Having some coffee and want to talk about uniforms...

[Eclipse]

Right now I'm doing some vendor support for a HUGE medical information system conference in the Midwest - I found your stimulus money, its right here, literally.

Anyway, there's a pretty big military presence here, certainly big enough to notice, especially when the lion's share of your gig is waiting for something which is pretty stable to break.

So far I've seen USAF, USN & USA officers and NCOs in various flavors, but something struck me - the USAF and USN are in service dress, but the Army guys are all in ACU's.

Also, I've seen plenty of single & double bars, oaks, and even a bird (first time I've seen an active USAF person wearing the cardigan sweater), but the Army guys are all Lt. Cols.

So...nothing to do with CAP, really, but I don't have anywhere else to ask something like this, and the only place I can get wifi is at the closed SB downstairs....

[NIN]

The Army gets married & buried in ACUs, I swear.

The Association of the US Army's annual meeting is a big event each year.   The uniform for the "Opening Ceremony" is a key indicator:

2006:  Specified Uniform: Dress Blues or Class A.   Number of people in ACUs: too few to even worry about.

2007: Specified Uniform: Dress Blues or Class A, then ACUs (depending on what document you read).  Number of people  in ACU: a fair number, but surely not everybody. Probably 75 or 85% of the room was in a dress or service uniform.

2008: Specified Uniform: ACUs.   Number of people in dress or service uniforms?  Something approaching zero.

[PaulR]

I remember the days when the fatigue uniform(camies and working uniforms) were only allowed while working on base, with the only exception being driving to and from work.  Stopping for gas and ect was allowed, otherwise the service dress uniforms had to be worn.

How things have changed!

[PHall]

I remember the days when the fatigue uniform(camies and working uniforms) were only allowed while working on base, with the only exception being driving to and from work.  Stopping for gas and ect was allowed, otherwise the service dress uniforms had to be worn.

How things have changed!

It's still that way in the Air Force, Navy and Marines. The Army just seems to have a unhealthy obsession with the ACU.

[caplegalnc]

We are a nation at war; therefore,  we are wearing ACU's.  That is message we have been given at my level.

Ron Justice
CW2 JA USAR

[Flying Pig]

If thats their justification, then where are their weapons?  I dont agree with it.  But Im no longer in the military. I was in the Marines and in the Army.  I can vouch from personal experience that the Army was always very lax when it came to uniforms compared to the Marines.

Fast forward a few years.  I was sitting in an airport waiting area.  There was a Marine Cpl. sitting in his Alphas, looking very squared away.  A couple rows over, were a couple of Soldiers in their ACU's, with their Camelbacks on. Because I guess we just cant walk to the drinking fountain.  A woman sitting near me asked her husband "I know he is a Marine, but what are the guys in Camouflage?"  He responded, "I think those are ROTC Cadets of some type."  Not to mention they were acting like kids.  I let out a slight chuckle.  There is no reason for military personnel to be traveling in Cammies, ACU's ABU's or whatever in CONUS.  It looks like crap.  But my 8 years are over.  So I guess things change.

[ZigZag911]

The Army has been wearing  BDUs (goes back that far) as their "default uniform of the day" since the late 80s or early 90s, at least.

The thinking, as explained to me by a retired NCO, is that it is a combat uniform (promoting the warrior culture) and, from a practical standpoint, more durable, easier and less expensive to maintain than any of the service combinations.

While I see their point, I think they look ridiculous testifying before Congress in the ACU (the officers physically present; those on video from a combat zone is another matter).....just my opinion.

[Cecil DP]

The Army has been wearing  BDUs (goes back that far) as their "default uniform of the day" since the late 80s or early 90s, at least.

The thinking, as explained to me by a retired NCO, is that it is a combat uniform (promoting the warrior culture) and, from a practical standpoint, more durable, easier and less expensive to maintain than any of the service combinations.

While I see their point, I think they look ridiculous testifying before Congress in the ACU (the officers physically present; those on video from a combat zone is another matter).....just my opinion.

I recall when military were told not to fly in any uniform, because of events on a hijacked TWA flight in the 80's. It made them a target of the hijackers and one was executed in the door of the jet. Now everyone wears the uniform. I can't see wearing the ACU's unless you're on a military charter to/from the sandbox. Otherwise Class A's or civilian clothing.

[hatentx]

As it was explained to me as well was the reason we wear ACUs to everything is that it is the Nation at War thing.  I have even been encouraged to wear my ACUs when I am not around post for the purpose of reminding the public that we are at war.  That was a CSM's words not mine.  I have even seen for promotion boards that rather waering the Class A uniform they have the soldiers show up in ACUs with OTV and ACH now.  With the current change over of the Class A uniform I can see for uniformity reasons the ACUs when appropriate but as for prior to this time eh who knows.  Someone with a much higher pay grade than me is making this rule.  While the ACUs are a utility uniform and I understand this it is so easly to present your self like garbage in them as well.  While I have uniforms I know are not my best and boots the look like garbage this are unifroms I wear with the knowledge of going to the field ranges or doing serious work.  Same as I did in the BDUs.  With the BDUs though you could presnt your self much better as being squard away with nice creases and spit shined  boots, ACUs you have the option of New ACUs and new boots to look squared away.  

[DBlair]

I support the Marine perspective- as it is a utility uniform, then it should only be for utility purposes.

Its not like any branch has just a single uniform, but instead, they have utility and dress combinations of varying formality. Thus, how about using these different combinations in that unless you are in the field or working on something requiring such a uniform, then a more appropriate uniform should be prescribed.

