Should CAP Officer Basic Course be required for CAP officer promotions?

[PHall]

ES is almost an extracurricular, not a primary function. .....  There's a time for ES, and it's not within the first six months, or even year. Get people knowledgeable about CAP first, then start them on the additionals.

Wake up and read the mission statements.  ES is one of the three major mission areas for CAP.  ES is also why a lot of people join CAP.  NOW you want to tell them that they need to do paperwork and take classes for a year before they can even start training on ES anything ES related?

Yes.

They have to complete Level 1 before they can do anything. How many have left because of that?

I tell new members "who are here only for ES" that it will be pretty much a solid year before they are qualified to participate in ES missions.

Don't believe me, add up the time it takes for your membership to be processed, to get a Level 1, and to start your ES training.
Join date to MP Standard is usually a year if not more.

[Major Carrales]

I've just read the following posts and think many of you miss the point.  If you put all the "high profile training" at the beginning what the heck are you gonna put at the end?

Here's reality.  A person comes in as a SMWOG...they work on the extreme basics of CAP, LEVEL I with its foundations, Cadet Protection and now a slew of safety items raning from Groudn Handling to ORM.  Also, they train "on the job" for what they are gonna do for their squadrons.  Those heavy into ES will also have a heck of a lot to do via GES (run properly) and all sorts of NIMS Stuff.  If you give them a proper mentor to guide them...they finish it all and become a 2d Lt (Which in CAP is the BEGINING of professional development...not the END).   

While this is happening...they, if they are productive, will take a staff position, learn about CAP procedures...not in a CLASS, but from the PRACTICES.  They, if properly guided by more experienced CAP officers...grow to a TECH rating in their field and, by the end of their first year, are in ES or CP.

As they prepare to become 1st Lts in CAP, they likely have been to several SARexs, Encampments or the like and have probably never stood in a formation or been asked to Drill.   They then consider taking the CAP Officer Basic Course...which until now (as an ECI 13) is a chore based on obsolete materials.  Then they make Captain.

Normal CAP Officers will remain in their Squadrons their whole career, implementing the three missions.  They don't seek to rise to WING and may take "duel" Group positions to help out locally.  Most I know are respectful of military customs and courtesy, but it is hardly called for.

I think we get, if properly guided, quite a lot of training for people who are maintaining jobs, careers and families while serving our Community, State and Nation in the CAP.

I can testify to the fact that every spare hour not at a meeting must be saved for ES, CP and AE...NOT PD for its own sake.  I cannot, nor would not, take a single day off of work to attend a CAP training born more of insecure desires to be what we are not than of meaningful origin...I would, and have, taken leave from work for HURRICANE DEPLOYMENTS, driving cadets to Leadership Schools/ENCAMPMENT and a host of other things.  As a teacher, summers are key times for increased activity, but I will not support making squadron level officers take arbitrary trainings that will rob their time for "mission related" deployment. 

[NC Hokie]

Eighteen months into one's CAP career is NOT the time to finally cover foundational topics such as Intro to Followership, CAP Core Values, CAP Ethics, CAP Uniform Wear, Specialty Training Tracks, Organization of CAP, etc.

Duh, you mean your squadron commander is not having those topics covered in the Summary Conversation or follow-on PD classes?

He did, actually, which makes me wonder why NHQ wants me to study the same material eighteen months later in the Officer BASIC Course.

[NC Hokie]

Is our biggest problem poorly prepared 2d Lts? Or is it more senior officers who lack the basic foundation?

I'm curious...when should the basic foundation for senior officers be laid?  Your proposal suggests that it should be done when they're junior officers, but centuries of military and management training suggest otherwise.  That's why it's called a BASIC foundation.

[Short Field]

Don't believe me, add up the time it takes for your membership to be processed, to get a Level 1, and to start your ES training.  Join date to MP Standard is usually a year if not more.

We start them on ES training as soon as they finish Level 1.  Step One - CAPT 116 so they can earn GES.  Then they progress through the rest of it...  ES is why they joined - so we try and make sure they have lots of ES fun.  That makes them a lot more willing to do the professional development and to take a role in running the squadron. 

We are always stressing to the membership that this is OUR squadron and WE have to do all the jobs to make it run properly - there is no one else to do it.  When you cut to the bottom line, that is what PD is all about anyway:  training squadron members so they can effectively run the organization.

[vento]

I've just read the following posts and think many of you miss the point.  If you put all the "high profile training" at the beginning what the heck are you gonna put at the end?

Here's reality.  A person comes in as a SMWOG...they work on the extreme basics of CAP, LEVEL I with its foundations, Cadet Protection and now a slew of safety items raning from Groudn Handling to ORM.  Also, they train "on the job" for what they are gonna do for their squadrons.  Those heavy into ES will also have a heck of a lot to do via GES (run properly) and all sorts of NIMS Stuff.  If you give them a proper mentor to guide them...they finish it all and become a 2d Lt (Which in CAP is the BEGINING of professional development...not the END).   

