New NCO Promotion Regulations

Started by pierson777, September 20, 2014, 03:19:35 AM

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pierson777

I'm curious if anyone here as any insight into to the "whys" of the CAPR 35-5 NCO promotion requirements. 

A former CAP CMSgt told me six months ago that his chances of rejoining were 80%.  According to the new CAPR 35-5, he can't join my squadron now at the CMSgt grade.  He could have been our Leadership Officer and Testing Officer.  But apparently a CMSgt is overqualified.  I guess a Lt Col will have to do.  Why is the number of senior member Senior NCO's limited, unlike the officer grades?  It seems unfair.  What is the purpose of this limitation? I suspect that not all CAP SMSgt's and CMSgt's will always want to service in units higher than squadrons.

Also, why is there a requirement for a separate NCO Promotion Board in addition to the previously required Promotion Board?  The Officer Promotion Board is required to consist of PD, DP, and one additional member, with the chairperson at least equal to the promotion being reviewed?  On the other hand, we now have a requirement to have a NCO Promotion Board that must consist of the Unit Commander plus five additional members.  Couldn't the previously required Promotion Board meet the needs of reviewing NCO promotions?  After all, they were already reviewing 2d Lt through Lt Col promotions.

Lastly, why do prior military NCO's have to wait six months to be promoted to their CAP NCO grade?  That's not how the officer promotions are handled for prior military officers, and that's not how the NCO promotions were handled up until the new CAPR 35-5?  Before the new CAPR 35-5, both prior military officers and NCO's were eligible for promotion to their military grade upon completion of Level I.

Most of us are not likely to deal with these issues, but I'm really concerned about the two-tiered system, especially considering promotions are more restrictive for NCO's vs officers.

Panache

It can be argued that there is no need for the NCO system at all in CAP for adult members.

Eclipse

Because NCOs are the backbone of the new CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: pierson777 on September 20, 2014, 03:19:35 AM
I'm curious if anyone here as any insight into to the "whys" of the CAPR 35-5 NCO promotion requirements. 

A former CAP CMSgt told me six months ago that his chances of rejoining were 80%.  According to the new CAPR 35-5, he can't join my squadron now at the CMSgt grade.  He could have been our Leadership Officer and Testing Officer.  But apparently a CMSgt is overqualified.  I guess a Lt Col will have to do.  Why is the number of senior member Senior NCO's limited, unlike the officer grades?  It seems unfair.  What is the purpose of this limitation? I suspect that not all CAP SMSgt's and CMSgt's will always want to service in units higher than squadrons.
A) we are not officers.  B) It is in keeping with AD USAF to limit the number of SMSgt and CMSgt to a percentage of the total enlisted force.   While this does not translate well to CAP it is a way to insure (or at least try to) that only the most deserving of NCOs are promoted to the top ranks.   If you don't want want to or can't serve at the higher responsible jobs.....then you don't deserve to higher ranks.   Service time at group/wing/region should be required for Major and above IMHO.

QuoteAlso, why is there a requirement for a separate NCO Promotion Board in addition to the previously required Promotion Board?  The Officer Promotion Board is required to consist of PD, DP, and one additional member, with the chairperson at least equal to the promotion being reviewed?  On the other hand, we now have a requirement to have a NCO Promotion Board that must consist of the Unit Commander plus five additional members.  Couldn't the previously required Promotion Board meet the needs of reviewing NCO promotions?  After all, they were already reviewing 2d Lt through Lt Col promotions.
Flat answer is NO the current system for officer promotions was not good enough for NCO promotions in the opinion of the NCO working group.

QuoteLastly, why do prior military NCO's have to wait six months to be promoted to their CAP NCO grade?  That's not how the officer promotions are handled for prior military officers, and that's not how the NCO promotions were handled up until the new CAPR 35-5?  Before the new CAPR 35-5, both prior military officers and NCO's were eligible for promotion to their military grade upon completion of Level I.
Again we are not CAP officers.   Secondly.....one should be in CAP for a little while before putting on the symbols of authority.   