I watched a panel presentation a while back and it included the one of the cabinet Secretaries (If I remember correctly, it was the Sec of Defense) wearing a suit (as were the moderator and most of the audience), and Generals of each branch- all of whom where in Class A with the exception being the Army General.

With the exception of the Army General, the rest looked like Generals should, but the Army General looked more like a PFC than a General. It made him look sloppy, unprofessional, and out of place as if he didn't get the memo about the uniform of the day. I think rather than boosting morale, it makes Soldiers look sloppy and like they don't understand which uniform to wear at what function.

There is a time and place for each uniform- just like you wouldn't see a Marine in full blues fighting in the sandbox, the Army shouldn't be wearing ACUs on occasions normally deemed for Class A uniforms.

[heliodoc]

For twenty one years, I served this country as many on this forum

I look at it this way, We (CAP) can not get it together with our uniforms, so we best be careful on our speculations about how and why the RM Chain of Command does its thing

We as CAP may not like what we see at the airports,  I served in the era of early terrorism, before it was a 9/11 buzzword.  Terrorism was at a height in the 1980's but not on our soil.

When CAP gets it together in its own arena of correct uniform wear, I may be able to easier to swallow ALL the commentary here about the our RM boys and girls.

Hey , CAPers maybe you ought to write the chains of commands about all that ACU wear and how trashy it looks to YOU.

To us former and current service members, we are FOLLOWING what our chain of command directs us to wear.

It a beautiful thing, to have freedoms on this forum to be critical, 'cuz it was folks who either were drafted or volunteered to be in the RM, to give you those freedoms.  But I would pretty much keep the commentary on " how unsqaured " away the ACU looks.  It was't the NCO's or the Officers that picked that uniform

I have seen just as MANY ragtag CAPers in BDU's and Class A's

Want my commentary on that???

[hatentx]

haha dont get me started on the things we wear for espirt de coprs and  such  

[Flying Pig]

Again, as a former Marine and former Soldier.....I think they need to save the cammies for the field.  I have a question for the current Army Soldiers.  Are you directed to wear the ACUs, for example, when traveling, or is it a choice?

[citizensoldier]

The Army has been wearing  BDUs (goes back that far) as their "default uniform of the day" since the late 80s or early 90s, at least.

The thinking, as explained to me by a retired NCO, is that it is a combat uniform (promoting the warrior culture) and, from a practical standpoint, more durable, easier and less expensive to maintain than any of the service combinations.

While I see their point, I think they look ridiculous testifying before Congress in the ACU (the officers physically present; those on video from a combat zone is another matter).....just my opinion.

I recall when military were told not to fly in any uniform, because of events on a hijacked TWA flight in the 80's. It made them a target of the hijackers and one was executed in the door of the jet. Now everyone wears the uniform. I can't see wearing the ACU's unless you're on a military charter to/from the sandbox. Otherwise Class A's or civilian clothing.

Didn't have alot of choice on what I wore flying home on leave from the land of endless sand.  ACUs from BIAP to Ali Al Saleem to the States.  It is a different world and a different Army in a number of ways.  There is now aparently even a "Ceremonial ACU" where full color patches are worn unless they killed that off.

CS

[heliodoc]

Rob

Not going to argue with you.  Been out for awhile and I understand how you feel being a former Marine.  Army and Marines, two different services and beliefs, one common goal on the battefield......

But you served as well as I did, not like we had a choice from the chains of command we operated under

[Pumbaa]

Uniform weenies are out in force....

Perhaps when CAP gets it right then you can comment...

[hatentx]

Again, as a former Marine and former Soldier.....I think they need to save the cammies for the field.  I have a question for the current Army Soldiers.  Are you directed to wear the ACUs, for example, when traveling, or is it a choice?

Again by my COC the guidance is that it depends on the travel and by what mode it is.  Like with out trip to the port recently it was ACUs.  It was in a TMP and a 6 hour trip mind you.  Last time I flew commercial for the Army was in ACUs as well only being that it was my duty uniform for the Veteran thing a town was throwing for us so slightly different there as well.  As best as I can tell now is if it was for officail military buisness then yes you are in ACUs.  The only time I have flown in Class A's was in AIT for Exodus and after graduation.  I dont know if it was a time thing(2004) or because I was at a TRADOC post or just cause I was in AIT.  I have not moved or travel on a military flight or such after then, so when I PCS and such it is real people clothes.  

[capchiro]

I am happy to say that I just returned from Wing Conference and out of almost 200 attendees, I only saw 2-3 out of uniform or with uniform violations.  I even saw one senior in a proper flight suit and he dropped in to give current information on the mission he just flew doing flood assessment due to rising waters in the immediate area.  I don't believe that I saw even one of the double breasted blue jackets.  Everyone looked good and were standing tall.  I am proud to be a member of this great organization and most especially this Wing.  National Commander was there and she was great.  We had a town hall meeting and I believe we were all impressed with her knowledge and enthusiasm of and for the program.  We have a lot of great things coming down the pike in the near future.  More homeland security and CD missions.  To my observation, it looks like we have our uniforms in order. 

[Eclipse]

For twenty one years, I served this country as many on this forum

...snip...

I have seen just as MANY ragtag CAPers in BDU's and Class A's

Want my commentary on that???

You know what helio?  I really don't.  Your self-loathing is really getting old.

This, as I said, literally has nothing to do with CAP, simply an observation I was / am making about an event I am
participating in.  I didn't say it was negative or positive, I merely said it was, and was curious about it.

