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WIWAC

Started by ol'fido, November 17, 2011, 12:41:12 AM

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Stonewall

Quote from: ol'fido on July 08, 2012, 11:01:39 PM
Stonewall,

You me and NIN are going to have to get together sometime and kill a few brain cells and tell a lot more war stories.

Ol'fido

Wouldn't be the first time.  NIN and I, among others, have met up a few times.  From Hawk Mountain in 2002, my wedding in 2003, and a special event for like-minded CAPers in DC in the 2008 time frame. 

Perhaps it is time for an 80s flashback party, CAP style!
Serving since 1987.

Garibaldi

Quote from: Stonewall on July 09, 2012, 12:50:04 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on July 08, 2012, 11:01:39 PM
Stonewall,

You me and NIN are going to have to get together sometime and kill a few brain cells and tell a lot more war stories.

Ol'fido

Wouldn't be the first time.  NIN and I, among others, have met up a few times.  From Hawk Mountain in 2002, my wedding in 2003, and a special event for like-minded CAPers in DC in the 2008 time frame. 

Perhaps it is time for an 80s flashback party, CAP style!

We have a CAPVets meeting for former GAWG cadets and seniors from the 60s-80s every year at Christmastime. It's fun to see what happened to everyone over the years and trade some "what ever happened to..." and "remember the time..." stories. The guy in charge of organizing it also put together a myfamily.com site dedicated to a former commander and it has all sorts of stories and pics from the "great era".
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

ol'fido

Quote from: SarDragon on July 08, 2012, 11:08:09 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on July 08, 2012, 10:58:46 PM
Quote from: NIN on July 08, 2012, 08:43:19 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on July 08, 2012, 08:00:43 PM
Anybody know where I can get a "'Be a Man Among Men' Rhodesian Army" t shirt. :'(

(I don't mean to come off as rude, man, but that took like 12 seconds on Google..<GRIN>)

http://www.zazzle.com/be_a_man_among_men_t_shirts-235627713807272630
https://www.sofmag.com/store/rhodesian-army-t-shirt-black

I had to discontinue my subscription to SOF when I went on Active Duty.  I didn't think it would reflect well on a clearance interview. :)
It was more of a rhetorical question, my steely eyed auxiliaryman friend. ;)

One should generally avoid rhetorical Qs on here. They tend to provoke all sorts of smart-ass responses.  ;)
Dave, with some of these guys, you get a smart ass response with any type of question. The snark knows no bounds.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

ol'fido

Quote from: Stonewall on July 09, 2012, 12:50:04 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on July 08, 2012, 11:01:39 PM
Stonewall,

You me and NIN are going to have to get together sometime and kill a few brain cells and tell a lot more war stories.

Ol'fido

Wouldn't be the first time.  NIN and I, among others, have met up a few times.  From Hawk Mountain in 2002, my wedding in 2003, and a special event for like-minded CAPers in DC in the 2008 time frame. 

Perhaps it is time for an 80s flashback party, CAP style!
Have to see if we can work something out.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

SarDragon

Quote from: ol'fido on July 09, 2012, 11:13:22 PMDave, with some of these guys, you get a smart ass response with any type of question. The snark knows no bounds.

Guilty as charged. However, I do try to use some semblance of discretion in my own smartassery.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

BillB

What made the 80's (and before) so great for CAP? And what changed that? Perhaps a look back to see what worked and what currently isn't might bring some light onto the picture. Of course you hear the "corporate culture" has brought about the changes, but has it? What is different in 2012 from the 1980's? Does this explain the dropping membership totals? Perhaps a conference call with Ned and General Carr along a dozen of the old graybeards of CAP could look into the differences and the change in CAP. (other Corporate Officers not allowed  LOL)
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Eclipse

Quote from: BillB on July 10, 2012, 12:45:43 AMWhat is different in 2012 from the 1980's?

Reagn's gone, Clinton gave us BRAC.

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on July 10, 2012, 12:53:28 AM
Quote from: BillB on July 10, 2012, 12:45:43 AMWhat is different in 2012 from the 1980's?