QuoteMost of us are not likely to deal with these issues, but I'm really concerned about the two-tiered system, especially considering promotions are more restrictive for NCO's vs officers.
Well....it is a two tiered system......NCOs and Officers.    Even on active duty the way enlisted types are promoted is vastly different then the way officers are promoted.  Also remember it is only more restrictive at the higher ranks.   Like it should be.  Also remember that this is a work in progress.  We are still in the tail end of the first Phase of a three phase project.   If the current system is not working we will make changes as necessary.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

One major change necessary is...

...finding an excuse as to why this is necessary...

An entire program being designed around a non-existent need, intended to fix an already bad situation,
which will only make it worse.

"That Others May Zoom"

The CyBorg is destroyed

What is quite silly is CAP's decision to make the cutoff at E-5.

E-4's are noncommissioned officers in every service but the Air Force (Army Specialists aside; that rank name is a complete misnomer from what it was initially intended to be: an enlisted version of warrant officers).

Petty Officer Third Class (Navy and Coast Guard) - NCO.

Corporal - (Army and Marine Corps) - NCO.  However, I could not tell you the last time I actually saw an Army Corporal.

Senior Airman (AF) - NCO.

CAP once had a full enlisted corps; I cannot fathom the reasoning behind partially bringing it back but cutting off at E-5.

If I could, I'd jack my Captain's bars and put on SrA stripes and gladly continue for another 20 years in CAP putting on stripes rather than bars and bottlecaps.

I remember when I first joined CAP, my ex-Army Specialist 4 dad (he'd been a Corporal in the National Guard, but they made him a SP4 when he went Active Army) looked at some of my CAP reading materials and said "it sounds like you've got more Chiefs than you do Indians."
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on September 20, 2014, 04:33:38 AM
What is quite silly is CAP's decision to make the cutoff at E-5.

E-4's are noncommissioned officers in every service but the Air Force (Army Specialists aside; that rank name is a complete misnomer from what it was initially intended to be: an enlisted version of warrant officers).

Petty Officer Third Class (Navy and Coast Guard) - NCO.

Corporal - (Army and Marine Corps) - NCO.  However, I could not tell you the last time I actually saw an Army Corporal.

Senior Airman (AF) - NCO.

CAP once had a full enlisted corps; I cannot fathom the reasoning behind partially bringing it back but cutting off at E-5.

If I could, I'd jack my Captain's bars and put on SrA stripes and gladly continue for another 20 years in CAP putting on stripes rather than bars and bottlecaps.

I remember when I first joined CAP, my ex-Army Specialist 4 dad (he'd been a Corporal in the National Guard, but they made him a SP4 when he went Active Army) looked at some of my CAP reading materials and said "it sounds like you've got more Chiefs than you do Indians."
Yes...but we are the USAF AXILLARY.....an E-4 from another service goes to the USAF he is a SrA.....even if he used to be an NCO.

When Phase three hits....you will be able to trade your Capt bars for SSgt stripes....we are just not there yet.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2014, 04:26:12 AM
One major change necessary is...

...finding an excuse as to why this is necessary...

An entire program being designed around a non-existent need, intended to fix an already bad situation,
which will only make it worse.
Maybe....just maybe....it is the first steps to fix "an already bad situation".
Maybe....just maybe.....in the future we will have an enlisted corps that the majority of CAP members belongs to and not everyone and his brother will be a Lt Col.

That you don't see the problem does not mean there is not one.   That you don't see the potential does not mean that there is not any.  I for one see this as a very good thing for CAP.  It will take a long time to make the shift....but I see this a good thing....and I'm not saying that just because I'm an NCO.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: lordmonar on September 20, 2014, 04:41:42 AM
Maybe....just maybe.....in the future we will have an enlisted corps that the majority of CAP members belongs to and not everyone and his brother will be a Lt Col.

This is one of my admittedly-rare full agreements with you, Master Sergeant.  It just seems goofy to me to join an organisation, show up for six months and get handed officer rank.

