Cadet with Alcohol Misdemeanor

[JacobAnn]

Well.......Im glad I never got caught!!   But to vague to really comment on.  I would hate to see a kid tossed for making a kid mistake.

Amen!  I'm certainly in no position to cast stones.  I "think" I turned out okay after getting a second (and maybe a third or fourth) chance.

[Al Sayre]

I frequently credit my time as a CAP cadet with keeping me out of jail, but I must also admit that I was introduced to a few vices by my fellow cadets...

[flyboy53]

Why are we discussing this subject here?

Life offers some hard lessons.

DISMISS!

[Flying Pig]

Im much more lenient on youthful mess-ups than I am on adults depending on the totality of the circumstances.  If this was a 17yr old cadet who just got caught tossing back a brew with his buddies on the tailgate of a pickup.... I dunno... call him in, maybe suspend a rank or a position removed for a few months.  Again, not a lot of detail here to really make a call.  Let mom and dad be involved in the discipline process to a point.

If the kid is already enlisted in the Marines my thought its that he's not a loser, he's just trying to spread his wings a little before he jumps out of the nest.  With teen guys, alcohol can be that "look Im all grown up now" act. 

When he hits the Corps, drinking is very much a byproduct of that life.  I didnt really drink much at all, even in the infantry.  Others blew it. 

[Flying Pig]

...and chances are as long as his community service is completed, the misdemeanor will drop off of his record when he turns 18.  I look at all the people I went through CAP with who are all now pretty amazing people.... several of whom I know tossed back a frosty beverage on the sly every once in a while.  Most were in college so they were 18, 19, 20 range. 

[Eclipse]

^ Getting away with something that is a bad idea doesn't make it a good idea, it means you dodged a bullet.

As a police officer yo surely know how easy it can be these days for kids to get off track, or get stuck in the system
because of piled up little mistakes.

I don't drink and never did (beyond an occasional Irish Coffee), nor did many of my friends, but when I think of some
of the dumb stuff I did in my late teens and early twenties, I realize the only reason I'm alive is because I wasn't physically impaired.

[Flying Pig]

^ Getting away with something that is a bad idea doesn't make it a good idea, it means you dodged a bullet.

As a police officer yo surely know how easy it can be these days for kids to get off track, or get stuck in the system
because of piled up little mistakes.

I don't drink and never did (beyond an occasional Irish Coffee), nor did many of my friends, but when I think of some
of the dumb stuff I did in my late teens and early twenties, I realize the only reason I'm alive is because I wasn't physically impaired.

Who ever said it was a good idea?  Yep... it is easy for them to get off track.  Thats why you don't boot a kid out of CAP for having a drink unless its a bigger problem or there is more to it.  Kids do step over the line.  And I would say in the case of the few older cadets I knew, they stepped over it, but it was staying in CAP that kept them on a self imposed very short leash of what they were willing to "experiment" with.  I don't know that any of them were ever "caught" per se... It was just something I knew because of being around them although I never actually saw them drink.

When I ran the unit in CAP we had a couple kids who were about one meeting away from being walked out because of their attitudes, predominately because of the gang culture they were surrounded by at home.  These were tough kids.  They didnt get any slack and were held to the same standard.  But its because of CAP that these two "kids" are now adults and both serving in the military.  I have to believe it was the draw to CAP that prevented them from getting worse.  Because everything else they had was pushing them the other direction.  It was because of the staff that ran the cadet program and my deputy commander who was a former Oakland CA school teacher who snatched them up by the necks and set them on the right path.

So a kid gets caught drinking?  Yes, deal with it swiftly and make a statement provided there are no other extenuating details being left out.  In this case he's already been dealt with via the juvenile justice system.  Let CAP deal with it also, but to just boot the kid out because of it? Hammer the kid pretty hard... if he's willing to take it, then he's remorseful.  If not, he's not.  I mean any staff positions he has, gone.  Maybe a reduction in grade for a reasonable amount of time?  Yes.   But with a time frame that will allow for him to earn it back if that amount of time is available.

The idea of the cadet program isnt absolute zero tolerance.  If it was, we wouldn't have avenues of progressive discipline.  2B would be the only option for any mistake.   Sorry, a 17yr old getting caught drinking is a youthful mistake.  Yes it has criminal penalties, but its a mistake.  This cadet didnt get away with anything obviously.   Let his attitude from here on out dictate whether he stays or goes.  Again, assuming the cadet isnt a pain in the --- already who needs to go bye bye.

[NIN]

Well, you could argue that...

It's a clear violation of the cadet oath, core values, and a tenant of the DDR program.

