Apparently the Boy Scouts are getting into SAR. http://www.scouting.org/Media/PressReleases/2012/20120605.aspx (http://www.scouting.org/Media/PressReleases/2012/20120605.aspx)
I've known of Boy Scout Explorer posts that do SAR, but this is new.
More power to them, there's plenty to go around...
Enough of them get lost, that's for sure. ::)
Is this just another badge we have to help them with?
What badges do we help them with now?
As a former Scout, I'll say this: As long as this is just an educational type of thing I support it. I wouldn't support BSA SAR teams, save for Venturing Crews/Explorers.
QuoteScouts must complete a series of nine requirements relating to SAR fundamentals...
lol. Its hilarious how easy it is to get some of those badges.
CAP around here has helped with the aviation merit badge (I think thats what its called) and maybe one other.
The press release sort of implies that they will actually be available for doing SAR.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 07, 2012, 12:13:13 PM
CAP around here has helped with the aviation merit badge (I think thats what its called) and maybe one other.
The press release sort of implies that they will actually be available for doing SAR.
From the end of para 2:
QuoteScouts will learn the fundamentals of SAR, but the badge will not qualify a young person as a trained searcher.
I got a chuckle out of the article. Every GTE I've attended had a scenario involving lost scouts.
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on June 07, 2012, 08:07:04 AM
As a former Scout, I'll say this: As long as this is just an educational type of thing I support it. I wouldn't support BSA SAR teams, save for Venturing Crews/Explorers.
QuoteScouts must complete a series of nine requirements relating to SAR fundamentals...
lol. Its hilarious how easy it is to get some of those badges.
The badges are not there to make anyone an expert. They are like college 101 classes.....they are supposed to be easy so that the scout gets a "survey" of the subject and maybe develope an interest in the subject.
From the press release....the SAR merit badge is not so that the scout troop can do their own SAR but to assist other agencies.
Something that CAP could look into IMHO.
I don't think the Scouts are getting into SAR in terms of having standby emergency teams. This is a merit badge, it's a learning thing. Essentially, a scout learns the technical steps of HOW to perform SAR, but once the merit badge is earned, there is no further SAR involvement. If we wanted to do something to help them, we could try to coordinate with them to make sure what they teach about SAR is what we do. It could even be a recruiting opportunity.
As far as Scouts getting lost - they spend more time in the woods that we do, at least my son's troop goes camping something like 10 times a year. It's expected that if someone is going to get lost, it sould be the one who was in the woods the most.
I like this addition to the merit badges. As a scout leader and GTM, I'll be having fun teaching this one to my troop.
As I told a un-motivated scout a few years ago: merit badges aren't just to collect so you can be an Eagle Scout. They're chances to experiment in something new. To see if there's something out there that you haven't encountered before that you like. I'm sure there have been many scouts over the years that have found lifelong hobbies, passions and even professions from taking a few weeks to earn a merit badge.
Plus, I see this as a great recruiting tool. "Hey you like this stuff? Wanna do it for real?"
That's been my experience, both personally and now with my kids. Merit badges, etc., are essentially an orientation-level exposure to
something new.
In this case, it'll likely just bring some structure to things most active scouts are already doing. Fieldcraft is fiedcraft, and the rest is just herding the cats,
no matter what organization we're talking about.
Absent regular retraining, MOUs, insurance, etc., not to mention the fact that there's no adult training, I wouldn't expect this to be anything more.
To Walkman's point, if anything, this may open some recruiting doors for CAP. Not only can we assist in the training, but for those that get the bug,
we'll certainly offer more opportunities for both training and service.
Good on them for the idea.
I think coordinating with the local BSA Troops to do training days for the MB is a fantastic recruiting opp. I know we will be reaching out to all the local troops around here. Guess I better get crackin on my Quals for GT3 :)
As a long time Scouter.....merit badges have always been something of an "outsource" training opportunity.
While we do a lot in house.....and summer camp knocks out a lot of them.....the intention is for the scout or troop to seek out experts in the field to teach them.
Someone wants to do fire fighting merit badge......he makes contact with the local fire department, bee keeping....the local bee keeper....SAR the lcoal SAR agency.
Obviously since the announcment was made at NASAR, BSA has partnered with NASAR for this merit badge.....since our training matches NASAR in most ways......it is an opportunity for CAP to partner with our local BSA units to provide this sort of training. We should already be doing this as we are certainly already geared up to provide support for the aviation merit badge.
This is also another way that CAP could adopt a BSA style of doing things to help improve the cadet program. Develope a list of "career" orintation courses (we can't call them merit badges ;) ) covering different aspects of the aviation industry, military, emergency services, etc...which may or may not tie directly into CAP ES or CP.....to provide the cadets the opprotunity expand their thinking about what CAP can do for them....besides just an entry into military life.....and yes we should have some sort of ribbon to recognise them when they complete a course. 8)
Yep....I just made it a uniform thread! ;D
Ignore - turns out I disagreed by agreeing.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 05:00:06 PM
This is also another way that CAP could adopt a BSA style of doing things to help improve the cadet program. Develope a list of "career" orintation courses (we can't call them merit badges ;) ) covering different aspects of the aviation industry, military, emergency services, etc...which may or may not tie directly into CAP ES or CP.....to provide the cadets the opprotunity expand their thinking about what CAP can do for them....besides just an entry into military life.....and yes we should have some sort of ribbon to recognise them when they complete a course. 8)
That's kind of a cool idea!
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 05:00:06 PM
This is also another way that CAP could adopt a BSA style of doing things to help improve the cadet program. Develope a list of "career" orintation courses (we can't call them merit badges ;) ) covering different aspects of the aviation industry, military, emergency services, etc...which may or may not tie directly into CAP ES or CP.....to provide the cadets the opprotunity expand their thinking about what CAP can do for them....besides just an entry into military life.....and yes we should have some sort of ribbon to recognise them when they complete a course. 8)
I think this is great, provided we don't also adopt the BSA style of throwing awards at people that haven't gone through all the steps to earn them. Taking a "There are no winners or losers" approach like BSA does (at least in my experience) is not doing them any favors because that isn't the way it works in real life. Also I think if we were to design this type of program we would want to make it difficult enough that the cadets would really have to work towards earning that ribbon. I think the T/S/M model used for PD is a good model for this. Just my humble $0.02
Quote from: Walkman on June 07, 2012, 05:15:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 05:00:06 PM
This is also another way that CAP could adopt a BSA style of doing things to help improve the cadet program. Develope a list of "career" orintation courses (we can't call them merit badges ;) ) covering different aspects of the aviation industry, military, emergency services, etc...which may or may not tie directly into CAP ES or CP.....to provide the cadets the opprotunity expand their thinking about what CAP can do for them....besides just an entry into military life.....and yes we should have some sort of ribbon to recognise them when they complete a course. 8)
That's kind of a cool idea!
We already have that...
(That might have been what lordmonar was getting at)
Quote from: krnlpanick on June 07, 2012, 05:19:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 05:00:06 PM
This is also another way that CAP could adopt a BSA style of doing things to help improve the cadet program. Develope a list of "career" orintation courses (we can't call them merit badges ;) ) covering different aspects of the aviation industry, military, emergency services, etc...which may or may not tie directly into CAP ES or CP.....to provide the cadets the opprotunity expand their thinking about what CAP can do for them....besides just an entry into military life.....and yes we should have some sort of ribbon to recognise them when they complete a course. 8)
I think this is great, provided we don't also adopt the BSA style of throwing awards at people that haven't gone through all the steps to earn them. Taking a "There are no winners or losers" approach like BSA does (at least in my experience) is not doing them any favors because that isn't the way it works in real life. Also I think if we were to design this type of program we would want to make it difficult enough that the cadets would really have to work towards earning that ribbon. I think the T/S/M model used for PD is a good model for this. Just my humble $0.02
I don't know what you are talking about. You earn merit badges by completeling the requirments.
