boonie hats

[1sgtarcherCT062]

Are the boonie hats now allowed on the BDU uniform. There has been recent talk about it in my home squadron. And i believe it is, but I'm just making sure

                 -C/CCMsgt Zachary Archer

[Eclipse]

No.

They are only allowed with the blue field uniform, not the woodland camo bdu.

[1sgtarcherCT062]

Are you sure that is a national thing, and not just a wing rule?

[Eclipse]

Yes.

Boonie hats were approved by the board at the last meeting, however the USAF must approve any changes to the USAF-Style uniform combinations we wear.

The board indicated its intentions to submit a request for boonies over the camo BDUs (among other changes), however when they will and/or if the USAF will approve is is TBD.

Since CAP controls the majority of our corporate uniforms, the board can approve changes immediately for them, which they did.

FYI - if it were a wing rule, either authorizing or prohibiting something, it would have to be in the form of an NHQ approved and published supplement, which you would then have access to.

[1sgtarcherCT062]

Thanks for that, i just recently purchased one, and thought it was a waste of money, but now im assuming it will be allowed within the next couple of months?

[Eclipse]

Not an assumption you should make.

As I said, there is no indication when the board will submit the request, nor when or if the USAF will consider it.

There are plenty of uniform requests which die on the table without approval.

I seriously doubt they will be approved for the 2008 summer season.

[mikeylikey]

Thanks for that, i just recently purchased one, and thought it was a waste of money, but now im assuming it will be allowed within the next couple of months?

We don't even know what color, or variety or even brand will be accepted.  Heck, I am sure the sole supplier will be Vanguard anyway. 

[Hawk200]

We don't even know what color, or variety or even brand will be accepted.  Heck, I am sure the sole supplier will be Vanguard anyway. 

It will probably end up a very specific shade that is not available anywhere else. Vanguard will spend about 38 cents per hat dying them the proper shade. They will then charge $32.95 for it, and take 19 days to ship it to you.

(Me? Cynical? What gave you that idea?  )

[JayT]

Thanks for that, i just recently purchased one, and thought it was a waste of money, but now im assuming it will be allowed within the next couple of months?

Total waste of money.

[Hawk200]

Total waste of money.

Which is the downside to being an "early adopter".

[mikeylikey]

Total waste of money.

I was going to say that, but didn't want to upset yet another Cadet.    

[Hawk200]

I was going to say that, but didn't want to upset yet another Cadet.    

Since when?   

[JohnKachenmeister]

The USAF is very unlikely to approve the use of the bush hat. 

Sorry to spash cold water on your dreams, but you need to hear that.

Just call me the "Simon Cowell" of CAPM 39-1!   

[mikeylikey]

Just call me the "Simon Cowell" of CAPM 39-1!   

Dawg......don't go ruining his dreams!   

[lordmonar]

The USAF is very unlikely to approve the use of the bush hat. 

Sorry to spash cold water on your dreams, but you need to hear that.

Just call me the "Simon Cowell" of CAPM 39-1!   

I don't know about that....With the USAF going to ABUs, they may not be so hot on allowing us to wear the boonie.

This is one of those things that will just die with time....even if they allow us to wear the boonie...once we switch to the ABUs...there will be no more boonie hats.

[MIKE]

[Pylon]

The Air Force already denied CAP's request once for wear of the boonie hat.  So CAP went back to the drawing board and the NB voted to try for the blue boonie instead of woodland, for wear with the woodland BDUs.  We'll see how far that one flies if and when we get a response from the AF.

But you can wear it if you have Blue BDUs.

[Eclipse]

The Air Force already denied CAP's request once for wear of the boonie hat.  So CAP went back to the drawing board and the NB voted to try for the blue boonie instead of woodland, for wear with the woodland BDUs.  We'll see how far that one flies if and when we get a response from the AF.

But you can wear it if you have Blue BDUs.

The blue boonie is worn with the blue field uniform, the request was made to wear the camo boonie with the woodland BDU's.

[Pylon]

The blue boonie is worn with the blue field uniform, the request was made to wear the camo boonie with the woodland BDU's.

Oh, my mistake.  Well that should be interesting, since it'd be identical to the proposal the AF already denied.

[Eclipse]

Oh, my mistake.  Well that should be interesting, since it'd be identical to the proposal the AF already denied.

Yep.

[PHall]

That the Air Force has said can only be worn "in theater", i.e. in the Sand Box, only when the local commander authorizes it.

Just because the Cav Store sells it.....

[lordmonar]

My bad...I thought there would not be any boonies with the ABU....

[Eclipse]

[arajca]

Oh, my mistake.  Well that should be interesting, since it'd be identical to the proposal the AF already denied.

Not quite identical. The new proposal only allows for wearing the boonie in the field, not at bases of regular meetings, i.e. GT comes into base with boonies gets sortie'd out, no problem. GBD comes into incident base with boonie, is not getting sortie'd out, problem.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Not quite identical. The new proposal only allows for wearing the boonie in the field, not at bases of regular meetings, i.e. GT comes into base with boonies gets sortie'd out, no problem. GBD comes into incident base with boonie, is not getting sortie'd out, problem.