Reagn's gone, Clinton gave us BRAC.

Actually, the BRAC process started while Reagan was still around.

Quote from: WikipediaThe BRAC process was designed from 1988-89 to close excess military installations despite the political challenges which arise when facilities face activity reductions.

Quote from: globalsecurity.orgIn 1988 the Secretary of Defense recognized the requirement to close excess bases to save money and therefore chartered the Commission on Base Realignment and Closure in 1988 to recommend military bases within the United States for realignment and closure.

Congress has enacted two laws since 1988 that provide for the closure, in part or in whole, and the realignment of facilities. Since 1988, there have been four successive bipartisan Defense Base Closure and Realignment Commissions (BRAC) that recommended the closure of 125 major military facilities and 225 minor military bases and installations, and the realignment in operations and functions of 145 others. By another accounting, the four BRAC rounds achieved 97 base closings and 55 major realignments. This resulted in net savings to taxpayers of over $16 billion through 2001, and over $6 billion in additional savings annually.

The principal mechanism for implementing the policy in both statues has been an independent, bipartisan commission. Two of the most pressing issues are providing assistance to local communities economically impacted by base closures and establishing a cost-effective program of environmental clean-up at bases prior to their disposition.

During the decade of the 1980's, no major military bases were closed, largely because of procedural requirements established by Congress. After several legislative efforts to break the deadlock failed, Congress introduced a new base closure procedure in P.L. 100-526, enacted October 24, 1988. The original base-closing law was designed to minimize political interference. The statute established a bipartisan commission to make recommendations to Congress and the Secretary of Defense on closures and realignments. Lawmakers had to accept or reject the commission's report in its entirety. On December 28, 1988, the commission issued its report, recommending closure of 86 installations, partial closure of 5, and realignment of 54 others. The Secretary of Defense approved its recommendation on January 5, 1989.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

BillB

Since you bring it up, BRAC is probably one of the underlying reasons for the change in CAP. Where has all the Encampment sites gone? In Florida along, Cecil Field Naval Air Station, Orlando Naval Training Center, McCoy AFB, Homestead AFB (thanks to hurricane Andrew) and several smaller Air Force sites have closed. Orlando Naval Training Center could support 300 cadet encampments at low rates for the cadets. All the rest of the Air Force instillations such as Tyndall AFB are maxed out on barracks and other facilities and unavailable. So the encampments you enjoyed in the 80's and before no longer exist. Even the old Type B encampments are frowned on in several Wings.  So ther than encampments, what else has changed since the 80's in CAP?
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Eclipse

Those BRACs took the people, the vehicles, and the local understanding of the military as well.

People don't join anymore - they like to wave the flag and then write a check or send a proxy - that means less membership across the board.
Elementary and high schools run their athletic programs as if they were professional sports, even local park programs do it - so that allows for
less available time and more activity conflicts.

The internet hasn't helped, either.  From entertainment to employment, people think the world is a correspondence course, further feeding
the "non-joiner / couch groove mentality".

"That Others May Zoom"

Garibaldi

Quote from: BillB on July 10, 2012, 12:45:43 AM
What made the 80's (and before) so great for CAP? And what changed that? Perhaps a look back to see what worked and what currently isn't might bring some light onto the picture. Of course you hear the "corporate culture" has brought about the changes, but has it? What is different in 2012 from the 1980's? Does this explain the dropping membership totals? Perhaps a conference call with Ned and General Carr along a dozen of the old graybeards of CAP could look into the differences and the change in CAP. (other Corporate Officers not allowed  LOL)

It's a matter of perspective. Cadets who grew up in this era, or even the 90s and early '00s, will look back 20-30 years later and say that these were the "good old days". I look back on my cadet days (1981-1986) with great nostalgia. And heartache. And regret. But for the most part, it was the best of times because CAP took me through my teen years and gave me something positive to work with. Great skills like rappelling and rock climbing, and the joy of riding in military surplus trucks. Great activities like the Air Force Familiarization Course (which didn't last) and Solo Encampment and visits to Fort Rucker and cadet competitions. It was the worst of times because things like CPPT weren't around or even thought of; seniors were just trusted to do the right thing. Unfortunately for me, because...well, I'm not going to go there. Suffice to say I survived and hold no animosity.