I'm not suggesting T/S/M model for anything. The, say, Aircraft Maintenance "merit badge" would not make the cadet qualified to actually do any maintenance.....but would give him/her a "survey" of what GA aircraft maintenance was about. How to get their A&P, what it training it takes, what duties are invovled.
In a lot of ways it would be like how our SDA's are supposed to work.
Supposed to.
In reality, given that 15% get to Mitchell, and only 5% to Earhart, I'm going to assume just about 2/3 cadets get stumped by the SDA and never progress past the Mitchell.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 07:38:42 PM
I don't know what you are talking about. You earn merit badges by completeling the requirments.
That is indeed the way it is supposed to be, however I have personally seen many scouts earn awards just because it was time to do awards and they had worked on some of the requirements so they just award them so they don't feel left out. I'm not saying that every troop or unit is like this - and I am sure there are CAP squadrons that have the same problems, but I have witnessed it firsthand in scouting and it really rubs me the wrong way.
Quote from: arajca on June 07, 2012, 01:45:28 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 07, 2012, 12:13:13 PM
CAP around here has helped with the aviation merit badge (I think thats what its called) and maybe one other.
The press release sort of implies that they will actually be available for doing SAR.
From the end of para 2:
QuoteScouts will learn the fundamentals of SAR, but the badge will not qualify a young person as a trained searcher.
True, but you only gave part of the quote. This implies it could be something that the troop could do in looking for missing scouts from their own unit or as a community service.
Quote"The Boy Scouts of America's motto is 'Be Prepared'—which sometimes translates to knowing how to respond in an emergency," said Bob Mazzuca, Chief Scout Executive of the Boy Scouts of America. "While we are not encouraging our Scouts to practice these new skills independently, we do want them to be ready to lend a hand to the community, and to each other."
Quote from: krnlpanick on June 07, 2012, 08:07:34 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 07, 2012, 07:38:42 PM
I don't know what you are talking about. You earn merit badges by completeling the requirments.
That is indeed the way it is supposed to be, however I have personally seen many scouts earn awards just because it was time to do awards and they had worked on some of the requirements so they just award them so they don't feel left out. I'm not saying that every troop or unit is like this - and I am sure there are CAP squadrons that have the same problems, but I have witnessed it firsthand in scouting and it really rubs me the wrong way.
As it should! I know it happens.....but we (assumeing you are/were a Scouter) should not stand for it....just we should not stand for it in CAP or any other organisation.
I am inactive for the past 2 years, but I was Bear and then Webelos leader for my oldest son's den and we worked pretty closely with a BS Troop. I saw it as a Webelos leader working with the BS on joint projects and I saw it when I was a scout myself. I absolutely didn't stand for it and in fact that ended up being the reason I left the pack 2 years ago. The Pack Leader overrode my decision to not graduate a webelos into boy scouts even tho he had only been in the program 2 months and hadn't even completed a quarter of his Webelos achievements. Anyhow, I am ramping up to start scouts with my youngest son and will not stand for it there (or in CAP for that matter) either.
Good on you for not letting it slide either!
As an every now and then volunteer at BSA events, I must say, the average scout does not have the maturity and discipline to do SAR. I fear an operational BSA SAR team would turn into a bigger mission with them lost or worse.
Quote from: Woodsy on June 07, 2012, 10:05:52 PM
As an every now and then volunteer at BSA events, I must say, the average scout does not have the maturity and discipline to do SAR. I fear an operational BSA SAR team would turn into a bigger mission with them lost or worse.
Which is why this is not the goal of the SAR merit badge....nor the stated aims of the BSA program.
At most....it would allow individual scouts to assist SAR teams in some form.....maybe in large line search or on trail searches.
No one is suggesting that a BSA troop will be forming SAR teams. We could expect more Explorer/Ventur Post forming SAR teams....if there is an intrests.....and those come 14-21 age group....so the maturity level is a lot higher.
Quote from: Woodsy on June 07, 2012, 10:05:52 PMan operational BSA SAR team
There are no operational BSA SAR teams.
Your respect for the BSA is underwhelming...as a core value, it should be practiced with everyone, not just within CAP.
Quote from: bflynn on June 08, 2012, 02:40:53 AM
Quote from: Woodsy on June 07, 2012, 10:05:52 PMan operational BSA SAR team
There are no operational BSA SAR teams.
Your respect for the BSA is underwhelming...as a core value, it should be practiced with everyone, not just within CAP.
I'm not implying there are any, just saying I hope they don't take this new badge to the next level.
I have the utmost respect for BSA, I've been a scouter for over 20 years, both as a scout and a leader. I am simply being objective. Of course there are exceptions, but there does seem to be a pattern.
My mistake for misundestanding then.
You're in the scouting community. If you have doubts about the scout's ability to navigate and not get lost, then perhaps raising the standard is a good thing...when scouts come to you for a merit badge, make sure they really, really know it. Encourage other leaders to do the same.
Well... It's not so much them getting lost I'd worry about... It's more of one of them running off away from the group and getting hurt, stuck, or lost himself, causing the rest of the group to have to refocus their efforts on him.
The military discipline instilled by CAP causes our cadets to have a different attitude towards that type of thing. I must say, it makes me proud to see a CAP cadet standing beside an average teen.
That said, I'm looking forward to teaching this merit badge (you better believe I already have several emails out to different scoutmasters offering lol) and may even have a few Cadets join me. I will definitely use some CAP stuff in the training.
Quote from: Woodsy on June 08, 2012, 05:30:22 PM
Well... It's not so much them getting lost I'd worry about... It's more of one of them running off away from the group and getting hurt, stuck, or lost himself, causing the rest of the group to have to refocus their efforts on him.
The military discipline instilled by CAP causes our cadets to have a different attitude towards that type of thing. I must say, it makes me proud to see a CAP cadet standing beside an average teen.
That said, I'm looking forward to teaching this merit badge (you better believe I already have several emails out to different scoutmasters offering lol) and may even have a few Cadets join me. I will definitely use some CAP stuff in the training.
How is that any differnt then our 12 year olds running around on ground team?
Having been a scouter and a CAP squadron commander......I see very little difference between the way we control and keep our charges safe.
As someone said before....Boy Scouts simply spend more time in the field the most CAP cadets and of course there are about 830K scouts...and another 500K adult members.....simple odds will show that YES we are more likely to go looking for Scout then a CAP cadet.
Skipping over all the junk about finding lost Boy Scouts and whatnot, I think that you can look at this from two angles. Not only is it familiarization training so you can see if you're interested in it, but also provides a little experience so that if the scout does find himself lost, he can now think about how he can make himself easier to find, because he has a basic knowledge of SAR techniques.
For starters there's no adult program in the BSA - the majority are just chaperons, receiving little to no training themselves.
Our cadets are always lead by someone who has received training and vetting before being allowed to lead, and cadets are not the
core of our ES.
Some BSA Troops get tasked to do searches for missing persons. Most everyone is thinking that search and rescue involves going in the deep woods and trying to find somebody. It isn't uncommon to look for missing people around neigborhoods and parks.
Now that I think about it, anyone can volunteer to do search and rescue without any qualifications.
Quote from: caphornbuckle on June 08, 2012, 07:59:31 PMNow that I think about it, anyone can volunteer to do search and rescue without any qualifications.
They do all the time, and without proper training can actually hinder the search.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 08, 2012, 07:45:06 PM
For starters there's no adult program in the BSA - the majority are just chaperons, receiving little to no training themselves.