I made no comparisons to CAP's wear of the uniform, nor did anyone else, and I believe, without exception, those who commented were well within their rights and personal experience as current or ex-military.

For the record, everyone I saw looked sharp, it was simply the paradigm of the services I was interested in, and I appreciate those who answered and shared a valued non-confrontational opinion without dragging CAP into the conversation.

[NIN]

There is now aparently even a "Ceremonial ACU" where full color patches are worn unless they killed that off.

I saw something about that and I was just disgusted beyond belief...

What pogue in the bowels of the Pentagon came up with that brilliant idea?

[notaNCO forever]

There is now aparently even a "Ceremonial ACU" where full color patches are worn unless they killed that off.

I saw something about that and I was just disgusted beyond belief...

What pogue in the bowels of the Pentagon came up with that brilliant idea?

A former CAP member who missed are colorful patches.

[flyguy06]

Right now I'm doing some vendor support for a HUGE medical information system conference in the Midwest - I found your stimulus money, its right here, literally.

Anyway, there's a pretty big military presence here, certainly big enough to notice, especially when the lion's share of your gig is waiting for something which is pretty stable to break.

So far I've seen USAF, USN & USA officers and NCOs in various flavors, but something struck me - the USAF and USN are in service dress, but the Army guys are all in ACU's.

Also, I've seen plenty of single & double bars, oaks, and even a bird (first time I've seen an active USAF person wearing the cardigan sweater), but the Army guys are all Lt. Cols.

So...nothing to do with CAP, really, but I don't have anywhere else to ask something like this, and the only place I can get wifi is at the closed SB downstairs....

In the army, we wear ACU's. Nobody wears those green class B's anymore. I think the last time I wore that thing was 8 years ago at my graduation from OCS. In fact, they dont even issue them anymore at Basic training. We "may" wear them once a year at a Christmas party or something.

[citizensoldier]

There is now aparently even a "Ceremonial ACU" where full color patches are worn unless they killed that off.

I saw something about that and I was just disgusted beyond belief...

What pogue in the bowels of the Pentagon came up with that brilliant idea?

I know.  It might be cool for units in ACUs for a parade or something but that would be about it.

CS

[tarheel gumby]

When I was in the NG there was never a question as to when to wear which uniform. The BDU's were for field and training only not for any other occasions unless specified by a higher command. But I was in an MP unit, with what may be considered a spit & polish fixiation.

[Hawk200]

There is now aparently even a "Ceremonial ACU" where full color patches are worn unless they killed that off.

I saw something about that and I was just disgusted beyond belief...

What pogue in the bowels of the Pentagon came up with that brilliant idea?

I know.  It might be cool for units in ACUs for a parade or something but that would be about it.

CS

It was for formal events. I remember reading about it, but can't remember which message it was in. It did apply only to SSI.

[Smithsonia]

The Story: The Pentagon received so many reports of military personnel being praised while in their ABU/ACUs (civilians naturally assumed that in these uniforms the military personnel were going to or from combat) that they have made the decision to allow each command to decide upon proper travel wear. This discussion goes back to 2005/6.

Unstated - is the likely-hood that wear and tear on the Battle Dress is cheaper than the Class-Alpha and Battle Dress is more comfortable to travel in. So think of it as showing the flag, good for morale, good for finances, and so was an intelligent thing to do... imagine that.

[Flying Pig]

I remember as a young Marine Sgt. I was headed home for leave, wearing my Alphas.  My flight was late, which made me late for my connection.  I was running down the terminal in Denver ( I believe) and saw the jet had already been pushed back and was starting to taxi away.  Some guy in a suit asked me if that was my flight.  I stated "Yes Sir, it WAS."  He then pulled a walkie-talkie out from under his suit jacket and said, "Instruct Flight XXX to taxi back up to the jetway."  I was somewhat shocked.  I dont know who the guy was, but everyone called him "Sir". 
The little tug drove out because the jet had to be pushed back so the plane could make the turn back into the parking area.  They extended the jetway, and I got on.  I had some of the oddest stares like "Who the heck is this guy?" kind of looks.  And I got free drinks the entire way to CA.

I dont know who this is, just an example of what Alphas are.

[Stonewall]

Not to mention they were acting like kids. 

Yeah, because that's exclusive to the Army.  I've never seen anyone from another branch of service screwing around.  

Perhaps it was my upbringing in the Army in the early and mid-90s, but I still avoid wearing uniforms off base as much as possible.  In DC, in and around the Pentagon, you'll see uniforms of all sorts in restaurants, bars, malls, fast food, etc.  In my opinion, you can't expect someone who wears BDUs ACU/ABU/Cammies all day on base, who has to run off base to take care of something to switch into Class Bs.

I agree that if you are not serving in a combat unit, then you should be wearing your service uniform to work daily.  Same thing for AF types who are no longer on flight status wearing flight suits to work at the Pentagon or to an office.  "I've got 4,000 hours, you're not taking my flight suit away..."  Whatever  

The only "no go" in my opinion, and there is no excuse for this, is wearing the PT uniform anywhere but for PT.

For those of us in the Guard/Reserves, as far as I am concerned I have no use for service uniforms.  I was issued the same amount of blue uniforms as the active duty Air Force.  We have to come up with a reason to wear our blues, which is always December drill's blues inspection.  People jump through hoops to get their blues together for what?  The next time they wear them is 12 months away for the same reason.

I think ANG/RES personnel should only be issued ABU/ACU/Cammies until you make NCO or something.  I've got about $1,000 worth of uniforms taking up a lot of space in my closet at home.

