What are your thoughts? Will the cadet program survive the virus crisis?
Of course it will survive. Things will continue to look different for a while, and we are definitely taking a recruiting and retention hit, but over a longer time horizon CAP will recover.
Knock on wood, we are finally into Phase II and have only taken a loss of 3 Cadets out of 24. In our case, we will continue to grow and come back just as strong or stronger once this is all over with.
Other areas that are still in Phase 0 with no hope of getting to 1 anytime soon, they will most likely take a larger hit but will they be destroyed, no. Next year they will regroup, do some focused recruiting, and eventually get back to normal.
It will take a lot of teamwork with other Squadrons though. A unit with only 5 Cadets may be down to 0 by next year, and it's hard to recruit Cadets when you don't have any to begin with, so the more fortunate Squadrons may need to load a few Cadets here and there to help other Squadrons rebuild.
Yes, it will survive, without many of the current members unfortunately, but the fundamentals of the program remain sound. Many of the enabling mechanisms (e.g. the broken uniform situation) complicate the picture, and the transient operating conditions (e.g. lack of face to face activities or meetings for up to a couple of years) will prune the membership back somewhat but we've seen that before. Some of us on here saw the membership drop during various wars/crises over the past 40 - 50 years. The viral pandemic, the national level of rioting, and other external environmental factors are transitory and we should be able to weather them.
That given, the fundamentals of the program, with its focus on core values, its commitment to service and leadership training and the elements of the program, are sound. My answer would be different if we were eroding those (cf. the implosion and destruction of the BSA, who at a national level have long since abandoned their core values from Lord Baden-Powell).
In short:
The environment is always transitory, program structures adapt to survive in the changing environment, but the guiding Values should stay rock constant.
V/r
Spam
The CP has been, and will be, negatively effected significantly for the foreseeable.
Membership is down nationally over 7% year over year, which includes nearly 2700 cadets.
The inexplicable bump CAP experienced over the last two or so years has been essentially
erased, but worse, there are little to no new members who would normally feed the annual churn
(which has been said to be as high as 40+% for cadets). That means the waterfall drop
is about to get a lot steeper before it gets better.
The lack of normal leadership experience for a large segment of the cadet population
will undoubtedly cause execution issues for the foreseeable, and the accompanying
drain of adult leaders who might have made up for the cadet deficiencies will exacerbate that
situation.
The lack of extra-unit activities which are the anchor for many older cadets is going to compound
the problem further, and the economic issues many families face will mean a non-trivial percentage
of members, especially cadets, will have to make hard choices of where they spend their money.
Economics is also going to reduce the pilot population and general proficiency.
The rhetoric about their being a pilot shortage, and CAP's role in fixing that needs to
end as well. That's not going to be a "thing" for a long time, certainly not in the next 5 years,
probably 10, as the airlines slowly recover, and which then brings the world to the land of
autonomous commercial flights (as predicted anyway).
The general tone of..."disgruntled"...many areas of the country find themselves in isn't going to
help fix this either.
When a steady state returns, assuming it does, CAP is going to be, at best, much smaller, and likely struggling
with viability and relevance.
It's the type of "Apple Pie and Chevrolet" program that will continue to live in appropriations
for years, well past any legit viability, so asking whether it "survives" is probably the wrong question,
but it's not going to be the same.
Of course that can be said about just about everything.
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 04:38:13 PMA unit with only 5 Cadets may be down to 0 by next year, and it's hard to recruit Cadets when you don't have any to begin with, so the more fortunate Squadrons may need to load a few Cadets here and there to help other Squadrons rebuild.
And a unit with 3 seniors who finds itself down to 1 or 2 is lost.
I'd hazard the ragged edges of most wings, where unit have struggled to maintain
charters for years, will be where the most charter attrition occurs.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:24:16 PMQuote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 04:38:13 PMA unit with only 5 Cadets may be down to 0 by next year, and it's hard to recruit Cadets when you don't have any to begin with, so the more fortunate Squadrons may need to load a few Cadets here and there to help other Squadrons rebuild.
And a unit with 3 seniors who finds itself down to 1 or 2 is lost.
I'd hazard the ragged edges of most wings, where unit have struggled to maintain
charters for years, will be where the most charter attrition occurs.
We will no doubt lose a few flights that have been struggling for years, but that could be a good thing. Perhaps someone else will move in a few years down the road, recruit heavily and set up a stronger unit that otherwise wouldn't have existed. Maybe not, but trying to look at the positive side.
Improvise!
Adapt!
Overcome!
This situation is particularly severe, but there are always challenges and obstacles in life.
This is also an opportunity to examine how we do things and update our methods.
Our unit is up over 30% year over year, new cadets, new SM and new NCOs. Action matters.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:20:27 PMEconomics is also going to reduce the pilot population and general proficiency.
On the other hand, economics is also going to increase the population of pilots with a whole lot more time to be volunteering on their hands.
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on August 27, 2020, 07:33:05 PMQuote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:20:27 PMEconomics is also going to reduce the pilot population and general proficiency.
On the other hand, economics is also going to increase the population of pilots with a whole lot more time to be volunteering on their hands.
That is actually a really great point, Whiskey.
In the last recession I knew of guys who did spend their suddenly open free time ramping up their O flights. Corporate or airline pilots, other guys just temporarily without a situation, you name it. Win/win - met the cadet mission, kept them current, while using the federally appropriated funds to keep the hours on the aircraft. Considered against the blind torrent of federal money being spewed out without any guidance or conditions, I would say that was a reasonably good stimulus spending activity.
V/r
Spam
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 27, 2020, 06:49:23 PMImprovise!
Adapt!
Overcome!
This situation is particularly severe, but there are always challenges and obstacles in life.
This is also an opportunity to examine how we do things and update our methods.
On Target, Gunny Highway! Fire for effect!
That was exactly my thought when I said "
adapt to survive in the changing environment", above.
V/r
Spam
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 27, 2020, 06:49:23 PMImprovise!
Adapt!
Overcome!
This situation is particularly severe, but there are always challenges and obstacles in life.
This is also an opportunity to examine how we do things and update our methods.
We did, we are growing, we are flying, we are having a grand old time of it.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:20:27 PMThe CP has been, and will be, negatively effected significantly for the foreseeable.
Membership is down nationally over 7% year over year, which includes nearly 2700 cadets.
The inexplicable bump CAP experienced over the last two or so years has been essentially
erased, but worse, there are little to no new members who would normally feed the annual churn
(which has been said to be as high as 40+% for cadets). That means the waterfall drop
is about to get a lot steeper before it gets better.
Sadly, I'm expecting a 25% loss in cadet membership between now and Christmas.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:20:27 PMThe lack of extra-unit activities which are the anchor for many older cadets is going to compound
the problem further...
Not just extra-unit activities, but
ANY unit activities. I've been really surprised by the number of units I'm finding that have held absolutely zero meetings of any kind since March. Attempts to reach out to those units have been like trying call a payphone in the desert... while they may exist on paper, they have effectively evaporated into the ether without so much as an echo.