At a minimum, disciplinary action would be called for.  A one-time mistake shouldn't end a cadet,
but it's certainly grounds for very direct conversations.

NIN's approach is probably the best, without knowing anything else about the situation or this cadet.
Clearly a number of messages are not getting through.

Yeah, sadly: you can't precisely terminate a member for just a prima facie (note: I have used a legal Latin term here, its my way of summoning Nedly to comment..LOL) violation of the cadet oath (most of it, anyway), core values or the DDR program. Cadets at least.

35-3 allows for several causes to terminate cadet membership:

1) Failure to progress (which is where you get a demoted cadet who doesn't earn-back his grade, but thats also covered in 52-16). You need massive documentation on that, if you're gonna go in that direction. You need to demonstrate that you've alerted the cadet to failure to progress could result in termination, you have given the an action plan, you've helped them if they have an issue (ie. taking tests), etc, etc.
2) Lack of interest (three meetings, etc. Again, you better document that, including alerting the cadet, counseling, etc)
3) Misconduct. Ahhh, here we go.  This is where we *might* hang a termination on the aforementioned issue.
- Conduct unbecoming. OK, is that conduct unbecoming? Sure. Have you informed the cadet that this is conduct unbecoming? Counseled him on it? Please define examples of conduct that is unbecoming.  Is there a track record?  One time event? Prior incidents that have been addressed?  Hard calling one instance a track record, and unless it was a terribly egregious thing that literally happened at a CAP activity, like  getting sauced at a CAP conference and barfing on the wing commander's shoes, you might have a tough time making a one-time thing outside of CAP stick under "conduct unbecoming." I certainly wouldn't attempt a termination under conduct unbecoming without a "you did this thing, we told you it was wrong and to not do it again" documentation.
- Making false statement to or concerning CAP.  Yeah, likely not applicable here. Again, need to document.  Did the cadet forge the wing commander's signature on a CAPF 101? (had that happen! Resulted in a written counseling, told cadet if he blinked wrong he'd be gone after that. Never progressed beyond his existing grade with that could over his head with me)  Again, probably need to document a track record, or have REALLY solid documentation on a one-time situation or else its going to be hard to make stick.
- Serious or willful violation of CAP regs or directives.  Are the core values "directives?"  I'd say "Maybe"  Can I hold a cadet 100% accountable for core values outside CAP?  Depends. Tough to make a termination stick on that, IMHO.  DDR?  Meh. Show me where adherence to DDR is regulatory.  DDR isn't even uniformly applied across the organization.  Cadet oath?  Not precisely regulatory, either, without something to really hang your hat on. A one-time event, you make it clear that it is unacceptable behavior, counsel the cadet in writing, and then you're poised to slam the door under the next codicil.
- Failure to obey rules, regulations and orders of higher authority.  Probably can hang a better opportunity for termination under this one. I'd still want a track record established by documentation versus trying to terminate on a one-time event like this. 
- Insubordination (tough to make that stick till you show a pattern. Again, documentation).
- Any other conduct [...] in violation of paragraph 1. Which basically says you have to continue to meet initial eligibility requirements for cadets as found in CAPR 39-2.  Ahhhh, if you have an arrest (as a teen) can I deny you CAP membership?  Maybe.   This is probably the "catchall" that would work to your favor.

and then we get to paragraph e. Cause, which relates back to the whole "is what they did something that would cause us to not allow them to join in the first place?"    Again, probably something you can hang your hat on, but I'd be cautious about trying to do it with a one-time event.  Since juvenile records are often sealed, we might have a tough time saying "OK, cadet or cadet's parents disclosed this to us as part of wanting to be on the level, so we should just terminate the kid and get it over with."   You wouldn't necessarily know about it otherwise.

So if Timmy's parents come to you, the commander, and say "Look, Timmy got busted for underage drinking.  Its a hell of a show stopper for him, but we're trying to find ways for this not to end everything positive in this kid's life over just one mistake.." now you're in a situation where you  have some leverage with Timmy (I've literally had this conversation with moms and dads, where we used CAP as a lever for their parental actions) and you might just get a win out of the whole thing and save Timmy from screwing his entire life up.

So, in the wake of that, now is when you establish a counseling baseline, inform Timmy that its not acceptable behavior, here's whats going to happen to you, etc, etc.

You can do things like rebuke a cadet by suspension, restriction of activities, demotion (per 52-16) etc, if you do it formally and in writing.

my continuum in this would be:

1) Written counseling (indicating why the behavior is not appropriate for a cadet. This is happening no matter what)

which could lead to

2) Suspension (30/60 days?  There are some rules surrounding suspension in CAPR 35-, para 2-2 that you better follow off the top of my head)
3) Demotion (demotions corrspond to 60-120-180 days of disciplinary action depending on if they are a 1, 2 or 3 grade demotion)

and if counseling doesn't do it, or any follow on action like suspension or demotion, or the offense is too serious to warrant 1, 2 or 3 as actions, then you arrive at #4:

4) Termination


Been there, done it.  Terminated it.  Made it stick.

