mode) and the Tigerstrike equals the ELPERs without all the tuning yet to be done on the antenna array, so we expect to be in the -125 dbm range.
Quote from: ES forever! on March 02, 2009, 01:27:20 AM
The Digital Compass is an outstanding feature that is accurate to .1 degrees. Compare that to any handheld compass and the error rate of a manual interpretation of the needle.
...And if you could elaborate on the reason for having the cellular "phone home" feature as well, that would be greatly appreciated.
Why should a CAP unit spend the extra money instead of an L-Per or a Sniffer? For the price of the Tigerstrike, one could have about 10 Sniffer setups. I really don't understand the benefit I'd be receiving by spending 10x the money.
This is great. CAPTalk at its finest. The customer (me) is the only person not complaining.
Robert, ahh, I thought you said the Squadron was making the purchase, I did not realize it was a personal purchase with private funds. My mistake. I will be delighted to hear that you have received your unit and are happy with it.
Major Lord
This is getting silly. My Sq. purchased it at my authorization as the Sq.CC. There are private members in CAWG who have purchased this unit. But its not up to me to identify them. I only submitted the order less than 2 weeks ago.
What is with some of you people. FlyingPig was trying to share some information with us about a new and possibly better df unit, which his squadron chose to purchase with their funds, and all you guys can do is start a witch hunt.
Give FlyingPig time and he will test the unit and give you more information. If there is a problem, I know him, and he will let us know that too. I also know Lt.Col Miller and I can assure you he has only the best interest of CAP at heart.
So lets quit the mud throwing please.
I second MAJ Hough
We got some good folks out there testing newer equipment
YEP CAPe'ers "enuf" of yer mudslingin'
CAPer techno geeks........get working.... like these folks are AND then I MIGHT believe in this forum!!!!!
Critical examination should / could have been done years ago when CAP knew that 406 was coming down the pike.... that was approximately 8 years ago. That in itself probably was enough CAP needed and then if CAP was capable, should have started the RFP process for newer and updated equipment.
I find that the true folks that are serious about SAR and CAP's capability still are at the Sqdn level and are pretty prudent about CAP funds.
Now is the time to back these folks and I am positive that FP and his folks will keep us aware of their findings... no use in them tipping their hand......
NOW begs the question, after all the R &D gets done, NATL HQ needs to put these folks on the training syllabus brigade and MAYBE needs to look at putting a contact team out teaching this stuff and NO chirping about volunteer time!!! The only volunteers that need the time off are Flying Pig and his merry band of gentlemen!!!
This is the stuff that is more important than 89 volumes of the "regulation" 39-1
While I believe I've advocated that CAP do some better testing on such equipment, given the reservations I expressed earlier in this thread, I can't get too excited about a need for CAP to do a lot of work testing a new generation of these things.
And just because the 406 is going to be standard, why is there a need to get new equipment for it? I'm not a techno geek on this stuff, but as long as a 121.5 signal is transmitting, what do we really need new stuff for?
By the way helio, we have been equiping our planes with the Becker system which is really quite fine, so its not like we've been totally static. So long as the old baby blue L-per works, it will get the job done on the ground.
WARNING: This thread got way off track into a series of personal attacks, which have been removed. As a reminder, personal attacks are a violation of the Membership Code of Conduct.
Please feel free to continue with an academic discussion of this item.
thank you for your professional approach to this.
Quote from: heliodoc on March 03, 2009, 02:46:50 AM
Critical examination should / could have been done years ago when CAP knew that 406 was coming down the pike.... that was approximately 8 years ago. That in itself probably was enough CAP needed and then if CAP was capable, should have started the RFP process for newer and updated equipment.
Actually, no new equipment is needed. 406s either have GPS-based lat/long reported or have such good Doppler-based merges that DFing the 406 signal is pretty moot. We are doing "last mile" homing on the 121.5 transmitter that they all have jast as we have been doing all along with 121.5 only ELTs.
The real question is: Is there something better than the L-Per that units can switch to as they either replace old/dead units or add new equipment? That's where the Tigerstrike, Sniffer, and other units come into play.
I've been convinced both from a theoretical and practical standpoint that the Sniffer is the way to go from a price/performance perspective. That said, I'd be willing to evaluate the Tigerstrike, but I still haven't been convinced that whatever performance it brings to the table (and I'm still waiting on answers from a few posts up) is worth the substantial cost.
Quote from: heliodoc on March 03, 2009, 02:46:50 AM
NOW begs the question, after all the R &D gets done, NATL HQ needs to put these folks on the training syllabus brigade and MAYBE needs to look at putting a contact team out teaching this stuff and NO chirping about volunteer time!!!
I'm actually giving the initial presentation of an updated UDF Powerpoint that I've come up with this evening for one of my Squadrons. It will cover UDF from a theory perspective, a mission perspective (what you actually need to do on a mission from the alert through the 108), and an equipment perspective, covering the L-Per, Pro-Find, and the Sniffer.
I never said I tested it, however .. you were at our unit a couple times with it, there were a few missions in the southwestern Riverside county area about that time, too- and we "committed" to one and never heard a word back. Turned into vaporware.
Meanwhile L-Tronics was rumored to be making a new age device as well, and about the most different thing was theirs did come out.
My memory seems to recall opinions of the Tiger Strike back then about the same kind of opinions I was hearing on the new L-Per.
the die hards swear by the sticks, the new people swear at the sticks.
So since this obviously is not the same unit that was around the area in 2005 or so, and is rather something different, real reviews would be nice to see.. Has anything other than animated frames been posted?
It's purported that several people have them, are these the current units or the remainder of 2005?
That would imply that something was available to actually photograph and put up realistic product information on the site.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 03, 2009, 05:42:12 PMI'm actually giving the initial presentation of an updated UDF Powerpoint that I've come up with this evening for one of my Squadrons. It will cover UDF from a theory perspective, a mission perspective (what you actually need to do on a mission from the alert through the 108), and an equipment perspective, covering the L-Per, Pro-Find, and the Sniffer.
Can you send me a copy of that Joe?
Perhaps I can shed some light on some of the topics here.
1. The number of ELT's will not change, just the method of tracking them down.
2. 406 Doppler accuracy is no better than the old SARSAT.
3. Most airplane owners in the US will not install 406.
4. Unless the gps in the aircraft or the 406 has a gps all we know is a suspected location.
5. The 406 beacon still is tracked on 121.5 however now at a much lower power, therefore the need for more sensitive receiver and accurate direction capability. (Try your MAG compass at night in the rain oops don't forget variation correction) And make sure you know where your at on that map.
6. This unit has a lot of options that you might not need in FL, (you can see from Tampa to Miami) but for those guys who live in the mountains, being able to send the data back to the IC might be a good idea.)
I have one of these units the company has given me to test, I will be going out to as many California units as I can to let them play with it and tell me how they like it.
Do you have a photo of the Tigerstrike unit?
Major Lord
http://www.fsems.com/fsproducts.html
I could only find the animation. Is there a link to a photo? I know that Murray Craig said he would be posting them a couple of days ago, but I can't find them. Is there another link?
Major Lord
I have photos of it that were sent to me after I purchased it. But given the down right abusive responses to this simple topic, I will let the company post their own photos photos if they choose. Sorry.
Quote from: resq55 on March 06, 2009, 07:10:31 PM
5. The 406 beacon still is tracked on 121.5 however now at a much lower power, therefore the need for more sensitive receiver and accurate direction capability. (Try your MAG compass at night in the rain oops don't forget variation correction) And make sure you know where your at on that map.
I believe JoeT has posted several times evidence that the 121.5 transmissions from the new ELTs are actually not at a lower power.
This site is funny now. Its great when people post with no knowledge of who they are responding to. :clap: I think Ill just sit back and watch for a while.
Hello everyone. I'm Jim Henson, the SouthEastern Rep for FireStorm Emergency Services. I was told there was a lot of interest in the TigerStrike here, so I came to see. I see people want to get a look at it, so here you go, a few pics of it for you.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/lurchmonster/DSC04626b.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/lurchmonster/DSC04629.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/lurchmonster/DSC04632.jpg)
That's Lt. Col. Ron Butts playing with the TigerStrike in the pics. You can look him up and give him a call and ask him his impressions of it if you wish, he's said he'd be more than happy to talk about it.
Anything any of you want to know, feel free to ask, I'll do my best to answer. You can even give me a call, number is on the website, I'm extension 709.
BTW, Lt. Col. Butts will have a TigerStrike at Sq. 121, Bakersfield Airport in Bakersfield, CA Saturday morning sometime, drop by if you want to see it in person.
Awesome! Looks good!
Major Lord
Mr. Hensen,
Perhaps you can address the cost?
I'm sorry but $2000 is simply beyond the reach of most CAP units who would need to self-fund the device.
