Forecast of Iowa Wing.

[Major Carrales]

In CAP our units do what they can with what they have.  Taking resources away from local squadrons or overcentralization will do more harm than good if certain things are not considered.

The units of South Texas are basically, outposts.  Yes, outposts.  The better goals would be to concentrate training in that area...not at a wing level.  Wing HQ is near 10 hours from Brownsville...7 hours from Corpus Christi and 5 hours from Victoria. 

I am amazed at how it is the logic of CAP Officers at WINGS to try to uproot intire units and personnel, move them hundreds of miles away for training that should take place "in the field."

[Eclipse]

I love being a controversial agitator.

A few years ago, I would have agreed with capchiro and others.  But for almost three years now, I've been an IG officer.  I have no idea how a "Composite" squadron with less than 60 or so people is able to accomplish all 3 CAP missions.  Normally, one finds:

1.  Commanders at the local level have neither the time nor the expertise to do all the missions.  Things get thrown out to lighten the load.  Usually the first piece of jetsam is the external AE program.

2.  Then the officer AE program gets ditched, because nobody's got the time.

3.  There are Composite squadrons with less than 6 cadets.  How much leadership training can go on with that kind of situation?

4.  Unless a unit has pilots, and not all do of course, the cadet AE program gets weak.  How can a non-pilot answer some of the questions cadets have?

5.  Squadron commanders can choose to focus their effots as they see fit, which is some cases means that a cadet squadron gets real good at drill, but never sees an ES mission.

I'm sure somebody will chime in the "MY unit does this and that and all things with appropriate excellence... " and that's good.  But understand any unit that is doing all three missions well is a rare bird indeed.

I suggest that it is time to think outside the "Box" and come up with new solutions to re-invigorate CAP and its missions.  I'm not saying that the brief suggestions we post here are THE ultimate solution to all of CAP's problems, but they are solutions that need to be considered.

If things were going well at all units, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  So one cannot define this as "Change for the sake of change."

You're right, but the issue isn't that the program doesn't work, its that unit cc's are not being required to work it in its entirety, there's is no central coordination or economies of scale, and in short, no management.

Most Wing CC's are operating on the "just keep the doors open" philosophy, while the house crumbles around them.

Require units mount a schedule which fufills the mission and this whole problem goes away.  Pilots and airplanes can go to where ever they are needed, you generally just have to ask.

Too many unit CC's are cherry picking the "easy" or "fun" stuff and ignoring the rest. 

Those should be the first to go.

[RogueLeader]

In CAP our units do what they can with what they have.  Taking resources away from local squadrons or overcentralization will do more harm than good if certain things are not considered.

The units of South Texas are basically, outposts.  Yes, outposts.  The better goals would be to concentrate training in that area...not at a wing level.  Wing HQ is near 10 hours from Brownsville...7 hours from Corpus Christi and 5 hours from Victoria. 

I am amazed at how it is the logic of CAP Officers at WINGS to try to uproot intire units and personnel, move them hundreds of miles away for training that should take place "in the field."

Yes, that is the reason that I said that it should be at region, or even sub-region, that works for the people training. The WTA works for Iowa because of size. The farthest drive is 3.5 to 4hrs.  I would hope that you can cut that to no more the three.

[RogueLeader]

Continuing previous post, was in class,

Particularly where you are very remote from WG HQ, the Super unit would probably work well for you.  What you might do is contact other squadrons, and ask if there are any training needs that you need as well, or training that you could provide to them.  If you both need training, and maybe a few other units as well, see if you could get somebody from wing or group to give it at a mutually agreed place.  This way, it saves time and money over all.  Group doesn't have to go to individual units, fewer trips, more standardized training, better connectivity.  Do you think that is worth trying.  I understand that you would have to travel from where your unit most likely is, but then you wouldn't be going to Wing or Group HQ either.  Give and Take; there is no other good solution.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I love being a controversial agitator.

A few years ago, I would have agreed with capchiro and others.  But for almost three years now, I've been an IG officer.  I have no idea how a "Composite" squadron with less than 60 or so people is able to accomplish all 3 CAP missions.  Normally, one finds:

1.  Commanders at the local level have neither the time nor the expertise to do all the missions.  Things get thrown out to lighten the load.  Usually the first piece of jetsam is the external AE program.

2.  Then the officer AE program gets ditched, because nobody's got the time.

3.  There are Composite squadrons with less than 6 cadets.  How much leadership training can go on with that kind of situation?

