Lets make all CAP senior members follow the same program

[Eclipse]

Thank you for your opinions, but I disagree.  And so far the poll seems to be going 3-2 in favor of keeping the present system.  The posters are in favor of changing it - but it's the usual crowd, and I'd guess a lot of those voting in favor aren't going to post the same in fear of the usual CAP Talk flaming they'll get.

If you don't want to engage the conversation, so be it, but I don't see anyone flaming anyone.

Disagreement is not flaming.

[RiverAux]

Is this an attempt to make rank mean something?

Since ranks has no real meaning......who cares?

Until we pin rank to actually responsibilities.....I dosen't matter if I give you an advanced rank to BGen or not.

Well, not exactly.  However, rank certainly can't mean anything if there is no common denominator of shared knowledge and experience among those that wear it. 

I think it stands to reason that if our PD is worthwhile, which most think it is, then there is absolutely no apparent reason why it should ever be bypassed. 

Show me some research proving the benefits of all the ways around the PD system and maybe I'll change my mind as to whether or not the current exceptions actually do some good for CAP. 

[RiverAux]

And so far the poll seems to be going 3-2 in favor of keeping the present system.

Well, the poll is going against my suggestion for the most radical change possible and I'm shocked that its getting as much support as it is.  I wouldn't say that everyone is voting for the status quo.

Perhaps I should have structured the polls to present a wider range of alternatives, but I wanted to see the baseline.  I'm sure that we could get majority support for cutting back the current ways of bypassing the system at least partially from where it stands now. 

[Eclipse]

That's the problem with these polls - no baseline to judge from.

We have no way of knowing how many people favor the status quo because they have benefited from it, which is why disruptive change is always a problem.

[lordmonar]

Is this an attempt to make rank mean something?

Since ranks has no real meaning......who cares?

Until we pin rank to actually responsibilities.....I dosen't matter if I give you an advanced rank to BGen or not.

Well, not exactly.  However, rank certainly can't mean anything if there is no common denominator of shared knowledge and experience among those that wear it. 

I think it stands to reason that if our PD is worthwhile, which most think it is, then there is absolutely no apparent reason why it should ever be bypassed. 

Show me some research proving the benefits of all the ways around the PD system and maybe I'll change my mind as to whether or not the current exceptions actually do some good for CAP.

Well now you got the Historian in me active.

RANK is an indicator of reletive postion with in a heirarchy.
The USAF does inf fact bypass its own PD system by awarding advanced grade based on a lot of factors.
Full doctors are brought in as Capts.
Nursers as 1st LT.
Some specialties are brought in even higher....I personally knew of a Surgeion brought in as an O-6!

Allowing people to "jump" the sytem does not deminish the system.....if used properly.

I thing as far as "showing research" the shoe is on the other foot.  Can you show that the current system is somehow failing or is less effective because we allow advanced promotions?

[Duke Dillio]

How about allowing the advanced rank but putting specific performance requirements to it?  For example, if we promote you to Captain you have to complete SLS and CLC within a year.  Or if we promote you to captain because you weren't in the room to turn down the squadron commander job, you now have three to six months to go through SLS, CLC and UCC.

[RogueLeader]

I replied "no" because I think that they are useful. I would like to make changes, such as removing time in grade, but make them do the appropriate training such as sls, obc, etc. I would still give military equivalence.

[Eclipse]

Is this an attempt to make rank mean something?

Since ranks has no real meaning......who cares?

Until we pin rank to actually responsibilities.....I dosen't matter if I give you an advanced rank to BGen or not.

Well, not exactly.  However, rank certainly can't mean anything if there is no common denominator of shared knowledge and experience among those that wear it. 

I think it stands to reason that if our PD is worthwhile, which most think it is, then there is absolutely no apparent reason why it should ever be bypassed. 

Show me some research proving the benefits of all the ways around the PD system and maybe I'll change my mind as to whether or not the current exceptions actually do some good for CAP.

Well now you got the Historian in me active.

RANK is an indicator of reletive postion with in a heirarchy.
The USAF does inf fact bypass its own PD system by awarding advanced grade based on a lot of factors.
Full doctors are brought in as Capts.
Nursers as 1st LT.
Some specialties are brought in even higher....I personally knew of a Surgeion brought in as an O-6!

Allowing people to "jump" the sytem does not deminish the system.....if used properly.

I thing as far as "showing research" the shoe is on the other foot.  Can you show that the current system is somehow failing or is less effective because we allow advanced promotions?

Dr.'s and other professionals provide a necessary and important service commensurate with their advanced grade, and the all go to at least
salutin' school.  Not so in CAP.

Further, you can't prove a negative, but I think we all know things are broken.

[Eclipse]

I replied "no" because I think that they are useful. I would like to make changes, such as removing time in grade, but make them do the appropriate training such as sls, obc, etc. I would still give military equivalence.

Remove TIG?

You could be a Lt. Col. in a year, 2 max.