While this is happening...they, if they are productive, will take a staff position, learn about CAP procedures...not in a CLASS, but from the PRACTICES.  They, if properly guided by more experienced CAP officers...grow to a TECH rating in their field and, by the end of their first year, are in ES or CP.

As they prepare to become 1st Lts in CAP, they likely have been to several SARexs, Encampments or the like and have probably never stood in a formation or been asked to Drill.   They then consider taking the CAP Officer Basic Course...which until now (as an ECI 13) is a chore based on obsolete materials.  Then they make Captain.

Normal CAP Officers will remain in their Squadrons their whole career, implementing the three missions.  They don't seek to rise to WING and may take "duel" Group positions to help out locally.  Most I know are respectful of military customs and courtesy, but it is hardly called for.

I think we get, if properly guided, quite a lot of training for people who are maintaining jobs, careers and families while serving our Community, State and Nation in the CAP.

I can testify to the fact that every spare hour not at a meeting must be saved for ES, CP and AE...NOT PD for its own sake.  I cannot, nor would not, take a single day off of work to attend a CAP training born more of insecure desires to be what we are not than of meaningful origin...I would, and have, taken leave from work for HURRICANE DEPLOYMENTS, driving cadets to Leadership Schools/ENCAMPMENT and a host of other things.  As a teacher, summers are key times for increased activity, but I will not support making squadron level officers take arbitrary trainings that will rob their time for "mission related" deployment.

+1

[Hawk200]

A little research will give you the answer.   

I know the answer, but I think you're missing the point.

[jimmydeanno]

...resource some military instructors on the development of it

Not to put a fine point on it, but ECI/AFIADL-13 was written by the "military." 

[Hawk200]

...resource some military instructors on the development of it

Not to put a fine point on it, but ECI/AFIADL-13 was written by the "military."

Yes, it was. And when was it done? About twenty five years ago?

We didn't advance with the times. Accomplishments from twenty five years ago are just that. We need to move forward.

[jimmydeanno]

Yes, it was. And when was it done? About twenty five years ago?

We didn't advance with the times. Accomplishments from twenty five years ago are just that. We need to move forward.

My point wasn't so much that the AFIADL is obsolete, but that the military isn't necessarily the best educational source we could use.  Just because many of our members are familiar with military style educational techniques, it doesn't mean that we should immediately run to them to develop our educational materials.

We can "oooh" and "awww" at military leaders all day and try to pull off their experience, but it doesn't necessarily make them the best option for us.

You don't see journalists around the world using the Tongue and Quill as their "bible" for how to write do you?  No, because while it works in the military, it certainly is not the best way to write.

[Short Field]

...resource some military instructors on the development of it

Not to put a fine point on it, but ECI/AFIADL-13 was written by the "military."

So were the latest versions of CLC and SLS.  Read the notes and you will see that it was a project by a group of ACSC students.

[Hawk200]

Yes, it was. And when was it done? About twenty five years ago?

We didn't advance with the times. Accomplishments from twenty five years ago are just that. We need to move forward.

My point wasn't so much that the AFIADL is obsolete, but that the military isn't necessarily the best educational source we could use.  Just because many of our members are familiar with military style educational techniques, it doesn't mean that we should immediately run to them to develop our educational materials.

We can "oooh" and "awww" at military leaders all day and try to pull off their experience, but it doesn't necessarily make them the best option for us.

You don't see journalists around the world using the Tongue and Quill as their "bible" for how to write do you?  No, because while it works in the military, it certainly is not the best way to write.

We may not be military, but we present ourselves in a like manner. A paramilitary chain of command, an association with a branch of military service, and a cadet program that educates youth on both aerospace power and aviation history. Yes, it does cover things that aren't military in nature, but that's not why they gravitate to it.

Leadership has been moved forward a great deal by military lessons learned. You don't see leadership as much of a focus most other places.

Leadership is very important in CAP. We need people to influence others to want to accomplish the missions. We all know that some "volunteers" will leave if asked to do something they don't want to.

The military has a great deal of experience in this, going back a long time. Hence, my suggestion that military instructors be utilized to assist in the development. I don't think there's much in the way of corporations working on much that's even similar.

I've said before that I don't think that CAP officers should have the same requirements as military officers. But, some of the leadership training that military personnel have would be extremely beneficial.

[jimmydeanno]

So were the latest versions of CLC and SLS.  Read the notes and you will see that it was a project by a group of ACSC students.

The SLS was written by an NHQ staffer, not ACSC students.

[SarDragon]

Regarding T&Q, it's just a standard set of rules to ensure consistency. It's no better or worse than AP, Strunk & White, Turabian, et al.

[Short Field]

The SLS was written by an NHQ staffer, not ACSC students.