Local leaders need to be flexible and think outside the box. Instead of saying, "We can't do (fill_in_the_blank)!" they need to be asking, "How can we do (fill_in_the_blank)?" I constantly preach to others
(um, I mean mentor others) that we need stop saying "no" and start finding "a path to yes". It might be a "yes, but..." and that's okay, at least we're still saying yes.
We are in unprecedented times and need to be creative in finding ways to keep members engaged because "business as usual" is no longer an option.
I think an issue you're going to see, if you don't already, is how your Wing and local squadrons compare to your state and local areas.
In our state, school sports are back in season. I just attended a middle school football game yesterday; full contact. They've been practicing for several weeks now. Schools are already back to in-person classes. College students are in their dorms.
But while we're approved for Phase I, we're still rocking Phase 0.
There's no way to compete with the outside world right now. It's dwindling. They can actually go do "kid stuff" again, minus all of the fun stuff that we used to offer in CAP. They're not stuck indoors anymore or out of social interaction anymore.
Quote from: baronet68 on August 27, 2020, 09:01:14 PMI've been really surprised by the number of units I'm finding that have held absolutely zero meetings of any kind since March. Attempts to reach out to those units have been like trying call a payphone in the desert... while they may exist on paper, they have effectively evaporated into the ether without so much as an echo.
Local leaders need to be flexible and think outside the box. Instead of saying, "We can't do (fill_in_the_blank)!" they need to be asking, "How can we do (fill_in_the_blank)?" I constantly preach to others (um, I mean mentor others) that we need stop saying "no" and start finding "a path to yes". It might be a "yes, but..." and that's okay, at least we're still saying yes.
I told my Wing leadership on a staff call that I had concerns over units that were not meeting regularly during COVID-19. I was asked as to why I think those units were struggling to meeting.
My response was that I feel that these units have been struggling at their in-person meetings for quite some time, and we're only really seeing the visible signs of it now that there are no virtual meetings. Now that we're actively running promotion reports in eServices, we can see that these aren't just units that haven't had much going on for a couple of months; I see signs of units not having promotions since late 2019.
Their respective leaders need to get on them. This isn't just a "I don't know what to do" since March thing.
Quote from: baronet68 on August 27, 2020, 09:01:14 PMNot just extra-unit activities, but ANY unit activities. I've been really surprised by the number of units I'm finding that have held absolutely zero meetings of any kind since March. Attempts to reach out to those units have been like trying call a payphone in the desert... while they may exist on paper, they have effectively evaporated into the ether without so much as an echo.
Local leaders need to be flexible and think outside the box. Instead of saying, "We can't do (fill_in_the_blank)!" they need to be asking, "How can we do (fill_in_the_blank)?"
Has the upper leadership communicated that level of thinking to its lower leadership in your wing? Perhaps in their COVID remobilization plan as part of keeping phase zero not "activity zero"?
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 27, 2020, 09:05:53 PMNow that we're actively running promotion reports in eServices,
Without putting too fine a point on it, why is this only happening now?
This was and is something I do regularly, and after 20 years, I can basically
spot a checked out member from 50k with nothing other then that report.
Now, to be fair, the alarm bells about this often fall on disinterested ears, but
at least there's no excuse of surprise.
Frankly I think the bubble actually popped late last year, but it's only now
that it can no longer be ignored since there's no churn on the front end to
protect the loss from being visible.
Quote from: Holding Pattern on August 27, 2020, 09:18:05 PMQuote from: baronet68 on August 27, 2020, 09:01:14 PMNot just extra-unit activities, but ANY unit activities. I've been really surprised by the number of units I'm finding that have held absolutely zero meetings of any kind since March. Attempts to reach out to those units have been like trying call a payphone in the desert... while they may exist on paper, they have effectively evaporated into the ether without so much as an echo.
Local leaders need to be flexible and think outside the box. Instead of saying, "We can't do (fill_in_the_blank)!" they need to be asking, "How can we do (fill_in_the_blank)?"
Has the upper leadership communicated that level of thinking to its lower leadership in your wing? Perhaps in their COVID remobilization plan as part of keeping phase zero not "activity zero"?
I live in WAWG but in my role I'm tracking this from the national perspective and the same story seems to be playing out across much of the country. While some wings are doing a good job of actively encouraging units to engage members and conduct virtual activities, there are a few wings that are doing absolutely nothing, giving little or no guidance to subordinate units.
Quote from: baronet68 on August 28, 2020, 01:48:51 AMI live in WAWG but in my role I'm tracking this from the national perspective and the same story seems to be playing out across much of the country. While some wings are doing a good job of actively encouraging units to engage members and conduct virtual activities, there are a few wings that are doing absolutely nothing, giving little or no guidance to subordinate units.
Leadership matters. Ours is doing well, we are growing and reaching out to our stakeholders and the broad community. Yours could as well.
Quote from: JohhnyD on August 27, 2020, 07:07:21 PMOur unit is up over 30% year over year, new cadets, new SM and new NCOs. Action matters.
In the last 8 weeks our unit has gained 4 seniors and 3 cadets. We haven't been over 30 members total in the last 3 years, to my best recollection. As of 1 August we were down to 20 active seniors and 4 cadets. As of today we are at 23 seniors with 1 getting their Form 12 next week and 1 more in 2 weeks. We will be up to 7 cadets by 1 September.
We also started online virtual meetings within 2 weeks of going into Phase 0 in March. In my opinion that is what kept the active members active and recruiting same as usual.
Quote from: CAPJOE on August 28, 2020, 07:20:08 AMQuote from: JohhnyD on August 27, 2020, 07:07:21 PMOur unit is up over 30% year over year, new cadets, new SM and new NCOs. Action matters.
In the last 8 weeks our unit has gained 4 seniors and 3 cadets. We haven't been over 30 members total in the last 3 years, to my best recollection. As of 1 August we were down to 20 active seniors and 4 cadets. As of today we are at 23 seniors with 1 getting their Form 12 next week and 1 more in 2 weeks. We will be up to 7 cadets by 1 September.
We also started online virtual meetings within 2 weeks of going into Phase 0 in March. In my opinion that is what kept the active members active and recruiting same as usual.
Good job Joe! Now get your CC and PAO out in the community! We do that the last Tuesday of every month now and we are getting WOW results!
The one thing I keep hoping is that, even though we will lose a percentage of our membership, so will almost every other youth organization in the Country, and those displaced members will want to find something new. If we lose 5 or 6 Cadets from our Squadron, could we pick up 5 or 6 displaced Cadets from the Young Marines, Sea Cadets, Boy Scouts etc.? Many kids leave one extracurricular activity and then look for another, and we can hopefully be that activity they go to.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 09:51:00 PMQuote from: TheSkyHornet on August 27, 2020, 09:05:53 PMNow that we're actively running promotion reports in eServices,
Without putting too fine a point on it, why is this only happening now?
Because
I'm actually doing it, and looking at it for the entire Wing. I'm also reporting the information up the chain and talking regularly to my team about it.
The units that I have reached out to with issues continue to have issues. And their responses were relatively benign if not ignorant to the fact that the program didn't just disappear in March. That tells me that there was a gap long before COVID-19 in the performance management of their unit.
