Sorry to bring this one up folks but my mind was kind of blown when i read this. I was sent this by one of the cadets that attended NBB and was on my flight this past year, she asked if i could attend (beside the point).
"North Carolina Wing's first Ranger Training weekend to be held at Camp Butner NGTS. Training will be in three different training squadrons. Bravo Squadron will train new cadets who have little or no emergency services experience. Alpha Squadron will train experienced cadets/seniors who are at least GTM2/T qualified and have a high level of motivation. Finally Tango Squadron will train GTM1/T or GTL qualified personnel in Ranger skills. Topics to be covered in all tracks will include land navigation, wilderness survival, search techniques, and rope work (possibly to include rappelling).
Persons interested should send a CAPF31 (cadets) or a CAPF17 (seniors) to NCWG HQ attn Ranger Training with a check for $20.
All personnel will bivouac in the field rain or shine. You will eat food out of your pack for the weekend.
Recommended gear list will be posted on the wing website under Emergency Services."
#1. Do we really need another "ranger" program?
#2. Are we now going to have to deal with every wing forming its own "ranger's"
#3. Can anyone please tell me what "ranger skills" are??
I'm just so lost as to why we need another program...i thought Pennsylvania's "ranger program" was the only one. (because they are getting a large pay check from vanguard)
I'm am all for in the field training and whatnot, but come on, why do we feel the need to call ourselves "rangers"??
::) >:(
So, if it was an ES mission skills training pipeline but it was just called it something else, there'd be no problem?
Frankly, if the only bone we have to pick about training is the name, then I think you're in a good place. Could the name be better? Maybe. But having quality training and qualified trainers is probably more important than the name.
Training is seldom a bad thing. The problem here is what seems to follow the "Ranger" training, the almost inevitable rush toward bling and developing the elitist attitudes. Just call it SAR or GT training and move on.
Quote from: Pylon on October 08, 2010, 10:06:50 AM
So, if it was an ES mission skills training pipeline but it was just called it something else, there'd be no problem?
Frankly, if the only bone we have to pick about training is the name, then I think you're in a good place. Could the name be better? Maybe. But having quality training and qualified trainers is probably more important than the name.
Agree sir, on the fact that training is way more important than the name. I just cant understand why it seems to me we have a need to call these things "ranger" training.
I am a GBD, GTL, UDF, MRO, FLM, FLS.... i must have missed the part about needing "ranger skills" to perform those duty's, and i would still like to know...what are the "ranger skills"?
Or can we admit that the title "ranger" is just used to get kids and unmotivated SM's into ES?
Quote from: NCRblues on October 08, 2010, 07:16:31 AMI'm am all for in the field training and whatnot, but come on, why do we feel the need to call ourselves "rangers"??
Most likely for lack of a better term. "Rangers" are people who "range over" a wilderness area. There are forest rangers, park rangers, Army rangers, and apparently CAP rangers too.
I can't wait to see what the "hat" looks like for this one.. ;-)
I have to say though, I hardly think a weekend qualifies for anything "ranger", it's just a really one full day, by the time you deal with instructing on how to setup a shelter/tent/whatever, and all the related lolly-gagging..
Krapenhoeffer, fox two
"You are on a SAR team. You do a job that paid rescuers don't want to bother with. You are not a special forces commando ninja. In fact, 'special forces commando ninja' skills are detrimental to your success. There are others who do this in in a t-shirt and jeans. Be proud of the fact that you get to wear a uniform. Don't get an over inflated ego, or you will not get far in GSAR."
Or....we can just ignore the term. We thank the wing for doing a good job of training.
Ranger skills.... 8)
Small unit movement
Blowing stuff up
Calling in airstrikes to blow stuff up
Mountaineering to get to the place to blow stuff up
Small boat operations
Saying HOORAH!!!!!! a lot
PA Rangers skills..... ::)
Wear orange and white stuff, act cool
Run around the woods
Kudos to North Carolina, my birthplace. :clap:
I'm Ready! Let's go Rangers!