I guess because of the era, the military buildup and the desire to make things right regarding Viet Nam vets, CAP was a place for kids who were looking for a place to act out their fantasies on FTXs while doing something positive on Thursday nights. We went from a flight of 10 kids in 1981 to 2 flights of 35 when I left in 1986. We looked at is as good training for when we did go fight the Russians when we graduated and went in the Army or Marines. The Air Force provided more support back then, both monetarily and logistically. We were able to do more without spending more out of our own pockets.

Perhaps it's the nature of the beast that CAP has evolved into what it is today. 2012 is going to look good to seniors reminiscing about their cadet days 30 years from now, like I said. We tend to forget the bad and remember the good. Cadets didn't get, or even care about, the big picture then, nor do they now. All they can see is their unit, and occasionally their Wing. I am sad to see a lot of things fallen by the wayside, things that shaped us into what we are now. I understand the reasons, but I still hate it.

*shrug*
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Майор Хаткевич

Having my active cadet years from 2003 to 2007/2008, I can honestly say that even a short five or so years later I think CAP rocked. I didn't do anything like Drummond or any of the old "crazy" non-reg events, but I definitely had my own fun. Lots of it.

Stonewall

#93
What's different today from the 80s?  Same things that were different between the 70s and 90s I suppose.

WIWAC starting in 1987, I joined because I had a love for the military as a whole, not specifically one area of the military, and definitely not because of a love for aviation.  I longed for discipline and structure in my life after seeing my dad as a Navy officer in my younger years.  However, he retired a couple years before I joined CAP so as I grew older, he distanced himself from the military so I didn't have that ongoing interaction that I wanted.  I joined Boy Scouts for a short while, but that didn't last.  I looked at Sea Cadets, but right around the time I was filling out paperwork for that, one of my best friends mentioned CAP.  I was sold!

I'll never forget my first meeting, an orientation night with my parents and Major George Otto, a Vietnam Marine CH-46 pilot and former Mitchell Cadet himself.  He spoke of the 8 week basic cadet training, FTXs, SAR/ES, and encampments and I knew CAP was for me.  But the next week started BCT.  I showed up in the required "uniform" for newbies, blue jeans, collared shirt tucked in, with a belt.  We wore this until we received our uniforms 6 weeks later.  I walked into the class room and there was this C/TSgt named Darrel Rhodes.  Although just a year or 2 older, he looked like a giant.  He and a female C/Sgt named Heather Harlan were our BCT staffers that would mold us into cadet airmen.  I was so intimidated that I felt sick to my stomach.

After BCT I fell in love with wearing my uniform and attending weekend activities like first aid weekends and other ES training, orientation flights, tours of military and aviation facilities, and everything CAP had to offer.  My first encampment was at Tyndall AFB August of 1987.  Toughest thing I had done in my life up to that point.  So structured and disciplined with morning uniform inspections that lasted a lifetime and one hour fire watch in the barracks that was required by the USAF.  I felt like the cadet staff were bigger than life.  They were cadets like me, maybe a couple of years older, but they commanded respect and stood 10 feet tall.

The rest of my cadet days were spent in the woods doing survival training, attending every FTX that was offered, going on real missions where we looked for actual downed aircraft, and being mentored by Vietnam veterans who didn't take crap from anyone.  They were quiet and unassuming, but were just the best we could have asked for. 