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 28, 2020, 01:05:31 PMThe one thing I keep hoping is that, even though we will lose a percentage of our membership, so will almost every other youth organization in the Country, and those displaced members will want to find something new. If we lose 5 or 6 Cadets from our Squadron, could we pick up 5 or 6 displaced Cadets from the Young Marines, Sea Cadets, Boy Scouts etc.? Many kids leave one extracurricular activity and then look for another, and we can hopefully be that activity they go to.
That's an very risky approach to take. And it's not true.
There are a
lot of local youth activities that are still going on. Many "reopened" as soon as their states permitted. Many don't have national-level red tape. In my state, summer camps, sports, recreation centers, church groups, and youth clubs have all been meeting for most of summer. Sure, there are some limitations still in place (face masks, social distancing, gathering numbers), but they're not shut down and haven't been for quite some time.
We're way more delayed in opening than many of the alternative options in our locale.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 28, 2020, 02:27:32 PMQuote from: Capt Thompson on August 28, 2020, 01:05:31 PMThe one thing I keep hoping is that, even though we will lose a percentage of our membership, so will almost every other youth organization in the Country, and those displaced members will want to find something new. If we lose 5 or 6 Cadets from our Squadron, could we pick up 5 or 6 displaced Cadets from the Young Marines, Sea Cadets, Boy Scouts etc.? Many kids leave one extracurricular activity and then look for another, and we can hopefully be that activity they go to.
That's an very risky approach to take. And it's not true.
There are a lot of local youth activities that are still going on. Many "reopened" as soon as their states permitted. Many don't have national-level red tape. In my state, summer camps, sports, recreation centers, church groups, and youth clubs have all been meeting for most of summer. Sure, there are some limitations still in place (face masks, social distancing, gathering numbers), but they're not shut down and haven't been for quite some time.
We're way more delayed in opening than many of the alternative options in our locale.
I know around here, Boy Scouts pretty much went silent for the summer, I know a few Scout leaders that tried the Zoom thing without being able to get many of their Scouts to take part. Pretty much every organization in this area was in the same boat as we were. With the restrictions put in place by the Governor, it was nearly impossible for any youth org to meet at all.
I think larger Squadrons will be able to reach out and recruit to fill the numbers back in quickly if this thing only lasts this year. If we go back to Phase 0 in the Winter though and stay closed into next Summer, it's a whole other story. Smaller units with only 2 Seniors and 3 Cadets may be gone for good as Eclipse pointed out.
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 28, 2020, 02:48:31 PMI know around here, Boy Scouts pretty much went silent for the summer, I know a few Scout leaders that tried the Zoom thing without being able to get many of their Scouts to take part. Pretty much every organization in this area was in the same boat as we were. With the restrictions put in place by the Governor, it was nearly impossible for any youth org to meet at all.
But again, that's a national-level organization. And you have state orders that vary.
In our state, we were not really shutdown internally for all that long. We reopened relatively quickly with some restrictions. We've been able to gather, go to restaurants, go to the gym, all of the "usual things" with some added rules for a while. But we're still Phase 0 in CAP.
QuoteI think larger Squadrons will be able to reach out and recruit to fill the numbers back in quickly if this thing only lasts this year. If we go back to Phase 0 in the Winter though and stay closed into next Summer, it's a whole other story. Smaller units with only 2 Seniors and 3 Cadets may be gone for good as Eclipse pointed out.
I completely agree with you there.
But we've always seen small units of five people on the risk of closing at any time. You can't run an effective program that way. It's not fun, and it doesn't recruit the numbers needed to be very productive. There's no leadership program when there are three cadets in the room. So, yes, closing up until next summer is a death warrant for that unit. But that unit was on the verge of collapse anyway. Maybe COVID-19 took away their fighting chance, but it was a long shot to begin with.
Where I'm seeing the collapse is just the comparison to other activities that they can do. And with schools starting back on in-person, we're going to be even more doomed as an organization.
This might be one of those things where we really need to start grass rooting our remobilization. I'm in a yellow state with several orange counties and a couple of red counties. Do we really need to keep the entire state/Wing closed?
If the concern is that units won't follow the rules, maybe it's time to start seriously addressing those unit commanders and stop with the email reminders of the policy.
I hope but we have lost over 80% of our cadets
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 28, 2020, 02:48:31 PMI know around here, Boy Scouts pretty much went silent for the summer
Yep - we barely got our two through the last steps of Eagle on fumes, and it was only
because the work had essentially been done and all we had to do was bulldog the
committees to hold their boards, etc., virtually (and even THAT was a push).
But week-to-week. Very little, and even less Scout related - lots of "sparkling" and
candy hand-throughs, and not much related to being a Scout.
Kids join these orgs to do "stuff" - Scouts want to camp and tromp in the woods,
12 year olds join CAP to play Army and by the time they are 15 are looking for the
leadership labs to take them into "next". The last thing they want is more time
on a screen (unless it's Fortnite).
Home-schoolers and grass-roots efforts?
They weren't the saviors of CAP before and won't be now. If they were they already would be.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 28, 2020, 05:53:51 PMBut week-to-week. Very little, and even less Scout related - lots of "sparkling" and
candy hand-throughs, and not much related to being a Scout.
Sir, sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion!
;D
V/r
Donnie "Spam" Darko
Very Notorious of you to think that!
WRT Homeschool efforts:
Homeschoolers represent approximately 3.5% of the student population of the United States.[1 (https://nces.ed.gov/blogs/nces/post/a-fresh-look-at-homeschooling-in-the-u-s)]
In Civil Air Patrol, over 23% of cadets report they are homeschooled on their membership application.
I kind of think that 1/4 of the CP being homeschooled means that we're doing an pretty decent job of reaching the homeschool community. To the point where there's probably not a gigantic burning need to go out of your way to do much more than you're already doing in normal recruiting to access homeschoolers. (I could be wrong, and certainly don't stop recruiting homeschoolers, but its not like homeschoolers are underrepresented in CAP).
Now, to the question of whether COVID will kill the cadet program?
- I think COVID will kill the cadet program in some areas. Got a unit in your wing thats one of those "barely hanging on by their fingernails every year come charter review time" units? Yeah, COVID-19 is stomping all over those fingernails. They're probably going to have less than half the number of cadets required to maintain a chartered unit come February.
- With the loss of a CAP unit in those areas (ie. the unit just basically dissolves into nothing), it will take literally years (5 or more) to regain footprint elsewhere to make up for that. You lose a CAP unit in a small town, you've lost the seedcorn or the kernel of activity that was there. Now, "replanting" CAP (to continue on with the "corn" metaphor) in those places will be several times more difficult.
- CAP experienced a massive loss in its cadet program twice previously in our existence.
The first was in 1956, when the CP went from 50,547 at the end of 1955 to 36,545 at the end of 1956. A loss of 28%. The second was in 1967, when we lost 30% of our cadet strength from our starting strength.
Why did these things happen? The 1956 loss could be attributed to a new cadet program that was laid out at that time. The Korean War was over, so it wasn't that.