"Better" or not, I could personally not endorse such an expense when similar, proven, devices can be purchased for about 1/3 that price.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 07, 2009, 04:59:20 AM
"Better" or not, I could personally not endorse such an expense when similar, proven, devices can be purchased for about 1/3 that price.
Or 1/10th, for that matter. I would need some major-league convincing.
Surely Eclipse.
Firstly, it's an intergrated system. Built in is the GPS and digital compass, extra equipment with other devices. It also includes a cell link back to your mission base from the device itself, as well as integration with the Delorme Topo mapping software on your laptop. Basically, you get an "I win" button on the device...when it locates the ELT, you hit the button, it calls mission base and informs them of your location and the ELTs location, then plots you the route from your location to the ELT on the mapping software. It all comes down to time-to-rescue. You can do it faster with this device. Faster means more lives saved. Faster means less cost to you per rescue. Faster means better. Period.
Secondly, if you are overly concerned with the cost, our company has contracted a professional grant writer, and are drawing up grant proposals to make the cost to you be...well...zero. We're also trying to work with large corporations to help get funding for squadrons and other rescue organizations, because the more of these we can get in the hands of the rescuers, the more lives we can save, faster. Is zero cost to you too costly? I should hope not.
Comparing our device to what's currently on the market is like comparing a PC XT (the other devices currently on the market) with a modern day computer running at 3ghz with 8gig of ram and several terabyte hard drives. There's not really much grounds for comparison. We simply do more, faster, and better. We think this is simply the way things should be. So far, everyone that's gotten to play with one seems to agree.
Finally, our device takes a lot of the "art" out of RDF, and makes it more of a push-button operation. There are a lot of people out there that have been doing this for 30 years that can take a receiver and sweep around them getting a bearing and finding the ELT. Rescue done. Good for them. But...it takes them awhile. As good as they are, there's still lots of time on the ground triangulating and sniffing it out. Our device can often get it in one hit, push-button simple. No art, just a rescue. In less time. Faster is better when you are hunting for hurt people that need you NOW. We can do that.
Hope that helps.
Oh, and JoeTomasone, see above about the cost.
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 07, 2009, 05:53:20 AM
Oh, and JoeTomasone, see above about the cost.
Noted. Is there a unit in SER anywhere that can be evaluated?
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 07, 2009, 06:15:59 AM
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 07, 2009, 05:53:20 AM
Oh, and JoeTomasone, see above about the cost.
Noted. Is there a unit in SER anywhere that can be evaluated?
Not as of yet, we're working on rolling them out as quickly as we can, but thus far California is where all the attention is. I'm just opening up the SER myself right now.
Just checked, current projection is 3 weeks. I'm working on lining up something for a Florida presentation now.
Few more shots, for those that might be interested. One of a few being put together, and two of the unit on a testing day.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/lurchmonster/TS7.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/lurchmonster/TS6.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/lurchmonster/TS1.jpg)
I'll be in and out of the office on Monday, but anyone wanting to give a call, go right ahead. Remember, I am ext. 709, phone number is on the website. Leave me a voicemail and I will call back if you don't get me.
In addition to the demo in Bakersfield, there were two more. One in another California location, and one up in Canada. I am hoping someone took a camera with them and shot a few pics. If so, might have some more if anyone is interested...or still thinks these things are vaporware.
Hey, how did the demo go in Bakersfield? We never heard an AAR!
Major Lord
I made an error, sorry...was just informed about it by the company. The demo is tomorrow, not that past Saturday. It's at the Evaluated SAREX at the Bakersfield Airport, hopefully some of you will be there and will get a look at it. Anyone that does, please, by all means, come back in and let us all know what you thought of it.
MS wing has a practice SAR Eval in 2 weeks and a SAR Eval coing up in April, if you'd like to let us borrow one for evaluation, let me know.
Quote from: Al Sayre on March 15, 2009, 04:08:44 AM
MS wing has a practice SAR Eval in 2 weeks and a SAR Eval coing up in April, if you'd like to let us borrow one for evaluation, let me know.
I'm guessing that's Mississippi? Give me some specifics (either here or in email) and I will try and see if someone from the company can fly out with one and demo it for you. Might not be the one in March, but the April might be possible.
email sent
Al,
It will interesting to hear the feedback of the independanr CAP people who saw the unit in Bakersfield this weekend. The compass, bluetooth mapping, cellphone uplink, etc. are very different from what CAP has dealt with so far.
Major Lord
Alan, email received and replied to. If you don't get it shortly, look in your junk mail folder.
Major Lord, looks like Evals aren't the best place to show off these things, from what I hear some people got to look at it and play with it, but it was almost a distraction from the Eval. If anyone was at Bakersfield and got a look at it though, please feel free to comment, be nice if someone besides me was talking about it. ;)
Gee.....my unit was on stand by for 2 days and never even got tasked for the SAREX. We thought we would EVENTUALLY come down to Bakersfield, but never got called. Hey, CAWG SAREX staff......thanks for letting us sit around and clear our three day weekends for nothing. I had members take vacation from work or reschedule business commitments just to be available. Hey, I have an idea, next time, if your not going to use us, dont put us on stand by!
Thanks, they appreciated their long weekend. ::)
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 16, 2009, 01:05:54 AM
Gee.....my unit was on stand by for 2 days and never even got tasked for the SAREX. We thought we would EVENTUALLY come down to Bakersfield, but never got called. Hey, CAWG SAREX staff......thanks for letting us sit around and clear our three day weekends for nothing. I had members take vacation from work or reschedule business commitments just to be available. Hey, I have an idea, next time, if your not going to use us, dont put us on stand by!
Thanks, they appreciated their long weekend. ::)
This is why you shouldn't post while upset...
This should have been an e-mail to the CAWG/DO.
Believe me. Not upset. Disappointed. And I did. Why, is it some sort of secret or something?
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 16, 2009, 02:42:49 AM
Believe me. Not upset. Disappointed. And I did. Why, is it some sort of secret or something?
Something about not airing our dirty laundry in public?
But what do I know...
There are so many people airing CA{'s dirty laundry this sight really doesn't need to worry
So, did anyone get a chance to see the demo? How did it go?
If it truly works as advertised (get a signal, and it plots the location for you on a GPS), this would be worth the legwork of a grant process.
I'd like to know if anyone got a look at it too... Like to hear some opinions from someone outside the company that's seen it.
Quote from: cnitas on March 16, 2009, 01:51:06 PM
this would be worth the legwork of a grant process.
Actually, the company does the legwork for you. We've already engaged the grant writer and have grant proposals written up.
Have you seen the unit in action? Have you field tested it? How did it go?
Actually, I got one of them this week. I haven't gotten to test it yet, but if I have time this coming week I'd like to get up with the local CAP and see if they can let me test it out. If I don't get the chance to, I will be at Hawkins Field in Jackson, MS. on Saturday the 28th for the practice SAR Eval. Should be getting there between 8 - 9am. Unfortunately that means I have to get up about 2:30am (about the time I usually go to bed) and start driving. I'm trying to get one of the guys from California to fly out too, so there will be someone with hands-on experience with it there, but even if it's just me, the device is relatively simple to use, even for me. ;)
I did show it off to a meeting of amateur radio operators the day I got it, and they were rather impressed with it, even without a transmitter to go hunting for. The assistant coordinator for the Alabama EMA was there as well, and expressed an interest in it, and even more so when he found out there would be different versions for different uses, including the one on 216 for use with Project Lifesaver.
Instead of filling up this thread with pictures, I'll probably just post further ones to the TigerStrike blog from now on, unless someone specifically requests something. The blog is at http://firestormts.blogspot.com/ (http://firestormts.blogspot.com/) in case anyone was interested. There's not much there at the moment, but I will be adding something at some point today mentioning the Mississippi trip, and of course anything else that comes up and is worth mentioning.
They don't ship with a practice beacon?
No, why would they? Most CAP will already have, or have access to, PELTs, and tossing one in the box will just raise the price of the unit for no reason at all.
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 21, 2009, 06:39:25 PM
No, why would they? Most CAP will already have, or have access to, PELTs, and tossing one in the box will just raise the price of the unit for no reason at all.
There are plenty of units that don't have an L-Per, too many, actually, so without providing a practice beacon there's no way to even test it when you get it.
You guys have got to be kidding on a $2k unit that doesn't include a beacon.
The L-Per is not a beacon, and does not ship with a beacon. As I understand it, with the wide variety of SAR devices out there, only one provides a practice beacon. We've done our best to keep the price of the TigerStrike down as low as we can get it, but with everything it does, there's a limit to what you can do. The next comparable digital compass chip, the Honeywell one used by the military, costs $2000 by itself, just for the chip, not for any of the hardware to make use of it. Then we add in GPS, cellular communications to rescue base, and bluetooth linking (all in SMT to keep it all small) to the laptop with the topo software running on it so it can automatically plot your location, the ELT's location, AND the best route over the terrain to reach the ELT, all for just the $2000 you would have to pay for the digital compass chip to begin building one of your own. I think we're doing a pretty good job of keeping the price down. Then, of course, you have to remember we're also providing you with a grant proposal, all you have to do is provide us with the info, we fill in the slots, it gets submitted, and BAM, you can have a TigerStrike for free... Remember also, that $2000 is the CAP price. We're slicing 1/5 right off the top with the price to CAP. So, not only do we cut the price even more, we help you get it for free if you can't afford it.