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2099/137/58/571480372/n571480372_1801576_5706.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2099/137/58/571480372/n571480372_1801575_5311.jpg)
Nice patch, too!
(http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/profile-ak-snc4/object3/684/87/n45986951748_6724.jpg)
Man! If I still had mine I would break it out every time we did gear tasking!
Some training materials...
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2099/137/58/571480372/n571480372_1802078_6459.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2099/137/58/571480372/n571480372_1802082_7591.jpg)
Eclipse, NOW that is funny ;) ;D :clap:
Quote from: Senior on October 09, 2010, 10:48:38 PM
Ranger skills.... 8)
Small unit movement
Blowing stuff up
Calling in airstrikes to blow stuff up
Mountaineering to get to the place to blow stuff up
Small boat operations
Saying HOORAH!!!!!! a lot
PA Rangers skills..... ::)
Wear orange and white stuff, act cool
Run around the woods
Kudos to North Carolina, my birthplace. :clap:
I know some Rangers that would die before saying HOORAH!!! They wouldn't want to be confused with Marines.
IF this training is in line with what is taught at NESA, then the only thing wrong with this is the name and, yes, we have much worse things to worry about. There is a push to establish regional schools that teach this curriculum and perhaps this NCWG school could be part of that. It was done in TXWG this year with great success. But... if it significantly deviates from what is taught as part of the national curriculum I feel that we have a problem.
We need to be pushing forward as an organization to standardize our training. If one wing or group is addressing an area not covered by another, we should be sharing that knowledge or skillset to the benefit of all. This requires a process and time, but is well worth it in the end. As long as a school such as this follows the program and is not set up to either: 1- establish the perception of an "elite" corps of ninja ground team members; or 2- solely out of frustration with the current system's failure to address training needs (real or perceived), I see no problem and offer kudos to the organizers. YMMV
I think the proper wording should be: taught in line with the CAP emergency services curriculm. NESA nor HMRS nor Blue Beret or whatever school should be "the school ".
There is nothin wrong with teaching additional curriculm, especially if a local need exists; then by all means add to meet the local/ mission need; and no not everyone else needs to know/learn the local/additional stuff.
I disagree that everyone needs to know someone else's local skill sets. Yes it should be available to share as needed. For example; those that live in the flat desert dont need to know the rope/mountain rescue of the northeast; likewise those in the Northeast dont need to know the desert survival that me be integral to operations in Arizona.
Sarmed- I agree with you and appreciate the correction on the wording. I was in fact referring to the curriculum, not the particular school itself. Yes, there will be some local or regional variations. There will be some special skills needed by some but worthless to others. My point, however, was that hopefully this school will be sticking to a base curriculum and not going completely off reservation. While there must be an allowance for different needs in different areas, this type of training should be in addition to, not in replacement of, a baseline of knowledge taught across the organization. Since I have not seen the proposed curriculum for this ranger school, I can't speak to it, but that is not my point nor my place.
It would seem that schools such as this have come and gone in the history of CAP. There must be a reason for it. If said reason is a (real or perceived) lack of quality training or curriculum at the national level, then there is a need that should be addressed holistically. If said reason is that the membership finds that travel to a particular school to learn the national curriculum is inconvenient, too expensive, etc, then establishing a regional school might be a good answer. If said reason is that there are many specialty skills required in a certain locality, perhaps the school could be established as an adjunct or advanced program. But... if said reason is that somebody feels that what is available isn't elite, hardkewl, high speed, or blingy enough, then , IMHO, there may be a problem.
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 12, 2010, 03:09:31 AMNESA nor HMRS nor Blue Beret or whatever school should be "the school ".
I thought NESA was "the school", and that our curriculum was written by and updated by them?
Quote from: N Harmon on October 12, 2010, 02:35:21 PM
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 12, 2010, 03:09:31 AMNESA nor HMRS nor Blue Beret or whatever school should be "the school ".