The 1967 loss is often attributed to the war in Vietnam, but I think it was something else that contributed: the "timing out" of cadets who no longer grandfathered from the "old" cadet program to the 1964 Jack V. Sorenson cadet program. When the program changed in 1964, there was probably a phase-in period, and cadets who stuck around in 1965 and 1966 probably realized that they weren't going to move along in the cadet program the same way they did before and eventually just quit during 1967.
So in years hence, when we look at the end strength of cadets for 2020 compared to 2019, we'll probably see a serious drop off of around 25%, and next to that year will be notated "COVID-19".
Quote from: NIN on August 29, 2020, 01:24:58 AMThe 1967 loss is often attributed to the war in Vietnam, but I think it was something else that contributed: the "timing out" of cadets who no longer grandfathered from the "old" cadet program to the 1964 Jack V. Sorenson cadet program. When the program changed in 1964, there was probably a phase-in period, and cadets who stuck around in 1965 and 1966 probably realized that they weren't going to move along in the cadet program the same way they did before and eventually just quit during 1967.
So in years hence, when we look at the end strength of cadets for 2020 compared to 2019, we'll probably see a serious drop off of around 25%, and next to that year will be notated "COVID-19".
IIRC, the phase-in period was 12 months, 1 Sep 63 to 31 Aug 64. I joined during the transition period, and completed Ach 1 under the olde program.
Each unit could select a time within the year to change over, and mine selected 1 June 1964. Everyone in an olde achievement had to complete it by that date. Any achievements started after that date were in the new program. All rank was retained, and you picked up where you left off, using the new materials.
Speaking of new materials, the biggest change was the leadership lab. The aero ed stuff stayed mostly the same. Limitations on cadet officer promotions were eased, but didn't go away until some time in the '70s.
Quote from: NIN on August 29, 2020, 01:24:58 AMWRT Homeschool efforts:
Homeschoolers represent approximately 3.5% of the student population of the United States.[1 (https://nces.ed.gov/blogs/nces/post/a-fresh-look-at-homeschooling-in-the-u-s)]
In Civil Air Patrol, over 23% of cadets report they are homeschooled on their membership application.
3.5% of 56.4 million (see https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372) =1,974,000 students.
23% of 27,120 (current eServices cadet count) = 6237.
6237 as a percentage of 1.974MM = 0.3%
Quote from: NIN on August 29, 2020, 01:24:58 AMI kind of think that 1/4 of the CP being homeschooled means that we're doing an pretty decent job of reaching the homeschool community. To the point where there's probably not a gigantic burning need to go out of your way to do much more than you're already doing in normal recruiting to access homeschoolers. (I could be wrong, and certainly don't stop recruiting homeschoolers, but its not like homeschoolers are underrepresented in CAP).
A three tenths of one percent market penetration ain't much. But frankly, our overall R&R program is pathetic with a capital P.
We have achieved a YOY 30+ percent growth rate with a tiny effort by a very few members. Imagine what we could do?
Quote from: JohhnyD on August 29, 2020, 09:18:05 AM.... 30+ percent growth rate with a tiny effort by a very few members.
And thats the key. Squadron growth is grass roots by the members themselves. Yes, national can give you some marketing materials ... but its all about the existing members reaching out to friends, family and others in their community to get the word out. Squadrons are day and night different. Some have those members who are great at outreach ... most don't.
Undoubtedly, the past 6 months have been a challenge and I think CAP (as will many organizations and other entities) will emerge from COVID changed. I know I have had personal challenges of maintaining interest as missions I have served on concluded and fixed wing flying dropped dramatically.
Virtual training (not just Volunteer University) is (I hope) here to stay to expand educational opportunities for the membership.
sUAS will continue to expand immensely as we look to not only expand, but to also standardize the sUAS fleet on an airframe (Skydio 2) that's within financial reach of members and units to have their own kits for local training.
Cyber will continue to expand. The Cisco 15-week Learn-a-thon is getting close to launching as well as access to Cisco Networking Academy for the entire membership.
Change is hard. No doubt.
Will we loose some member? Sadly, as we have already seen, we will. But we'll also come back with renewed focus when things open up again which will bring new members to us.
And if CAP had a similar (3/10th of a percent) market penetration against the entire national student population (56.4M), we'd have 169,000 cadets.
Quote from: Paul Creed III on August 29, 2020, 06:27:58 PMThe Cisco 15-week Learn-a-thon is getting close to launching as well
Details on this?
Quote from: NIN on August 29, 2020, 07:39:40 PMAnd if CAP had a similar (3/10th of a percent) market penetration against the entire national student population (56.4M), we'd have 169,000 cadets.
And?
Our R&R program is pathetic, with a capital "P"!
If every unit had an ambassador (the PAO, the unit CC, an enthusiastic SM) go out into the community and "tell the story" for one full day every month, we could be at that level in one year. We started that 60 days ago (the RSC class inspired a number of our SMs), and two full days in we have an active, brand new NCO program and three nascent detached school-based flights in the early stages of organization, as well as thousands of dollars in current and future donations.
There is NO EXCUSE for our minuscule numbers. None.
Quote from: Holding Pattern on August 29, 2020, 07:47:25 PMQuote from: Paul Creed III on August 29, 2020, 06:27:58 PMThe Cisco 15-week Learn-a-thon is getting close to launching as well
Details on this?
Details coming out soon :-)
https://www.netacadlearnathon.com/
CAP and Cisco have a partnership and all of the CAP-specific information will be released once it is all finalized.
Quote from: Paul Creed III on August 29, 2020, 09:19:43 PMQuote from: Holding Pattern on August 29, 2020, 07:47:25 PMQuote from: Paul Creed III on August 29, 2020, 06:27:58 PMThe Cisco 15-week Learn-a-thon is getting close to launching as well
Details on this?
Details coming out soon :-)
https://www.netacadlearnathon.com/
CAP and Cisco have a partnership and all of the CAP-specific information will be released once it is all finalized.
I know about that partnership, but if you really want to see that marathon work, PLEASE communicate it at least 60 days in advance to the units. Preferably in an "all members" blast.
It would be a great opportunity to hype it and encourage membership across the board for people with interest.
Quote from: JohhnyD on August 29, 2020, 08:35:03 PMIf every unit had an ambassador ... "tell the story" for one full day every month, we could be at that level in one year.
Some squadrons just don't have that great "ambassador" with selling skills.
But that brings up another issue. Everyone in the squadron thinking "someone else" needs to be out there recruiting. Negative ... its the job of every individual member to spread the word in their part of the community. Don't look to others to recruit. Its our job.
Have the 30 second elevator speech ready. And don't just be ready. Look for opportunites.
Quote from: etodd on August 30, 2020, 12:21:25 AMSome squadrons just don't have that great "ambassador" with selling skills.
Check. That type person ought to be your next recruit. A property and casualty insurance guy, a life insurance guy, a vehicle fleet sales guy (guy is a generic term that includes both sexes, see the OED) - go find a team of ambassadors! (Your local Chamber is filled with them!)
Quote from: etodd on August 30, 2020, 12:21:25 AMBut that brings up another issue. Everyone in the squadron thinking "someone else" needs to be out there recruiting. Negative ... its the job of every individual member to spread the word in their part of the community. Don't look to others to recruit. Its our job.