Outside of CAP we all hung together doing crazy things.  Once I turned 16 and got a license it was "game on".  We drove up to Ft. Stewart and Hunter AAF to visit the Ranger Battalion, we drove hours for air shows and wore our uniforms even though we weren't "working".  We got ourselves into P3, F18, and SH60 simulators at the 3 different Navy bases in Jacksonville at the time.  We wore flight suits, conducted "night ops", and organized unofficial CAP training like Recondo School and water survival training.  We even built our own 30' rappel tower where I got hurt bad enough to call an ambulance.  It was awesome!  Even though a lot of what we did wasn't officially a CAP activity, you wouldn't know it since we were all in CAP.  At any given time, from 4 to 10 "off duty" cadets would gather for some fun doing what made us happy.

Next to the Golden Knights flight at the Lake City air show, I'd say another one of our biggies was not once, but twice, where a handful of us talked our way into training with the Florida ARNG 20th Special Force Group out of Ocala.  In 1989, on two separate occasions, 2, then 6 of us, tagged along overnight for training during their drill weekends.  We carried M-16s, learned about IVs, patrolled through the Ocala National Forest, and froze our butts off.  Yes, I have pictures of all of this.  They knew we were CAP cadets and as far as our parents knew, we were on a CAP activity, but there were no checks and balances then, so as far as everyone was concerned we were legit.  Scary stuff now that I think of it.

When I became a young senior member in 1992 as part of DCWG (92 – 06), I tried to maintain that cadet mentality even though I was an "adult" and in the Army.  I quickly grew and learned, but still, I'd say some of the best times as a senior member were around 92 to 95, and maybe 99 to 04.  After I became a squadron commander in 2003 I butted heads with the wing commander too much so when it became work and not fun, I stepped down in 05.  I've been mostly inactive since then, but I'm hoping for a break in life to where I can enjoy the occasional CAP activity.

But WIWAC...that was when CAP was the best!
Serving since 1987.

Eclipse

Awesome post above....^

Another issue is the shrinkage of the CAP program itself.  I'm told that in the heyday there was a CAP unit in every park in my major metro area.
I remember seeing the ads in Boy's Life, but never encountered a unit in person.
Our Charter history shows something like 2-3 times as many units wing-wide.  Having a unit in your neighborhood, or on / near the base where you live
allows for a lot more ad-hoc interaction and unofficial mopery and milling about then when your only access is a 45+minute ride in mom's car, not to mention how difficult it is to get on a base at all these days.

I can remember driving >next< to my AFRES buddy on a motorcycle and just wandering into both Fort Sheridan and O'Hare.  He flashed his ID, I had nothing but a smile.  Awesome and then some, but not going to happen today.

"That Others May Zoom"

Stonewall

#95
Quote from: Stonewall on July 10, 2012, 03:13:41 PM
Next to the Golden Knights flight at the Lake City air show, I'd say another one of our biggies was not once, but twice, where a handful of us talked our way into training with the Florida ARNG 20th Special Force Group out of Ocala.  In 1989, on two separate occasions, 2, then 6 of us, tagged along overnight for training during their drill weekends.  We carried M-16s, learned about IVs, patrolled through the Ocala National Forest, and froze our butts off.  Yes, I have pictures of all of this. 

Here, pics...

Me wearing unauthorized Jungle Fatigues while with 20th SFG(A) from the FLARNG in Ocala National Forest, circa 1989.


My buddy Jody (NIN met him) was also out with SF that weekend.  We are still best buds 24 years after joining CAP together.


This pic was actually taken on 20 DEC 89 where we got all motivated when we invaded Panama so we spent the weekend in the woods. Mike is to the right, He's a MSgt on AC-130s and I live behind his parents now. (Notice fins on top of my ruck.)
Serving since 1987.

754837

When I was a cadet...

Chevrons were white stripes embroidered onto a blue patch that was sewn onto the sleeve of the uniform.

We had a corporate owned Cessna L-19 Birddog as our squadron plane that had seen service in Vietnam.  It was the coolest thing ever!

If we did something stupid, we paid for it by doing pushups or in walking laps around the exterior perimeter of our squadron HQ and the idea of hazing was never on anyone's mind.

I never did this but I know of older cadets wearing uniforms into liquor stores so that they appeared to of age to drink.  This was when the drinking age for "men" was 19 and "women" was 18.