Sorry wrong.
QuoteOur cadets are always lead by someone who has received training and vetting before being allowed to lead, and cadets are not the
core of our ES.
Sorry wrong again.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 08, 2012, 08:40:15 PM
Quote from: caphornbuckle on June 08, 2012, 07:59:31 PMNow that I think about it, anyone can volunteer to do search and rescue without any qualifications.
They do all the time, and without proper training can actually hinder the search.
Not if the search manager know how to properly coordinate their actions. That's one point of the SAR Merit Badge....it teachs familurisation skills....so you know NOT to be out just doing your own thing....but enough to actually be helpful to local SAR agency.
Again....something CAP could learn to do.
You all do train your cadets in basic survival, SAR skills, and fieldcraft whether they participate actively in ES or not don't you? If not, you should.
Quote from: ol'fido on June 09, 2012, 02:29:32 PM
You all do train your cadets in basic survival, SAR skills, and fieldcraft whether they participate actively in ES or not don't you? If not, you should.
It's not part of the CP as written, so no. Cadets are not Boy Scouts.
Quote from: ol'fido on June 09, 2012, 02:29:32 PM
You all do train your cadets in basic survival, SAR skills, and fieldcraft whether they participate actively in ES or not don't you? If not, you should.
Where would this ever come up? Outside ES, fieldcraft is not a part of the CP.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 09, 2012, 04:17:57 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on June 09, 2012, 02:29:32 PM
You all do train your cadets in basic survival, SAR skills, and fieldcraft whether they participate actively in ES or not don't you? If not, you should.
Where would this ever come up? Outside ES, fieldcraft is not a part of the CP.
1. It's fun.
2. They learn something.
3. It builds individual confidence and unit cohesion better than most other techniques.
4. If you expose all your cadets to this type of training, you have the basic building blocks in place if they decide to become involved in ES later.
5. Teaching the Cadet Program means teaching cadets about ALL of Civil Air Patrol including the ES portion whether they wish to participate in it actively or not.
6. How are you going to recruit people to participate in ES who don't join to perform ES or even know about it when they do join? Exposing them to it might give them the idea and the incentive that this is something they want to be a part of. It's like handing out free samples at the supermarket. Some might not take it, some may take it and not like it, but a few will say, "Hey, this is kind of cool. Tell me more.".
Going out for a weekend and learning some basic SAR skills, campcraft, and survival in a relaxed, Non-"Let's try and get as many sign offs on our SQTR this weekend as we can." type of environment will build better GT members than a two or three "jumping out our butts" so-called training weekends ever will. I have seen it happen time and again over the years.
ES training is not the "private property" of those members who choose to participate in ES. Everyone should be able to learn some basic skills whether cadet or senior even if they never participate in an actual mission.
We can go out to the woods for a weekend or three and learn anything and everything that a ground team member or leader should know. No SQTRs, no 72/24hr gear, no problem. There is nothing that says a unit can't do this. It may not count towards being "officially" ES qualified but it is doable. This is part of training a well rounded and knowledgeable cadet(or senior).
Come on guys. Figure it out!
Quote from: ol'fido on June 09, 2012, 07:52:06 PMWe can go out to the woods for a weekend or three and learn anything and everything that a ground team member or leader should know. No SQTRs, no 72/24hr gear, no problem. There is nothing that says a unit can't do this. It may not count towards being "officially" ES qualified but it is doable. This is part of training a well rounded and knowledgeable cadet(or senior).
Under what parts of the program would an activity like this be approved?
CAP has a specific lane for this sort of training - ES, and that has pre-requisites and other requirements designed for safety and ORM.
Skirting that under the guise of "general knowledge" does not sound like a good idea.
Outside that lane, I don't see where you can justify this activity, any more then you could go hunting, fly airplanes, or use radio equipment,
outside the prescribed way to do things.
Then there's the issue of who's doing the training - the ES program has a very specific set of training and qualification before you
can train others. When you're a GTL and you take a team out, you've been vetted, you've got insurance coverage, and there's some assumption you'll follow the rules. Who's going to vet the trainer for people just "winging it" (so to speak)? We just let anyone who says they saw a compass once take cadets into the woods and do "woodsy stuff"?
OMFG, nobody said that safety and ORM are going out the window. CAP's specific "lane" for training is for those who wish to become ES qualified and participate in ES missions. Show me where it says that a unit can't go out on a bivouac and run a compass course, teach knot tying, how to build a fire, etc. If I want to get a bunch of cadets qualified for GTM3, I'll have a SET and we'll follow the task guide and dot the i's and cross the t's and all that nice bureaucratic stuff. The purpose of your "lane" is to make sure that members who are participating in actual missions are properly trained, equipped, and lead. It's not there to exclude other members from doing this kind of training at the unit or group level if they so desire and the unit/group commander approves of the activity. The same regs regarding safety, ORM, CPPT, etc. are still there and being applied. The only difference is that nobody is being signed off on a SQTR.
Where does it say you can?
The ORM and other rules don't apply because you're not even meeting the prerequisites to perform that training in the first place.
CAP, Inc., is not going to be inclined to offer protections to members performing training outside the specified curriculum and situations.
Eclipse.....I can go out into the wood with my cadet out side of ES.
Grab the BSA wilderness surivival merit badge book and go have fun!
Hiking......we do that all the time just a unit acitivty. No GES, No GTM, No mission number, no hassles....just good basic ORM.
There's lot of things people can "do" - the why is what never ceases to amaze me.
It's only when things go bad that people say "Seemed like a good idea at the time..."
I wish they had this merit badge when I was in scouts! Would have made it a little easier for me to get Eagle!
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2012, 12:21:03 AM
There's lot of things people can "do" - the why is what never ceases to amaze me.
Team-building, unit morale, life-skills, leadership training, physical fitness, and last but certainly not least, having fun!
As long as safety remains priority one, I don't see any reason in the world why things like this can not be done.
Here is a link to a document that covers a good bit of information on planning activities - while not all-inclusive, I think that any activity that follows this guidance should be 100% ok
http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/COWG_Activity_Planning_Suggestions_EC69149CC9EEE.doc (http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/COWG_Activity_Planning_Suggestions_EC69149CC9EEE.doc)
OK, I get it on the activity level.
And Randy & Lord aren't going on death marches, I just find it difficult to believe that the average cadet, not interested
in ES otherwise, is going to be interested in the same skills on an ad-hoc basis.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2012, 12:57:04 AM
OK, I get it on the activity level.
And Randy & Lord aren't going on death marches, I just find it difficult to believe that the average cadet, not interested
in ES otherwise, is going to be interested in the same skills on an ad-hoc basis.
Context. You deal with urban cadets, he deals with rural. Two mindsets, two (partially overlapping) sets of interests.
Taking cadets on hiking trips outside of an ES context isn't my cup of tea, but I guess if there's a demand for it by cadets.
I think that any activity like this; and by like this I mean not GSAR school, not encampment, and not some other authorized ES training - should have a variety of activities planned. There should be a good mix of stuff for the cadets to do and they can happen at the same time. Cadets interested in ES type stuff can learn some high level skills or even focused training if there is a qualified instructor there, while cadets not interested in doing something ES related can do standard team-building activities. Having larger group activities to build team cohesion is also a good thing to plan. I guess what I am trying to say is that you can plan a successful activity like this that makes everyone happy if you have the staff to support it.
Just my $0.02
Quote from: krnlpanick on June 10, 2012, 12:48:40 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2012, 12:21:03 AM
There's lot of things people can "do" - the why is what never ceases to amaze me.
