How to handle TRANSGENDER Cadet: biology or choice?

[lordmonar]

Yes Thrawn if a person produces an ID as identified in the membership reg saying they are XYZ (even if their birth certificate said ZYX) then they are XYZ.  And this policy is available to any one who asks for it. 

It is exactly what happened at my squadron two years ago. 

[FW]

You may have official policy, but until such time as the echelons-above-reality choose to communicate that policy to those in the field, it doesn't really exist.

We (you, me, and CAP) have an official policy.

I can only agree that written policies are more easily communicated, but that doesn't mean they are not official.

Look, as a practical matter we are not talking about court- martialing anyone for not following a policy they weren't aware of.  If anyone doesn't know what the policy is, you and I can tell them.  If anyone calls NHQ, they will be told the policy.  All of us have a responsibility to follow the polices of CAP, whether they are written or otherwise expressed.

Rather than focusing on the best way to express a policy, I encourage the discussion of what changes, if any, we should make to our policy.

I'd love to see a discussion of how we should reach out to members, parents, and stakeholders about our policies and the educational materials, if any, we should make available to our leaders to help them work through the very real issues we all face at the local units.

NED says there is an "official policy" relating to this issue.  This policy is not written, but communicated from the National Commander down thru the chain to the membership.  This policy is being discussed in a formal committee which will recommend changes, modifications, and such to the commander for final disposition.  I'm sure any unit commander can get the current policy when requested. I'm sure there will be a time frame for members to contribute to the committee's work product.

So, in the meantime, I would suggest commanders reach out to the members when a need occurs, or make this the focus of a CDO/Chaplain project for the membership.  The more informed we are, the better able we will deal with this; both on an emotional and logistical matter.

[JeffDG]

You may have official policy, but until such time as the echelons-above-reality choose to communicate that policy to those in the field, it doesn't really exist.

We (you, me, and CAP) have an official policy.

I can only agree that written policies are more easily communicated, but that doesn't mean they are not official.

Look, as a practical matter we are not talking about court- martialing anyone for not following a policy they weren't aware of.  If anyone doesn't know what the policy is, you and I can tell them.  If anyone calls NHQ, they will be told the policy.  All of us have a responsibility to follow the polices of CAP, whether they are written or otherwise expressed.

Rather than focusing on the best way to express a policy, I encourage the discussion of what changes, if any, we should make to our policy.

I'd love to see a discussion of how we should reach out to members, parents, and stakeholders about our policies and the educational materials, if any, we should make available to our leaders to help them work through the very real issues we all face at the local units.

NED says there is an "official policy" relating to this issue.  This policy is not written, but communicated from the National Commander down thru the chain to the membership. This policy is being discussed in a formal committee which will recommend changes, modifications, and such to the commander for final disposition.  I'm sure any unit commander can get the current policy when requested. I'm sure there will be a time frame for members to contribute to the committee's work product.

So, in the meantime, I would suggest commanders reach out to the members when a need occurs, or make this the focus of a CDO/Chaplain project for the membership.  The more informed we are, the better able we will deal with this; both on an emotional and logistical matter.

But that's the point.  It hasn't been communicated down the chain, in any form.

[Holding Pattern]

You may have official policy, but until such time as the echelons-above-reality choose to communicate that policy to those in the field, it doesn't really exist.

We (you, me, and CAP) have an official policy.

I can only agree that written policies are more easily communicated, but that doesn't mean they are not official.

Look, as a practical matter we are not talking about court- martialing anyone for not following a policy they weren't aware of.  If anyone doesn't know what the policy is, you and I can tell them.  If anyone calls NHQ, they will be told the policy.  All of us have a responsibility to follow the polices of CAP, whether they are written or otherwise expressed.

Rather than focusing on the best way to express a policy, I encourage the discussion of what changes, if any, we should make to our policy.

I'd love to see a discussion of how we should reach out to members, parents, and stakeholders about our policies and the educational materials, if any, we should make available to our leaders to help them work through the very real issues we all face at the local units.

NED says there is an "official policy" relating to this issue.  This policy is not written, but communicated from the National Commander down thru the chain to the membership. This policy is being discussed in a formal committee which will recommend changes, modifications, and such to the commander for final disposition.  I'm sure any unit commander can get the current policy when requested. I'm sure there will be a time frame for members to contribute to the committee's work product.