BTW...Was at Exit 1 on I-95 in Georgia yesterday which is the exit for Kings Bay Sub Base about 5 minutes down the road.  At the gas station/mini-mart I saw a Marine (not a Navy HM) pumping gas in his Camies without his cover on.  He then walked 40 feet from his vehicle into the store...without his cover on.  I even commented to my wife to put her BDU hat on when she began to get out of the car and head in.  She rolled her eyes at me and I reminded her that she's an NCO (ask my wife, I say this to her all the time).   He may have been a reservist, but I doubt it.

[Flying Pig]

Not to mention they were acting like kids. 

Yeah, because that's exclusive to the Army.  I've never seen anyone from another branch of service screwing around.  

Perhaps it was my upbringing in the Army in the early and mid-90s, but I still avoid wearing uniforms off base as much as possible.  In DC, in and around the Pentagon, you'll see uniforms of all sorts in restaurants, bars, malls, fast food, etc.  In my opinion, you can't expect someone who wears BDUs ACU/ABU/Cammies all day on base, who has to run off base to take care of something to switch into Class Bs.

I agree that if you are not serving in a combat unit, then you should be wearing your service uniform to work daily.  Same thing for AF types who are no longer on flight status wearing flight suits to work at the Pentagon or to an office.  "I've got 4,000 hours, you're not taking my flight suit away..."  Whatever  

The only "no go" in my opinion, and there is no excuse for this, is wearing the PT uniform anywhere but for PT.

For those of us in the Guard/Reserves, as far as I am concerned I have no use for service uniforms.  I was issued the same amount of blue uniforms as the active duty Air Force.  We have to come up with a reason to wear our blues, which is always December drill's blues inspection.  People jump through hoops to get their blues together for what?  The next time they wear them is 12 months away for the same reason.

I think ANG/RES personnel should only be issued ABU/ACU/Cammies until you make NCO or something.  I've got about $1,000 worth of uniforms taking up a lot of space in my closet at home.

BTW...Was at Exit 1 on I-95 in Georgia yesterday which is the exit for Kings Bay Sub Base about 5 minutes down the road.  At the gas station/mini-mart I saw a Marine (not a Navy HM) pumping gas in his Camies without his cover on.  He then walked 40 feet from his vehicle into the store...without his cover on.  I even commented to my wife to put her BDU hat on when she began to get out of the car and head in.  She rolled her eyes at me and I reminded her that she's an NCO (ask my wife, I say this to her all the time).   He may have been a reservist, but I doubt it.

Im glad you agree with me.   Yeah, your right.  Every service has their 1% as they say.  This particular time, it was the Army's 1%.  Being Infantry, I have trained with Paratroopers and Rangers from Benning and Bragg, and everyone of those guys were top notch. Shoot, I practically lived in your old Barracks at Fort Myers on the weekends!  A buddy of mine was in Delta Co.
Later on, as an Infantry guy in the Army Reserves, (Yes, they used to have Infantry) I had the opportunity to work with some Soldiers that were former Green Berets, my Plt Sgt was former SF as well. I learned some things from them that the Marines had never even touched on.  My unit was right next door to the 19th Special Forces Group in Los Alamitos which was neat also.  These guys were as hard charging dudes.  When I was in the Marines, as a junior NCO, I was in charge of the Pork Chop Platoon after the day ended.  Meaning I had to PT with the PT Test failures to get them back up to speed.  These were basically guys who wanted out and decided getting fat was the best way. That was definitely .9% of the Marine Corps 1% right there.

Back to the subject......You dont see other branches traveling in BDU's, I just think its odd the Army does.

[Stonewall]

Back to the subject......You dont see other branches traveling in BDU's, I just think its odd the Army does.

Navy does every day.  Well, DCUs.  Local Navy Base sends their MA's out of Jacksonville in DCUs all the time.  In fact, last year when I flew up to Boston an MA1 sat next to me in DCUs. 

I personally haven't seen AF folks in BDUs in the airports, but Navy and Army, absolutely.  Heck, the AF flies its folks in civilian clothes on military aircraft.  I flew to PR with 40 other people from WV to PR on a C-130 for a "deployment" and we were in civies.  Same thing with my wife.  She flew to Wisconsin on a C-130 from GA in civies.

[Flying Pig]

^Thats IT!   Wives on C-130's, West Virginians in Puerto Rico, the world is crumbling under our feet.

[Stonewall]

 Wives on C-130's,

She is in the Air Guard...

[NIN]

I personally haven't seen AF folks in BDUs in the airports, but Navy and Army, absolutely.  Heck, the AF flies its folks in civilian clothes on military aircraft.  I flew to PR with 40 other people from WV to PR on a C-130 for a "deployment" and we were in civies.  Same thing with my wife.  She flew to Wisconsin on a C-130 from GA in civies.

I have seen AF guys in the airport in BDUs (and ABUs).  Hell I've seen a Marine or two in digis, but by far they fly in Alphas or Deltas.  (I only ever see Navy dudes in their crackerjack outfit or the all-black outfit)

For the Army Cadets, we're required to travel in uniform (long story, but it involves insurance coverage, at least, that's what I've been told,  and since we tend to be doing a lot of stuff in ACUs and usually need to "hit  the ground running" at the destination, it makes sense to travel in ACUs.  But that's another discussion)   Someone from CAP said to me "You need to stop that. I never see officers traveling in ACUs.."   Well, that's BS, I've seen field grade officers flying commercial in ACUs, nearly every time I fly.