Team-building, unit morale, life-skills, leadership training, physical fitness, and last but certainly not least, having fun!
As long as safety remains priority one, I don't see any reason in the world why things like this can not be done.
Here is a link to a document that covers a good bit of information on planning activities - while not all-inclusive, I think that any activity that follows this guidance should be 100% ok
http://www_.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/COWG_Activity_Planning_Suggestions_EC69149CC9EEE.doc (http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/COWG_Activity_Planning_Suggestions_EC69149CC9EEE.doc)
+1
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2012, 12:57:04 AM
OK, I get it on the activity level.
And Randy & Lord aren't going on death marches, I just find it difficult to believe that the average cadet, not interested
in ES otherwise, is going to be interested in the same skills on an ad-hoc basis.
I don't understand why my cadets are not interested in ES either....I may get 2-3 who want to do GT stuff. I get 10-15 who simply want to go hiking for an afternoon!
So...being the good CP guy I am.....we tailor our program to meet my cadet's wants and needs. If they wanted to sew toaster cozies or knit......I would take them on a sewing bee.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2012, 12:57:04 AM
OK, I get it on the activity level.
And Randy & Lord aren't going on death marches, I just find it difficult to believe that the average cadet, not interested
in ES otherwise, is going to be interested in the same skills on an ad-hoc basis.
Well, I must not have had average cadets. Some time back, we did an FTX as a part of a local SAREX. We camped overnight, did basic survival, SAR skills, and field craft, and nobody got their undies in a bunch about getting signed off for ES tasks. I'm not even sure we were using SQTRs back then ('02-ish?).
Just curious... How many cadets are not interested in ES? Personally, I haven't met a single one... There are of course tons that don't have any quals, due to lack of opportunities, school, personal situations, etc., but I've never asked a cadet "are you interested in ES" and had them answer "no."
I personally believe that ES should not be optional for cadets. CAP was founded for the primary purpose of ES (coastal patrol era) and ES remains a primary purpose to this day.
I often wonder if we wouldn't be better off splitting the cadet program into a different, independent organization from our ES operators?
I have lots of cadets interested in ES... Until they find out that it requires actual commitment and work. Then I just have a few interested.
Listen, Spaceman, we are planning on having a bivouac of this type sometime this fall. I am shooting for Columbus day weekend. Our previous Group CC was all for it and I am pretty sure the new one will be too. Come on down and play with us for a weekend. I will send you the details later as they become available if you wish.
Quote from: Woodsy on June 10, 2012, 06:59:47 AM
Just curious... How many cadets are not interested in ES? Personally, I haven't met a single one... There are of course tons that don't have any quals, due to lack of opportunities, school, personal situations, etc., but I've never asked a cadet "are you interested in ES" and had them answer "no."
I personally believe that ES should not be optional for cadets. CAP was founded for the primary purpose of ES (coastal patrol era) and ES remains a primary purpose to this day.
I often wonder if we wouldn't be better off splitting the cadet program into a different, independent organization from our ES operators?
That's all well and good....but we already have a full plate of "required" items we have to do.....adding ES to the mix would make progression in the CP even slower.
i think its dangerous that they are teaching the boy scouts this skill without proper instructors because if their friend gets lost and they think that merit badge qualified them to look for him they are in trouble because they A: don't have good training just a basic "101" so to speak B: they don't have survival (24 hour) packs so if they get lost they have no supplies C: they don't have radios or any radio training so they have no reliable communications so if they find him and no one has a cell phone they don't know how to make a stretcher so he has to wait for someone to get back to camp for help D:what do they do if they find him? 1: none of them have the kind of first aid training we do so if they're buddies wounded hes in trouble 2: none of them get the counselling we do so they will have an emotional scar for the rest of their life and all of this is coming from a boy scout so i know when my troop gets the merit badge im going to teach it to them currently i am GTM3 and NC wing is haveing a ground team school and i want to get GTM2
Quote from: Woodsy on June 10, 2012, 06:59:47 AM
Just curious... How many cadets are not interested in ES? Personally, I haven't met a single one... There are of course tons that don't have any quals, due to lack of opportunities, school, personal situations, etc., but I've never asked a cadet "are you interested in ES" and had them answer "no."
I personally believe that ES should not be optional for cadets. CAP was founded for the primary purpose of ES (coastal patrol era) and ES remains a primary purpose to this day.
I often wonder if we wouldn't be better off splitting the cadet program into a different, independent organization from our ES operators?
There are a bunch of cadets in my unit whose interest is NOT going out in the woods. I actually have a cadet who is GTM 1-3 qualified who refuses to do any ES stuff. I don't know why. Guess I need to talk to her at some point. Someone with those quals I need on cadre at my GT academy.
You know it is strange.....when I was a boy scout......I earned the weather merit badge.....never once did I think I was qualfied to do the 5 o'clock weather report.
When I earned my first aid merit badge.....never once did I think I was qualified to anything more then splint a break, bandge a wound, and treat for shock.
First off......the BSA is doing this in conjunction with NESAR.....you know the national professional certifing agency......and if anyone would be worried about scouts going RAMBO.....it would be them.
NESAR is looking at this as a way to get BASIC level knowledge into a pool of people so when they have a Low Risk...High Demand search they can call on the BSA to help out.
In stead of moaning about how we are going to have to go looking for boy scouts.....look at it as an opportunity to increase our ties with the BSA. Aviation Merit Badge, and now SAR Merit Badge.........if the BSA troops in your town are not asking for CAP to help them with that.....then you are missing the boat.
Quote from: 800bestofcap on July 24, 2012, 01:20:58 AM
i think its dangerous that they are teaching the boy scouts this skill without proper instructors because if their friend gets lost and they think that merit badge qualified them to look for him they are in trouble because they A: don't have good training just a basic "101" so to speak B: they don't have survival (24 hour) packs so if they get lost they have no supplies C: they don't have radios or any radio training so they have no reliable communications so if they find him and no one has a cell phone they don't know how to make a stretcher so he has to wait for someone to get back to camp for help D:what do they do if they find him? 1: none of them have the kind of first aid training we do so if they're buddies wounded hes in trouble 2: none of them get the counselling we do so they will have an emotional scar for the rest of their life and all of this is coming from a boy scout so i know when my troop gets the merit badge im going to teach it to them currently i am GTM3 and NC wing is haveing a ground team school and i want to get GTM2
Wow.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 24, 2012, 03:03:58 AM
Quote from: 800bestofcap on July 24, 2012, 01:20:58 AM
i think its dangerous that they are teaching the boy scouts this skill without proper instructors because if their friend gets lost and they think that merit badge qualified them to look for him they are in trouble because they A: don't have good training just a basic "101" so to speak B: they don't have survival (24 hour) packs so if they get lost they have no supplies C: they don't have radios or any radio training so they have no reliable communications so if they find him and no one has a cell phone they don't know how to make a stretcher so he has to wait for someone to get back to camp for help D:what do they do if they find him? 1: none of them have the kind of first aid training we do so if they're buddies wounded hes in trouble 2: none of them get the counselling we do so they will have an emotional scar for the rest of their life and all of this is coming from a boy scout so i know when my troop gets the merit badge im going to teach it to them currently i am GTM3 and NC wing is haveing a ground team school and i want to get GTM2
Wow.
Yeah, I don't even know where to begin on that one. :o
He's been sent a PM.