I thought NESA was "the school", and that our curriculum was written by and updated by them?
It is, and those who try to assert otherwise are usually squeezing sour grapes for whatever reason. As an organization we would be much better off if ES qualifications required completion of NESA in the same way that other similar organizations, including the military, require all operators to complete standardized, baseline training.
It is the only school or similar activity with the sole purpose of training and qualifying CAP members to the national standards. Anything "off-book" is a national pilot program coming soon to a pamphlet near you. It has its own charter and and is staffed by members of the national ES curriculum committee.
If the "NESA Way" is different from "your way", you're doing it wrong.
Quote from: indygreg on October 10, 2010, 01:29:08 AM
Quote from: Senior on October 09, 2010, 10:48:38 PM
Ranger skills.... 8)
Small unit movement
Blowing stuff up
Calling in airstrikes to blow stuff up
Mountaineering to get to the place to blow stuff up
Small boat operations
Saying HOORAH!!!!!! a lot
PA Rangers skills..... ::)
Wear orange and white stuff, act cool
Run around the woods
Kudos to North Carolina, my birthplace. :clap:
I know some Rangers that would die before saying HOORAH!!! They wouldn't want to be confused with Marines.
That's right, the proper Army term is Hooah!!! There is no "R". ;D ;D
Marines=Oorah
Army= Hooah
Navy= Hooyah Has anybody seen my coffee cup? (As corrected by SarDragon)
Air Force (CAP, by extension): Donuts, anyone?
Coast Guard: This is a lighthouse, sir. Your call.
Quote from: DakRadz on October 12, 2010, 09:53:19 PM
Navy= Hooyah Has anybody seen my coffee cup?
Air Force (CAP, by extension): Donuts, anyone?
Coast Guard: This is a lighthouse, sir. Your call.
Fixed that for you. >:D
To answer the original questions:
Quote#1. Do we really need another "ranger" program?
#2. Are we now going to have to deal with every wing forming its own "ranger's"
#3. Can anyone please tell me what "ranger skills" are??
#1&2: No not likely; but hopefully its more of an extension of the PA program. A few years ago PA developed an "exportable" Ranger program: basically the curriculm, leson plans, school methodology in one neat littel package. It was to be made available to intersted Wing/Region DO's so they could build and run a local level program that was "equivilent" to the basic program done at HMRS (ie were FLWG program developed). This program was further "pushed" by former MG Pineda, as he wanted a Nationwide Ranger program; there would be a basic school in each region that would then funnel applicants to HMRS for advanced/specialized training. So #2 yes its possible, not likely and technically they wouldnt be any differant in skill sets to the "original" (which segways into #3)
#3 Off the cuff not specifically: Somewhere I have a document that I broke out the Ranger specific skills from the Nat Curriculm GTM skills by Ranger Grade (if I can find it I'll post the info). The basic breakdown I have always given people is this: The ranger programs emphasis stems from its early survival type school origins. Be able to be self sustaining in a wilderness environment for up to 72 hours. Be able to conduct SAR operations in the terrain most commonly encountered in Pennsylvania, including search for, find, communicate, treat and evacuate casulties from aircraft crashes or other missing persons.
This usually includes a greater emphasis on:
Outdoor (ie camping) skills
General wilderness survival skills (ie the I didnt bring it in on my back, how do I find it/fix it/make it stuff)
Land navigation
patient packaging and first aid
Mountain Operations...read in basic ropes and knots skills, rappeling, high angle/steep terrain rescue
GTM skills and quification as GTM3 thru GBD are required for qualification at the differant ranger ratings (so it is not a seperate qualification independant of the GTM program as some believe)
mk
I suppose it would depend on what the mission of each of "the schools" was.
NESA, in my eyes, is the place you go to get Emergency Services Qualifications. It is "the" place to go for ES quals.
HMRS, in my eyes, is a wilderness leadership course.
If HMRS is selling themselves as "a place to go for ES quals" they should be marketing differently, because that isn't what they do.