At least the Navy Sea Cadets make you wait a year, and you have to study their introductory book and be tested on it before they put Ensign shoulder boards on you.

Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Eclipse

We've been talking about this for years.

No one has articulated a single need which cannot and is not being filled in the current system.

"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

Quote from: lordmonar on September 20, 2014, 04:41:42 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2014, 04:26:12 AM
One major change necessary is...

...finding an excuse as to why this is necessary...

An entire program being designed around a non-existent need, intended to fix an already bad situation,
which will only make it worse.
Maybe....just maybe....it is the first steps to fix "an already bad situation".
Maybe....just maybe.....in the future we will have an enlisted corps that the majority of CAP members belongs to and not everyone and his brother will be a Lt Col.

That you don't see the problem does not mean there is not one.   That you don't see the potential does not mean that there is not any.  I for one see this as a very good thing for CAP.  It will take a long time to make the shift....but I see this a good thing....and I'm not saying that just because I'm an NCO.


Pat, this is a solution looking for a problem and you know that too.

lordmonar

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

abdsp51

As a current AD NCO I for one do not see the need or the gap the NCO program is intended to fix.  It would receive more support if there was a clear cut explanation rather than just because or because that's how the AF works.  But again change for the sake of change is what NHQ loves best.  They must have read AAFES playbook and taken some pages from it.

ZigZag911

Given that CAP NCOs are following the same professional development program as CAP officers, it seems to me that even those designing the NCO corps implicitly recognized that there is, in fact, no inherent difference in the two roles in CAP.

I have no opposition to having CAP NCOs, particularly because it is a way to meet the desires of experienced former military NCOs who have much to offer CAP...and who deserve some recognition from all of us for their dedicated, selfless service.

However, I still don't think CAP "needs" and NCO corps, nor in fact that this is the cure to any of CAP's problems.

lordmonar

Quote from: ZigZag911 on September 20, 2014, 06:59:39 PM
Given that CAP NCOs are following the same professional development program as CAP officers, it seems to me that even those designing the NCO corps implicitly recognized that there is, in fact, no inherent difference in the two roles in CAP.

I have no opposition to having CAP NCOs, particularly because it is a way to meet the desires of experienced former military NCOs who have much to offer CAP...and who deserve some recognition from all of us for their dedicated, selfless service.

However, I still don't think CAP "needs" and NCO corps, nor in fact that this is the cure to any of CAP's problems.
Phase II of the transition involves developing and implementing a different PD system the the officer side......so there will be a difference.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser

Quote from: pierson777 on September 20, 2014, 03:19:35 AM
According to the new CAPR 35-5, he can't join my squadron now at the CMSgt grade.

I don't believe that's necessarily true.

CAPR 35-5 states the following:

Quote from: CAPR 35-5, Para. 6-2aThe CAP initial grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard.

Quote from: CAPR 35-5, Para. 6-2cMembers who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander...

The higher headquarters duty position or manning criteria in Para. 6-3 and Figure 8 are for subsequent promotions. Furthermore, Para 6-3 states that the National Commander can grant waivers to the duty position requirement for MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt.

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on September 20, 2014, 08:36:34 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on September 20, 2014, 06:59:39 PM
Given that CAP NCOs are following the same professional development program as CAP officers, it seems to me that even those designing the NCO corps implicitly recognized that there is, in fact, no inherent difference in the two roles in CAP.

I have no opposition to having CAP NCOs, particularly because it is a way to meet the desires of experienced former military NCOs who have much to offer CAP...and who deserve some recognition from all of us for their dedicated, selfless service.

However, I still don't think CAP "needs" and NCO corps, nor in fact that this is the cure to any of CAP's problems.
Phase II of the transition involves developing and implementing a different PD system the the officer side......so there will be a difference.

And where, exactly, is this multi-phase plan to radically alter CAP published?

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

It was in the white paper that the SECAF (or his deputy assistant) signed.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

That wasn't a "plan", that was mostly "good" ideas.

"That Others May Zoom"

NCRblues

Pet project of the former Nat/CC, doubt we will see full implementation of "plan"
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC