Convicted felons

[FARRIER]

I am an antique, and I was in the Marine Corps back when lots of rural judges considered "Or you can join the Marine Corps" a viable sentencing alternative.  Most of them got jerked straight in basic and turned out to be good marines--all they needed was a little structure.  The truly bad mostly didn't make it out of boot camp.

If it wasn't for this type of thinking, my nephews psychiatrist wouldn't have been there to help him. The doctor was a kid who was given a second chance through the Marines. It turned him around to go work with kids.

[Flying Pig]

Unfortunately, although people have been turned around in the past, with todays criminals, drug use often comes hand in hand with their criminal activity.  And often the crimes are committed to support the drugs.  Thats not my opinion, thats from 10 years working as a cop and working dope.

[lordmonar]

Not to mention that 30 years ago, NCO's had a lot more freer hand in turning around those problem children.

Not saying today is better or worse...it's just different.

[AlphaSigOU]

Not to mention that 30 years ago, NCO's had a lot more freer hand in turning around those problem children.

Not saying today is better or worse...it's just different.

Cap'n Harris can probably relate with me the old adage that 'the Ooooold Air Force was the best Air Force', compared to today. Just like he said... it's just different. Keep a copy of the fictional AFI 22-102, Wall-to-Wall Counseling of Air Force Personnel (or whatever the correct series is; I've seen variations such as 36-106) under glass marked 'BREAK IN CASE OF EMERGENCY'.

[lordmonar]

Step 1.  Select location for counseling....locked laundry room, behind the motor pool, and the rifle ranges, being prime locations so you my have to schedule with other NCO's to insure a private "conversation".

Step 2. Gather your counseling tools....brass knuckle, 2x4's and other object that leave marks are discouraged but are allowed. 

[Cecil DP]

Step 1.  Select location for counseling....locked laundry room, behind the motor pool, and the rifle ranges, being prime locations so you my have to schedule with other NCO's to insure a private "conversation".

Step 2. Gather your counseling tools....brass knuckle, 2x4's and other object that leave marks are discouraged but are allowed. 

A bag of oranges applied to the midsection (prn) doesn't leave any impressions except to the mind.

[SGT Dusty]

^ Juvenile records are sealed.  When the military runs their "basic background check" nothing will show up.  However, I personally don't like them recruiting from Juvenile Detention Centers.  I also had a guy (kid) that was given a choice by the judge.....join the Army, or go to prison.  He choose the Army, the court expunged his criminal record then the Army ran their checks.  Needless to say, I busted him on multiple shoplifting events at the PX.  I walked into his room, and he had stacks of unopened Cd's, a laptop and some shoes that went missing from the PX.  I also busted his room mate , as he knew what was going on but failed to turn his friend in.  I hate thief's.

Unfortunately this is not true, I work as a recruiter for the Army NG (what most would consider the most lenient of the services, wavier-wise) and your juvenile record will most certainly come up when we run your LEDS checks...happens all the time

[Major Carrales]

Folks, a person is responsible for their actions at all times.  If a child committs a felony, I have to ask why that was even possible?  Where were the parents/guardians.  Often times some student in class, who robbed a local home (not a house...a "home"), are treated as the victim.  Why was the kid unsupervised?  Where was the parent?  Did the kid sneak out (in which case there is malicious intent all around)?

I know for a fact that, even with parents aside, students in school are told that robbing, cheating and drugs are wrong from as young as Kindergarden.  There is no excuse for people to claim they don't know better.  They, therefore, have to face the music.

If a 22 year-old steals a car in the 1970s and is convicted by a jury of their peers, that person was responsible for that crime and has to live with it.

Each day I find myself lecturing at least one student on what is the "right path" and what is the "wrong path."  Parents and guardians have the greater role...we spend lots of time outright telling them the consequences for their acts.

If a person cannot, will not, listen to collected wisdom, then the price is high.

Youthful indiscretion only means mature consequences later.  Don't excuse stupidity and criminal acts because they were young when they did it; it won't undo the crime, especially a felony.