Have the 30 second elevator speech ready. And don't just be ready. Look for opportunites.
Ding - Ding - Ding!
WINNER, WINNER, Chicken Dinner!
BTW a "mediocre" storyteller with energy and enthusiasm is worth more than a great salesman that never gets out. Go out and tell the story!
Quote from: JohhnyD on August 29, 2020, 08:35:03 PMOur R&R program is pathetic, with a capital "P"!
You and I should talk sometime. I'd love to hear your ideas.
Quote from: Paul Creed III on August 29, 2020, 06:27:58 PMVirtual training (not just Volunteer University) is (I hope) here to stay to expand educational opportunities for the membership.
sUAS will continue to expand immensely as we look to not only expand, but to also standardize the sUAS fleet on an airframe (Skydio 2) that's within financial reach of members and units to have their own kits for local training.
Cyber will continue to expand. The Cisco 15-week Learn-a-thon is getting close to launching as well as access to Cisco Networking Academy for the entire membership.
We'll also come back with renewed focus when things open up again which will bring new members to us.
I think you're entirely correct. We've seen a major uptick in virtual training for senior members (which has been requested for a very long time) and a greater participation by some in traditionally virtual activities (such as Cyber). I think virtual STEM has also been well accepted by many units and their members.
But I do think that we're going to need to see the return (and sustaining) of hands-on programs. You're always going to see a dedicated focus group that's really heavily into the "classroom"-type STEM/IT-linked universe. But, as goes with most youth organizations, the bulk is going to be in hands-on lab experimentation and social activities. The "sitting at the computer" activities have a niche market, which is great. But I don't see that being the main driver of CAP, at least from a numbers standpoint (no matter how much, in reality, those computer-based activities may be the future of their actual work environment; at least for many).
Squadrons are going to need to rebound and return to some sense of normalcy from pre-COVID-style training activities. But I think COVID-19 has provided us with a way to better integrate that virtual classroom into our activities to supplement the hands-on stuff.
The issue I see, and it really goes back to the same unit problems I've seen over and over in some areas, is that you still have to have a dedicated adult cadre that can motivate their cadets to run that type of program. And if you have a cadre that just doesn't push and build these activities, it's going to continue to dwindle. Sure, you'll get a few trickle ins, maybe even a large Great Start class, but will they be retained over the year (or after two years)?
Quote from: etodd on August 30, 2020, 12:21:25 AMQuote from: JohhnyD on August 29, 2020, 08:35:03 PMIf every unit had an ambassador ... "tell the story" for one full day every month, we could be at that level in one year.
Some squadrons just don't have that great "ambassador" with selling skills.
But that brings up another issue. Everyone in the squadron thinking "someone else" needs to be out there recruiting. Negative ... its the job of every individual member to spread the word in their part of the community. Don't look to others to recruit. Its our job.
Have the 30 second elevator speech ready. And don't just be ready. Look for opportunites.
I think this is an oversimplification of the issue.
It's not just that everyone wants someone else to do it. There's a natural discomfort for a lot of people in being that individual, and perhaps their unit doesn't empower them to be that person when a new face walks into the room or when an outside opportunity opens up.
For me, personally, I'm not that person. I'm not the elevator speech guy. I'm the busy one who is running around trying to get 10 million things done in two hours, plus all of the other work that I have throughout the week. I'm just not going to be the one to hit up the Chamber of Commerce or go to the street fair with the booth set up. It just won't happen with me, at least not in the present era.
Units struggle a lot with:
1.) Having members who regularly show up
2.) Having members who reliable perform their existing roles
3.) Having members who can convey accurate information
4.) Having members who are willing to serve as the "face" of the unit, even if only for 30 seconds
One of the fallacies of CAP is that we recruit people who have a lot to offer and then leave them bored in the corner due to a lack of leadership that motivates them to fulfill a useful role that they can contribute in. I don't think that's always the case. It's often that an individual is recruited and elects to "serve" or assist on their own terms, and the unit struggles to employ that person because it's more of a hassle than it is to leave them bored in the corner. And often times, leadership doesn't want to address the issue, which really just builds and builds over time.
It's a great tool to sometimes use parents to help gives their kids that boost when you have a senior member-cadet family that joins. But in many cases, that senior member causes a lot of headaches, and the cadet is often impacted by it.
One thing I have absolutely struggled with in the virtual age is that we can't let our cadet staff go into a room and hold a staff meeting. Whenever it's virtual, there are often parents sitting in the other room chirping in the background and trying to assist. It's difficult to have those heart-to-heart/"Get your stuff together" meetings and feedback sessions over a computer.
One of the best retainers that we have is the ability to have adult level conversations with teenagers about their performance and actually help them see their own improvements. But to do that, we often have to have those serious conversations in a private/semi-private setting, and we don't get that when they're at home. The context of the conversation also can be significantly broken through a phone call or virtual chat. It's just not the way we want to operate, and it's not as effective as a face-to-face meeting.
I'm concerned about the slow return rate from cadets, particularly those whose parents, despite the restrictions being lifted, will choose not to send their kids to meetings. I'm already starting to hear it in the distance, and it's going to be problematic. At some point, we have to halt the virtual gatherings, and we're not going to do 50% Virtual, 50% Face-to-Face. They're going to have to show up.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 31, 2020, 09:14:09 PMQuote from: etodd on August 30, 2020, 12:21:25 AMQuote from: JohhnyD on August 29, 2020, 08:35:03 PMIf every unit had an ambassador ... "tell the story" for one full day every month, we could be at that level in one year.
Some squadrons just don't have that great "ambassador" with selling skills.
But that brings up another issue. Everyone in the squadron thinking "someone else" needs to be out there recruiting. Negative ... its the job of every individual member to spread the word in their part of the community. Don't look to others to recruit. Its our job.
Have the 30 second elevator speech ready. And don't just be ready. Look for opportunites.
I think this is an oversimplification of the issue.
It's not just that everyone wants someone else to do it. There's a natural discomfort for a lot of people in being that individual, and perhaps their unit doesn't empower them to be that person when a new face walks into the room or when an outside opportunity opens up.
For me, personally, I'm not that person. I'm not the elevator speech guy. I'm the busy one who is running around trying to get 10 million things done in two hours, plus all of the other work that I have throughout the week. I'm just not going to be the one to hit up the Chamber of Commerce or go to the street fair with the booth set up. It just won't happen with me, at least not in the present era.
Units struggle a lot with:
1.) Having members who regularly show up
2.) Having members who reliable perform their existing roles
3.) Having members who can convey accurate information
4.) Having members who are willing to serve as the "face" of the unit, even if only for 30 seconds
One of the fallacies of CAP is that we recruit people who have a lot to offer and then leave them bored in the corner due to a lack of leadership that motivates them to fulfill a useful role that they can contribute in. I don't think that's always the case. It's often that an individual is recruited and elects to "serve" or assist on their own terms, and the unit struggles to employ that person because it's more of a hassle than it is to leave them bored in the corner. And often times, leadership doesn't want to address the issue, which really just builds and builds over time.