4.  Unless a unit has pilots, and not all do of course, the cadet AE program gets weak.  How can a non-pilot answer some of the questions cadets have?

5.  Squadron commanders can choose to focus their effots as they see fit, which is some cases means that a cadet squadron gets real good at drill, but never sees an ES mission.

I'm sure somebody will chime in the "MY unit does this and that and all things with appropriate excellence... " and that's good.  But understand any unit that is doing all three missions well is a rare bird indeed.

I suggest that it is time to think outside the "Box" and come up with new solutions to re-invigorate CAP and its missions.  I'm not saying that the brief suggestions we post here are THE ultimate solution to all of CAP's problems, but they are solutions that need to be considered.

If things were going well at all units, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  So one cannot define this as "Change for the sake of change."

You're right, but the issue isn't that the program doesn't work, its that unit cc's are not being required to work it in its entirety, there's is no central coordination or economies of scale, and in short, no management.

Most Wing CC's are operating on the "just keep the doors open" philosophy, while the house crumbles around them.

Require units mount a schedule which fufills the mission and this whole problem goes away.  Pilots and airplanes can go to where ever they are needed, you generally just have to ask.

Too many unit CC's are cherry picking the "easy" or "fun" stuff and ignoring the rest. 

Those should be the first to go.

I have seen "Composite" units with 2 cadets.  How do they teach drill?  (Roll call:  "Smith!"  "Here, Sir."  "Good, all present and accounted for!")  How does a unit with 2 cadets teach leadership?  There are units that NEVER participate in ES.  They have no interest among the officers.  So, therefore the cadets are shorted out of one of the best and most satisfying aspects of CAP membership, as well as losing out on leadership opportunities.

If you are going to "Require" unit commanders to do all 3 missions, you will have to provide resources to accomplish those missions.  Now we're back to Group or Wing providing "Contact Training Teams" from specialized units to provide trainers to units with officers lacking certain skills.

But maybe the answer isn't to make specialized units.

Maybe the answer is to collect our best folks in CP, AE, and ES, and form them into "Training Support Units."  Put the experts in one unit to manage them, and send them out to units needing support.

[ColonelJack]

Kach ... as someone else has pointed out, "requiring" someone to do things, or making them "mandatory," is rather hollow in CAP.  There's no teeth behind it.  What will HQ do?  Fire the guy?  Dock his pay? 

I agree, though, that something needs to be done to make the program more relevant to all units.  My old unit had at most 25 cadets, and we had an active AE and ES program then.  There were times, though, when participation was at the 6 - 10 cadet level, and our officer corps was kind of skimpy as well ... I relied on Group staff for training in those situations and it worked out great.

It actually comes down to what a Wing or Group can provide, not necessarily what it should provide.  In a perfect world, we'd all have everything we need and all the people needed to do the job.  This not being the perfect world, as someone once said, we have to "do what we can with what we got."

Jack

[Eclipse]

There are units that NEVER participate in ES.  They have no interest among the officers.  So, therefore the cadets are shorted out of one of the best and most satisfying aspects of CAP membership, as well as losing out on leadership opportunities.

Whether the officers are "interested" or not is besides the point.  The unit commander has a fiduciary responsibility to execute the 3 missions - the "nah, nah, I don't feel like it issue of CAP notwithstanding,
as it stands today, these CC's aren't even being presented a standard, let alone being held to one.

If you are going to "Require" unit commanders to do all 3 missions, you will have to provide resources to accomplish those missions.  Now we're back to Group or Wing providing "Contact Training Teams" from specialized units to provide trainers to units with officers lacking certain skills.

But maybe the answer isn't to make specialized units.

Maybe the answer is to collect our best folks in CP, AE, and ES, and form them into "Training Support Units."  Put the experts in one unit to manage them, and send them out to units needing support.

THIS is an outstanding idea, and quite possibly the best thing we could do with cadets who reach the end of their careers in a given unit, or /cc's, etc., who have rise to a certain level then settle back into the program.

Most units just need s little push, or a little help, and then the interest that got people involved initially kicks in.

Rather than expect the cadre to come to Wing, Wing should be going to the cadre.  Outstanding suggestion.

[isuhawkeye]

I agree with the traveling trainers concepet, and for a while a group of us tried to impliment the program.   Unfortunaitly after traveling for several weekends in a row delivering the same program to fewer than 3-5 students a shot most of the instructors dropped out. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I agree with the traveling trainers concepet, and for a while a group of us tried to impliment the program.   Unfortunaitly after traveling for several weekends in a row delivering the same program to fewer than 3-5 students a shot most of the instructors dropped out. 