So, in the meantime, I would suggest commanders reach out to the members when a need occurs, or make this the focus of a CDO/Chaplain project for the membership.  The more informed we are, the better able we will deal with this; both on an emotional and logistical matter.

But that's the point.  It hasn't been communicated down the chain, in any form.

You know what you are supposed to do when you need to address something that isn't in the regs that you aren't sure about? Go through your chain of command.

[JeffDG]

You know what you are supposed to do when you need to address something that isn't in the regs that you aren't sure about? Go through your chain of command.

Actually, the purpose of having subordinate commanders is use their best judgement.  If everything had to go through the chain-of-command, then CAP/CC is going to be fielding a lot of repetitive questions.  Which is why the "policy" should be communicated out.  If a commander were to ask me (were I not on here)..."Hey, I've got this happening, what do I do?"  My response before reading this would be "Well, the regulations don't cover that, use your best judgement."

[Holding Pattern]

You know what you are supposed to do when you need to address something that isn't in the regs that you aren't sure about? Go through your chain of command.

Actually, the purpose of having subordinate commanders is use their best judgement.  If everything had to go through the chain-of-command, then CAP/CC is going to be fielding a lot of repetitive questions.  Which is why the "policy" should be communicated out.  If a commander were to ask me (were I not on here)..."Hey, I've got this happening, what do I do?"  My response before reading this would be "Well, the regulations don't cover that, use your best judgement."

This is why I said: "something in the regs that you aren't sure about."

If you have common sense, use your best judgement. If you decide you need direction, get direction. Common sense says that if someone has an ID that says they are one thing, and another ID that says something else, one of two scenarios has occurred (not in any order):

1. Fraud
2. Legal status change

In the case of 1, you contact the appropriate authorities. In the case of 2, you use the data on the most recent form.

And I doubt anyone in a command chain is going to think you're being too careful if you decide to kick this question up the chain of command.

This isn't rocket surgery.

[Holding Pattern]

Yes Thrawn if a person produces an ID as identified in the membership reg saying they are XYZ (even if their birth certificate said ZYX) then they are XYZ.  And this policy is available to any one who asks for it. 

It is exactly what happened at my squadron two years ago.

This sounds suspiciously logical and simple.

[FW]

"But that's the point.  It hasn't been communicated down the chain, in any form."

Jeff, that may be true, however a senior staff member, and former member of the CAP Board of Governors stated there is an official policy.  There should be no problem for any commander to receive it.  My best guess this hasn't been a priority for dissemination is, because of the small percentage possibility it will be needed.  Most likely, a call to the GC's office will produce all the information you will need.  This information could be supplemented by a Chaplain or CDO with experience in these matters. 

But, this is just my opinion.  It's hard enough dealing with "normal"  teens going thru adolescence... As for adults, that is next to impossible!

[JeffDG]

"But that's the point.  It hasn't been communicated down the chain, in any form."

Jeff, that may be true, however a senior staff member, and former member of the CAP Board of Governors stated there is an official policy.  There should be no problem for any commander to receive it.  My best guess this hasn't been a priority for dissemination is, because of the small percentage possibility it will be needed.  Most likely, a call to the GC's office will produce all the information you will need.  This information could be supplemented by a Chaplain or CDO with experience in these matters. 

But, this is just my opinion.  It's hard enough dealing with "normal"  teens going thru adolescence... As for adults, that is next to impossible!

OK, what I'm saying is that if nobody has been informed, there is, effectively, no policy.

A local commander, when faced with such a situation, is not obligated to seek guidance from the GC's office.  He/she is completely free to use their own judgement, as they have no way of knowing that there is a policy to the contrary.  Some may go one way, some may go another.  Since NHQ has done nothing to guide the judgement of the commanders (a secret squirrel policy does not provide guidance to those not part of the secret squirrel club), they have no place whatsoever to object to a local commander violating this "policy".  As NHQ has no right to object to people violating their "policy", it is not a policy, but an aspirational policy, something that may someday become a policy, but at the moment, serves no purpose.