It's a great tool to sometimes use parents to help gives their kids that boost when you have a senior member-cadet family that joins. But in many cases, that senior member causes a lot of headaches, and the cadet is often impacted by it.
One thing I have absolutely struggled with in the virtual age is that we can't let our cadet staff go into a room and hold a staff meeting. Whenever it's virtual, there are often parents sitting in the other room chirping in the background and trying to assist. It's difficult to have those heart-to-heart/"Get your stuff together" meetings and feedback sessions over a computer.
One of the best retainers that we have is the ability to have adult level conversations with teenagers about their performance and actually help them see their own improvements. But to do that, we often have to have those serious conversations in a private/semi-private setting, and we don't get that when they're at home. The context of the conversation also can be significantly broken through a phone call or virtual chat. It's just not the way we want to operate, and it's not as effective as a face-to-face meeting.
I'm concerned about the slow return rate from cadets, particularly those whose parents, despite the restrictions being lifted, will choose not to send their kids to meetings. I'm already starting to hear it in the distance, and it's going to be problematic. At some point, we have to halt the virtual gatherings, and we're not going to do 50% Virtual, 50% Face-to-Face. They're going to have to show up.
Yep, some parents will be our biggest problem. The best we can do is have a plan to deal with it.
Just remember the Cadet Programs motto - Semper Gumby!
Quote from: PHall on September 01, 2020, 12:03:19 AMYep, some parents will be our biggest problem.
I don't know that I would classify a parent who makes the decision on when it's safe to for their children to start mixing with others in public as a problem. Especially in areas where politics and not science seems to be driving the decision making.
Quote from: Fubar on September 01, 2020, 01:20:39 AMQuote from: PHall on September 01, 2020, 12:03:19 AMYep, some parents will be our biggest problem.
I don't know that I would classify a parent who makes the decision on when it's safe to for their children to start mixing with others in public as a problem. Especially in areas where politics and not science seems to be driving the decision making.
I agree this will vary be region, but I was surprised when we were allowed to resume in-person meetings that none of the parents held their Cadets back. There are some parents that are more concerned about masks and other precautions, but after several months of Zoom there wasn't a single one that prevented their Cadet from coming back in-person.
Changed my mind - I was endorsing SkyHornet's previous post but started to rant, so I stopped!
That said - two hours plus etc is common, and I don't have the time for the rest. The "time drain" is forcing me to a hard choice over CAP, next year, and I can feel it from the cadets also. Eclipse made a good point earlier, when he pointed to units (like mine) that are at the edge of the Wing AO - for us, the current environment is far from good. No amount of Chamber visits, booths here and there etc is going to fix the problem that we can't - and won't - for the foreseeable future offer anything close to the range of activities that we could 12 months ago.
Quote from: Fubar on September 01, 2020, 01:20:39 AMQuote from: PHall on September 01, 2020, 12:03:19 AMYep, some parents will be our biggest problem.
I don't know that I would classify a parent who makes the decision on when it's safe to for their children to start mixing with others in public as a problem. Especially in areas where politics and not science seems to be driving the decision making.
I don't think he's talking about parents keeping their cadets out due to covid, but rather the very common issues we have with parents being members and either pushing for exceptions and special treatment for their cadet or not letting their cadet grow in CAP.
Quote from: Fubar on September 01, 2020, 01:20:39 AMQuote from: PHall on September 01, 2020, 12:03:19 AMYep, some parents will be our biggest problem.
I don't know that I would classify a parent who makes the decision on when it's safe to for their children to start mixing with others in public as a problem. Especially in areas where politics and not science seems to be driving the decision making.
I don't want this to turn into a debate of "what about flu season," etc. Parents always have the right to deny their children the ability to participate at a meeting. But they need to understand that it will still impact that child as a cadet. That's just how this program is. If a parent denies their kid the ability to go to Encampment (and I've seen it), then that kid doesn't receive their Mitchell Award. I understand that, right now, there's the issue of communicable diseases (and there always have been). People are much more reluctant to expose their kids to disease right now. And that's entirely fair.
But we can't let cadets be virtual forever. As units remobilize, the program returns to face-to-face meetings. Eventually, there is no more of the virtual option. If they feel that the unit moved too fast for them to be comfortable, then their kid doesn't show, and the cadet doesn't advance.
When I say the returns will be problematic, though, I'm not really referring to the parents being problematic in that sense. It's problematic for the squadron to have reduced staffing and minimal manpower to run essential functions of the training program, whether by the absence of key leaders or key participants.
Quote from: arajca on September 01, 2020, 02:47:59 PMI don't think he's talking about parents keeping their cadets out due to covid, but rather the very common issues we have with parents being members and either pushing for exceptions and special treatment for their cadet or not letting their cadet grow in CAP.
Yes, this.
Anyone who has worked in Cadet Programs for several years should be able to recall an experience or two of having to deal with a problematic parent.
I had a mom who refused her cadet to attend any activities that the cadet didn't pay for on their own. When I explained that we have fundraisers that cover the costs, the mom was actually quite mad. She felt like her kid wasn't learning the value of "pay your way" and "don't take handouts." I explained that we had the privilege of having enough of a financial income that we could spend the time focusing on the training aspect and not the fundraising aspect. She pulled her cadet out of the program after the following week (some other issues involved there since the inception of their membership, but you get the idea). Honestly, it was truly bizarre.
I had a dad who was upset that his cadet wasn't put into a higher level staff role. He caught me at the end of a meeting and pulled me aside, with the cadet present, and asked me why I wouldn't give his kid a fair shot. I said that the cadet rarely attends and isn't very reliable in participating. The dad asked why I was denying their promotion. I had no clue what he was talking about. He clarified that the cadet told him that we wouldn't let them test. I explained that their tests are online and conducted at their own pace. The dad looked at his cadet and said "You told me they wouldn't let you test." I said "Do you two want a moment to talk about this further?" Of course, that cadet had issues with some of the other cadets in the unit and ended up transferring. I know the claims of the unit not being supportive went along with their transfer, along with some other claims. They rarely participated at their new unit, who had similar issues as us.
Then there's the cadet whose parents are so distrusting that they need to join and participate at every activity. Okay, participate is a stretch. They show up and don't help. They engage in every planning discussion but don't actually contribute to any level of effort, at least not in the direction we want to go. It becomes very argumentative, and then they ask why they don't get the invite to the next meeting. Actually, this isn't just one. There are several I have that do this. They usually resort to some accusation of bullying or -ism as the reason we don't do this or that.
All of these examples do nothing but waste people's time and hurt the cadet. It's embarrassing and negatively impacting for the cadet.
And, really, I think it's worse during COVID-19 than face-to-face meetings. At least, during the in-person activities, they can break away from their family, even if just for a few hours. During COVID, they're just always surrounded by it, and every time we try to work with that cadet and make a little bit of progress, there's someone in the background coaching it from the other side.
That's what I mean when I say "problematic."
There is simply no denying the fact that CAP as a whole, and especially the CP, will
be limping for at least the next year, and impacted in a non-trivial way for the foreseeable.