[SDF_Specialist]

students in school are told that robbing, cheating and drugs are wrong from as young as Kindergarden. 

Hence my interest in Criminal and Civil law. I do remember this, and what the good Major is saying is true. If an 8 year old kid breaks into a "home", or steals something from someone else, they need to be treated like a criminal (in theory that's why they are if they committed the crime), not like a victim. Not only would this show them that crime doesn't pay and that there are consequences for their actions, but it would be another good start to get them to be production members of society. When I was younger, I accepted my punishments, and learned from my mistakes. I was fortunate.

As far as parents are concerned Major Carrales, that's an issue that needs to be addressed by the law. Some cities in Ohio hold the parents responsible in addition to the child(ren), and that's a great policy. It's a legal smack in the rear end to get up, and manage your child(ren).

[Major Carrales]

students in school are told that robbing, cheating and drugs are wrong from as young as Kindergarden. 

Hence my interest in Criminal and Civil law. I do remember this, and what the good Major is saying is true. If an 8 year old kid breaks into a "home", or steals something from someone else, they need to be treated like a criminal (in theory that's why they are if they committed the crime), not like a victim. Not only would this show them that crime doesn't pay and that there are consequences for their actions, but it would be another good start to get them to be production members of society. When I was younger, I accepted my punishments, and learned from my mistakes. I was fortunate.

As far as parents are concerned Major Carrales, that's an issue that needs to be addressed by the law. Some cities in Ohio hold the parents responsible in addition to the child(ren), and that's a great policy. It's a legal smack in the rear end to get up, and manage your child(ren).

The main problem with Juvenile justice is that it teaches children that they can "keep getting away with it."  A kid break into a home, steals property, sells it off and sells drugs; instead of truly correcting the problem they are given a "slap on the wrist" and returned to school.  Then, if they spend a nigth in Juvenile Hall, they are enboldened by the effort and become "heros" to the others.

I have a probation officer, becomes a status symbol.

Then they turn 18 and...wah!!!  suddenly they are "victims" of an "oppressive society."   Bravo Sierra!  They are victims of a lazy and apthetci society unwilling to face realities.

The excuse, "they are just kids" or "boy will be boys" doesn't cut it anymore.

Whereas when I was a kid, back in the late 1970s/early 1980s, childhood ended in the 9th grade and more ADULT THEMEs didn't start until that freshman year; these days that "adult awareness" is coming as early as 8 years old.  The result, more adult problems at younger ages, like real crimes...murders, drug pedling and larsony of all types as well as pregnant 5th graders (of which there are more and more, its sad when I get numerous two time 7th graders come to the 8th grade with three kids...and this is a rural school).

These are social problems that Economic and Political soultions cannot address...it seems.

That, my dear CAP Officers and Cadets, is what we face.

[SDF_Specialist]

And with that sir, I say that is why CAP should crack down on the cadets AND officers, and let nothing pass. I personally believe in the "Two Strike Rule". The first time you get reprimanded. The Second time, you're out.

I feel bad for the pregnany 5th graders you mentioned, but I would like to point out that it doesn't matter where it is. I understand that it is more common in inter-city, but all you need is one negative force to influence and entire community.

So how do we get a hold of our society and make it better? Good question, no answer.

[floridacyclist]

I don't consider myself a bleeding-heart and in fact probably have tougher attitudes toward crime than many in here. For example, I don't oppose the death penalty on moral grounds, but simply because I think it is too easy....I don't think they should simply exit stage left, but should have to live the rest of their life with a complete loss of freedom, which to me is a fate worse than death. At the same time, if they want to execute a murderer, it doesn't hurt my feelings, I just don't think that death is the worst punishment we can give him. No, I do not advocate torture...we're better than that, just literally lock them up and feed them sufficiently until they die. If they go crazy, it's not like they're going anywhere and society hasn't really lost that much when they lost them.

I do think however that many (far from all) crimes should be able to be put in the past. To me it is simple management by objective. Is our objective to punish everyone and hold them forever accountable or to build a better society? By not giving folks a way to redeem themselves, are we hurting society in the process by A) Denying society of these people's contributions and B) Beating these people down to the point that they lose track of the light at the end of the tunnel and give up on being as productive as they could be?