I knew one was written as a class project at ACSC - I just thought both were since they had the same look and feel.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The military has a great deal of experience in this, going back a long time. Hence, my suggestion that military instructors be utilized to assist in the development.

Also maybe utilising available (if any) Guard/Reserve former MTI's to instruct new people on customs, courtesies and drill.

Of course, the mode of instruction would need to be modified somewhat from what one gets at lovely Lackland.

[Lt Oliv]

It's important to note that no one is asking you to complete OBC "18 months later." There are quite a few folks who are getting a jumpstart on Level 2 while still 2d Lieutenants. There is no reason why one cannot knock through OBC and attend SLS in their first 18 months. I've seen new pilots do just that while completing the various requirements to fly for CAP.

The fact is, this is professional development. Some CAP Officers will naturally develop faster than others. Some will complete Level II while still a 2d Lieutenant, while another will rush to complete Level II because they want to make Captain. Then again, some people really care about promotion, while others are here for a specific mission (say, a pilot who doesn't really care so much about rank).

Here's an idea. Bring in Warrant ranks. Let a SMWOG become a Warrant Officer. Then we change the whole dynamic. Instead of people who don't have any rank at all, we are respecting the experience and professionalism that a new senior member brings. If they don't care about advancement, there is nothing wrong with remaining at a WO grade for the duration of your CAP Career. If you want to advance, then hit the requirements head-on and advance through the "commissioned" grades.

The key difference between us and the RM (besides pay), is that a newly minted 2nd Lieutenant is likely fresh out of college (for the sake of this, we are not discussing prior service enlisted who are commissioned). You can put on your butter bars after four years of ROTC, or around 13 weeks of OCS. The military, however, also respects specialized fields such as nurses, lawyers and chaplains. That;s why they skip OCS.

In CAP, very few people come in with absolutely no usable skills. Utilizing a pilot, a lawyer or a chaplain is easy to explain away. But even a person with secretarial skills, a person with experience in youth programming, or a person who is just plain organized can easily be integrated into the staff structure of a unit. Level I prepares a person to walk into the room for the first time and get to work. But OBC is not Level I. OBC is quite in-depth compared to level I, which, I believe, is perfect when you consider that the typical OBC student is just then taking on more responsibilities and requires a more in-depth knowledge of CAP, Ethics and Customs and Courtesies.

We are not 22 year olds coming up for the first time. Many CAP Officers are former military. Many CAP Officers are accomplished in their civilian field. We should focus on harnessing all of that expertise and putting it to use rather than just trying to mimic the RM because we think we deserve to be saluted more.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^What you say has merit, and in many ways I'm with you, but I think the general consensus throughout CAP (or at least CAPTalk) is that any change to the grade structure to bring back WO's and promotable NCO's is a non-starter.

Whatever changes are going to be made training-wise are, like it or not, probably going to have to be made within the current structure.

[tdepp]

We are not 22 year olds coming up for the first time. Many CAP Officers are former military. Many CAP Officers are accomplished in their civilian field. We should focus on harnessing all of that expertise and putting it to use rather than just trying to mimic the RM because we think we deserve to be saluted more.

LO:
I'm with Cy on the chances of changes to the grade structure.  But I agree with most of what you had to say, particularly what I've quoted.  A good squadron, group, or wing leader will make full use of folks' skills as you note above.  In my wing and squadron, that has definitely been the case.  That's a function, I think, of leadership, training, insight, and good people skills on the part of the CC.  I tell prospective and new SMs that whatever it is they are good at, there is probably a way for them to use that to better our squadron or wing.  And they'll learn a thing or two as well.

I go back and forth about rank.  As a military-styled organization with direct ties to the USAF (and our long history), it makes a lot of sense.  It also gives people pride and something to work for.  But at the same token, when it comes to actually getting a job done or doing a mission, skills are far more important as well as being able to work as a team, IMHO.  And yes, I know some of the rest of you don't agree with that, but that's fine too.

I don't see a need to change our rank structure.  Would more officer training be a good thing?  Yes.  But at least in my squadron that has been regularly tasked with quite a bit of aerial recon and photography, our priority is training for skills so we can man and successfully perform those missions.  Most of our SMs want mission-related skills training first, PD training second.  And I can see the argument the other way. 

Fortunately, CAP gives squadrons that flexibility.  My squadron does not lack for good leadership.  That is a function of the types of individuals we have as SMs--self starters, responsible, good at their civilian jobs, dedicated to CAP, willing to learn and teach, and good team players.  Did CAP teach them that?  Maybe a little, but they came into the organization already as self-actualized individuals. 

Chicken or the egg, I suppose.  I just feel blessed to be in such a great squadron and wing with so many talented people willing to help as needed.

[SarDragon]

some good stuff

I mostly agree. But what about the folks who join CAP who don't want to do the same thing for CAP that they do for their regular job? Most of my contributions to CAP have been through skills I've learned in CAP. I know several other members with the same feelings.