I remember getting excused from school to go on "REDCAP" search and rescue missions as a ground team member.

We viewed ourselves as cadets 24 hours a day not just on Thursday evenings.



Stonewall

Quote from: 754837 on July 10, 2012, 07:24:06 PM
We viewed ourselves as cadets 24 hours a day not just on Thursday evenings.

^This!
Serving since 1987.

rustyjeeper

#98
Quote from: 754837 on July 10, 2012, 07:24:06 PM
When I was a cadet...

Chevrons were white stripes embroidered onto a blue patch that was sewn onto the sleeve of the uniform.

We had a corporate owned Cessna L-19 Birddog as our squadron plane that had seen service in Vietnam.  It was the coolest thing ever!

If we did something stupid, we paid for it by doing pushups or in walking laps around the exterior perimeter of our squadron HQ and the idea of hazing was never on anyone's mind.

I never did this but I know of older cadets wearing uniforms into liquor stores so that they appeared to of age to drink.  This was when the drinking age for "men" was 19 and "women" was 18.

I remember getting excused from school to go on "REDCAP" search and rescue missions as a ground team member.

We viewed ourselves as cadets 24 hours a day not just on Thursday evenings.


+1 to all of the above; and yes I did wear my uniform to purchase booze way back WIWAC at the age of 15.
Kids will be kids and there was no such thing as "core values" back in the day. There was right and wrong and I knew what I did was wrong, but I had to see if I could pull it off and I did >:D
The bottle of Jack I bought was consumed with two other friends who also were cadets in my unit. Just once I did that, we all suffered a severe hangover as a result....So much has changed since those days- this thread brings back a lot of memories to me about the good old days!
The one thing I am glad to see is CPPT added. Unfortunately a lot of what worked well for motivation and correctionis no longer allowed since the "H"
word has become so popular. Pushups build character as does guarding a telephone pole while reciting the general orders.

ol'fido

#99
I am sure a lot of it also has to do with the amount of self-reliance that kids of different generations are taught. I have in my personal library a book written by a man who during the '30s lived in one of the little coal mining towns that have disappeared today about 5 miles from my house. The only remnant of it is the name on a little old country church.

In the book, he describes how he and a few friends would go into the woods and camp. Not on the weekends, but from the time school let out in very early spring until it started again in late fall. And then they would go out hunting and camping as often as their parents and the weather would let them. They would make an appearance at home one or two times a week to let the folks know they were still alive.

I went camping on my own with my CAP buddies many a time. We would leave on Friday and call home for a ride on Sunday afternoon. This was in the days before cell phones and text messages. My Mom had enough trust in me to know I wouldn't do anything TOO stupid. She also knew who I was going out there with. During hunting season, you could also be sure that half the trucks and cars in the student parking lot at the high school had a shotgun or squirrel rifle in them because guys were going hunting before or after school, or both. Today, kids are suspended and expelled for drawing guns in art class or having butter knives in locked in their cars.

Today, our kids are not taught to be self reliant. They are taught that if they have a problem at school, work, or anywhere to go find someone "in authority" and let them deal with it.  They don't learn the simple hands on skills that we learned as young cadets. We weren't taught to have a Senior member hold our hands every time we left the building. We learned to do things on our own and to a standard that wasn't in any manual or task guide, but in the eyes of our peers who were very exacting.

I used to run the flight line at missions as a c/1stLT. I don't mean that I was the head cadet. I mean that it "my" flight line. The senior FLO was whoever was not flying at the time and they stayed in the pilot's lounge drinking coffee and eating donuts. This was not alien to our seniors. They knew what we could do and trusted us to do it without them standing there with the bubble wrap and safety nets.

It may not be that the PROGRAM had changed so much that SOCIETY has changed and not for the better either. We may have cell phones, computers, the internet, more tacti-cool gear than I could have imagined in my wildest, SOF inspired dreams, but WIWAC we had a healthy amount of SELF-RELIANCE AND COMMON SENSE.


Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006