Quote from: ol'fido on July 24, 2012, 03:21:41 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 24, 2012, 03:03:58 AM
Quote from: 800bestofcap on July 24, 2012, 01:20:58 AM
i think its dangerous that they are teaching the boy scouts this skill without proper instructors because if their friend gets lost and they think that merit badge qualified them to look for him they are in trouble because they A: don't have good training just a basic "101" so to speak B: they don't have survival (24 hour) packs so if they get lost they have no supplies C: they don't have radios or any radio training so they have no reliable communications so if they find him and no one has a cell phone they don't know how to make a stretcher so he has to wait for someone to get back to camp for help D:what do they do if they find him? 1: none of them have the kind of first aid training we do so if they're buddies wounded hes in trouble 2: none of them get the counselling we do so they will have an emotional scar for the rest of their life and all of this is coming from a boy scout so i know when my troop gets the merit badge im going to teach it to them currently i am GTM3 and NC wing is haveing a ground team school and i want to get GTM2
Wow.
Yeah, I don't even know where to begin on that one. :o
I do have to jump in with this little note and I'll leave it after that...
Merit Badges were created to give a scout an orientation of many career fields. It is an introduction for boys who have not decided what they want to be when they grow up. It is not a certification program nor does it go in depth on any one particular subject. CAP does not send cadets into combat after completing PJOC and scouts do not go on SAR missions after completing a merit badge.
Edited due to misplacement of statement
As an eagle scout, a merit badge counselor, an arrowman, a former cadet, a two time graduate of NESA, and a professional federal emergency manager I have to say that I am disappointed in how this conversation has progressed.
Scouting taught me more practical skills and a heck of a lot more about character than CAP did. CAP taught me discipline and bearing. Combining the two is what made me who I am and I have gone pretty far in this profession for being only 24.
If you are a senior member and have doubts about the ability of scouters to teach SAR then take the leap and apply to be a counselor. You may be surprised to note that you will have to provide proof that you are competent to teach the badge just like everyone else. If you are a scouter and have doubts about your scouts being mature enough to conduct a search then teach them what they need to know. Scouting would be in pretty poor shape if all of our scouts were not mature enough to earn the tougher merit badges like lifesaving, first aid, emergency preparedness, and orienteering. Consider the thousands of scouts on staff at summer camps and high adventure bases every year who conduct real searches, often without assistance from what some in this forum would consider "real searchers".
I leave you with a final point to consider. Administrator Fugate is pushing his whole community doctrine pretty hard and a lot of us at the top levels of EM are adopting it rapidly. You might not want to publicly deride a valuable partner. You might instead try to help them out.
http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=4941 (http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=4941)
Quote from: nesagsar on August 13, 2012, 11:47:52 AM
As an eagle scout, a merit badge counselor, an arrowman, a former cadet, a two time graduate of NESA, and a professional federal emergency manager I have to say that I am disappointed in how this conversation has progressed.
Scouting taught me more practical skills and a heck of a lot more about character than CAP did. CAP taught me discipline and bearing. Combining the two is what made me who I am and I have gone pretty far in this profession for being only 24.
If you are a senior member and have doubts about the ability of scouters to teach SAR then take the leap and apply to be a counselor. You may be surprised to note that you will have to provide proof that you are competent to teach the badge just like everyone else. If you are a scouter and have doubts about your scouts being mature enough to conduct a search then teach them what they need to know. Scouting would be in pretty poor shape if all of our scouts were not mature enough to earn the tougher merit badges like lifesaving, first aid, emergency preparedness, and orienteering. Consider the thousands of scouts on staff at summer camps and high adventure bases every year who conduct real searches, often without assistance from what some in this forum would consider "real searchers".
I leave you with a final point to consider. Administrator Fugate is pushing his whole community doctrine pretty hard and a lot of us at the top levels of EM are adopting it rapidly. You might not want to publicly deride a valuable partner. You might instead try to help them out.
http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=4941 (http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=4941)
coming from me, an Eagle Scout, I totally agree. I am a senior member in CAP now, and what we do in CAP is nearly a reflection of BSA except there are no campouts, wilderness survival camps (1 week, hunt your own food, find your own water). I love what I do now in CAP and I love what I did in BSA... the biggest thing for both organizations to understand is that we are all on the same team, serving the same country. We both have the same flag on our uniforms!
Thank you nesagsar for your post.
We do however hold slightly different values...
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 31, 2012, 05:03:23 AM
We do however hold slightly different values...
What part of the scout oath, scout law, scout motto, and scout slogan do you have an issue with?
Quote from: nesagsar on August 31, 2012, 09:02:17 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 31, 2012, 05:03:23 AM
We do however hold slightly different values...
What part of the scout oath, scout law, scout motto, and scout slogan do you have an issue with?
A Scout is Reverent I Will do my duty to God. And how the BSA enforces it.
There are ways around that issue if the adult leaders are tolerant and willing to help rather than hinder the scout's progress.
Quote from: nesagsar on August 31, 2012, 02:25:02 PM
There are ways around that issue if the adult leaders are tolerant and willing to help rather than hinder the scout's progress.
So, violate the organisation's membership rules while you're teaching "ethics"?
I personally have no issue whatsoever with a private organization maintaining whatever stance they see fit. That doesn't mean I
have to agree with them, but it does mean you either comply or you disengage. Circumventing the clearly stated rules in the name
of "good for all", isn't.
For the record, I was a scout and so are my kids.
Requirements are here:
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Search_%26_Rescue (http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Search_%26_Rescue)
Most of it is classroom rather that field work. With as many volunteer opportunities that are available for the average person to get involved in SAR work, this looks like a way to get the youth with a natural bent toward the work, but no knowledge of it's existence introduced to the community. Like people have been mentioning, many of the MBs are meant to be "Hey, I didn't know this stuff existed, but I think it's really cool and want to know more" experiences.
I still see this as a recruiting tool. A group of troops in my area that fall under a common religious affiliation is having a big camp this November and they've asked me if I would put something together for a Saturday activity.
Quote from: nesagsar on August 31, 2012, 02:25:02 PM
There are ways around that issue if the adult leaders are tolerant and willing to help rather than hinder the scout's progress.
Which violates the the frist scout Law. A Scout is Trustworthy.
Don't get me wrong....I like the BSA....a lot......but I have still have problems with this.
Quote from: Walkman on August 31, 2012, 03:02:48 PM
Requirements are here:
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Search_%26_Rescue (http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Search_%26_Rescue)
Most of it is classroom rather that field work. With as many volunteer opportunities that are available for the average person to get involved in SAR work, this looks like a way to get the youth with a natural bent toward the work, but no knowledge of it's existence introduced to the community. Like people have been mentioning, many of the MBs are meant to be "Hey, I didn't know this stuff existed, but I think it's really cool and want to know more" experiences.
I still see this as a recruiting tool. A group of troops in my area that fall under a common religious affiliation is having a big camp this November and they've asked me if I would put something together for a Saturday activity.
Even it is not a recruiting tool....it is certainly an opportunity for closer ties with the BSA.
I am currently looking into getting to be a merit badge counselor for SAR, Aviation, Electronics, First Aid....just to name a few. CAP could easily be the go to people for SAR and aviation merit badge in most communities.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 31, 2012, 12:41:15 PM
Quote from: nesagsar on August 31, 2012, 09:02:17 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 31, 2012, 05:03:23 AM
We do however hold slightly different values...
What part of the scout oath, scout law, scout motto, and scout slogan do you have an issue with?
A Scout is Reverent I Will do my duty to God. And how the BSA enforces it.
Add to that their views on homosexuals (in line with Russia's), and they are basically Octebriata and Pioneri. It's a good program for kids I suppose, but they won't be seeing my children.
RiverAux, are you the same RiverAux from Fredsplace? If so, it's tc1uscg.. just to clarify who I am..