Was on the phone with one of the tech guys when I read your message. His suggestion was that you go out and buy yourself a digital compass with a .1 degree accuracy, a GPS unit better than most you can buy commercially (that much I know myself, last GPS I owned couldn't get a lock inside the building I am in, the TigerStrike locked on as soon as I turned it on sitting at my desk), a cellphone, a bluetooth adapter, some directional antennas, and a roll of duct tape. Pile everything up together in a big pile and start wrapping it with the duct tape. Then figure out how to get it all to talk to each other AND to talk to your laptop and plot the map for you to the ELT. IF you can manage that, you're within 50% of what we can do in a tiny little package the size of the tricorder on the original series of Star Trek. I imagine your duct taped pile is a little bigger than that...
You can always request your group or wing to provide you with a PELT, I understand they're relatively easy to get that way. Then there's always converting old ELTs to PELTs by changing out the crystals. I am sure you can find out how to do that by looking it up on the internet if you're in a pinch.
Look, if you just want to find fault, I am sure you can. You can find fault with ANYTHING if you want to. But this company is bending over backwards trying to get the TigerStrike out there because we honestly believe it will save lives, faster, and better, with less training, than anything available today. Period. I can stick a TigerStrike into the hand of any reasonably intelligent person that has any experience with RDF and knows how to push buttons and they can be using the TigerStrike to locate a signal within minutes. I did that with a few ham radio operators a couple of days ago and didn't have to say a word, they just looked at the controls and figured it out by seeing what was on the display screen.
This device will save lives. Period. And price shouldn't begin to be an issue when it's possible to get it for FREE...
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 21, 2009, 10:09:35 PM
Was on the phone with one of the tech guys when I read your message. His suggestion was that you go out and buy yourself a digital compass with a .1 degree accuracy, a GPS unit better than most you can buy commercially (that much I know myself, last GPS I owned couldn't get a lock inside the building I am in, the TigerStrike locked on as soon as I turned it on sitting at my desk), a cellphone, a bluetooth adapter, some directional antennas, and a roll of duct tape. Pile everything up together in a big pile and start wrapping it with the duct tape. Then figure out how to get it all to talk to each other AND to talk to your laptop and plot the map for you to the ELT. IF you can manage that, you're within 50% of what we can do in a tiny little package the size of the tricorder on the original series of Star Trek. I imagine your duct taped pile is a little bigger than that...
You really don't want to start down the road of trying to justify the cost here by comparing this to buying other, similar, retail devices - I have a 4-year old smartphone that does everything your device purports to do (minus the DF) which can be purchased today, along with a cheese-block L-Per, for under $1000. A 1-inch strip of velcro attaches it to the L-Per stick. It also has a full-color display and internet connectivity, so I don't
need to connect it to a laptop, though I easily could if necessary.
The further fallacy of the specs you provide is that CAP's universe generally operates within +/-5°, so the accuracy you purport is anecdotally interesting, but not of much real value to us. No one would argue that more accuracy is bad, just not necessary the way our operations run, and we scale our equipment accordingly.
Citing its potential use for other agencies does not mean much here, either. This is
CAPTalk, afterall.
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 21, 2009, 10:09:35 PM
This device will save lives. Period. And price shouldn't begin to be an issue when it's possible to get it for FREE...
Cost is always a factor, if you believe otherwise you don't understand how the world of ES works. As to the assertion that the average CAP unit can get these "free", well you can get whole buildings and airplanes free with the right grant and earmark, but those situations are few and far between.
Please feel free to list the units that have received one at zero cost or less than the average L-Per.
It is obvious you only wish to argue. I can not believe anyone involved in CAP at your level is this dense until it is intentional. I could be wrong though, I don't know you. You might really be...nevermind. I'll try to answer you, then I will get back to work trying to help people save lives.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2009, 10:33:15 PM
You really don't want to start down the road of trying to justify the cost here by comparing this to buying other, similar, retail devices
I'm sorry, I didn't think "free" needed justification...
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2009, 10:33:15 PM- I have a 4-year old smartphone that does everything your device purports to do (minus the DF) which can be purchased today, along with a cheese-block L-Per, for under $1000. A 1-inch strip of velcro attaches it to the L-Per stick. It also has a full-color display and internet connectivity, so I don't need to connect it to a laptop, though I easily could if necessary.
By all means then, I would be more than happy to see you accomplish a rescue in such a fashion. Oh, preferably before the pilot bleeds to death. I wasn't aware of any 4 year old smartphones that ran the DeLorme topo software, and plotted positions of you and the ELT, with route information. Amazing that you have one. Planning to distribute them to all the squadrons that desperately need the technology?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2009, 10:33:15 PMThe further fallacy of the specs you provide is that CAP's universe generally operates within +/-5°, so the accuracy you purport is anecdotally interesting, but not of much real value to us. No one would argue that more accuracy is bad, just not necessary the way our operations run, and we scale our equipment accordingly.
Fallacy? The specs are correct, Sir.
I suppose that you are saying that since CAP has always operated with a larger margin of error than we provide, it should continue to do so? No improvement? No increase in speed and efficiency? No more lives saved due to a better, faster, easier way to do things? Are you SERIOUSLY going to sit there and argue for more deaths? I should hope not.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2009, 10:33:15 PMCiting its potential use for other agencies does not mean much here, either. This is CAPTalk, afterall.
Now, Sir, you are merely picking nits. Lashing out since you know you are arguing merely for the sake of argument. Please stop. There are people out there truly interested in saving lives, and using a TigerStrike to do so. If you aren't interested, then realize that no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to take one. I would hate to think of you being forced to learn a better way of doing anything.
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 21, 2009, 10:09:35 PM
This device will save lives. Period. And price shouldn't begin to be an issue when it's possible to get it for FREE...
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2009, 10:33:15 PMCost is always a factor, if you believe otherwise you don't understand how the world of ES works. As to the assertion that the average CAP unit can get these "free", well you can get whole buildings and airplanes free with the right grant and earmark, but those situations are few and far between.
And we are working to make those situations less few and less far between. I also wish to thank you, because of your argumentative nature, I just received a call from someone interested in the grant, and we are starting him on the process towards getting a TigerStrike for his squadron...and yes...for free.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2009, 10:33:15 PMPlease feel free to list the units that have received one at zero cost or less than the average L-Per.
The above mentioned individual is the first one I have dealt with that needed a grant to obtain a TigerStrike. Most of the units sold have been in California, a place that apparently has enough money to be able to afford to buy them outright. In fact, I believe there have been more sales to individual CAP members than to squadrons so far. You know, people that are CAP members because they are interested in saving lives, faster, better, etc...not because they like to get on CAPtalk and insult and attack people.
Different strokes, I guess...
I know plenty of people who would pay that much for a unit like that. If I had enough cash right now I would be one of them. Looks like a good product to me.
Thank you, and I agree about the duct tape.
I believe Eclipse is just looking to pick a fight. I'd rather not, myself.
Jim,
Your prediction for going into production mentioned a three week time frame, so these should be out next week? Can you get us in touch with any of the CA purchasers you mentioned so that we can take a look at the units? I agree that you are not obligated to produce training beacons; People can obtain these from a variety of sources, and the regulatory problems and FCC approval process makes it a non-starter.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on March 22, 2009, 12:20:53 AM
Your prediction for going into production mentioned a three week time frame, so these should be out next week? Can you get us in touch with any of the CA purchasers you mentioned so that we can take a look at the units? I agree that you are not obligated to produce training beacons; People can obtain these from a variety of sources, and the regulatory problems and FCC approval process makes it a non-starter.
The only one I know off the top of my head is Lt. Col Ron Butts. I KNOW he has one, because he's the guy in the pics playing with it. And he's said he'd be more than happy to talk to anyone about it. So, look him up in your directory or online and give him a call and bend his ear all you want. Remember though, I'm SE, not way out west, so I have to ask someone to find out who all has bought one out there, and unlike me the California guys aren't working today. ;)
If you don't want to fight, then do what your counterparts in California have done.
They stopped posting here...
I specifically removed my post because I realized that this is going nowhere. You chose to rebut a post that was removed.
As Hall said, if you aren't interested in a "fight" debate, this is the wrong place to spend your time, and if you choose to engage people here, a less condescending, personally insulting, attitude will probably sell more product.