QuoteIf HMRS is selling themselves as "a place to go for ES quals" they should be marketing differently, because that isn't what they do.
No, that is what they do, or more specifically ONE, of the things they do. For NESA, that is the only thing they do (Well except for that Wilderness AFA school) They do provide GTM training and it follows the National Curriculm and uses the GTM task guide as it the base training/testing document. They just happen to do other things as well.
Personally I think that they (HMRS) need to clearly slpit thier programs; If they are going to be the training point for PAWG for GTM type training, offer GTM3-GBD specific training. Then offer a seperate Ranger qualification program; including the summer school, make GTM "whatever" a requirement of application then they area able to spend the time just concentrating on the outdoor, navigation and the other Ranger specific skills. Trying to rope (no pun intended) all of the basic GTM level skills and then "Ranger" into the same week for someone who is a zero level is challenging for an instructor to produce a capable graduating student by the end of theweek.
mk
Ranger is just a hook to get the young cadets in to it. it does not in any way shape or form make them a ranger.
Quote from: DakRadz on October 12, 2010, 09:53:19 PM
Coast Guard: This is a lighthouse, sir. Your call.
I saw that video. Needless to say, many lol's were had. ;D
Quote from: NCRblues on October 08, 2010, 01:28:53 PM
I am a GBD, GTL, UDF, MRO, FLM, FLS.... i must have missed the part about needing "ranger skills" to perform those duty's, and i would still like to know...what are the "ranger skills"?
Or can we admit that the title "ranger" is just used to get kids and unmotivated SM's into ES?
http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/standardsandeval.htm
see the above link for PA's Ranger skills. Their "SQTR's".
Quote from: Thrash on November 02, 2010, 10:44:41 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on October 08, 2010, 01:28:53 PM
I am a GBD, GTL, UDF, MRO, FLM, FLS.... i must have missed the part about needing "ranger skills" to perform those duty's, and i would still like to know...what are the "ranger skills"?
Or can we admit that the title "ranger" is just used to get kids and unmotivated SM's into ES?
http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/standardsandeval.htm
see the above link for PA's Ranger skills. Their "SQTR's".
Hmmm... Things don't seem to get interesting until Ranger 1st Class (and even then it would be a walk in the park for many). Hawk Mountain has a winter school going for it. I'd likely eat my boots for a winter (or fall) session at NESA, due to the fact that I can't go this summer.
My only issue with the Ranger program has been ranger rolling me hat. I grew up around Rangers wehn my dad was in the Army, so it is natural for me to ranger roll. And I get in trouble a whole lot for doing it. Cause somone will be like, "You didnt go to the Ranger NESA." I even had a Cadet Major that told me you can not ranger roll a BDU cap (which is false if you know your fact).
I am just waiting for a Airborne school so CAP can regulate Blouse boots with the service dress.
"Ranger NESA"? I think the SAR gods are displeased with you now.
Also, unless you can cite where in CAP ranger rolls are explicitly authorized they're not, no matter what you know.
Parade boots are already authorized with blues IIRC.
wow, parade boots are authorized? Are red berets also (red berets in the Army symbolize Air Borne)?
Quote from: C/Martin on November 10, 2010, 07:16:06 PMI even had a Cadet Major that told me you can not ranger roll a BDU cap (which is false if you know your fact).
Apparently, you do not know your facts.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
3. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.
Quote from: C/Martin on November 10, 2010, 07:31:30 PM
wow, parade boots are authorized? Are red berets also (red berets in the Army symbolize Air Borne)?
No. 39-1 is your friend. I would have cited but I'm on my phone.
You should know this already Chief.
Quote from: C/Martin on November 10, 2010, 07:31:30 PM
wow, parade boots are authorized? Are red berets also (red berets in the Army symbolize Air Borne)?
If you wore a red beret in an AF uniform, you may be mistaken for a PJ.