[JeffDG]

and then we get to paragraph e. Cause, which relates back to the whole "is what they did something that would cause us to not allow them to join in the first place?"   

Actually, that's not what the "Cause" section says.  It indicates something that would disqualify a senior member from membership.  A misdemeanor alcohol charge/conviction would not, a felony conviction would.

Discretionary things, where a unit simply refuses to accept a member, do not constitute cause to terminate a cadet member.  This is where a misdemeanor alcohol conviction may come in in the senior world.

[NIN]

Good catch. I was working without a net there...

[rmutchler]

NIN hit it on the head with my thoughts.  My only other thought would be to turn this into a learning experience for not just the cadet, but the squadron.  Have them give a presentation on the dangers of alcohol...ties right in with Red Ribbon Week going on.

[Reacher]

Thank you everyone for weighing in with your input. I apologize I was not on for some time. Overall, I did get the message that termination is probably the best option in this scenario (but to get more details on the offense as well). Alternatively, we could find a way to develop the situation into a learning experience, and have the cadet in question make restitution somehow.

I know this cadet smokes/chews tobacco outside of CAP, and his family lets him drink as well (legally).

Thanks again for your input, and I will let you know the results ASAP.

[JeffDG]

Thank you everyone for weighing in with your input. I apologize I was not on for some time. Overall, I did get the message that termination is probably the best option in this scenario (but to get more details on the offense as well). Alternatively, we could find a way to develop the situation into a learning experience, and have the cadet in question make restitution somehow.

I know this cadet smokes/chews tobacco outside of CAP, and his family lets him drink as well (legally).

Thanks again for your input, and I will let you know the results ASAP.

You might want to read again.  The consensus I see is that termination is a last-resort, not "the best option"

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yea, message missed.

[PHall]

Yea, message missed.

Or ignored because it wasn't the desired answer.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yea, message missed.

Or ignored because it wasn't the desired answer.

Agreed, but leads to the same "missed" point. Clearly the outlook on the cadet is negative, as we now also get to hear about him "chewing" tobacco products, on TOP of his drinking.

[Al Sayre]

In some states, it is perfectly legal for a minor to consume alcohol at home under parental supervision, and here in the south it is not uncommon to see teens who dip snuff (or chew tobacco-less common).  While not wise choices, they may be legal in the OP's state, and would therefore not necessarily be CAP's concern unless it's happening at meetings.

[JeffDG]

In some states, it is perfectly legal for a minor to consume alcohol at home under parental supervision, and here in the south it is not uncommon to see teens who dip snuff (or chew tobacco-less common).  While not wise choices, they may be legal in the OP's state, and would therefore not necessarily be CAP's concern unless it's happening at meetings.

Concur with all of that. 

At some point, what a member does, whether cadet or senior, when not "on CAP time" is, to put it mildly, none of CAP's [darn] business.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In some states, it is perfectly legal for a minor to consume alcohol at home under parental supervision, and here in the south it is not uncommon to see teens who dip snuff (or chew tobacco-less common).  While not wise choices, they may be legal in the OP's state, and would therefore not necessarily be CAP's concern unless it's happening at meetings.

Concur with all of that. 

At some point, what a member does, whether cadet or senior, when not "on CAP time" is, to put it mildly, none of CAP's [darn] business.

Agreed. I started doing air quality tests when I was in college. For a year or so I was a cadet, but not active. The prohibition is against CAP activities and at 18-19.... Well, that was my choice to make. Of course a cadet who does "bad" outside of CAP can certainly be "punished" for it in CAP, but within reason.

[Devil Doc]

How does that saying go? "It is the Discretion of the Officer", In other words: the right to choose what should be done in a particular situation  or power of a judge, public official or a private party (under authority given by contract, trust or will) to make decisions on various matters based on his/her opinion within general legal guidelines. Examples: 1) a judge may have discretion as to the amount of a fine or whether to grant a continuance of a trial; 2) a trustee or executor of an estate may have discretion to divide assets among the beneficiaries so long as the value to each is approximately equal; 3) a district attorney may have discretion to charge a crime as a misdemeanor (maximum term of one year) or felony; 4) a Governor may have discretion to grant a pardon; or 5) a planning commission may use its discretion to grant or not to grant a variance to a zoning ordinance.