[lordmonar]

Dr.'s and other professionals provide a necessary and important service commensurate with their advanced grade, and the all go to at least
salutin' school.  Not so in CAP.

Further, you can't prove a negative, but I think we all know things are broken.

And so is the the CAP system.
CFI and all those other special promotions are supposed to be providing a necessary important service.
I can't say "commensurate with grade" as that still has no meaning in CAP.
And we all go to "saluting school" in CAP....it is called Level I. 

Now....do you want to talk about putting some teeth into level I or making hard association with rank and responsibility.....well I'm all ears.
But unless we do that.....then this is just talking about making it harder for some people to get a rank that means nothing.

And as for my request for research....I did not ask to prove a negative.  I asked how is our program failing or less effective because of advanced promotions?

[Ned]

Sigh.

Yet another solution in desparate search of a problem.

To my knowledge this incentive has never been shown to be an effective recruiting or retention tool.

So what is your experience in the recruiting and retention field?  Have you conducted any surveys or studys?  Have you looked at data in any sort of comprehensive way?  What criteria did you use in judging whether your strawman assertion is "effective" or not?

I've never seen any official explanation for why we have NCO ranks, we most certainly don't have a "program" for them so I can only assume that we have them as an incentive to appeal to former NCOs who are feel that becoming a CAP officer would be demeaning. 

Wow. 

You have to be in pretty good shape to make leaps of logic like that.

We have had NCO grades since CAP was founded.  I'm sorry if Gill Robb Wilson, Fiorello LaGuardia, and Gen Curry didn't brief you on why they thought it was a good idea to have CAP mirror our parent service, but it seems a little  . . . unimaginative . . . to blithely assume that any of the reasons are because of RM NCOs belief that CAP officer grade is somehow "demeaning."  Perhaps your own insecurities are clouding your assessment here?

Once we are all forced to follow the same system for promotions, we can then make some headway in improving the professionalism of the force.  As long as a significant percentage of our seniors are able to bypass the system there is no chance of large scale improvements.

Ineresting assertion.  It may even be true.  Do you have anything to support this beyond personal opinion?

Who is with me?

So far, it looks like less than a third.

[Eclipse]

^ We may allow NCO's from other services to wear equivalent USAF NCO stripes, but we most certainly do not have an NCO "program" in CAP,
and haven't for more than 20 years.

The common sense fact of the matter is that if CAP grade is "meaningless", then it hurts no one to have to wait to earn it, and if it has meaning,
then it only enhances the value to have everyone earn it in the same way.

[RiverAux]

The USAF does inf fact bypass its own PD system by awarding advanced grade based on a lot of factors.

Of course they do and I'm sure that they have some very well documented reasons to back up the need to do so to meet their needs.  Just because it is something that works for their system doesn't automatically mean it makes sense for CAP.   Keep in mind that the advanced rank in the service has some extremely real valuable benefits in terms of pay and other perks that just aren't there for CAP.  If they gave a doctor Major rank but paid him like a private I doubt their system would work any better than ours does. 

Where is such research showing the actual proved benefits to CAP of this system?  Do we have CFIs beating down our doors to join CAP because they can get Capt. grade pretty quickly?  Are there surveys of CFIs who joined recently whose decision to sign up was in any way impacted by the advanced rank?

If there were only a few exceptions to the general rule of having CAP members follow the PD system, I could live with it.  But judging by the comparison of grade to PD level in my wing, about 25-50% of members are getting some sort of bump. 

[lordmonar]

The common sense fact of the matter is that if CAP grade is "meaningless", then it hurts no one to have to wait to earn it, and if it has meaning,
then it only enhances the value to have everyone earn it in the same way.

Oh I like that argument.

We don't need evidence....we just think it's not going to hurt anyone.

NO....I don't buy it.  It sounds like the root problem is that rank has no meaning.....and less so when people can jump the tracks.

I say that rank has no meaning.....whether they jump the tracks or not.  Making it harder to recruit CFI's and other personnel to the CAP ranks.

So...like I said....want to talk about making rank meaningful....or putting some real value in the PD system.  I'll buy it. 

let's face it.

Getting Capt is simply getting your Level I......anyone have trouble with that?
Gettin your Tech rateing..........I mean I see a lot of seniors dropping out because they just can't get the material!
Doing your BOC(what ever they call ECI 13 now).........again anyone, anyone know of anybody who has failed that?
Doing SLS.......again....got a pulse, $20 and 8 hours....congradulations you have passed SLS!

All the rest is just time, work and effort!

Now don't get me wrong......I think our PD system is just great as far as that goes.  But let's not make it out to be more than it is.

The is entire thread is about making something that is not too difficult to do......(making rank) a little more difficult for a very small section of new members.

Like Ned said.....solution looking for a problem.

[RiverAux]

a little more difficult for a very small section of new members.

Try 25-50%.  If it were only a very small section of new members I would agree with you.  If you know someone with access to commanders dashboard at your wing level I bet you will find something similar. 