Some crimes should never be forgotten....child molestation, rape, first-degree murder, armed robbery etc. Once someone has shown themselves capable of overtly hurting other people to that extent, I could really care less if they rot in prison. It's the less serious crimes I'm talking about..the ones where the victims aren't as apparent and where someone with a bit more maturity and re-education might begin to recognize the real reason why those things aren't allowed...drugs, non-violent theft, many white-collar crimes etc and actually make changes in the way they live and view the world as they grow and mature.

This isn't about what may be best or worst for the criminal, but the net cost to society. As a whole, which course of action is best for society if we have a 12yo kid who walked by a car with the keys in the ignition and took it for a joyride?

A)We are all tough with him and lock him up for several years before turning him loose with no social skills, a very dim future and an extremely high risk of redecividism ....but we were tough and we solved the problem by gawd.

or

B) We throw the book at him from a social standpoint....counseling, remove him from the environment that he's in (or seek help for the parents that may be overwhelmed and under-skilled), assign him to a mentor who tracks him, and for punishment assign him to weekends of hard physical labor to pay back society for causing them trouble...and if he keeps his nose clean for XX number of years, his record gets wiped clean.

Once we put our emotions and thirst for revenge and justice aside, which way is best for us overall?

As a parent, I have often found myself telling my kids "I am very disappointed in you and am very angry with what you have done. You will be punished severely. However, we will also get through this and you will be given an opportunity to earn my trust back....but it will take time and it may be rough in the meantime". I at least gave them hope of learning a lesson and moving on....and I think that these conversations were much more productive in the long run than "Dude, you have seriously screwed up and will have this held over your head for the rest of your life with no chance of ever forgetting it." Once someone loses hope, they lose all motivation to do the right thing as well.

At one point, we were experimenting with restriction as discipline and it wasn't working because they were getting on restriction faster than they were getting off...they saw no point in behaving because they still had so many restriction sentences stacked up that they couldn't see the freedom waiting at the end. Once we went to push-ups or several hours of hard labor with immediate release after that, they straightened up immediately as while the consequences were strict, they could see past them and recover.

Society in general should think past the end of a pending sentence and consider what kind of person comes out of jail before we send a kid in. It's not as black and white as we would like to think and it has very little to do with what is fair to the criminal, which is actually a very low priority on my list.

[Flying Pig]

I have no problem with letting people redeem themselve, just not in CAP.   There are many organizations where they can participate.  The Air Force Auxiliary shouldnt be one of them.

I will reiterate again what I have pointed out.  The majority of SAR is conducted by law enforcement agencies.  CAP will find itself no longer participating when word gets out that we allow felons.  In cadet programs, I dont know of many parents who want their kids being taught by a felon regardless of how long it has been.  I will not be put in a poisition nor allow anyone in my unit to be placed under scrutiny by an outside agency because CAP has decided it needs to let criminals have second chances.  You will start seeing other agencies placing additional requirements on CAP members outside of our regular requirements.  People do recover from past lives of crime and they do move on, but its not CAP's responsibility.  A felony conviction is not  a"mistake" in ones past.  It is a crime that someone commited with intent to commit that crime.  In order to be convicted the primary element is proving one had the intent to commit the crime.  People arent convicted for "mistakes" although they like to convince themselves they were.

I hear the same argument from law enforcement candidates who have had past convictions and are DQ'd.  There first response is that people change, and people should be given second chances.  And you know what?  They are right.  But there are organizations where that second chance isn't appropriate. Missions in CAP are and can be techinical and dangerous.   Our members have died performing their duties.  This is not an arena for second chances.   