Well guys, having spent 20 years active duty in the Coast Guard, graduate from both national and inland SAR schools, involved in hundreds of SAR cases, having been involved with boy scouts since 1997, the proud father of an eagle scout and of a star scout and serving as an asst scout master for our troop since 2001, I'm amazed at some of the negativity from what I thought were some professional people. Some of your remarks is just out of line but I'm sure the ones who talk smack about just what the boy scouts are trying to do with this badge, you can go to bed tonight, sleep sound as we are not trying to pee on your territory or outsource your jobs to a bunch of 12 year olds. However, I'm sure if we can teach monkeys to fly, we can teach them how to find a senior citizen in the woods. As far as scouts getting lost, I guess a CAP flyer has never had an in-flight emergency or crashed. Just saying.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 31, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 31, 2012, 12:41:15 PM
Quote from: nesagsar on August 31, 2012, 09:02:17 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 31, 2012, 05:03:23 AM
We do however hold slightly different values...
What part of the scout oath, scout law, scout motto, and scout slogan do you have an issue with?
A Scout is Reverent I Will do my duty to God. And how the BSA enforces it.
Add to that their views on homosexuals (in line with Russia's), and they are basically Octebriata and Pioneri. It's a good program for kids I suppose, but they won't be seeing my children.
Gee, the military ONCE had this same view. However, I'm sure reading between your lines, you don't feel we should discriminate. Well, we do. We do a lot. We discriminate against convicted felons, ANYONE who is listed as a sex offender (regardless what degree or offense it might have been). We discriminate against anyone who has a record of battery or abuse rather it's beating children or their spouse. We discriminate against anyone that could be a threat to the boys. Heck, we even discriminate against smokers. Not saying your GAY people are a threat but they do make people feel uncomfortable so that's enough for the policy, for now at least. Now, it took the Navy years before it shaved off its beards. It took the Coast Guard till 1984 to do the same. It took the military years before we allowed women be in charge of units designed for combat. Matter in fact, I think it was the CG who first allowed women to command 95ft patrol boats. We discriminate against raciest. So, as far as the GAY thing goes, I can bet, in about 20 or so years, you might see gays be open and be in scouts. However, till the MAGORITY of parents keep telling the scouts they don't want gays mixing with the boys, I can bet that's going to change anytime soon. Now, you can sit back and pick on one thing the scouts discriminate against, but as you can see, I'm sure there are MANY parents out there today who are happy with our standards. So, you may choose to keep your kids out of the program. But your just cheating them out of an experience that just might serve them one day. I never was a scout myself but I have one son, an eagle scout, and one as a star scout who are. All I can say is it's just as enjoyable to watch them start their first fire, cook a meal for 20 and sleep in all kinds of weather. As good as it is to seem them get their first touch down, or drive off on their first date. Priceless. Just something to think about before you pull this gay card thing mate.
Derail:
QuoteHowever, till the MAGORITY of parents keep telling the scouts they don't want gays mixing with the boys, I can bet that's going to change anytime soon.
This is my favorite misconception about the "gays" that they are some kind of evil predatory type of animal out to have sex with unsuspecting children. BSA allows women to be scout leaders: looking at the news on what seems like a weekly basis anymore there is always some story about some trusted female teacher that has had sex with one or more male students under 18. No one seems to worry about that though....straight ok, you wont ever do anything bad, but oh that gay man, well he is definately going to rape a little boy becase he is.....ah um...well gay?
QuoteSo, you may choose to keep your kids out of the program. But your just cheating them out of an experience that just might serve them one day.
Yup, good plan, try to teach your kids values that you think are appropriate...but cave in so they can get a good experience. " ....yes son treat everyone with respect, never judge a book by its cover...oh wait except people who are gay, or dont believe in God...they dont count"
Or if your son happens to be gay or doesnt practice an approved relegion; then its technically the BSA that is cheating them out of an experience (unless you tell them to lie about it just to get the benies.....)
QuoteI'm sure there are MANY parents out there today who are happy with our standards
I am sure there were many parents out there that were happy that schools or jobs or neighborhoods excluded blacks or jews or communists.....that doesnt mean that it was ok just because they were happy with it. It just means they support the policy of discrimination and exclusion. Would you still support the progam if they decided to start exlcuding some other groups.... muslims, hispanics, the handicap?.... is it ok still because its a private orgnizaton?
QuoteAll I can say is it's just as enjoyable to watch them start their first fire, cook a meal for 20 and sleep in all kinds of weather. As good as it is to seem them get their first touch down, or drive off on their first date. Priceless. Just something to think about before you pull this gay card thing mate.
Huh? I fail to see how "the gay card" changes any of that or otherwise diminshes the value of the experience. Or are you saying that if the BSA is forced to allow gay scouts and leaders the organization will just fold up and die rather than adapt to societes accepted standards of behavior, thus cheating you out of said priceless experiences?
rant comlete: I had a thought there more in line with the actual topic.. but I lost it somewhere....
mk
Quote from: RadiomanUSCG on September 28, 2012, 01:45:55 AM
Gee, the military ONCE had this same view. However, I'm sure reading between your lines, you don't feel we should discriminate. Well, we do. We do a lot. We discriminate against convicted felons, ANYONE who is listed as a sex offender (regardless what degree or offense it might have been). We discriminate against anyone who has a record of battery or abuse rather it's beating children or their spouse. We discriminate against anyone that could be a threat to the boys. Heck, we even discriminate against smokers. Not saying your GAY people are a threat but they do make people feel uncomfortable so that's enough for the policy, for now at least. Now, it took the Navy years before it shaved off its beards. It took the Coast Guard till 1984 to do the same. It took the military years before we allowed women be in charge of units designed for combat. Matter in fact, I think it was the CG who first allowed women to command 95ft patrol boats. We discriminate against raciest. So, as far as the GAY thing goes, I can bet, in about 20 or so years, you might see gays be open and be in scouts. However, till the MAGORITY of parents keep telling the scouts they don't want gays mixing with the boys, I can bet that's going to change anytime soon. Now, you can sit back and pick on one thing the scouts discriminate against, but as you can see, I'm sure there are MANY parents out there today who are happy with our standards. So, you may choose to keep your kids out of the program. But your just cheating them out of an experience that just might serve them one day. I never was a scout myself but I have one son, an eagle scout, and one as a star scout who are. All I can say is it's just as enjoyable to watch them start their first fire, cook a meal for 20 and sleep in all kinds of weather. As good as it is to seem them get their first touch down, or drive off on their first date. Priceless. Just something to think about before you pull this gay card thing mate.
Discriminating against convicted felons? Sorry, but you sorta forfeited your right to lead any sort of normal life once the gavel went down and you started your prison sentence. OK, that's a bit extreme I admit, because a lot of folks who have completed their sentences and probation and parole get a certificate of restoration of civil rights. Hell, some guy even petitioned then-President Clinton before he left office for a pardon so he could fly for CAP. I don't know what the circumstances were but I think it was granted.
I don't call keeping felons, rapists, child molesters, murderers, thieves, and embezzlers out of CAP any sort of discrimination. We don't even have any sort of rules other than "good moral character" keeping gays out of CAP. That codicil would also potentially eliminate pagans, Wiccans, Druids, people with alternative sexual lifestyles other than homosexuality, illegal aliens (yes I said it), and Catholic priests as well.
I'm not gonna go into the whole gay thing because to me it's a non-issue. In my 30-odd years of being in CAP I have yet to meet someone that I even suspected was gay. Not to say that there aren't any at all, I just haven't met any.
Discriminating against smokers? Where in the rules does it say we can't smoke? In CAP we have pretty much the same rules about smoking with one difference: we just can't do it in front of the cadets.