Bottom line is: the definition of ACUs/BDUs/DCUs/digis/CUUs/ABUs as a "work-only" uniform is fast going away.  My commander WIWAC was an AF Security Forces MSgt who only wore fatigues when there was a high probability of "getting dirty" (not even "working").  And that was his philosophy: Fatigues are a "work" uniform.  For everything else, climb your happy butt into a set of short sleeve blues. And if you're an officer or a senior NCO, wear a tie.

That's soooo 1970s.

[RogueLeader]

Again, as a former Marine and former Soldier.....I think they need to save the cammies for the field.  I have a question for the current Army Soldiers.  Are you directed to wear the ACUs, for example, when traveling, or is it a choice?

When I got out of BCT and AIT, we were required to wear ACU's.  As far as going to schools and such, I'm not sure.  On leave and the such is person's perogative.

[RiverAux]

I don't think we should stand for the Army trying to pretend like they're CAP members by wearing full color patches.  Thats just outrageous! 

[Hawk200]

  Not to mention they were acting like kids. 

Yeah, because that's exclusive to the Army.  I've never seen anyone from another branch of service screwing around.  

About the only way I can address that is to snicker knowingly, and give a hearty "Preach on, brother!"

Perhaps it was my upbringing in the Army in the early and mid-90s, but I still avoid wearing uniforms off base as much as possible.  In DC, in and around the Pentagon, you'll see uniforms of all sorts in restaurants, bars, malls, fast food, etc.  In my opinion, you can't expect someone who wears BDUs ACU/ABU/Cammies all day on base, who has to run off base to take care of something to switch into Class Bs.

Even in the Air Force of the late '80's, early '90's, BDU's were only for essential stops. Getting gas, going through a drive through, maybe grabbing a newspaper. It still surprised me when I saw people off base sitting down at Burger King, Arby's, Outback while wearing BDU's.

I agree that if you are not serving in a combat unit, then you should be wearing your service uniform to work daily.

I would hope you thought about a few caveats to that. I was a telephone installer while Air Force and had to crawl through ceilings, under floors, up on trucks, some guys climbed poles (I never did), and more than a few times was in the utilidoor system (which was steamy, greasy, and no telling how many times people whizzed in there). I would hope that I wouldn't need to be in a combat unit to be able to wear BDU's.

Same thing for AF types who are no longer on flight status wearing flight suits to work at the Pentagon or to an office.  "I've got 4,000 hours, you're not taking my flight suit away..."  Whatever  

I would extend that to all branches. There are guys here wearing flight uniforms when they aren't flying, and many wearing them that never have. Got three in my locker, and haven't worn them once since I didn't get a flight slot.

The only "no go" in my opinion, and there is no excuse for this, is wearing the PT uniform anywhere but for PT.

Agreed, as long as "home station" is put out there. Over here, that's off duty clothing.

For those of us in the Guard/Reserves, as far as I am concerned I have no use for service uniforms.  I was issued the same amount of blue uniforms as the active duty Air Force.  We have to come up with a reason to wear our blues, which is always December drill's blues inspection.  People jump through hoops to get their blues together for what?  The next time they wear them is 12 months away for the same reason.

I got issued a batch when I joined the Air Guard. Had to wear them in weather school. Still had a few shirts that I didn't use for Air Force duty. I wear them now, just with CAP insignia. Did the same with a few BDU sets as well.

I think ANG/RES personnel should only be issued ABU/ACU/Cammies until you make NCO or something.  I've got about $1,000 worth of uniforms taking up a lot of space in my closet at home.

I could understand fewer uniforms for the Reserve components, but still think they should be issued.

BTW...Was at Exit 1 on I-95 in Georgia yesterday which is the exit for Kings Bay Sub Base about 5 minutes down the road.  At the gas station/mini-mart I saw a Marine (not a Navy HM) pumping gas in his Camies without his cover on.  He then walked 40 feet from his vehicle into the store...without his cover on.  

Been to the Subase there. Quite a few Reservists, both Marine and Navy. And they tend be a little more lax. Not an excuse, just a note on what I saw. The post is fairly nice.

[O-Rex]

As for the "Ceremonial ACU," the Army was probably trying to figure out what they are going to do with the bazillions of full-color patches still in the supply system that will become obsolete when they go to blues.  I call it the "Vanguard Factor."   

Speaking of blues, this thread actually explains, in a round about way, why the Army is doing away with Service Greens:  Over the years you average soldier is wearing them less & less.  When I was a soldier in the early 80's we wore them at the end of the month for 'payday activities,' social functions and wearing them for travel was an on & off thing, depending on the political climate around the world at the time.  By the end of the decade I was only wearing them for Official DA photos and sat on one court-martial.

I'm long out of the service, and work in an office in polos & khaki pants where 10 years ago it was dress shirts & ties, not to mention that the Tuxedo has become much more suit-like, and I can't remember the last time I saw a young lady in a dress outside of church: America has certainly become more casual.

But the military has always had a penchant for the anachronistic: its part of the mystique.

Now you see ACU's in airports, the pentagon, recruiters wear them etc. etc.  GWOT or not, Personally I don't think it's very professional: why do you need to be camoflaged in Podunk, USA?  We're at war: gee, no kidding.  When I was a kid, we were embroiled in a 12-year war, and I didn't see a whole lot of soldiers running around in jungle fatigues in my hometown.