One e-mail to commanders and this is fixed.  This is not something that takes months of directed work to communicate.  Here, I'll even draft it for ya:

MEMORANDUM
FR:  CAP/CC
TO:  All Commanders
SUBJ:  TRANSGENDER MEMBERS

1.  It is the policy of CAP that in all circumstances, the legal gender of the member will be recognized for all CAP purposes.
2.  Legal gender may be established by the member by means of a birth certificate indicating gender, a court order modifying such gender as the result of legal proceedings, or state or federally issued identification issued to the member by lawful authority
3.  CAP NHQ is currently conducting a comprehensive review of this issue at this time, however, until such time as further guidance is issued, the provisions of this memorandum shall constitute the official policy of CAP

Signed
//Maj Gen//

[Ned]

"Treat them like the state treats them" works when we're just talking about regular meetings and activities, but I have some concerns for overnight activities.

I can only agree that meeting nights and ordinary unit activities present far less of an issue.  And that is where we have about 90-95% or our contact time with cadets - at the local unit level.

My understanding of this situation is that we do not want to cause negative psychological consequences on a young person who is already dealing with the stresses of growing up, plus the stress of dealing with their own gender identity. I get that, and even support it to some extent. However, when we extend this policy to overnight cadet activities, we now marginalize the potential concerns and "uncomfortableness" of the majority of cadets who do identify with their biological gender, in favor of preventing "unfomfortableness" on the part of the minority that do not. And that is not cool in my book either - we should not be inflicting potential harm on one group of youths in order to prevent potential harm to another. I think billeting separately is a somewhat fair compromise, but not every activity will have that option available. Then what do we do?

I don't think it is helpful to analyze or try to create workable rules based primarily on the subjective comfort level of the participants of a rather diverse group of members.  I honestly don't think we could ever really get something that works because folks honestly have greatly different levels of "comfort" in these situations.

(We are not that long past the times when some folks were not comfortable as sleeping in the same room with others from a different race or ethnicity.)

Society sets a few expectations, and CAP sets a few more.  Males do not generally billet with females, seniors do not normally billet with unrelated cadets.  Beyond those basic divisions, I'm not sure it is helpful to add more categories.

Interestingly, my subjective experience is that the cadets interacting with cadets is the least of our worries.  I think we need to work harder to meet the questions and concerns of the parents and other stakeholders are we continue to review the policy.

[Wispin]

It seems like there may be a lot of opinions in this thread that may be driven by a lack of understanding or misinformation.

As a former cadet (and hopefully future Senior Member - working on that soon!) who is transgender, if you have any respectful questions regarding transgender topics (as they relate to CAP or otherwise), I'll be happy to provide some insight from my subjective point of view.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't think the problem is so much misinformation or lack of understanding, but the fact that there are various understandings, stances, opinions, views, and disagreements regarding this topic within the medical, legal, political, and religious communities, which makes it harder for society as whole to have a unified understanding of the issues at hand.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Before this topic gets as heated as it did that last time it was brought up, please remember, RESPECT.

I will continue to support any LGBT Cadet or Senior Member. I judge by actions, not by anything else.

[MSG Mac]

The National Vice Commander stated at the 2015 NSC (and I'm paraphrasing) If you have a Transgender or sex change member Take them as they are.

[Chappie]

Before this topic gets as heated as it did that last time it was brought up, please remember, RESPECT.

I will continue to support any LGBT Cadet or Senior Member. I judge by actions, not by anything else.

I know that I am going off on a rabbit trail.  It has already been stated in this thread that CAP has a transgender policy .... but just want to get something off my chest and on to the record

Putting on my asbestos suit....speaking as a Chaplain who is a member of the Civil Air Patrol.   Indeed this can be a heated discussion...especially (as Storm Chaser reminded) in the medical, legal, political, and religious communities.  Here is my personal take and one that I share with my chaplain colleagues.

1)  CAP is not a religious organization -- never has been, never will be.  It is a secular, pluralistic, volunteer organization.

2)  CAP is not governed by the 10 Commandments.   We have official regulations, pamphlets and manuals that govern the way the organization performs its business and fulfills it missions.  We have a set of Core Values that all members are to embrace and embody: Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence, and Respect.

3)  CAP Chaplains are expected to serve all members (and their families) within the organization while remaining faithful to the belief system and the policies of their respective endorsing agencies.