My point is, officially we, meaning the CAP corporation, are not an organization that discriminates willy-nilly. We have rules in place to protect not only the members but the organization from lawsuits and dangerous potential members. That's not discrimination; it's just good common sense.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 28, 2012, 04:38:07 AM
Discriminating against convicted felons? Sorry, but you sorta forfeited your right to lead any sort of normal life once the gavel went down and you started your prison sentence. OK, that's a bit extreme I admit, because a lot of folks who have completed their sentences and probation and parole get a certificate of restoration of civil rights. Hell, some guy even petitioned then-President Clinton before he left office for a pardon so he could fly for CAP. I don't know what the circumstances were but I think it was granted.
CAP is a non-profit corporation. I don't think the President has any say in who we allow in to CAP nor does he have any say in who we allow to be a mission pilot for that matter. Appeal to the President for a pardon, sure, happens all the time. Appeal to the President to make CAP let you fly? I doubt it.
To be fair to RadiomanUSCG.......yes we do discriminate as the word is defined by websters.
We do not discriminate based on gender, religion, race, disability, sexual orintation as defined by the DoD policy.
That being said....CAP and the BSA have an absolute right to decide who they are going to let into their organisations.........hence the discussion.
Just a side question....how does CAP discriminate against smokers? That's a new one to me.
Another RM another rant. Given the recent revalation of molestation and cover up in the BSA (guess how many were gays?) I think their policies look even sillier than before.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
We do not discriminate based on sexual orintation as defined by the DoD policy.
Cite please.
I'm not saying we do, or should, just where is that in the regs?
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 04:47:45 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
We do not discriminate based on sexual orintation as defined by the DoD policy.
Cite please.
I'm not saying we do, or should, just where is that in the regs?
Every member has to go through the non discrimination training when they first join. Cadets and seniors alike.
Quote from: CAPR 36-1 link=http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf
Section 2: Civil Air Patrol Policy of Nondiscrimination. It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no member shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination in any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap). It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no applicant meeting CAP's minimum age requirement will be denied membership in CAP on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap).
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 28, 2012, 04:51:41 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 04:47:45 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
We do not discriminate based on sexual orintation as defined by the DoD policy.
Cite please.
I'm not saying we do, or should, just where is that in the regs?
Every member has to go through the non discrimination training when they first join. Cadets and seniors alike.
Yes, but by CAP regulation, Sexual Orientation is NOT a protected class. See above quote from 36-1.
This is true according to the text. But I wouldn't want to be the one to try and fight it. I think any member would be dumb to try and discriminate against sexual orientation, IMHO.
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 28, 2012, 05:01:07 PM
This is true according to the text. But I wouldn't want to be the one to try and fight it. I think any member would be dumb to try and discriminate against sexual orientation, IMHO.
I'm not saying I would either. I'm just saying what
is. I can't abide false information being put out.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 05:50:26 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 28, 2012, 05:01:07 PM
This is true according to the text. But I wouldn't want to be the one to try and fight it. I think any member would be dumb to try and discriminate against sexual orientation, IMHO.
I'm not saying I would either. I'm just saying what is. I can't abide false information being put out.
Not mentioned because it's a non-factor.
CAP never had a ban on Gays. CAP never had a DADT. CAP has no need to lay it out as a protected class (which I do not believe it is, federally), or as a "now allowed" type of deal.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 28, 2012, 05:54:00 PM
Not mentioned because it's a non-factor.
CAP never had a ban on Gays. CAP never had a DADT. CAP has no need to lay it out as a protected class (which I do not believe it is, federally), or as a "now allowed" type of deal.
See:
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
To be fair to RadiomanUSCG.......yes we do discriminate as the word is defined by websters.
We do not discriminate based on gender, religion, race, disability, sexual orintation as defined by the DoD policy.
That being said....CAP and the BSA have an absolute right to decide who they are going to let into their organisations.........hence the discussion.
Just a side question....how does CAP discriminate against smokers? That's a new one to me.
bold for emphasis. That is not what the regs say. That is the point I'm trying to make.
The regs don't say anything. Lordmonar was wrong on origin, but he's not wrong on the policy we hold.
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 28, 2012, 03:09:04 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 28, 2012, 04:38:07 AM
Discriminating against convicted felons? Sorry, but you sorta forfeited your right to lead any sort of normal life once the gavel went down and you started your prison sentence. OK, that's a bit extreme I admit, because a lot of folks who have completed their sentences and probation and parole get a certificate of restoration of civil rights. Hell, some guy even petitioned then-President Clinton before he left office for a pardon so he could fly for CAP. I don't know what the circumstances were but I think it was granted.
CAP is a non-profit corporation. I don't think the President has any say in who we allow in to CAP nor does he have any say in who we allow to be a mission pilot for that matter. Appeal to the President for a pardon, sure, happens all the time. Appeal to the President to make CAP let you fly? I doubt it.
What happened was he was denied membership due to something he did as a youth and it was hindering his application. He appealed to Clinton for a pardon so he could join. Let me see if I can find the link.
here it is:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2026&dat=19981225&id=uswqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6dAFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6483,2122486 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2026&dat=19981225&id=uswqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6dAFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6483,2122486)
Anyone else notice the article on Bin Laden in the lower left?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 28, 2012, 06:18:29 PM
The regs don't say anything. Lordmonar was wrong on origin, but he's not wrong on the policy we hold.
Yes they do. Yes he is on one detail.
Quote from: CAPR 36-1 link=http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf
Section 2: Civil Air Patrol Policy of Nondiscrimination. It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no member shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination in any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap). It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no applicant meeting CAP's minimum age requirement will be denied membership in CAP on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap).
There is no mention of sexual orientation being a protected class, and thus no protection.
You don't have to like it. That is a direct quote of the entire paragraph in CAPR 36-01. Thus, a commander
can deny membership if said applicant if so desired, and the member does not have any protection or recourse (other than going to a different unit.)
I'm not saying that they would or should, just
can.
Quote from: NY Wing King on September 28, 2012, 07:59:47 PM
Anyone else notice the article on Bin Laden in the lower left?
*shudder*
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 08:20:10 PM
I'm not saying that they would or should, just can.
And then one whiff of this to NHQ, and the CC gets replaced and the member, if passing the background check becomes a member.
I seriously doubt NHQ would want that type of egg on their face if something like that hit the media.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 28, 2012, 08:46:41 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 08:20:10 PM
I'm not saying that they would or should, just can.
And then one whiff of this to NHQ, and the CC gets replaced and the member, if passing the background check becomes a member.
What reg was broken? You may not agree, and I understand what you are saying, but there is grounds for an IG complaint if the CC was removed.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 28, 2012, 08:46:41 PM
I seriously doubt NHQ would want that type of egg on their face if something like that hit the media.
I agree, but the CC has that right to make those calls, and NHQ should back up the CC as there was nothing improperly applied by the regs. NHQ can always amend the reg to include that protection, if so chosen by the powers that be. Until then, they get to deal if it does.
Gee, from the response, seems I touched a nerve. Go back and READ my post fly guys. I would have ASSUMED that the AF enlists people who can think between the lines, but I've been wrong before. Here, I'll make it easy. When the dinosaurs are all dead and gone (you know, the ones who write policy?), you will continue to see pockets of resistance accepting a life style that the rule makers find left of center. Now, as we have seen, some policy has changed but go back and look at history. You can’t ask the majority to accept a life style they feel is wrong. And funny thing too. Those of you who are serving in the AF (military in general) knew how the military treats it’s females and their rules on gays, but you still re-enlisted or stayed in. So, does it make you feel big beating up on an organization that has done more good than harm to those who have earn the rank of eagle? It’s a private organization who has ties to the military rather anyone likes it or not. The military recognizes the skills these boys bring to the table and that’s why when they leave boot camp, they leave one rank above the normal recruit. So, why not write your fearless AF General and question them why the military pays homage to a bunch of kids who are being taught to be homophobic? I’m sure that will go well for ya.