We have an entire "class" of perishable cadets who will have basically missed at least a year
of participation, if not more, and no manner of waivers, allowances, or other retention plays
will change that.
The idea that a recruiting push during a time when the organization is still essentially
shut down, that NCOs will be the saviors of CAP, or any of the other "solutions" which
have always been on the table, yet somehow were never factors is simply magical thinking.
While CAP had an inexplicable bump in membership over the last 2-3 years (which is now all but gone)
it has had an engagement problem throughout my 21 years in, exacerbated by, if not directly caused by,
the focus on retention over member participation (which is one of the reasons IMHO for the bump - namely
pressure from NHQ to NOT normalize the empty shirts in order to raise the numbers).
What CAP is seeing now is what happens to an organization with a longstanding, and essentially ignored, membership churn that abruptly loses its ready access to raw product. A lot, if not the majority, of units rely on happenstance recruiting through annual events, and each year that would bring a handful of cadets, a couple of parents, and one or two adults, enough to make it through to the next year.
Rinse, Repeat.
The lack of mission coherence, message coherence, and lack of focus on core values over shiny new ideas,
coupled with the ongoing issues of cliques, appointments based on presence, and all the other Happy! Fun! Time! that makes up CAP for a lot of members just adds ice to the wings (I was going to say "lowers the boat in the water", but...you know..."AIR").
Until there is no question as to kids going to school in person, adults going to work in person, and a reasonable economic recovery, CAP is going to continue to chug on fumes. There's no way around that.
The advice that will go unheeded is that, now that CAP is essentially forced to reboot, it should focused on 2022 and beyond.
Cull the empty shirts.
Move all units to online record keeping.
Work on fixing long broken / missing personnel records.
Fix the marketing, website, and groupware issues (like, you know "DECIDE and REQUIRE" vs. "SUGGEST and
FORGET").
Untie the choke points in eservices and other non-mission focused systems and activities.
Identify the real customers,
press to have 3 and 4-letter agencies actually recognize CAP capabilities
(Which means you have to define those, too).
Focus all plans on FY2022.
This is work all the members, cadets included, could be engaged in virtually, it's important, and means a
"new" CAP spins out lean, mean, and ready to get to work on whatever CAP (and the world) "is" next year.
Or, watch as the membership slips uncontrolled below 50K, which it is on track now to do.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 01, 2020, 05:16:25 PMThere is simply no denying the fact that CAP as a whole, and especially the CP, will
be limping for at least the next year, and impacted in a non-trivial way for the foreseeable.
Our unit is larger (by over 30%) and stronger (more people moving through their tracks or promotions) and flying as much as ever.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 01, 2020, 05:16:25 PMWe have an entire "class" of perishable cadets who will have basically missed at least a year
of participation, if not more, and no manner of waivers, allowances, or other retention plays
will change that.
Ours are as robust as ever. Two just went off to service academies, one just got his solo wings, pretty much (no encampments aside) business as usual.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 01, 2020, 05:16:25 PMThe idea that a recruiting push during a time when the organization is still essentially
shut down, that NCOs will be the saviors of CAP, or any of the other "solutions" which
have always been on the table, yet somehow were never factors is simply magical thinking.
We are doing that, and it is working. No magic, just hard work with a plan and a goal. YMMV.
Quote from: JohhnyD on September 01, 2020, 07:46:36 PMQuote from: Eclipse on September 01, 2020, 05:16:25 PMThere is simply no denying the fact that CAP as a whole, and especially the CP, will
be limping for at least the next year, and impacted in a non-trivial way for the foreseeable.
Our unit is larger (by over 30%) and stronger (more people moving through their tracks or promotions) and flying as much as ever.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 01, 2020, 05:16:25 PMWe have an entire "class" of perishable cadets who will have basically missed at least a year
of participation, if not more, and no manner of waivers, allowances, or other retention plays
will change that.
Ours are as robust as ever. Two just went off to service academies, one just got his solo wings, pretty much (no encampments aside) business as usual.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 01, 2020, 05:16:25 PMThe idea that a recruiting push during a time when the organization is still essentially
shut down, that NCOs will be the saviors of CAP, or any of the other "solutions" which
have always been on the table, yet somehow were never factors is simply magical thinking.
We are doing that, and it is working. No magic, just hard work with a plan and a goal. YMMV.
What do your meetings and activities look like? Are you able to provide/offer some examples?
What Phase is your Wing in?
I'm curious as to what your locale looks like versus ours.
We are in, iirc, phase IV. Aside from indoor social distancing, plus masks and a check-in health screen, pretty much like normal meetings. Last night, three cadet flights of about 20 each drilled on the tarmac, senior members took care of processing new members (four or five, last night) and gave tours to prospective members. Each cadet flight had an NCO advisor working with them, which is new and a great joy.
Quote from: JohhnyD on September 02, 2020, 07:08:04 PMWe are in, iirc, phase IV.
That would be impossible, mostly because the phases only go up to 3, but also because no wing has been approved to go beyond Phase 2. At Phase 2, meetings shouldn't look like normal meetings; limits on the size of gatherings, bias toward outdoor only when possible, double arm interval in formation and 6' distance everywhere else, the more susceptible high risk members still staying away from meetings, none of that should feel like a normal pre-rona meeting.
Quote from: JohhnyD on September 02, 2020, 07:08:04 PMLast night, three cadet flights of about 20 each drilled on the tarmac, senior members took care of processing new members (four or five, last night) and gave tours to prospective members. Each cadet flight had an NCO advisor working with them, which is new and a great joy.
So what you're saying is that you had at least 70 people at a meeting where you are not supposed to have more than 50, copy.
We also have a monthly community outreach day where two members spend a day visiting folks. July was veterans and community groups, August was schools and this month is airport local businesses (on airport or nearby), for "friend-raising" - recruiting, and donations.
Quote from: jeders on September 02, 2020, 07:32:27 PMSo what you're saying is that you had at least 70 people at a meeting where you are not supposed to have more than 50, copy.
Nope.
Quotehttps://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/IDWG_COVID_Remobilization_Phase_1_A_EA6816C6EB260.pdf
(4) Stage 4. 13-26 JUN
(a) Gatherings, both public and private, of more than 50 people, where appropriate physical
distancing and precautionary measures are observed can occur.
But why would you want to assume that? Very odd.
Quote from: JohhnyD on September 02, 2020, 07:40:03 PMQuote from: jeders on September 02, 2020, 07:32:27 PMSo what you're saying is that you had at least 70 people at a meeting where you are not supposed to have more than 50, copy.
Nope.
Quotehttps://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/IDWG_COVID_Remobilization_Phase_1_A_EA6816C6EB260.pdf
(4) Stage 4. 13-26 JUN
(a) Gatherings, both public and private, of more than 50 people, where appropriate physical
distancing and precautionary measures are observed can occur.
But why would you want to assume that? Very odd.
You're referencing a Wing re-mobilization plan. In the plan you provided it talks about stages which are different than the NHQ defined phases. As Jeders stated, it's impossible for you to be in "Phase" 4 as it does not exist. There are only three phases in the NHQ re-mobilization and no wing is authorized phase 3 at this time.