Quote from: HGjunkie on November 10, 2010, 09:27:43 PM
Quote from: C/Martin on November 10, 2010, 07:31:30 PM
wow, parade boots are authorized? Are red berets also (red berets in the Army symbolize Air Borne)?
If you wore a red beret in an AF uniform, you may be mistaken for a PJ.
If you wore a red beret in
an AF a CAP uniform, you may be mistaken for a
PJ tool. :P
+1
Red berets in the AF are CCT. PJs wear maroon. And neither is authorized in CAP.
Quote from: C/Martin on November 10, 2010, 07:31:30 PM
wow, parade boots are authorized? Are red berets also (red berets in the Army symbolize Air Borne)?
In the belief that no nit is too small to pick, I believe that would be a maroon beret.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 10, 2010, 07:31:38 PM
Quote from: C/Martin on November 10, 2010, 07:16:06 PMI even had a Cadet Major that told me you can not ranger roll a BDU cap (which is false if you know your fact).
Apparently, you do not know your facts.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
3. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.
"Cadet, what happened to your cap?"
"Sir, I'm a Ranger!"
"Outstanding! Now fix your cap."
"Cadet, what happened to your cap?"
"Sir, I'm a Ranger!"
"Outstanding! Now fix your cap."
Im totally using this...
QuoteMy only issue with the Ranger program has been ranger rolling me hat.
\
Where does this come from!!?? I understand the annoyances of tabs, and pistol belts and whistle chains and orange t-shirts in people comeing back from HMRS. BUT NO ONE WEARS BDU/PATROL CAPS THERE! So there is no "hey this is how your wear your hat after you leave".... they give students a doofy orange hat with the logo on it to wear..... the BDU hat thing just somehow materializes out of thin air apparently.....
mk
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 12, 2010, 03:09:31 AM
I think the proper wording should be: taught in line with the CAP emergency services curriculm. NESA nor HMRS nor Blue Beret or whatever school should be "the school ".
There is nothin wrong with teaching additional curriculm, especially if a local need exists; then by all means add to meet the local/ mission need; and no not everyone else needs to know/learn the local/additional stuff.
I disagree that everyone needs to know someone else's local skill sets. Yes it should be available to share as needed. For example; those that live in the flat desert dont need to know the rope/mountain rescue of the northeast; likewise those in the Northeast dont need to know the desert survival that me be integral to operations in Arizona.
AMEN!
Quote from: Eclipse on October 12, 2010, 02:59:31 PM
Quote from: N Harmon on October 12, 2010, 02:35:21 PM
Quote from: sarmed1 on October 12, 2010, 03:09:31 AMNESA nor HMRS nor Blue Beret or whatever school should be "the school ".
I thought NESA was "the school", and that our curriculum was written by and updated by them?
It is, and those who try to assert otherwise are usually squeezing sour grapes for whatever reason. As an organization we would be much better off if ES qualifications required completion of NESA in the same way that other similar organizations, including the military, require all operators to complete standardized, baseline training.
It is the only school or similar activity with the sole purpose of training and qualifying CAP members to the national standards. Anything "off-book" is a national pilot program coming soon to a pamphlet near you. It has its own charter and and is staffed by members of the national ES curriculum committee.
If the "NESA Way" is different from "your way", you're doing it wrong.
WRONG!
Well, if you say so...
Let me guess, your wing has its own "way" that conflicts with what NESA teaches and you guys have had conflicts with people from another wing. Rather than just get with the program, you prefer to make it up yourselves and ice skate uphill.
Close?
Last I heard, NESA was allowing use of the task guide when students were being tested for their quals. If that is still the case, then NESA most certainly is in the wrong. As long as that is the case, I won't be attending and won't really be encouraging others to do so as their testing system is substandard as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 12, 2010, 10:22:34 PM
Last I heard, NESA was allowing use of the task guide when students were being tested for their quals. If that is still the case, then NESA most certainly is in the wrong. As long as that is the case, I won't be attending and won't really be encouraging others to do so as their testing system is substandard as far as I'm concerned.