My comments were specific to the product, the cost, and the need. At no point did I question your experience, abilities, or deem it necessary to pontificate about what you or CAP is supposed to do.
Quote from: PHall on March 22, 2009, 04:20:22 AM
If you don't want to fight, then do what your counterparts in California have done.
They stopped posting here...
Ah, so I get it, I am not welcome here unless I am willing to fight? I must have misunderstood the purpose of the forums, I thought it was for the open exchange of information and ideas. I came here to answer questions people were asking about the product, in a thread someone else started dedicated to that product. The one other person connected to the company that was posting here did stop, yes, but only because I started, and was answering the questions better, and had the images to post when needed.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2009, 05:11:22 AM
I specifically removed my post because I realized that this is going nowhere. You chose to rebut a post that was removed.
It wasn't removed when I answered it, you removed it while I was responding.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2009, 05:11:22 AMAs Hall said, if you aren't interested in a "fight" debate, this is the wrong place to spend your time, and if you choose to engage people here, a less condescending, personally insulting, attitude will probably sell more product.
I respond in kind with what I am given. Ok, perhaps a little better, but you understand what I mean. And, believe it or not, I am not here to make sales, I am here to answer questions asked about the TigerStrike. The only place I am personally involved in making sales would be the SE region of the USA. That doesn't mean anyone outside my region can't ask questions, or call my extention, but I'm not here to sell to you. I am here to help, and before I was attacked (yes Bob, by you), I thought I was doing a pretty good job of it. As previously stated, I'd like to get back to that.
Oh, unless I am not welcome here because I don't want to fight... How about it CAPSGT? Should I leave because I would rather answer questions and discuss the subject of the thread instead of fighting?
Can we limit the conversation to the merits of the product/price point/etc? If the kindergarten nonsense doesn't cease the thread will likely be locked. End result? Less opportunity for the rest of us to learn from others' experience with the product, good or bad.
I have been trying to, wuzafuzz, but when attacked, I do hit back. Just because I don't LIKE to fight doesn't mean I don't know how to.
^ I think that was the idea I had. Since I started the thread, you'll notice a "fight" was not the intent. I stopped posting because there really was no more for me to say. Why don't we leave it to people who have used it or the people who know the specs and how to talk the talk. When we take delivery of the product, my guys and I will play with it and tell you all what we think. In the mean time.....keep asking TIGERSTRIKE questions.
Here is something you guys might find interesting. Firestorm - TIGERSTRIKE didn't come to us with a sales ad, my ES Officer went to them.
OK more news now that the coast is clear ........
1) After night trials we have added a rail to bottom of the antenna boom, and added an optional surefire light. makes it so much easier for dfing in airports.
2) The lobe on the antenna is better than we had expected, if you are 90 degrees to the signal, left or right the receiver is almost silent, sensitivity is looking more like -127DBM versus the -120 of the best of the old technology.
3) In trying to explain the need difference, remember the new 406 MHz all have 121.5, at 25 MW not 100 MW, and for those who need proof
see: http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/Documents/tDocs.htm Here you will discover a world of info on the 406/121.5 beacons
4) If it appears that I avoid answering some of the more pointed questions by a contributor, it is because he has started an IG complaint against me personally, so I can not respond to him.
5) Timing, we the company will not be driven or gauged on our technology by others, we are currently concluding field trials and adding back these minor changes to the product in to the first real production run.
6) ease of use issue is so appearant, handing the Tigerstrike to someone who has never DFed before and have them tell you where the signal is heading and angle, as well as where they are on the surface of the earth is duck soup. I am kinda quackers over this feature as we have all seen less experienced Lper teams struggle with the df unit and the stick. At this point we have demoed to over 85 people and the input has been great. This is not just a couple of us who think we are smarter, it is several years of showing and demoing the old unit and now the new unit which has evoked tremendous positive support. See the pilots have had all the kewl stuff, now we ground pounders have so kewl upgraded stuff too.
Well that is it from the Frozen north, the Canadians are playing with it at their sarex, eh... see if they can break it.. hoser
More pics later today
Quote from: ES forever! on March 22, 2009, 05:40:47 PM
4) If it appears that I avoid answering some of the more pointed questions by a contributor, it is because he has started an IG complaint against me personally, so I can not respond to him.
Just for the record, its not me. I have issues with the offering, but not on that level.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2009, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: ES forever! on March 22, 2009, 05:40:47 PM
4) If it appears that I avoid answering some of the more pointed questions by a contributor, it is because he has started an IG complaint against me personally, so I can not respond to him.
Just for the record, its not me. I have issues with the offering, but not on that level.
Oh we know who it is...
Quote from: PHall on March 22, 2009, 06:44:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2009, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: ES forever! on March 22, 2009, 05:40:47 PM
4) If it appears that I avoid answering some of the more pointed questions by a contributor, it is because he has started an IG complaint against me personally, so I can not respond to him.
Just for the record, its not me. I have issues with the offering, but not on that level.
Oh we know who it is...
Care to share? Or should I not even ask? I'm not CAP member remember, so what's an IG complaint?
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 22, 2009, 06:50:09 PMCare to share? Or should I not even ask? I'm not CAP member remember, so what's an IG complaint?
Probably best left unsaid. An IG complaint is a Complaint to the Inspector General. It usually does not bode well, if allegations are true. it's a serious step. I do not know what it is about, but it's best left untouched by those who do not know facts about the case. We are not a jury. . . . even though we act like it sometimes.
Ok then...TigerStrike anyone?
Let's see, something that hasn't been said yet...it uses AA batteries. 6 of them. 9volts. With a power plug on the bottom for external power.
Quote from: ES forever! on March 22, 2009, 05:40:47 PM
3) In trying to explain the need difference, remember the new 406 MHz all have 121.5, at 25 MW not 100 MW, and for those who need proof
see: http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/Documents/tDocs.htm Here you will discover a world of info on the 406/121.5 beacons
You're correct, there is a world of info, unfortunately it doesn't provide proof in support of your statement. The 25 mW (not MW) requirement is stated by many but is incorrect. This misinformation has been corrected before, but I'll do it again for your benefit.
The Cospas-Sarsat program does not require 406 MHz beacons to have a 121.5 MHz homer nor does it define their power output. Per C/S T.001 Specification for Cospas-Sarsat 406 MHz Distress Beacons:
Sec. 4.5.3 The distress beacon may incorporate an auxiliary radio-locating device at another frequency (121.5 MHz, 9 GHz SART, etc.) which is compatible with existing radio-locating equipment. Any such auxiliary radio-locating device must satisfy all the national performance standards applicable to radio-locating devices at the selected auxiliary frequency.In the US, the FCC sets the national standards and beacons for use in the US must have the 121.5 MHz "auxiliary radio-locating device."
Requirements for 406 MHz ELTs are specified in FCC Reg "87.199 Special requirements for 406.0–406.1 MHz ELTs." This states
that 406.0–406.1 MHz ELTs must meet all the technical and performance standards contained in the Radio Technical Commission for Aeronautics document titled ''Minimum Operational Performance Standards 406 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELT)'' Document No. RTCA/DO–204 DO-204 specifies the 121.5 MHz power output for ELTs to be:
Sec. 2.4.3 The Equivalent Isotropic Radiated Power (EIRP) shall not be less than -13 dBW (50mW or 17 dBm) or greater than -4 dBW (400 mW or 26 dBm).So the legal power for ELT homing signals in the US must be at least 50 mW and can be up to 400 mW. In other discussions here it has been pointed out that the nominal spec power on many ELTs is 100 mW and in some it is higher.
406 MHz PLBs must meet FCC Part 95.1402 which references RTCM Paper 76-2002/SC110-STD. The 121.5 MHz power requirement here is:
Peak Equivalent Isotropic Radiated Power 25mW, -0 dB, +6 dB (25 mW to 100 mW) and many beacons have a spec nominal of 50 mW.
406 MHz EPIRBS are in FCC Part 80.1061 which references RTCM Paper 77-02/SC110-STD. The 121.5 MHz power requirement here is:
Peak Effective Radiated Power 25mW -0 dB, +6 dB (25 mW to 100 mW), the same as for PLBs, and like PLBs, most beacons have a spec nominal greater than 25 mW.
Mike
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 22, 2009, 06:50:09 PM
Quote from: PHall on March 22, 2009, 06:44:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2009, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: ES forever! on March 22, 2009, 05:40:47 PM
4) If it appears that I avoid answering some of the more pointed questions by a contributor, it is because he has started an IG complaint against me personally, so I can not respond to him.
Just for the record, its not me. I have issues with the offering, but not on that level.
Oh we know who it is...
Care to share? Or should I not even ask? I'm not CAP member remember, so what's an IG complaint?
Think
Lawsuit and you've pretty much got it. Which is why nobody will talk about it.
Lawsuit? I would have thought I would have heard about that...