I dont care about rehabilitation or what happens to them when they get out.  We are over flowing with money and programs to help people when they get out.  I see Probation Officers and Parole Agents practically begging people to enroll in programs and job training.   It isnt the job of the government to dislodge your head from your rectum.  Jail or Prison is punishment.  You dont learn your lesson, you get to go back even longer.  You do something really bad, we dont need you breathing our air anymore.  The Politics aside, the issue with felons being allowed in CAP has nothing to do with punishment or forgiveness, liberal or conservative.  It has to do with a responsibility that we will provide, as best we can, trained members who have a history of making good choices.  And the best system we have starts with excluding from our ranks people who have criminal histories.  Sure people will argue divorces or bankruptcies should be included, but in reality that isn't a road we can travel down, nor does the same type of person who gets divorced going to necessarily be the same person who will sell meth for extra cash, or the person who files bankruptcy going to embezzle money.

There is no right to be in CAP.  And if serving in a Squadron Commander position, none will ever join CAP through my unit.  I will be more than happy to direct them to other community organizations where they can feel good about themselves and give back to society.  For those of you who think Im to harsh, please post your Squadron name and address so we can direct future felony applicants to your unit.

[floridacyclist]

I'm not referring to CAP specifically, but society in general. Yes, CAP needs to follow the same general guidelines as LE agencies when it comes to standards. I just think that for many non-violent crimes, those standards should allow for eventual full redemption and re-integration into society, but only as long as the person plays well in the sandbox of life, say for 10 years. This would give convicted criminals greater motivation to straighten up and fly right which to me is a much greater goal than simple punishment.

And yes, I do care what happens to them after they get out...we still have to live with them and I'd much rather have a neighbor working on getting his life in order with an achievable goal in sight than a neighbor who has given up on ever being like others because society has dictated that he will always be thus.

Of course, you are always going to have those who simply cannot live by society's rules regardless of how hard you try to help them and for them we just need to lock them away for good until they die of natural causes, whatever it takes to keep them away from the rest of us.

[Ned]

A felony conviction is not  a"mistake" in ones past.  It is a crime that someone commited with intent to commit that crime.  In order to be convicted the primary element is proving one had the intent to commit the crime.  People arent convicted for "mistakes" although they like to convince themselves they were.

Robert,

I understand that you were trying to simply a complex area of criminal law, but if you will permit a gentle correction.  While there are a number of "specific intent" felonies in California where the proof has to show that a person committed a prohibited act with a specified specific intent or mental state, the majority of felonies are so-called "general intent" felonies.  In a general intent felony, the proof need only show that a person willfully committed a prohibited act.  Their subjective intent is irrelevant.  Indeed, such crimes do not even require that the criminal know that their actions were against the law.

As a practical matter, that is the best way to enforce a "ignorance of the law is no excuse" policy.

Example:  "Possession for Sale" of a controlled substance requires proof not only of possession but also that the possessor had the specific intent to sell the drugs (as opposed to stocking up for personal use.)

Example: "Simple Possession" of a controlled substance requires proof only that a person knowingly possessed a usable amount of a controlled substance.  They are still guilty if they thought they were possessing coke but had meth instead, or possessed (unprescribed) oxycodone tablets even if they didn't know it was a felony to do so.

In California, both are normally classified as felonies.  But generally the "specific intent" felonies are among the more serious.

In general, I concur that most folks with a felony background are better off pursuing their rehabilitation elsewhere.  But I think there is a place for some folks who have proven their rehabilitation and have a skillset beneficial to the organization.  If the crime was 30 years ago, or if the person has received a pardon, etc, are factors a unit membership board and NHQ should consider in approving membership and/or a waiver.

Thank you for your service.

Ned Lee
Former CAP legal officer

[wingnut]

So! can Bill Clinton be a member of CAP??

[SDF_Specialist]

So! can Bill Clinton be a member of CAP??

That has CPPT violation written all over it.

[Skyray]

So! can Bill Clinton be a member of CAP??

Only if he gets readmitted to the Arkansas Bar.

[alabamapilot1952]

Yes, a waiver can be given by NHQ.  I am a convicted felon with a drug possession charge 5 years ago.  I also have six misdemeanor convictions ranging from assault and battery to petty theft.  When my background check came back unapproved, I wrote a letter to NHQ and eventually was approved for membership.

[RiverAux]

Boy, I'm not sure I would have approved that, especially since the charge was so recent.