[Eclipse]

It sounds like the root problem is that rank has no meaning.....and less so when people can jump the tracks.

I say that rank has no meaning.....whether they jump the tracks or not. 

We're in agreement, here.  So let's all stop pretending it means anything and move on - or better still, just dump it and move on.

We can still have PD without grade.  Give people decs and badges only for actual work objectively screened by someone else,
then the guys with the fanciest shirts will also be the ones doing the most real work and personal development.

We could still have courtesies - we just salute each other and call each other sir, you know, out of respect.

Commanders are commanders, same as today.

That eliminates the issues with the uniforms, confusion on military bases, and hard feelings when good people get stuck in political loops and can't advance for arbitrary reasons.

Problem solved.

[RiverAux]

a little more difficult for a very small section of new members.

Try 25-50%.  If it were only a very small section of new members I would agree with you.  If you know someone with access to commanders dashboard at your wing level I bet you will find something similar.

Well, I should say that 25-50% of those in the grade of Capt. or above.  Without going through everyone's individual record its impossible to tell how many of the 1st Lts. have obtained a tech rating and all the 2nd Lts. have Level 1. 

But, in my Wing 47% of Captains have not completed the appropriate PD level, 23% of Majors have not, and 34% of Lt. Cols. have not.

Look at all of them together and 35% of those in Captain or above in my Wing have not completed the PD appropriate to their grade.  Seems like it is more than a very small section.   

[lordmonar]

The USAF does inf fact bypass its own PD system by awarding advanced grade based on a lot of factors.

Of course they do and I'm sure that they have some very well documented reasons to back up the need to do so to meet their needs.  Just because it is something that works for their system doesn't automatically mean it makes sense for CAP.   Keep in mind that the advanced rank in the service has some extremely real valuable benefits in terms of pay and other perks that just aren't there for CAP.  If they gave a doctor Major rank but paid him like a private I doubt their system would work any better than ours does. 

Where is such research showing the actual proved benefits to CAP of this system?  Do we have CFIs beating down our doors to join CAP because they can get Capt. grade pretty quickly?  Are there surveys of CFIs who joined recently whose decision to sign up was in any way impacted by the advanced rank?

If there were only a few exceptions to the general rule of having CAP members follow the PD system, I could live with it.  But judging by the comparison of grade to PD level in my wing, about 25-50% of members are getting some sort of bump.

I agree....just because the USAF does something....does not mean we should.

So....what is the issue:

Some people with advanced skills and training are offered advanced promotion IF they joing CAP and IF the promise to use those skills for the CAP.
Some people who hold advanced positions with CAP are offered advanced promotions because of prestige issues.
Some people who based on demonstrated ability are offered advanced promotions.
Some people who have held military rank are allowed advanced promotions.
Some people who have progress in the CAP cadet program are allowed advanced promotions.

Becuse these people are offered and they accept advanced promotions.......CAP because less effective.......____________.

Please fill in the blank.

You are proposing a change to the system because you THINK it does not live up to it's intended purpose...i.e. attracing highly skilled members.
You want to kill a potental tool to recruiting because it may not work....okay...but what harm does it bring?

In what way is your and my ability to perform our duties effected by allowing advanced promotion? 
Other than it not being "fair" I can't see a single reason for not allowing it.
By fair I mean "gee I had to work for my Capt's bars....and all you had to do was be a CFI/Accountant/completed your Spaatz/Serve in the military for 6 years/be a squadron commander for a year!".

You have still failed to demonstrate the "problem" other then pointing out you don't see the benifit for having advanced rank.

[lordmonar]

a little more difficult for a very small section of new members.

Try 25-50%.  If it were only a very small section of new members I would agree with you.  If you know someone with access to commanders dashboard at your wing level I bet you will find something similar.

Okay......so there is your research...25-50% of our members are brought in on the advanced promotion system.

One would assume that we could see a drop between 25 and 50 percent if we did not offer these promoitons.

Again.....where is the "problem"?

[Eclipse]

Lord, you're pretending like you're new to CAP, seriously.  You're characterizing things they way they should be.

The "problem" is that most of the advanced and mission-skills appointments are made with no expectation of performance,
and in far too many of the cases these people stagnate at their level or worse.  Further, when random commanders
try to raise the bar and do things right, maybe even yanking grade of non-performers, the wailing and gnashing of teeth
is deafening.

It cheapens the situation for everyone involved, and if it's meaningless.  But worse, we give grade to the perceived
"special", while the regular shmoes doing the real work of the squadrons sit back and watch the new guys advance ahead of
them, before doing anything.  That's not a problem?  I can tell you that this has been indicated more than once
as a retention factor - you've got a commander in one unit holding everyone to an equal standard, and members can just
walk to the next unit and get bumped, then come back.

One would assume that we could see a drop between 25 and 50 percent if we did not offer these promotions.

We both know that's not true - in a lot of cases it's just a CC waiving his mighty pen, or a member grade-trolling.