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/IDWG_COVID_Remobilization_Phase_1_A_EA6816C6EB260.pdf
(4) Stage 4. 13-26 JUN
(a) Gatherings, both public and private, of more than 50 people, where appropriate physical
distancing and precautionary measures are observed can occur.
Our Wing Plan adopted the state of Idaho language.
Y'all are getting tied up in word use. The reality is we are compliant.
Quote from: JohhnyD on September 02, 2020, 08:40:06 PMhttps://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/IDWG_COVID_Remobilization_Phase_1_A_EA6816C6EB260.pdf
(4) Stage 4. 13-26 JUN
(a) Gatherings, both public and private, of more than 50 people, where appropriate physical
distancing and precautionary measures are observed can occur.
Our Wing Plan adopted the state of Idaho language.
Y'all are getting tied up in word use. The reality is we are compliant.
Johnny, what you are quoting are the Idaho state guidelines as of 2 June, not what IDWG CAP is allowing. You are also quoting the Phase 1 plan, not the Phase 2 plan which specifically states that gatherings are limited to 50 people.
Quote from: jeders on September 02, 2020, 08:53:44 PMQuote from: JohhnyD on September 02, 2020, 08:40:06 PMhttps://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/IDWG_COVID_Remobilization_Phase_1_A_EA6816C6EB260.pdf
(4) Stage 4. 13-26 JUN
(a) Gatherings, both public and private, of more than 50 people, where appropriate physical
distancing and precautionary measures are observed can occur.
Our Wing Plan adopted the state of Idaho language.
Y'all are getting tied up in word use. The reality is we are compliant.
Johnny, what you are quoting are the Idaho state guidelines as of 2 June, not what IDWG CAP is allowing. You are also quoting the Phase 1 plan, not the Phase 2 plan which specifically states that gatherings are limited to 50 people.
Yep - https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/IDWG_COVID19_Phase_II_Plan__Approve_E7602CDAB84C6.pdf
And we complied. No gathering exceeded 50 people. Each flight met separately, as did the senior members. Again, we are compliant.
Quote from: JohhnyD on September 03, 2020, 01:48:26 AMQuote from: jeders on September 02, 2020, 08:53:44 PMQuote from: JohhnyD on September 02, 2020, 08:40:06 PMhttps://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/IDWG_COVID_Remobilization_Phase_1_A_EA6816C6EB260.pdf
(4) Stage 4. 13-26 JUN
(a) Gatherings, both public and private, of more than 50 people, where appropriate physical
distancing and precautionary measures are observed can occur.
Our Wing Plan adopted the state of Idaho language.
Y'all are getting tied up in word use. The reality is we are compliant.
Johnny, what you are quoting are the Idaho state guidelines as of 2 June, not what IDWG CAP is allowing. You are also quoting the Phase 1 plan, not the Phase 2 plan which specifically states that gatherings are limited to 50 people.
Yep - https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/IDWG_COVID19_Phase_II_Plan__Approve_E7602CDAB84C6.pdf
And we complied. No gathering exceeded 50 people. Each flight met separately, as did the senior members. Again, we are compliant.
No, you're not. Your 'gathering' clearly had at
least 60+ people there:
"Last night, three cadet flights of about 20 each drilled on the tarmac, senior members took care of processing new members (four or five, last night) and gave tours to prospective members. Each cadet flight had an NCO advisor working with them,"
Unless you're saying that each flight of 20 was its own 'gathering' on a meeting night? That's not how a properly sanctioned CAP meeting works.
~9907
Are we done with the "measuring" contest yet?
Quote from: SarDragon on September 03, 2020, 04:07:00 AMAre we done with the "measuring" contest yet?
Odd stuff, indeed. We are having success and that seems to bother people.
In fairness, we've had multiple meetings on the same night at different locations to allow more Cadets to participate in-person. Even though we're in Phase II now, the State still restricts indoor activities to 10 or less so we still utilize the conference room at the FBO as a second indoor location, so 10 members can be in a class in our building, 10 in the FBO, and others can be out on the tarmac doing drill, pt etc. Depending on the setup, you could conceivably have multiple meetings running simultaneously.
Quote from: JohhnyD on September 03, 2020, 11:01:36 AMOdd stuff, indeed. We are having success and that seems to bother people.
Nobody has a problem with the success, it's the perceived rule breaking and potentially endangering members lives that appears to be taking place to achieve said success. Unless you have multiple locations, as in my previous example, and members meet separately and don't intermingle, you can't have "3 flights of 20 cadets" at a meeting currently. 50 tops, to include all seniors, cadets, guests, guest speakers etc.
Quote from: Capt Thompson on September 03, 2020, 12:35:38 PMNobody has a problem with the success, it's the perceived rule breaking and potentially endangering members lives that appears to be taking place to achieve said success. Unless you have multiple locations, as in my previous example, and members meet separately and don't intermingle, you can't have "3 flights of 20 cadets" at a meeting currently. 50 tops, to include all seniors, cadets, guests, guest speakers etc.
So the presumption that rules are broken is the issue? At no point was there any endangerment, at no point was their more than 20 people in one room, and since each flight was drilling on a different area of the tarmac safety was absolutely maintained.
Y'all might "presume" that rules are being respected instead of trying to play "gotcha", respect is not that hard. And it is the ethical way to approach discussions.
Quote from: JohhnyD on September 03, 2020, 01:41:21 PMQuote from: Capt Thompson on September 03, 2020, 12:35:38 PMNobody has a problem with the success, it's the perceived rule breaking and potentially endangering members lives that appears to be taking place to achieve said success. Unless you have multiple locations, as in my previous example, and members meet separately and don't intermingle, you can't have "3 flights of 20 cadets" at a meeting currently. 50 tops, to include all seniors, cadets, guests, guest speakers etc.
So the presumption that rules are broken is the issue? At no point was there any endangerment, at no point was their more than 20 people in one room, and since each flight was drilling on a different area of the tarmac safety was absolutely maintained.
Y'all might "presume" that rules are being respected instead of trying to play "gotcha", respect is not that hard. And it is the ethical way to approach discussions.
Too many people want to be recognized as the smartest person in the room, though.
Dave, this one is "fork ready". ::)
Quote from: JohhnyD on September 03, 2020, 01:41:21 PMSo the presumption that rules are broken is the issue? At no point was there any endangerment, at no point was their more than 20 people in one room, and since each flight was drilling on a different area of the tarmac safety was absolutely maintained.
I'm going to ask you to read this statement again, slowly to yourself and see if you spot the issue. You're not saying, "at no point did we break the rules," you're saying, "at no point was anyone in danger" which are two completely different statements.
My best advice would be to have your CC contact your Wing Safety Officer, and ask that individual if having 60 Cadets separated into 3 groups of 20 on the tarmac, while another group of Seniors has a business meeting, is allowed. If your Wing approves the activity, then nobody on Captalk really has anything to say about it.
Quote from: PHall on September 03, 2020, 02:36:30 PMDave, this one is "fork ready". ::)
Agreed.
TLDR: Covid will likely have far long lasting effects on CAP and the cadet program, but CAPTalk threads will always be...interesting.