Maybe I'm 'old school,' but a combat/work uniform outside of the theater of ops, or even a military base screams "I'm too lazy to make myself presentable to the public."  And it's the 21st Century, with wash & wear fabrics, gold-plated insignia (recently asked one young solder about brasso: he replied "huh??") and corfam shoes, so prep time is minimal compared to when some of us where soldiers.

It's a proven fact that a soldier actually carries himself/herself differently when in Class A's or B's....

Sooner or later they'll get an Army Chief of Staff who will put an end to all that, and prescribe the proper uniform for the proper event and place. 

[Grumpy]

". . . When I was a kid, we were embroiled in a 12-year war, and I didn't see a whole lot of soldiers running around in jungle fatigues in my hometown."

Could one reason be if you were in uniform you got spit on?

"And it's the 21st Century, with wash & wear fabrics, gold-plated insignia (recently asked one young soldier about brasso: he replied "huh??") and corfam shoes, so prep time is minimal compared to when some of us where soldiers."

I still don't wear corfam.  They hurt my feet and I can spit shine my leather shoes just shiny as corfam anyway.

[MIGCAP]

A long long time ago...In a galaxy far far away.
Returning from an all expenses paid vacation to a tropical paradise, I flew from that paradise to Hawaii in a C-141, then (after an RON), onto Travis AFB.  We were required to fly in uniform on a C-141. On arival at Travis we were ushered to a room in the terminal where we were instructed to change into civilian clothes, so we did not cause any problems on leaving the base.  Seems there were some patriotcally challenged folks ready outside the gate with buckets of blood, rocks, spit, sticks, and "Murderer!!" signs to welcome us home.
To this day when I see someone in a uniform (any US uniform), especially in an airport with a duffel bag, I go out of my way to stop them and say "Thank You", and Welcome Home, or Godspeed,  Nobody should have been welcomed home like we were. Even a uniform worn wrong or inappropriately is still the uniform of our nation and the wearer has signed the blank check for any amount up to and including their life.

[Grumpy]

A long long time ago...In a galaxy far far away.
Returning from an all expenses paid vacation to a tropical paradise, I flew from that paradise to Hawaii in a C-141, then (after an RON), onto Travis AFB.  We were required to fly in uniform on a C-141. On arrival at Travis we were ushered to a room in the terminal where we were instructed to change into civilian clothes, so we did not cause any problems on leaving the base.  Seems there were some patriotically challenged folks ready outside the gate with buckets of blood, rocks, spit, sticks, and "Murderer!!" signs to welcome us home.
To this day when I see someone in a uniform (any US uniform), especially in an airport with a duffel bag, I go out of my way to stop them and say "Thank You", and Welcome Home, or Godspeed,  Nobody should have been welcomed home like we were. Even a uniform worn wrong or inappropriately is still the uniform of our nation and the wearer has signed the blank check for any amount up to and including their life.

My point exactly.  Fortunately we don't see as much of that anymore.  I live in San Diego County and the support for the military is great.

[hatentx]

While I see your points and kind of agree with them to a point the fact of the matter is we are a nation at war and when you are not at war you want to time to do what you want.  We dont do Pay Day function or anything of that sort.  Could that possible incress moral and such???  eh maybe but no more going to the NCO club and having a beer after work that is taboo. 

With a deploment cylce that almost matches 1 month for 1 month deployed to being in the states your time is filled tremedously.  I am fixing to head over again and I have been home 15 months.  I was deployed last time just under 16 months.  In my time back I have been to the field 4 times for atleast 2 to 3 weeks at a time.  Have had to do either a NTC or JRTC rotation which is a month long.  Attend schools, for me was Warrior Leaders course being 2 weeks long, Unit Movement Officers course 2 weeks long (while it isnt a residant course if you have taken the course it is a rough one to start off with.) and that duty has had be working for about 2 1/2 months from 0630 to 1800 or later 5 to 6 days a week pending on inspections.  And for me my time wasnt as filled as other by any means.  My poor Platoon Leader has been gone almost 10 months total.  So in my 15 months back I am "occupied" by the Army 5 or so of those months.  So that leaves me less than a year to be with my family and such, So there is really no possible time that soldiers are going to want or be willing to do these functions where they get dressed up in a uniform that most likly doesnt fit because of all the weight  you gain and lose from all these events plus updating it.  Then the added having to keep these uniforms ready as well!!  Jees I can think of better things to do with my time and money.  Yes I dont have to use brasso and spit shine my shoes.  I understand that they are much simplier but still why bother.  The Army is no longer a place where everyone gets together and hangs out and does everything as a unit.  It is sadly a different beast all together. 

I have worn a dress uniform only a hangful of times.  When traveling for AIT, while on recruiter assistance duty, 3 military balls I chose to go to, Soldier of the Month board, Promotion Board and 2 Class A inspection.  that is 5+ years in. 

The idea of the Military dropping the ball on the professional Image blows my mind!!!  The ACUs are a mulitpurpose uniform.  You can do everything in them.  You can go kill people in Iraq to stand in a parade.  While I will agree that you can tell a huge difference from the Soldiers that had the open ranks every morning in BDUs for a pressed uniform and Shined boot still carry them self better than those who hae never had to do it.  But the fact is you can still show up having a military bearing in the ACUs.  Conduct yourself properly.  When me or any of my fellow NCO show up to work we are the standard.  We may look like trash when we are at the end of work but we show up the next morning looking like we should.  We have most of our lower enlisted the same way.  You have some issues with those that dont care and want out or just a lack of disipline yes I will assure you of that and it is evry where.  However a uniform isnt going to change how a solider is truly going to act.  Given time in a Class B uniform traveling if a soldier is going to act like an a$$ clown then he is going to.  That is not an Issue with the uniform it is an issue with the water down basic training and the thought the NCOs are my friends rather than the idea that we are thier leaders and the guys who are training you to make it back alive from war.