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 23, 2009, 02:40:33 AM
Lawsuit? I would have thought I would have heard about that...
Its an internal process with no legal standing outside CAP, unless after the investigation NHQ feels the situation warrants a criminal or civil action.
If everyone plays by the rules you wouldn't hear about it, and even mentioning an ongoing one publicly is generally verboten until its closed, and even after it generally best for all parties to keep its to themselves.
Then this is me shutting up...
Way to go folks. You all managed to turn a technical discussion about a new product into a attack on a manufaturer's rep, ending with him leaving with thoughts of lawsuit in his head.
All that without anyone posting an in-hands review of the product.
Mike, this was one that actually should have been locked.
Way to represent for CAP folks. :-\
Way to go folks
This is why CAP is the shape it is in
I agree this ONE should have been locked. This kind of attitude, I would wonder who would want to work us
I really hope some more EM and other professionals are reading this and then get an idea...maybe that is why some do not wnat CAP involved with activities...... 'cuz we know it all!!!
As I read it, cnitas, it's not Firestorm doing a lawsuit, it's someone filing an IG complaint against ES_forever. I had just asked what an IG complaint was, and was told it was similar to a lawsuit, and people should shut up about it...hence my previous post of "this is me shutting up".
Now, if this is something that isn't supposed to be discussed, let's drop it, and get back to the TigerStrike again...
AA batteries. 6 of them. 9 volts. External power plug on the bottom next to the master power switch. Right next to the stereo headphone jack.
I like the idea of stereo on it...hear the single stronger in your left ear, turn more to the left... Nice.
Only with a headset though, the speaker under the screen is mono.
And heliodoc, locking the thread just lets those that would rather fight than discuss win... I'd rather discuss.
The reason Firestorm and TigerStrike want to work with CAP is because they are CAP members themselves, and are trying help. The inventor is a CAP member. By CAP members, for CAP members...the other frequencies it'll work on are just of secondary interest to the guy that came up with the idea, because it was easy enough to make it usable on a wide range of frequencies. But CAP is who he made it for, and where his major interest lies.
Jim, after reading the website and your posts, this looks like a great product. I think it has many features that are very complimentary to what we do.
Obviously in CAP, especially the local unit level, the cost is something to work around - but it seems like TigerStrike has already thought of the end consumer and will work to get grants to reduce or eliminate the cost of the unit. Thats a huge win and something that your 'competitors' don't do.
Out of curiosity, how easy is it to integrate the data transmission features with the mapping software, etc? Will/does the manual cover the setup?
I'm sure that many tech saavy people could figure it out, but I, for instance, am not saavy on wavelengths, how the actual signals work, etc. But given a good set of instructions can get things working and use the equipment.
Again, looks like a great product, I can't wait to hear/read some first hand use reports. Keep on chugging!
Did the issue of whether the new gen 406 ELT's have reduced output on 121.5 ever get resolved? I can't find any publications that show that low power 121.5 beacons are authorized, only rumors.
Major Lord
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 23, 2009, 02:19:47 PM
Out of curiosity, how easy is it to integrate the data transmission features with the mapping software, etc? Will/does the manual cover the setup?
Since it's a major feature of the unit, I expect the manual will cover doing it. I don't have the topo software myself, so I can't test that. Also, mine being a prototype, I didn't get a manual with it, but as I said before, haven't really needed one, everything on the TigerStrike just makes sense. Even putting it together is simple, there's really only one way the parts fit together, so screwing it up isn't really an option.
I can see where working with anything running on Windows would be a trial though... ;)
I was told that, even without the bluetooth (my laptop doesn't have bluetooth, I have to use a dongle to get bluetooth on it), you can take the data that's displayed on the screen of the TigerStrike and punch it directly into the DeLorme topo software and it will still plot it all out for you, you just don't have the "push a button and it's done" like when you have bluetooth.
I've never had a lot of problem with bluetooth myself, it either tends to work for me, or it doesn't. I use bluetooth on my two Palm computers to share the internet connection on my linux machine (where I keep the dongle plugged in), and of course the earpiece to the cell phone runs on bluetooth. All of those were simply "Find bluetooth connections. Pair. Done."
I'll ask someone in California that's done it on bluetooth already and see if it's that hard and post something this afternoon when they get back to me.
Quote from: Major Lord on March 23, 2009, 02:35:30 PM
Did the issue of whether the new gen 406 ELT's have reduced output on 121.5 ever get resolved? I can't find any publications that show that low power 121.5 beacons are authorized, only rumors.
Major Lord
I discussed this in another thread (one of the "what do we do after 1 Feb 2009" threads). The power output on 121.5 varies by manufacturer. ARTEX models seem to all have 100mw; ACR's EPIRBs are 25mw, etc, etc.
Google it and you'll find a bunch of spec sheets to whet your appetite.
Back on topic: When can we see one in FL?
Major Lord, in sardak's message posted above, he states that they are NOT 25mW...but then at the bottom of the same post states the power requirement for 121.5 is 25mW - 100mW, so I don't know.
Same message he states "shall not be less than 50mW nor greater than 400 mW".
Keep searching maybe?
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 23, 2009, 03:50:19 PM
Back on topic: When can we see one in FL?
Joe, I am about to step out of the office for a little while, but if you give me a call in about an hour, I should be sitting back at my desk by then and we can discuss it.
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 23, 2009, 03:54:09 PM
Major Lord, in sardak's message posted above, he states that they are NOT 25mW...but then at the bottom of the same post states the power requirement for 121.5 is 25mW - 100mW, so I don't know.
Same message he states "shall not be less than 50mW nor greater than 400 mW".
Keep searching maybe?
Roger that, there may be different authorized power levels for EPIRBs, I only found regs for ELT's. I will double check. Thanks.
Major Lord
Stay tuned kids. I promise to post an objective review after our Practice Ops Eval next week. We have several Electrical Engineers in our Wing including me, so we plan to put it through the wringer as much as possible and provide an unbiased review.
Quote from: Major Lord on March 23, 2009, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 23, 2009, 03:54:09 PM
Major Lord, in sardak's message posted above, he states that they are NOT 25mW...but then at the bottom of the same post states the power requirement for 121.5 is 25mW - 100mW, so I don't know.
Same message he states "shall not be less than 50mW nor greater than 400 mW".
Keep searching maybe?
Roger that, there may be different authorized power levels for EPIRBs, I only found regs for ELT's. I will double check. Thanks.
Major Lord
Chapter and verse from the FCC regs for the 121.5 MHz output power for ELTs, PLBs and EPIRBs were stated in this thread. If you want to continue looking because you don't believe it, have at it. When you find something different, please post it here.
Mike
Quote from: Major Lord on March 23, 2009, 02:35:30 PM
Did the issue of whether the new gen 406 ELT's have reduced output on 121.5 ever get resolved? I can't find any publications that show that low power 121.5 beacons are authorized, only rumors.
Major Lord
http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/Documents/tDocs.htm
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 23, 2009, 02:19:47 PMOut of curiosity, how easy is it to integrate the data transmission features with the mapping software, etc? Will/does the manual cover the setup?
Sorry for the delay, only just now talked to one of the guys in Cali about it, and he had to rush off before the call was really finished, while he was explaining some stuff to me.
Yes, the manual will cover everything you need to know, as expected of a manual.
There's a holdup (and this part answers some of Major Lord's question about timeframe) waiting on DeLorme with something on their side of it (and this is when he had to get off the phone, so I didn't get whatever it is they are waiting on DeLorme to do), but that all the tests so far with communication between devices works fine. So, hardware works, software seems to be (from what I understand) what's being waited on.
Quote from: SE_Tigerstrike on March 24, 2009, 01:39:51 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 23, 2009, 02:19:47 PMOut of curiosity, how easy is it to integrate the data transmission features with the mapping software, etc? Will/does the manual cover the setup?
Sorry for the delay, only just now talked to one of the guys in Cali about it, and he had to rush off before the call was really finished, while he was explaining some stuff to me.
Yes, the manual will cover everything you need to know, as expected of a manual.
There's a holdup (and this part answers some of Major Lord's question about timeframe) waiting on DeLorme with something on their side of it (and this is when he had to get off the phone, so I didn't get whatever it is they are waiting on DeLorme to do), but that all the tests so far with communication between devices works fine. So, hardware works, software seems to be (from what I understand) what's being waited on.
Seems to be that way everywhere. Where I work, the hardware guys say the stuff doesn't work because of the software guys. The software guys say the stuff doesn't work because of the hardware :)
Thanks for the update, I'm interested to see how this works out.
Well, eventually it'll work out with it working, of course. ;) All the little duckies just have to line up like they are supposed to, in a nice neat row.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/lurchmonster/Ducks_in_a_row.jpg)
Hello everyone,
My apologies' this is a bit long.