4)  Should you not be able to treat another CAP member with Respect, then it would be advisable for you to find another volunteer organization to join.  The following example may appear to be apples and oranges but the principle is the same:  A chaplain made it known that he could not serve as the Squadron Chaplain because the newly appointed Squadron Commander was a member of a different faith group -- which the chaplain had problems with.  Once it became known, Wing Commander, Wing Chaplain, Region Chaplain discussed the situation -- reviewed the statements made publicly -- verified the position of the chaplain -- sought the advice of the Chief of Chaplains -- then offered a simple solution to the chaplain: resign or be 2'b for violating CAPR 265-2.   While denominational/faith groups may have policies that must not be violated by their clergy....there is no reason whatsoever to have an attitude of total disrespect for a fellow member.

5)  While my endorsing body has specific guidelines/policies regarding LGBT issues which I must adhere to, there is no statement that allows for or encourages me to show disrespect.  I am governed by the CAP Chaplain Code of Ethics to serve all members of the organization and to observe the Core Values.  Which leads me back to the main path of this thread and the question raised:

6)  As stated before in this thread, CAP has a transgender policy.   

[Spam]

The National Vice Commander stated at the 2015 NSC (and I'm paraphrasing) If you have a Transgender or sex change member Take them as they are.

"As they are" makes sense to me, as opposed to "as they wish they were". That Commanders Guidance passes the common sense test for me. 

Present ID - male/name Jeff - "Sorry, you'll need to take off the skirt and earrings, sir, but we would love to have your talents, and how would you like to serve as an AEO". 

Update post operations and legal ID change - female/name Jennifer - "Say Jennifer, did you update your eServices profile yet, and how is the annual AE plan coming along"?

Makes sense, I'd say. Still would like a written policy to implement the Commanders Guidance.

V/R
Spam

[ALORD]

As all Captalk topics eventually turn to the issue of uniforms, my understanding of USAF policy is that USAF reserves the sole right to issue policy regarding the wearing of the USAF-style uniform. CAP members have on certain ( painful) occasions, taken certain liberties in this regard, and it is incumbent upon CAP, and indeed not within their competence or authority, to decide upon issues of USAF Uniform wear outside those regulations and policies which have been enumerated.

[lordmonar]

As all Captalk topics eventually turn to the issue of uniforms, my understanding of USAF policy is that USAF reserves the sole right to issue policy regarding the wearing of the USAF-style uniform. CAP members have on certain ( painful) occasions, taken certain liberties in this regard, and it is incumbent upon CAP, and indeed not within their competence or authority, to decide upon issues of USAF Uniform wear outside those regulations and policies which have been enumerated.

Has anyone said otherwise WRT this topic?   

CAPM 39-1 is clear about males wear male uniforms females wear female uniforms.   CAP's policy is that Male/Female are determined by the state and we will respect the identification that they issue.

[ALORD]

As all Captalk topics eventually turn to the issue of uniforms, my understanding of USAF policy is that USAF reserves the sole right to issue policy regarding the wearing of the USAF-style uniform. CAP members have on certain ( painful) occasions, taken certain liberties in this regard, and it is incumbent upon CAP, and indeed not within their competence or authority, to decide upon issues of USAF Uniform wear outside those regulations and policies which have been enumerated.

Has anyone said otherwise WRT this topic?   

CAPM 39-1 is clear about males wear male uniforms females wear female uniforms.   CAP's policy is that Male/Female are determined by the state and we will respect the identification that they issue.

CAP has no authority to permit State policies to over-ride USAF regulations or policies permitting the wear of the Uniform. If you can demonstrate any single regulation from USAF that permits cross-dressing as it relates to the USAF-style uniform, you would have a valid point, but USAF does not recognize transvestitism or dysmorphic disorders as a valid excuse to wear the Uniform of the opposite gender.

[lordmonar]

We are not.

USAF regulations say men wear men's uniform and women wear women's uniform.

The USAF does not currently allow transgender people to join the USAF ergo....they do not have any regulation about what transgender people can wear.

And I am confidant that CAP and CAP-USAF are in constant communication about Transgender CAP members.  So your concerns are not warranted.  If you want to find reasons to stick it to NHQ.....this dog don't bark.