So you're going to discourage others participation based on hearsay? When I was there this summer, that was definitely not the case, at least not in the school I was in. I will check with another person from my squadron who was there in a different school but I think your source is misinformed at best.
What?
Why would you not be allowed to use the task guide? What else are you going to use?
It's the authoritative document for the entire ES program.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2010, 10:54:18 PM
Why would you not be allowed to use the task guide? What else are you going to use?
I think he means to look up answers while being tested - which is against policy IIRC. Studying before and after is kosher though and if that's what he's referring to then there is nothing wrong with it.
Who's policy? Since when is tasking a closed-book situation?
The task guide is required equipment for use as a referral during missions.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 12, 2010, 10:55:30 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2010, 10:54:18 PM
Why would you not be allowed to use the task guide? What else are you going to use?
I think he means to look up answers while being tested - which is against policy IIRC. Studying before and after is kosher though and if that's what he's referring to then there is nothing wrong with it.
What tests? The tasks are demonstrate or discuss [topic at hand].
Quote from: davidsinn on November 12, 2010, 11:07:29 PM
What tests? The tasks are demonstrate or discuss [topic at hand].
My point exactly - having the book in your hand will not help you if you've never seen a compass until that minute or don't know what your pace count is, etc.
There are a lot of tasks that knowledge questions only.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 12, 2010, 11:39:42 PM
There are a lot of tasks that knowledge questions only.
Yes there are, but where does it say ES is a closed book situation?
As Sinn mentions they are generally "identify" or "discuss", not "gotcha".
Where does it say that they are open book?
Quote from: RiverAux on November 12, 2010, 11:57:53 PM
Where does it say that they are open book?
Nice try, however if one wants to walk that way, any testing situation in CAP that is mandated closed book is indicated as such
in either the regs or accompanying text, and if ES has anything, it has a lot of regs and text.
The standard is "demonstrate to the satisfaction of the SET", nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 12, 2010, 11:57:53 PM
Where does it say that they are open book?
Look at most of the task evaluations. With a few exceptions, they say the trainee may use any equipment they have
including this guide in performing the task. (Not a direct quote - too lazy to look it up for quoting)
Sorry, if you don't know the info, you don't pass my training class unless somewhere specifically it says open book. If others are allowing the task guides to be used for simple knowledge questions then maybe I do need to stop defending CAP's ES program as much as I have.
How about giving us an example of a "simple knowledge question" that using the GT Guide book gives you heartburn about?
Last time I looked there were about 20 GT tasks that could be handled by a written quiz. Just about all of the GT3 tasks are included. But, haow about O-0101? Run across one of those snakes and you're not going to have time to dig the guide out of your backpack to figure out if it is dangerous or not.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 13, 2010, 02:02:33 PM
Last time I looked there were about 20 GT tasks that could be handled by a written quiz. Just about all of the GT3 tasks are included. But, haow about O-0101? Run across one of those snakes and you're not going to have time to dig the guide out of your backpack to figure out if it is dangerous or not.
Guess how many of those snakes are in my AO? Or spiders for that matter. So who cares if they are dangerous? Don't mess with them.
The fact remains that the people who run NESA are the people who wrote the task guide. So it seems to me a little strange that they would allow some tasks to be completed open-book if they didn't intend those tasks to be completed that way.
The only task that is "closed book" is O-0703, Employ Ground to Air signals, where it specifically says the person being evaluated must draw the five distress signals "from memory".
Incidentally, the last time this issue came up I submitted a question to the KB and was told that these were supposed to be closed book. I don't know if it ever made it in the KB itself (I've asked about 5 questions and none were ever actually placed in the KB for some reason). So, I've got no proof of that answer, but ask them yourself if you'd like.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 13, 2010, 02:02:33 PM
Last time I looked there were about 20 GT tasks that could be handled by a written quiz. Just about all of the GT3 tasks are included. But, haow about O-0101? Run across one of those snakes and you're not going to have time to dig the guide out of your backpack to figure out if it is dangerous or not.