I have been following this story on the TigerStrike from its conception. My self and my team are interested in it. I have been reading all of the postings and I am truly amazed at some of the Professionals who work for CAP.
Many comments that were posted were truly unwarranted and it does seam like some persons have a grudge against the firestorm company & or its people. That is a shame! ES is to save lives and if someone can build a better mouse trap then great! (Thank you for removing the nasty comments moderator)
I work for a department of the NAVY and we do tracking. The archaic equipment that is still being used by us and other departments are needless to say "Horrible"
My opinion on the testing of the equipment should be done by some of the best trackers in the Nation. Most of them live right here in Southern California. In fact only a few of them we consider the best come out and train us when we need it and we are supposed to be of that caliber of a team.
I can tell you right now that the best way to hunt transmitters is by the beam on the vehicle with a simple radio with and electronic attenuator. However this is not in CAP's reality; to a point. Your hands are tide with Red tape in practically everything you do. A Doppler is only good if you are within a few miles of a transmitter with very little or nothing to reflect off of and this can be debated. Many trackers need hidden ways of tracking so no antennas can been seen. (Difficult to do)
You can't learn electronic tracking techniques by a book. Even the basics in a book are not much help, it only gets you started. Hands on is the only way to learn.
You in the CAP (& others) should be tapping into the Experts who live in your area and learn from them. That is if you truly want to be better as ground teams & individuals in tracking.
You have a gentlemen named Bob Miller, he has access to some folks that can hunt circles around the CAP and "ANY" other tracking team on this earth. I do know that Mr. Miller has used one or two of them to help train the CAP at SAR City and used them to train the Sherriff Search and Risqué Teams & others. We have also used the same person to kick us back into the correct way of tracking when we need it.
Ladies and Gents, I wish you the best of luck in saving lives and or the recovery. Please work together and use the knowledge around you to do what you enjoy doing. Each of us has the preferred equipment we like but don't grow up in your own world while the rest walk right by you. Open your mind to new ideas, techniques or what ever comes your way.
To the FireStorm guys. Let the Best in the world test your equipment; see what they have to say. Let Mr. H know that Roger said hi. One or maybe a few more know who I am talking about.
Thank you for letting me post a run.
MrRogers:
There are some folks here who would argue the color of the sky. Don't sweat those people; that's internet courage for you. Ignore it and keep with the discussion at hand.
On the other hand, some of us are watching this new piece of equipment with healthy skepticism. I personally would love to see a piece of equipment that can do everything the Tigerstrike promises. After that, its a simple matter of economics.
I am sure that all of the doubts about this unit can be set aside as soon as we have CAP members (who are not owners of the Company and are experienced in DF techniques) test and evaluate the production Tigerstrike. MrRogersx1, are you by any chance another member the Firestorm team? My Squadron (Travis) will happily make its facilities available for the demonstration of this equipment.
Major Lord
Looks like I will be the only Firestorm guy in MS this Saturday, IF it's not rained out. All the guys that were pegged to fly in from California have something else keeping them away...
So, hopefully I'll be good enough. ;)
See ya Saturday.
You have a gentlemen named Bob Miller, he has access to some folks that can hunt circles around the CAP and "ANY" other tracking team on this earth. I do know that Mr. Miller has used one or two of them to help train the CAP at SAR City and used them to train the Sherriff Search and Risqué Teams & others. We have also used the same person to kick us back into the correct way of tracking when we need it.
In California, there are two guys that go on 95% of all the missions (Tom Charpenter and Bob Kielholtz) and this year have at least 5 saves and dozens of finds. Maybe we should see what they use and learn from them! I don't think either of them have been invited to any of the demos or tests, I know Tom was at the Bakerfields demo and was never approached by the Tigerstrike folks. Odd? Maybe, maybe not. I never hear Bob Miller or Ron Butts out on hardly ANY missions. I don't think either of the two should be considered "experts" .
Ok, two things...
One, the TigerStrike is no longer going to be using bluetooth. The military is interested in the TigerStrike, and there's a military boom designed, but the government doesn't like bluetooth, so now the TigerStrike will be using an encrypted signal to communicate with the topo software on the laptop. Firestorm will be providing the dongle to receive the signal from the TigerStrike.
And two, ANOTHER battle starting up in here? Jeez...
Whats a Risque Team? Are the rest of us incapable of determining what's best for our units based on our own budgets? I have some solid ES guys in my unit as well that I go to.
Jim,
I think the suggestion to Have Bob Keilholtz test the unit is a spendid one! There is no one else who's objectivity and credibility I would trust more. We have been asked to hold the discussion to the area of the technology of the Tigerstrike, but so far, we don't really have any info on the technology; just unmet dates for demos and production. Do you have a new goal date for production yet?
Major Lord
ps. I don't know what a risque team is unless they have nude SAR teams out there somewhere! Is that Canadian for "Risk" ?
Major Lord, there are plenty of met dates for demos, and redesign pushes production times back. The bluetooth change isn't minor. Matter of fact, now that I think about it, I don't know of any UNmet dates for demos, unless you count when I had the wrong date for the thing at Bakersfield? That happened, just not on the weekend I thought it did. As far as the one this weekend, I'm not calling it off, it's the Eval itself in danger of getting called off, on account of weather.
If Bob Keilholtz wants to see a unit, I am sure the guys out there in California would be more than happy to let him see one, as they are trying to get everyone that wants to see it a chance with it.
It's a little far for me to drive, though, so it won't be me showing it to him. ;)
Someone mentioned that a Tom Charpenter was at Bakersfield but wasn't approached by the TigerStrike guys... So? Did he wear a tshirt that said "Hi, I am the God of DF, all new tech must be evaluated by me!" Did he go to the TigerStrike guys, who were there for ANYONE INTERESTED to come and see the TigerStrike and express an interest? Don't fault Firestorm because they didn't know an anonymous person in the crowd needed to be hunted down and forced to evaluate the TigerStrike, they were there to let EVERYONE see it.
Oh, and I know what Risque is, but not a Risque Team...but I'm not CAP, remember? I would guess it's an amusing term for something else, like maybe a Risk team or something.
Jim,
The mysterious ( and probably mythical) MrRogers was the one bringing up the Risque teams, we don't hold you responsible...this is a family page after all! Once again, I will happily offer the services of Travis for a live demo ( You don't have to drive out, we understand you are a long way away) I will arrange to have a full gamut of interested parties there if you can produce a unit and a field rep.
Major Lord
Well, it wouldn't be me arranging that, my area is just the SouthEast, but you, and anyone else, are fully welcome to call the company and set up any demos you need. You can call the number in my signature and just not use my extention.
Roger that.
Major Lord
Quote:
Someone mentioned that a Tom Charpenter was at Bakersfield but wasn't approached by the TigerStrike guys... So? Did he wear a tshirt that said "Hi, I am the God of DF, all new tech must be evaluated by me!" Did he go to the TigerStrike guys, who were there for ANYONE INTERESTED to come and see the TigerStrike and express an interest? Don't fault Firestorm because they didn't know an anonymous person in the crowd needed to be hunted down and forced to evaluate the TigerStrike, they were there to let EVERYONE see it.
I think Tom was well known at the eval and Ron Butts knew he was there. He was the OSC! I guess if Firestorm really wanted an opinion from the caliber of someone like Tom, they would have asked him to demo the unit. His favorable review would have been priceless since he is a leader in DF work and knowledge. The absence of his review or Kielholtz's may say something about the company's ability to accept a honest review from expert end users. I think if they thought there was a better mousetrap, they would have sent a check to Firestorm by now. Have they?
Folks, this thread is going downhill fast again. Apparrantly,nobody can talk rationally about this without letting personal views and preferences get in the way. Check the attitudes or this will be locked.
Best person to contact for a demo?
Major Lord
Quote from: calguy on March 26, 2009, 05:42:53 PM
Quote:
I think Tom was well known at the eval and Ron Butts knew he was there. He was the OSC! I guess if Firestorm really wanted an opinion from the caliber of someone like Tom, they would have asked him to demo the unit. His favorable review would have been priceless since he is a leader in DF work and knowledge. The absence of his review or Kielholtz's may say something about the company's ability to accept a honest review from expert end users. I think if they thought there was a better mousetrap, they would have sent a check to Firestorm by now. Have they?
I was just informed that Ron Butts has already been in contact with Bob Kielholtz, and Bob had some great input and a hand in designing the test plan activities for the TigerStrike. So, what does that say about your attempt to imply Firestorm is hiding from your experts? Nothing is hidden, we're trying to get everything done right, and produce a device unlike anything ever seen in the field before.
Late for a meeting, back later.
Major Lord, call and talk to Bob Miller to arrange a demo.
Thanks Mike for the course correction again.
First, when we designed the Tigerstrike system, and yes it is a system, it was intended to fill the void of the difference of training in the various squadron. groups and wings with a more uniform method of aquiring and communication the results of that signal aquistion with mission base or the GTL.