The military isn’t perfect. Our govt isn’t perfect and nor are the Boy Scouts, 4H or FHA organizations. Everyone still has their pet peeves but I think for the most part, we are trying to work it out or wait it out. As far as I’m concerned, the military still discriminates against women but that’s another thread. This one has been hijacked long enough. :-X
Now, back to the SUBJECT of this thread. The scouts SAR merit badge seems like a mix of wilderness survival, first aid, Emergency prep, camping, hiking, orienteering and with a touch of safety. One poster took a stab at how lame it was. We are not teaching these “kids” to take over a rescue coordination center but to learn and respect the planning and execution process. Maybe it will teach them not to become a statistic. Some of our eagles went on to be EMT’s, Firemen, Army medics, 2 brothers are both Air Force with one a PJ and the other, well, he rather people not know but he travels a lot ;-) and OH MY GOD, even a Coast Guard boarding officer. We had a couple who worked with the county sheriff during the summer in a program that put them on horses and atv’s during search activities (under supervision of course). They will learn the lingo, methods and what goes on at from the command level down to the different branches of the SAR team(s). I really fail to see why anyone has a problem with that. If a scout or group of scouts learn something that saves someone’s life one day, even if it’s their own, then the program is worth it. I’m sure none of you have a problem with that. But like I said, I could be wrong. ::)
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 04:47:45 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
We do not discriminate based on sexual orintation as defined by the DoD policy.
Cite please.
I'm not saying we do, or should, just where is that in the regs?
We follow DoD policy........now sexual orintation is not written into the policy directive.....but the DEFACTO DoD policy is not to discriminate due to sexual orintation.....escpecially after DODT was recended.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2012, 09:53:26 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 04:47:45 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
We do not discriminate based on sexual orintation as defined by the DoD policy.
Cite please.
I'm not saying we do, or should, just where is that in the regs?
We follow DoD policy........now sexual orintation is not written into the policy directive.....but the DEFACTO DoD policy is not to discriminate due to sexual orintation.....escpecially after DODT was recended.
Again. Cite please.
Not just the troll. Doesn't actually know where he's at.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 28, 2012, 10:06:59 PM
Not just the troll. Doesn't actually know where he's at.
As a matter of fact, I know exactly where I'm at. If there is evidence of what he is saying, then I'd like to see it. I don't take just flapping gums. I have a cite saying that sexual orientation is NOT a protected class. If we are following DoD policy, I'd like to see something from CAP stating we will follow that policy. Until then, I have to believe that anybody says that it is a protected class, is wrong.
We have to follow our regs, manuals and policies, not
just what we think is right.
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 28, 2012, 05:01:07 PM
This is true according to the text. But I wouldn't want to be the one to try and fight it. I think any member would be dumb to try and discriminate against sexual orientation, IMHO.
Got the best advice a bunch of years ago from the (then) wing legal officer on how to handle these type of questions:
"Call me."
This removes you - local commander - from having to make a Corporate Level decision. It will be run through the appropiate decision makers and you will be advised on what to do.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 09:59:17 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2012, 09:53:26 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 04:47:45 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
We do not discriminate based on sexual orintation as defined by the DoD policy.
Cite please.
I'm not saying we do, or should, just where is that in the regs?
We follow DoD policy........now sexual orintation is not written into the policy directive.....but the DEFACTO DoD policy is not to discriminate due to sexual orintation.....escpecially after DODT was recended.
Again. Cite please.
In my 22 years on active duty I have seen the policy change.....back in the 80's behing a homosexual was a bar for employment, security clearnces, ect. Now it is not. Ergo the defacto policy, that is even if it is not written down, is that the DoD does not discriminate based on sexual peference.
On the military side of things....back in the 80's being a homosexual got you kicked out and could get you sent to jail. Then DADT came out and you gould be a homosexual but you could not get caught being a homosexual....basicly codifying the status quo at the time....it means you could get kicked out but you could not go to jail. Now with the repeal of DADT homosexuals can serve openly.
Ergo.....they are not discriminated against. Yep they are not a protected class as defined by law.....but policy is that the are not to be discrimated against.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 10:40:12 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 28, 2012, 10:06:59 PM
Not just the troll. Doesn't actually know where he's at.
As a matter of fact, I know exactly where I'm at. If there is evidence of what he is saying, then I'd like to see it. I don't take just flapping gums. I have a cite saying that sexual orientation is NOT a protected class. If we are following DoD policy, I'd like to see something from CAP stating we will follow that policy. Until then, I have to believe that anybody says that it is a protected class, is wrong.
We have to follow our regs, manuals and policies, not just what we think is right.
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/102002p.pdf (http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/102002p.pdf)
I know about the DoD policy. I was in when it came down the line. Where is a cite, from CAP, that we follow said policy?
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 11:50:56 PM
I know about the DoD policy. I was in when it came down the line. Where is a cite, from CAP, that we follow said policy?
That would be CAPR 36-1....which was written before the DOD directive.......and while it does not explictly state CAP follows DoD policy......it does not take a brain surgeon to see that it does imply that we will follow all of DoD's policy.....and I feel certain that if CAP were to discriminate agains homosexuals then the DoD would be forced to pull their funding as defined in THEIR polcy.
So........since I am older than ten and can read a reg enough to keep me out of jail for 22 years on AD.........I again state that it is policy that CAP does not discriminate against people due to their sexual orintation.
If you disagree.....okay.....your wing LO is the place to go for clarification.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 28, 2012, 10:40:12 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 28, 2012, 10:06:59 PM
Not just the troll. Doesn't actually know where he's at.
As a matter of fact, I know exactly where I'm at. If there is evidence of what he is saying, then I'd like to see it. I don't take just flapping gums. I have a cite saying that sexual orientation is NOT a protected class. If we are following DoD policy, I'd like to see something from CAP stating we will follow that policy. Until then, I have to believe that anybody says that it is a protected class, is wrong.
We have to follow our regs, manuals and policies, not just what we think is right.
Sorry didn't see pg3. That was gained at RMlite
And what does any of this have to do with the SAR Merit Badge?
Quote from: caphornbuckle on September 29, 2012, 10:09:40 PM
And what does any of this have to do with the SAR Merit Badge?
Because SAR = Sexuality And Religion.
No?
Sorry....
Because some people think the fate of the world revolves around gay rights and never pass up a chance to remind us about it.
1960s:
Because some people think the fate of the world revolves around black rights and never pass up a chance to remind us about it.
'first they came for...'
Rights are a slippery slope.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 30, 2012, 03:59:35 PM
1960s:
Because some people think the fate of the world revolves around black rights and never pass up a chance to remind us about it.
'first they came for...'
Rights are a slippery slope.
1970s:
Because some people think the fate of the world revolves around women's right and never pass up a change to remind us about it.
It never ends. Causeheads always find something to protest about/for. They find a world threatening issue, and exploit it. For about a week.
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 30, 2012, 03:35:35 PM
Because some people think the fate of the world revolves around gay rights and never pass up a chance to remind us about it.
One injustice at a time.
From the second paragraph in the announcement:
"Scouts will learn the fundamentals of SAR, but the badge will not qualify a young person as a trained searcher. While the BSA seeks to equip young people with relevant and useful skills, the organization stresses that Scouts should never attempt a search or rescue on their own. "
Bravo to Scouting for exposing their members to an important skill set.
EDIT: Oops, I missed pages 2-6 before posting. Doh! :o