Sure, there are a lot of ways things can be done - dog tasking - "stay away from the dogs". Done.
See any snake, move away. Done.
That doesn't mean because yo have decided to do things through a PME that the rest of the universe is required to.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 13, 2010, 02:38:59 PM
Incidentally, the last time this issue came up I submitted a question to the KB and was told that these were supposed to be closed book. I don't know if it ever made it in the KB itself (I've asked about 5 questions and none were ever actually placed in the KB for some reason). So, I've got no proof of that answer, but ask them yourself if you'd like.
No need.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 13, 2010, 02:38:59 PM
Incidentally, the last time this issue came up I submitted a question to the KB and was told that these were supposed to be closed book. I don't know if it ever made it in the KB itself (I've asked about 5 questions and none were ever actually placed in the KB for some reason). So, I've got no proof of that answer, but ask them yourself if you'd like.
So, the KB says you can't use the task guide - but that response is not available to anyone but you. At the same time, the vast majority of the tasks say you can use the task guide
in the evaluation instructions. Guess which one most members will use?
Hint - test says you can use book means it's open book, despite what someone at NHQ meant or what is supposed to be.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 13, 2010, 02:02:33 PM
Last time I looked there were about 20 GT tasks that could be handled by a written quiz.
You just reminded me. I'm working on that.
Quote from: arajca on November 13, 2010, 05:50:31 PM
Hint - test says you can use book means it's open book, despite what someone at NHQ meant or what is supposed to be.
And where the test says that, I agree with you. But, it does not in many cases in the task guide (GT specifically - I haven't look at the others recently).
Quote from: RiverAux on November 12, 2010, 10:22:34 PM
Last I heard, NESA was allowing use of the task guide when students were being tested for their quals. If that is still the case, then NESA most certainly is in the wrong. As long as that is the case, I won't be attending and won't really be encouraging others to do so as their testing system is substandard as far as I'm concerned.
At least in GSAR, this is not true. We do
not allow the use of the task guide when evaluating either knowledge based or practical tasks.
If you have to look in a book to check, you don't know it. Simple as that.
Quote from: BTCS1* on November 16, 2010, 01:48:22 AM
If you have to look in a book to check, you don't know it. Simple as that.
Really? How do you identify the natural hazards? Draw them from memory?
Have you ever seen a pilot use a checklist?
Quote from: Eclipse on November 16, 2010, 01:50:32 AM
Really? How do you identify the natural hazards? Draw them from memory?
Well, you could perform the task test as required in the task guide -- obtain photos of 1 haz plant, 5 haz animals, and a drawing/picture of a haz terrain feature and have the student correctly identify all 7 and have them identify 2 ways of avoiding the hazards in 6/7 photos.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 16, 2010, 01:58:35 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 16, 2010, 01:50:32 AM
Really? How do you identify the natural hazards? Draw them from memory?
Well, you could perform the task test as required in the task guide -- obtain photos of 1 haz plant, 5 haz animals, and a drawing/picture of a haz terrain feature and have the student correctly identify all 7 and have them identify 2 ways of avoiding the hazards in 6/7 photos.
If you have the task guide in your hand, you are already
holding pictures of the hazardous plants and animals.
There's a difference between a reference and finding the answer because you don't know it.
Quote from: a2capt on November 16, 2010, 02:06:09 AM
There's a difference between a reference and finding the answer because you don't know it.
Agreed, and if you can't tell the difference, you should not be an SET.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 16, 2010, 02:04:15 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 16, 2010, 01:58:35 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 16, 2010, 01:50:32 AM
Really? How do you identify the natural hazards? Draw them from memory?
Well, you could perform the task test as required in the task guide -- obtain photos of 1 haz plant, 5 haz animals, and a drawing/picture of a haz terrain feature and have the student correctly identify all 7 and have them identify 2 ways of avoiding the hazards in 6/7 photos.