Not everyone is as skilled a land navigator as Bob Miller, Bob K and Tom C. they clearly are some of the best in the nation, so the challenge is how do we emulate these guys Technology is one way we can lift up the accuracy of the acquired DF signal and the ability to communicate that actual results. Why argue that more is better, more accuracy, more GPS data, more accurate compass reading, and frankly more safety fpr teh ground teams. Who would be critical of knowing instantly where the ground teams where with the pull of the trigger and the cell rely to mission base?
To truly understand what we are dealing with here you have to look beyond the df aspect on its own and see the bigger benefit to the mission as a whole. This is a inegrated system, not simplely one more df unit. We know from the independant lab that we are about -127 dbm in sensitivity, while most others are in the -120 in the DF mode at best.... lper 1 was the closest.
It is our intent to publish the comparative featurs chart we use internally and the final results of the test plan once we have completed the final tests, and publish I mean in an IEEE paper folks. So our results with me evaluated by the engineering community not just the capers here.
If we find a problem with the Tigerstrike we will correct it, untill it not only right but clearly superior. Is any other vendor doing that today? Is the Altoid DF, Lper, Profind, Vectra, Tracker or any other spending 2009 dollars in development? My sense is not, this is not a huge market for any company, we are doing this out of our passion for what we do in ES and DF
I welcome real input, if you have suggetions and real ideas on what to include or considerations lets talk about that, this is an exciting time for the product, our product development team will talk turkey with anyone with a idea or a concept of something we have overlooked.
lets play nice and talk tech....
I am the CTO, and I approve this message... lol
I spoke to Bob Keilholtz a few minutes ago, and Bob had no input into the Tigerstrike or test planning, and has not has his hands on one. He would like to participate in a test of the unit should Firestorm be able to make one available. We can find a place in Southern or Northern California, and with a little lead time can bring in the pro's to evaluate the unit.
Major Lord
Well I was standing beside Ron Butts when he was having the conversatiosn with Bob K. and Bob Suggested the addition of the mutliple elts in the testplan, which we included. I never said Bob K had any input in to the design, the testplan yes. But I not going to be drawn into your continued attempts to discredit the corporation or myself.
So I will post the test plan here shortly and lets get back the real reason we are here of offering good will of our experieinces to better the product. From that you can see we are working professionally to both evaluate and report the technologies capability.
Bob Miller is awaiting your call for your demo, please call him.
SE-Tigerstrike:
While I'm not sure about the product, but I'm willing to give it a chance. I'll try to get a proposal in the works, and if i can, can you get a Togerstrike for us to use?
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 26, 2009, 09:55:49 PM
SE-Tigerstrike:
While I'm not sure about the product, but I'm willing to give it a chance. I'll try to get a proposal in the works, and if i can, can you get a Togerstrike for us to use?
You want a demo, or to buy one outright? You're in North Carolina, right?
Either way, feel free to give me a call anytime tomorrow and I can put either one into the works for you. Number is in the sig file.
Demo.
I'm npt an ES Officer, or anybody that can commit funds, but I think that if more pople see that it works, and can get the funds, it might be a good investment. Yes, I am in NC.
I don't think it is overly important as to who did what. Sure there is some credibility that certain people bring to the table, but I think the more important thing is simply understanding the product itself. Let's stick to the unit itself, how it works, what changes are being made, how to test it, and where members can try a demo of it. The folks who make equipment for ES should not have to defend themselves or their methods of arriving at the design, but rather defend their product.
Ok, that's my region. ;) Give me a call tomorrow and we can discuss it. It'd be best if we can get everyone in the area that's interested to show up, kill as many birds with one stone as possible.
And thanks, CAPSGT.
The Tigerstrike will be at the Riverside Airport Air show this week end for anyone intereted in looking at there. CAWG Chief Ground Team Leader, Lt Col Miller will have one to be seen.
Unfortunately, we (MS Wing) have had to postpone our exercise until next weekend due to the series of fronts moving through the south. We still plan to test a unit if possible and I will post our results.
The Firestorm President is Bob Miller
TigerstrikeTM represents a quantum leap forward in search and rescue ground team mission efficiency at a critical time in history with the loss of the LEOSAR satellite system," says Firestorm President Bob Miller.
So what kind of conflict of interest is it to have the California Wing CAP"Chief Ground Team" person to be at a CAP function selling something his company makes?? In Uniform
This is why CAP has consistently been in trouble with the USAF over the years.
And to have CAWG Senior Staff ' HAWK" these devices, to CAWG CAP???
SHAME, SHAME
We need devices but not like this.
How many Devices are being sold around the world?? 8 or 9
lets field test units for CAP
Wingnut,
I don't think Firestorm has made any secret of the knowledge that the principals are all CAP members and are trying to sell to CAP-there is nothing unethical about that per se, unless the people making the purchasing decision in CAP are also benefiting from the sales of products ( self-dealing). I don't know if Bob Miller will be in uniform in Riverside, or actally trying to sell the device, rather than just showing it. I agree that acting as salesman for your own products while flying the CAP flag would be wrong, but we don't know for sure if thats the case. My Squadron's former commander, Lt. Col. Gordon Ziegler, died last week, so I will be at the funeral, but I would love to get a chance to see a Tigerstrike ( and test it) in person. Hopefully someone else with the experience and knowledge will be able to give us an after action report. So far, none of these demonstrations have produced what I would call a credible product review. At Murray Craig's request, I am going to contact the Firestorm office to try to set up a demo for interested people. Will advise.
Major Lord
Quote from: wingnut55 on March 27, 2009, 03:18:19 AM
This is why CAP has consistently been in trouble with the USAF over the years.
Cite, please.
Without comment on this situation, that's a strong statement with no backing.
CAP has had relationship issues with big blue, but its not because of our people hawking wares in uniform.
Eclipse,
Wasn't there an allegation that a Motorola employee and CAP NHQ member spec'd CAP purchases of Motorola gear, that went undelivered to the field? The question of self-dealing was raised in that inquiry, but I am not sure how it resolved. I remember that there were other agencies investigating.
Major Lord
No idea, but unless Wingnut is aware of some pattern of ethics violations in his area, to say that we're "consistently in trouble with the USAF" because of procurement issues just isn't cricket.
Hmmm...let's take at the route this discussion is going down and how it relates to professionalism and our core values...
Quote from: Respect on DisplayA respectful person assumes others operate in good faith, unless he or she has a compelling reason to believe otherwise. The principle calls for CAP members to assume their fellow members are trying to help the CAP mission, not pursue personal gain.
Yep, I think that about sums it up. YMMV.
I would agree with you that to say that we are consistently in trouble with USAF over procurement issues is somewhat of an overstatement. "Consistently in trouble" could be once a decade, as opposed to once a week. Perhaps the modifier "occasionally" ( in trouble with USAF) would have been a better choice of words, but maybe Wingnut has more complete info in this regards than we do.
In the last few years, we have seen CAP members at the highest levels of the Corporation act in bad faith, even perhaps criminally so. A "respectful person" presumes that others are acting in good faith, but when the situation imperils the whole group, a prudent man will not rely on good faith alone, but on a diligent examination of the facts.
Major Lord
Wow, that will teach me to get sick and spend a few days away from the computer.
If only CAPtalk were used by more members of CAP...there have been PLENTY of people that have gotten hands on with the TigerStrike, but sadly, it seems none of them are users on CAPtalk. Perhaps they just don't like drama? And, of course, if we ask them to set up an account and give their impressions, people will then say "Oh, yeah, another Firestorm employee jumping in here and making fake claims..." So far as I know, myself and ES Forever! are the only Firestorm employees in the forums. But, as most of the guys are CAP members, I could be wrong. I think we're the only two that have posted on this thread, though.
Next Saturday I hope to be handing a TigerStrike to Al Sayre, who I believe has stated he's an engineer, and has a few engineer buddies that also want to see it, and letting him get some time with it. He would seem to me to be a credible and objective reviewer, especially since he came to us, not the other way around. After that, I hope he'll pop back in here (I can't see him not) and post his impressions of it.
Not that that will make even the slightest difference to those people that, for some reason, have a problem with Firestorm and wish to do little more than tear down a company trying to improve things, but perhaps it will settle some questions for those with open minds.
Jim,
Al Sayre would make and excellent and unbiased evaluator for your product prototype. I am sure you can understand our skepticism; Generally, when we hear about products that are too good to be true, we assume that its a scam. I have not been able to verify that Firestrom has ever sold a single unit of anything to anybody, so the company is unproven. Produce a working product and you will set our hearts at ease.
The Firestorm Website states: "We have become a leading provider of Radio Direction products, technologies, and data for government agencies and professional markets in the search and rescue field" Can you please explain what this means, and which agencies you are referring to?