Haha well i think I ranted enough.  I guess that is a little more than my $.02 so save the change I am sure I will short change you all another time.

P.S.  I will say I like the Airforce Idea where you wear your blues on Mondays, I think it is awesome and I wish the Army could be in a place where we do that.  But when the majority of the Army works out of a motor Stables, flight line, kitchen or Hospital that idea just wouldnt do any good.  why more 1/10 of the army be different.

[O-Rex]

VN-era "spitting on soldiers:" 

that was a dark chapter in American History; those who did such things vowed to do it 'better' than those who did before.  Well, they are of retirement age now, had their moment (& opportunity) in the sun, and lo and behold, we're not exactly living in the utopia that many of them had envisioned.

It's like saying "I'm not going to be like my parents" as a rebellious teen, and years later, you find yourself saying and doing much of the same things they did. 

Incidentally, nowadays anyone spitting or throwing something at a servicememeber (or anyone else for that matter) is likely to get arrested for assault & battery.

Back to uniforms-While it's nice that the Army really likes their ACU's, there is still the old tenet of the appropriate uniform for the particular situation or function.

[Climbnsink]

Are we all settled with CAP uniforms so now we can tell the RM how to wear theirs? 

[Hawk200]

Back to uniforms-While it's nice that the Army really likes their ACU's, there is still the old tenet of the appropriate uniform for the particular situation or function.

It's not a matter of it being "nice", it's a matter of doing what is directed by chain of command. Something that a lot of people seem to have a problem with. If there isn't a legal, moral, or ethical problem with a directive, order, or suggestion; then there is no reason not to do what is passed down. The Army justifies it's policy with "we're a nation at war". There is not, as of yet, any problem with doing as we're told. There are places that it is not appropriate to wear the ACU, that's been spelled out. So we "suck it up, and drive on",

"Ours is not to reason why...."

[hatentx]

Well we're not a Nation at war we are having Overseas contigisies (sp) hahaha  Waiting for me Campiagn medal lol

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Consider the source of the order -- the same people who told their entire force to wear black berets, pissing off the elite forces who earned the right to wear such a goofy French thing that they could make it manly.

Flaming begins in 5.... 4.... 3.... 2....

[O-Rex]

Are we all settled with CAP uniforms so now we can tell the RM how to wear theirs? 

I was actually more of a uniform nazi when I was RM than I am now-it's the mellowing with age thing.... 

[cap235629]

can go one better, as a young MP at the JRTC when it was at Fort Chaffee, AR.  I was actually "instructed" by a tdy squad leader to issue commander's action DA Form 1408 traffic tickets for, get this, UNIFORM VIOLATIONS!

That lasted all of about 1 week when a certain Colonel told the PM to "send me that chicken "excrement"  Sergeant"

needless to say we didn't write any more.

But some folks do take uniforms to the extreme.

I have seen all kinds of violations and even watched one young PV2 politely and respectfully remind a full bird that he had his headgear on in the PX.  When the Colonel pointed out that the MP was also wearing his headgear, the MP politely asked the Colonel if he was armed, as he was.  After I chuckled a bit I politely and professionally took the PV2 aside and bid the Colonel a good day......

[NIN]

At Fort Bragg 2 years back (eek, 3 years nearly, now), I prowled the post rather cautiously lest I accidentally run afoul of some of the more arcane Ft Bragg post policies (ie. no cell phone use while walking, no drinking while walking, etc).   

I half expected some sharp-eyed Sergeant Major to descend on me in the PX or something for my jump wings (USAC jump wings are not the same as the standard-issue US jump wings, and thus look like a "foreign award" being worn on the wrong side... ). That would have been a fun conversation. Not!

[Eclipse]

Shows over - a couple pics semi-related to the OP.





Based on the conversations, the vendors there, and some of the keynotes, Health Information Management (EMR/EMH) is going to be HUGE in the next 5 years.  The stimulus package will start pushing dollars towards digitizing records in 2011, and the Guv'mint will start penalizing non-digital companies in 2015.

How big are these companies?  The booth I supported had 24 42" plasma displays, 16 interactive tablets, and other video displays for a total of over 80 systems running at once - this was one booth.  Makes me happy to be an IT guy - a bad economy is only bad if you're on the wrong side of the fence!

[EMT-83]

Eclipse, you're right on the money with EMR. My company is well into a three-year project on converting our 75 offices. The infrastructure needed to make that happen is unbelievable.

Yep, this is a great time to be in medical IT support!

[PaulR]

In the army, we wear ACU's. Nobody wears those green class B's anymore. I think the last time I wore that thing was 8 years ago at my graduation from OCS. In fact, they dont even issue them anymore at Basic training. We "may" wear them once a year at a Christmas party or something.

That is a real shame!  That was a great uniform

[Hawk200]

There is now aparently even a "Ceremonial ACU" where full color patches are worn unless they killed that off.

I saw something about that and I was just disgusted beyond belief...

What pogue in the bowels of the Pentagon came up with that brilliant idea?

I know.  It might be cool for units in ACUs for a parade or something but that would be about it.

CS

It was for formal events. I remember reading about it, but can't remember which message it was in. It did apply only to SSI.

An update. Found the info in a completely different place than I expected it: Army Service uniform message. Paragraph 1A, last couple of lines.