If you have the task guide in your hand, you are already holding pictures of the hazardous plants and animals.
"Cadet Smith -- look at this picture labeled "copperhead snake" and tell me what hazardous animal is pictured"
"Sir, that is a copperhead snake"
"Congratulation Cadet Smith, you know your natural hazards, where is your SQTR so I can sign it?"
I love you, man, value your service, and respect your contributions here.
Quote from: PA Guy on October 08, 2010, 11:19:15 AM
Training is seldom a bad thing. The problem here is what seems to follow the "Ranger" training, the almost inevitable rush toward bling and developing the elitist attitudes. Just call it SAR or GT training and move on.
Shouldn't you want an elitist attitude? We as CAP members search for missing people. If you were a missing person, would you care if your searchers called something "ranger training" or "ground team training"? I don't think you would. If calling it ranger gets more people involved then
HOORAH!!!!!!
Quote from: ranger_freak on June 18, 2012, 06:24:59 PM
Quote from: PA Guy on October 08, 2010, 11:19:15 AM
Training is seldom a bad thing. The problem here is what seems to follow the "Ranger" training, the almost inevitable rush toward bling and developing the elitist attitudes. Just call it SAR or GT training and move on.
Shouldn't you want an elitist attitude? We as CAP members search for missing people. If you were a missing person, would you care if your searchers called something "ranger training" or "ground team training"? I don't think you would. If calling it ranger gets more people involved then HOORAH!!!!!!
First...holy necro batman....
Second... ::) ranger that ::)
What do you mean? Are you being racist?
Quote from: ranger_freak on June 18, 2012, 06:44:28 PM
What do you mean? Are you being racist?
No. He said "necro" short for "thread necromancy" as in "bringing back to life long dead threads." See: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thread_necromancy (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thread_necromancy)
(https://whyweprotest.net/asset-proxy/21d49fe3199f0989a930eb0c2c38d651b8e5f061/687474703a2f2f7365656d736c656769742e636f6d2f5f696d616765732f35373733653633396135396134613063353930313836313030373835633262392f323239362532302d253230666f72756d2532306c6174652532306e6563726f6d616e6379253230706f73742532307468726561642e6a7067/http://seemslegit.com/_images/5773e639a59a4a0c590186100785c2b9/2296%20-%20forum%20late%20necromancy%20post%20thread.jpg?_cfgetx=img.rx:50;img.ry:50;)
Quote from: ranger_freak on June 18, 2012, 06:44:28 PM
What do you mean? Are you being racist?
The dictionary is your friend, use it.
Quote from: ranger_freak on June 18, 2012, 06:24:59 PMShouldn't you want an elitist attitude? We as CAP members search for missing people. If you were a missing person, would you care if your searchers called something "ranger training" or "ground team training"? I don't think you would. If calling it ranger gets more people involved then
Except the attitude fostered by this optional high adventure activity creeps into the required components of the CP, which is unacceptable.
Quote from: Pylon on June 18, 2012, 07:07:29 PM
Quote from: ranger_freak on June 18, 2012, 06:44:28 PM
What do you mean? Are you being racist?
No. He said "necro" short for "thread necromancy" as in "bringing back to life long dead threads." See: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thread_necromancy (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thread_necromancy)
(https://whyweprotest.net/asset-proxy/21d49fe3199f0989a930eb0c2c38d651b8e5f061/687474703a2f2f7365656d736c656769742e636f6d2f5f696d616765732f35373733653633396135396134613063353930313836313030373835633262392f323239362532302d253230666f72756d2532306c6174652532306e6563726f6d616e6379253230706f73742532307468726561642e6a7067/http://seemslegit.com/_images/5773e639a59a4a0c590186100785c2b9/2296%20-%20forum%20late%20necromancy%20post%20thread.jpg?_cfgetx=img.rx:50;img.ry:50;)
I love that and so approrpriate. I forgot about this thread, may I suggest a lock on it?
And several pounds of tow chain and a lead weight.