I have taken the liberty of opening a Yahoo group For those interested in Tigerstrike and Firestorm: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tigerstrike/
Major Lord
So here goes....
First, Jim or I am not going to respond more unfounded allegations about the company or the product as it is clear several of you are going to try and kill the thread.
Second, we are here to talk about the technology.... So Al I read your article about the Altoid DF unit you are selling on EBAY for $70. ea. Lets talk about comparing the technology of your Mint Box Unit as it compares to the TigerStike. So how much -dbm does your device have and what fltering are you using? We have recently discover the LARK filters and are very happy with them, although very expensive. We believe that the kind of filtering and preamp are necessary to achieve the sensitivity that is needed in today's mission.
Third, In the Eagle Call article you admit your unit is for close in work only (Page 3) and is a FM receiver vs the Tigerstirke Digital version (DSP) and of course it is software programmable, the benefit of using the latest technology vs an old chipset.
Fourth, what is the opinion of the group watching this post and what valuse would you place on it, a simple 406 receiver that would decode and display the beacon data. Let me know We have a design meet in AZ next week. How much would you pay for that additional feature.
Well there you are, a technical engineering oriented post
Murray,
There is no comparison in the units. My unit had a sensitivity of 119 dBm. Its strongest point was its very low cost, its weakest point, the fixed-frequency operation. I found with a Diamond MAY-1000, it would detect an ELT in LOS conditions at about 8 miles. Naturally, we never have line of sight conditions, else we could see the aircraft wreckage! The FM receiver was so that people could use it with a Doppler direction finder as a tuner-engine, since you need an FM receiver to make that happen. If you are trying to paint me as a disgruntled competitor, you are barking up the wrong tree-I am not in that business. I sold a low cost kit at a loss as a service to CAP people who could not afford an L-Per. My direction finder had the singular advantage of actually existing.....I have no interest in shutting down this thread but it appears to me that your websites' claim is just not true, and your failure to respond to it speaks volumes. I will be more than happy to apologize to you form my skepticism about your product, but someone with credibilty needs to validate and authenticate the unit beofre that happens. I don't believe your product is real, but thats just my opinion.
Major Lord
Ok as this is a product discussion, what is it that you think is not real, and then I would be happy to discuss that technology we used to create the feature... Be specific what feature?
Major Lord...
Which agencies I can't really say, something I know you understand, because you said the same thing in the article you wrote praising your Altoid DF device. I DO have an announcement I am chomping at the bit to make, but can not make until such time as the purchaser allows. It WILL be announced, and since this thread has grown to such an overwhelming degree, it'll be announced here as well.
Yes, there HAVE been units sold, and yes, it DOES exist, I have one sitting in a case right beside me, AND have posted pics of it for you to enjoy. Al Sayre will get to play with it next Saturday, and will give his impressions, good or bad, as he sees fit. The mere fact that I am not going to ask the company for a client list and post it for you doesn't speak volumes of anything, other than the fact that I am not an idiot.
As for the yahoo group... Why? Do you work for us now too and I just didn't get the memo?
Quote from: Major Lord on March 29, 2009, 10:39:29 PM
someone with credibilty needs to validate and authenticate the unit
So, anyone that has issued an opinion on the TigerStrike thus far automatically has no credibility?
Allrighty then:
1) I don't believe that the digital compass will aid in providing an accurate bearing in a design using a wide lobed 2 element yagi design. You may have .5 degrees compass of accuracy, but you won't be able to distinguish a bearing within more than 10's of degrees. Its like putting a laser sight on a catalpult. As far as distinguishing tilt or elevation change with a low-gain, horizontally-polarized yagi 5 feet above the ground, I say.....not!
2) I don't belive that you can significantly outperform the L-per's sensitivity, without allowing your receiver to desense, since the selectivity will be commensurately wider.
3) I don't belive that you will be able to use digital signal processing to any practical end with a 121.5 signal that may be anywhere from a series of intermittent pulses, to a dead carrier, to a full quieting tone swept signal. Its good that its frequency agile, ( so SAREX-ONLY people can play too) but that is actually a deficit, since the front end filters need to be wide enough to pass the entire band of interest, preventing the creation of a tigh bandpass filter to use with your super-high gain receiver.
4) I don't believe that you can increase the range of detection with the limitations of your antenna.
5) I don't belive Ground teams are going to bring laptops into the wilderness and have them work when needed in adverse conditions.
5) I don't belive that a cellular based data link is going to be of any value in actual searches, since its pretty easy to find airplanes without DF gear when they fall in cities.
6) These are all based on the presumption that you actually have a device, something not yet demonstrated.
7) I do believe that you have accepted money as pre-payment on purchases, and that these units have not been delivered.
8) I don't believe that any government agencies have purchased these devices.
9) I do not believe that the Tigerstrike has been Part 15 certificated to be lawfully offered for sale.
Well, I think thats a pretty good start.
Major Lord
good that is a start:
Point 1)
Part A
So you don't believe that a digital compass is a good thing, Sorry you think that, since you are a GTL you know that some of your GTMs are not the best at map reading, so why not provide some tools that make it easier for them to take the bearing. As for the manufacturer of the compass we put in the Tigerstrike, this is their specs, and since is came from a milspec torpedo I am sure of the .1 degree accuracy.
Part B
It is not a wide lobe yagi design, it however a HB9CV which which has a very smooth more pointed front lobe is very accurate, see if you would call Bob Miller as I have been suggested for the last 2 weeks you might get to see one work for yourself. Is your enginering background that has you an expert in see an product and knowing the lobe width, I did how ever notice in the article that you wrote about yourself in Eagle Call you are a PI, suspect of everthing I guess and looking for conspiracies.
Point 2
So let me understand this, you think that our technology using more modern technology chipset and advances in components are incapable of surpassing 20 year old through hole mount components and technology... This is like saying the IBM XT can never be beaten in speed...... I am sorry this is a completely invalid and unscientific premise.
Point 3
Part A) Perhaps some of the more recent advancements in DSP have past by with out you seeing them. This is a software driven receiver and it has multiple personalities that can be called in based on the type of detectable signal, from carrier to sweeptone. The software package we are using is called freescale, although it is not free it is an awesome and very flexable about how it processes the signal. Clearly I will not discuss proprietary methods of how we do certain things, but I will tell you how we accomplished them.
Part B) I am sorry , you must have missed the demo portion of the website www.fsems.com that showed that we actually have multiple boom/antenna arrays that as specifically tuned to the frequency we are hunting, since all the antenna preamps and filters are built in to the boom, the receiver is frequency neutral until a boom is put in place and it identifies itself.
Point 4) With out actually revealing all the technology we are using, you are welcome to hold that belief however false in reality it is.
Point 5) Once again that is your opinion based on you past history, however with the UMPCs like the ACER One is very rugged as we have learned in the field trials, and frankly many of the GTLs in SOCAL routinely carry their notebooks in the field, once again your experience is limited to you.
Point 6)
Part A) Yes there are places where the cell will not work BUT, there are more place that it is routinely available as the CDMAGSM technology expands, come on now we know there are lost of crashes that happen within cell coverage, now you are just being silly. To suggest that the CAWG DO is not a credible person, well you can tell him that yourself the next time you see him, I suspect he wont agree with if I know Ron Butts.
Part B) I have encouraged several of the CAP and non CAP participants to post their observations after seeing our demos this week. The response I have gotten back is "Why are you being attacked and why do I want to attacked if I say something positive. " So I have no idea why on the first and the second I would have to agree, so we will just have to wait for the weekend.
As for the rest these issues, they are not technology based and are company confidential, and we are not in a court of law, so I am not guilty if we dont answer to your satisfaction.
Murray,
This is all probably moot. Al Sayre will either have a unit to evaluate on Saturday and prove me wrong, or he won't. I would be delighted if your unit performs well. The proof as they say, is in the putting.
On the photos I saw, I did not see the 225 degree phasing line, so I assumed that these were simple Yagis. Thats a good approach.
Major Lord
No it is not a moot point, I just blew your arguments to bits based on the FACTS and TECHNOLOGY and you refuse to apologise to the readership as you promised, now I am done responding to your unsubstantiated claims, you have refused to call Bob Miller (909-519-1152 cell in case you missed it earlier) to view one yourself, in your own words, you lack of actions speaks volumes.
I am truly sorry that this thread has had to endure this childish play, we are here to share the philosophy and technology that has made the Tigerstike a great piece of gear. It is not perfect and as all equipment has limitations, but with the users of the Tigerstrike's help we can make it more outstanding than it already is.
We are not here to be combative or offensive, and will not file multiples IG complaints against another CAP member we don't agree with, that would be a misuse of the CAP process in a commercial endeavour. We are here seeking to respond to questions about the technology and use of the Tigertstrike as it unfolds.
I am still looking for input on the 406 receiver part as an addition or whether or not it is a good thing or not...
Lock.