The exact wording is: "LOCAL COMMANDERS CAN AUTHORIZE THE WEAR OF THE NON‐SUBDUED SSI AND SSIFWTS ON THE ACU FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS SUCH AS CHANGE OF COMMAND, REENLISTMENTS, COLOR GUARDS AND OTHER SPECIAL OCCASIONS."

Kind of an oddball place to put it. I guess it's the same kind of thing that the Air Force did, allowing full color patches on the BDU for awhile so they could still make use of the patch stock.

[RogueLeader]

,snip> In fact, they dont even issue them anymore at Basic training. We "may" wear them once a year at a Christmas party or something.

I was issued my sets of class B's in basic, last summer.  YMMV

[BuckeyeDEJ]

An update. Found the info in a completely different place than I expected it: Army Service uniform message. Paragraph 1A, last couple of lines.

The exact wording is: "LOCAL COMMANDERS CAN AUTHORIZE THE WEAR OF THE NON‐SUBDUED SSI AND SSIFWTS ON THE ACU FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS SUCH AS CHANGE OF COMMAND, REENLISTMENTS, COLOR GUARDS AND OTHER SPECIAL OCCASIONS."

Kind of an oddball place to put it. I guess it's the same kind of thing that the Air Force did, allowing full color patches on the BDU for awhile so they could still make use of the patch stock.

Makes some sense to put it there, since the only use of full-color patches in the Army was on the service uniform. Had to find SOME place to put 'em....

[NIN]

One of my seniors showed up last night from her current full time gig as an Air Guard cop at the nearby Air Guard base.  In her ABUs.  Which were starched & pressed.

So begins the process of taking all the utility out of a utility uniform.

[notaNCO forever]

One of my seniors showed up last night from her current full time gig as an Air Guard cop at the nearby Air Guard base.  In her ABUs.  Which were starched & pressed.

So begins the process of taking all the utility out of a utility uniform.

It's still a utility uniform, it just looks good.

[Cecil DP]

One of my seniors showed up last night from her current full time gig as an Air Guard cop at the nearby Air Guard base.  In her ABUs.  Which were starched & pressed.

So begins the process of taking all the utility out of a utility uniform.

It's still a utility uniform, it just looks good.

When the Armed Forces began BDU's and all the other configurations of utility uniforms they were allegedly "thermal resistant" and were all designated non-starch to maintain the ability not to give out a heat signature. Yet within 5 years all the uniforms suddenly become starchable. Which if you're in a unit which wears these units on a daily basis adds about $200 a year to the soldiers maintenance costs. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

A long long time ago...In a galaxy far far away.
Returning from an all expenses paid vacation to a tropical paradise, I flew from that paradise to Hawaii in a C-141, then (after an RON), onto Travis AFB.  We were required to fly in uniform on a C-141. On arival at Travis we were ushered to a room in the terminal where we were instructed to change into civilian clothes, so we did not cause any problems on leaving the base.  Seems there were some patriotcally challenged folks ready outside the gate with buckets of blood, rocks, spit, sticks, and "Murderer!!" signs to welcome us home.
To this day when I see someone in a uniform (any US uniform), especially in an airport with a duffel bag, I go out of my way to stop them and say "Thank You", and Welcome Home, or Godspeed,  Nobody should have been welcomed home like we were. Even a uniform worn wrong or inappropriately is still the uniform of our nation and the wearer has signed the blank check for any amount up to and including their life.

Travis, being within a dollar's worth of gas from San Francisco, was pretty famous for shoddy treatment of returning warriors.

In April, 1970 I returned from Beautiful, Sunny, South Vietnam, and was loaded on a Navy-gray school bus for further transport to Treasure Island.  A 1st class petty officer warned us to close the windows, since there were "Protesters" at the gate.  We were ordered to refrain from flipping them off, mooning them, or reacting in any way to their taunts.

I looked out the window at the dregs of humanity, absolutely disgusted at what I saw, and one of the miscreants decided to hocker on my bus window.

Now, of course, the Political Correct crowd claims that never happened.  It did, I saw it, and I have never (for 39 years this month) forgotten it.

Travis is closed, a dollar in gas won't get you that far anymore, but San Francisco hasn't changed any.

I'm sure Mr. Hockerman is a Democratic congressman from California by now, or an aide to Nancy Pelosi.

[PHall]

Travis is closed They must have done it last night because it was open yesterday.

[RogueLeader]

still shows up on google. . . . . wHich may or may not be right. YMMV

[JohnKachenmeister]

I must be mistaken.  I thought they closed Travis and Norton the same year.  Travis must have dodged the bullet.

[PHall]

I must be mistaken.  I thought they closed Travis and Norton the same year.  Travis must have dodged the bullet.

Travis has never been on "the list". Travis is the West Coast hub for all military air cargo.

They closed Norton and George AFB's in 1993.

Other California Air Force Bases that have been closed in the past 20 years are:
Mather, McClellan, Castle, Onizuka, Hamilton and March was re-designated as a Air Reserve Base.


And people wonder why we have trouble finding places to do Encampment at. They've closed all of the places we did Encampment at!

[MIKE]

Topic... or lock.

[sarmed1]

back to the topic....from an Air Force perspctive (specifically medical) even as reservist we have been instructed that when attending a conference on the USAF dollar we are to wear either long sleeve with tie or service dress.

Flying in uniform for the AF was allowed as aan option after the overwhelming number of Army types out there in the civilian system flying in ACU....try to make sure we are seen as part of the military, not that this an Army only fight sort of reasoning....

mk