That's the danger of this, or any similar program.  You can quickly burn out your best folks.

[ZigZag911]

Major Carrales, Texas qualifies (in my lexicon, at least!) as an Extra Large Wing, both geographically and, I believe, in terms of numbers....the only reasonable way for a wing like yours to offer coordinated training is on an area (or Group) basis....demanding travel to the wing HQ for ES or PD training for the entire wing would be unfair.....smaller wings like mine (NJ) can do it to some degree....although with our traffic & urban congestion, it can take 4-5 hours plus to travel the measly 160-170 miles from one end of the state to the other.

Colonel Jack, you are correct that we can't force people to do things....but Kach is correct that we need to provide strong motivation AND coordinate the human & logistics resources needed to accomplish the missions.

[Major Carrales]

There has been some centralization in Texas in term of the DSARex (Distributive SARex), where one mission base coordiantes a State Wide nexwork of Staging Areas.  But I agree, the Groups of Texas (larger than many Wings) are going to have to serve as Mini-Wings with active training and full staffs.

[isuhawkeye]

so some think our plan is doomed in claifornia and mexico.  As I recall this thread was entitled "Forcast of Iowa Wing".  Do you think we are doomed to fail as well?

[Major Carrales]

so some think our plan is doomed in claifornia and mexico.  As I recall this thread was entitled "Forcast of Iowa Wing".  Do you think we are doomed to fail as well?

No, I think your plan will be victorious in Iowa, however, I choose to look at it more as a "model" and "test bed."  There are things in it that cannot function in large Wings like Texas.  However, the concepts are the nuggets.

I think the best energy would be to run Iowa with this approach for three years, develop a "what works, what doesn't" then apply those lessons to the large CAP.  However, taking the "Iowa Model" and "grafting" it on to every wing willy-nilly might have more serious reprecussions there.

[isuhawkeye]

just a quick question. 

Does anyone know how the national guard, or other state wide organisations function in Texas. 

I'm sure that we arnt the only ones facing the problem of vast terrain. 

what lessons can we learn form them?

[Major Carrales]

just a quick question. 

Does anyone know how the national guard, or other state wide organisations function in Texas. 

I'm sure that we arnt the only ones facing the problem of vast terrain. 

what lessons can we learn form them?

Are you talking about the Texas State Guard?   What is the purpose of this question?

[isuhawkeye]

Many people have chosen to discues the Iowa wing plan as a model for the rest of the country.  Several of those members have commented that the Iowa plan will not work in larger states like Texas, and California.

As the Iowa plan was developed we interviewed, and looked at many outside organisations ranging from the National guard to the Boy/Girl scouts, and the red cross.  Each of these groups approaches training and management of its staff differently. 

My questions is weather anyone has done research to see how other organisations tackle the probelm of centralisation, or de-centralisation in large states?

[RogueLeader]

Get the State Director to get you an audience with the TAG- or whatever the title is in your own state.  Be very clear about what you can do.  Giving the briefing in a Military way will go a long way in re/establishing credibility with the State Military.  Also find a couple of State Reps who are at least neutral towards CAP, and convince them of how we can help THEM.  When they see how good we are, and that their sponsorship saves them money in the long run, you would well be on your way to being much more visible and thus being used.

[isuhawkeye]

UM.....  RL....

I don't wish to be rude, but we didn't get a meeting with the TAG until well into the process, and the LO didn't have anything to do with it.

Our first en rodes into the national guard were in the DOMS office.  Once we proved ourselves with the OPS guys they helped us get into the administration.

We then briefed the staff, and the DAG (not the TAG) sat in on that briefing. 

[RogueLeader]

Ok, thanks, I wasn't sure of the route that was taken.  Thank you for pointing it out to me.

Another point is to be able to back up what the Wing is promising to the State in the terms of capabilities.  That, all would agree, is a surefire way to kill the program.  Right?

[Major Carrales]

UM.....  RL....

I don't wish to be rude, but we didn't get a meeting with the TAG until well into the process, and the LO didn't have anything to do with it.

Our first en rodes into the national guard were in the DOMS office.  Once we proved ourselves with the OPS guys they helped us get into the administration.

We then briefed the staff, and the DAG (not the TAG) sat in on that briefing. 

Uh...that might be me 2b'ed.  Even to try to do some business with a local county we have had to go through the WING's contacts.  That leaves me to believe that this movement will have to be lead from the top.