What about flight line guys?  Don't they get sun protection too?

[Eclipse]

What about flight line guys?  Don't they get sun protection too?

Age old argument - many FLS' don't allow hats on the flight line at all.

[lordmonar]

Not quite identical. The new proposal only allows for wearing the boonie in the field, not at bases of regular meetings, i.e. GT comes into base with boonies gets sortie'd out, no problem. GBD comes into incident base with boonie, is not getting sortie'd out, problem.

Unless you consider the entire mission base to be "in the field".

[PHall]

Yep, looks like the sand box to me, complete with sand storm.

[mikeylikey]

Oh man I hate sand.  I can't even walk on the beach anymore.   

[flyerthom]

snipped pics

Man, that'll hold Bass Plugs! Move over Col Blake the fishing flys got company!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Age old argument - many FLS' don't allow hats on the flight line at all.

I realize the argument has been made before.  But it seems odd that we tout the boonie hat as necessary for sun protection, but then forbid the folks who spend the most time in the sun to wear it.

[Eclipse]

The argument about this being a safety issue is made all the time - I don't buy it - wear some sunscreen.

[lordmonar]

Wether you buy the safety issue or not.......

What is the argument AGAINST boonie hats?

It all comes down to looks.

Some people don't like the looks of the boonies or think that outsiders may think that we are just posers.

How many times do we argue that function is more important than form?

If you argue that we need to pull the patches off our BDUs then you must....must accept the argument that boones are in fact, a safer head gear than the patrol cap.

Just as those who argue that all flight crew MUST wear Nomex for the extra protection they provide.....you have to....have to....accept that boones should be allowed for the added protection they provide.

[Dragoon]

You're right - a lot of the debate IS about looks.  But if we're gonna wear uniforms, we do have to consider looks.

1.  Boonies tend to look silly.  More Gilligan than Rambo.  Young strapping men and women can pull it off.  The average CAP cadet or slightly paunchy SM cannot.

2.  Boonies tend to be associated with special ops super troopers.  That's why the kiddies wanna wear 'em.  And for some, that's reason enough not to allow them (or berets or ranger tabs or whatever).

3.  It's another step away from uniformity.  Because we all know that it will be an optional item, and some will wear  it and some won't.


When you claim to be a uniformed organization, you do need to consider both function AND form. 

If all we cared about was function, then I could wear sneakers with my green flight suit (better feel for the rudder pedals), or brown goretex hiking boots with my BDUs (sturdier, lighter and warmer than the black leather equivalents), or even wear my boonie with my service uniform if I'm gonna be outside all day.

Form does matter.  So does function.  The best way to phrase the boonie debate is "is the additional utility worth the hit on appearance/uniformity?"  Neither automatically trumps the other.

[RiverAux]

If you argue that we need to pull the patches off our BDUs then you must....must accept the argument that boones are in fact, a safer head gear than the patrol cap.

How does that make any sense?  I haven't heard anyone make a claim that the wearing, or not wearing, a wing patch is a safety issue of some type. 

Beware the safety arguement, especially in regards to flightline operations.  One can easily say that doing them at all puts people at too much risk for little benefit in many cases.  The simplest solution to preventing skin cancer caused by excesisive time in the sun on flightlines is to just not do them, which also lowers the risk of having someone's head cut off by a prop.

 

[Dragoon]

Any time someone plays the safety card, I ask the same question - how many incidents of this have been reported to National HQ?  How many lawsuits or USAF/Congressional inquiries have come down because of complaints about "unsafe procedures" releated to this?

And then the crickets chirp....

[0]

Any time someone plays the safety card, I ask the same question - how many incidents of this have been reported to National HQ?  How many lawsuits or USAF/Congressional inquiries have come down because of complaints about "unsafe procedures" releated to this?

And then the crickets chirp....

It could be argued that the safety card is being played to be proactive so that we don't have inquires or incident reprots.

[cnitas]

Well, I have had blistering sunburns working flightline for CAP as a cadet.  I did not report the burns, but it was obvious to anyone who saw my face. 

I do not believe any senior ever sent up a report to national over my sunburns.

Perhaps I could get some money out of this?  Any lawyers around? 
Well, I could leave the money, but I might call my congressman to start an inquiry over the subject...but only if I get skin cancer in the next 10 years.

[Eclipse]

It could be argued that the safety card is being played to be proactive so that we don't have inquires or incident reprots.

Except that its not, and we have somehow managed to get through the 90's and almost 00's without boonies or rampant sunburn.

[lordmonar]

Except that its not, and we have somehow managed to get through the 90's and almost 00's without boonies or rampant sunburn.

And we got through the 50's with out seat belt, the 80's with out child seats and a whole host of other things we got away with before.

Not a valid argument.

The safety card is real.....to nay say it, is just as bad as those who try to use safety as a loop hole to get a neat hat.  That is all that I am saying.

If you don't like it....don't wear it.  If you are in charge don't let your subordinates wear it.  But don't take a tool away from me because you don't like my fashion sense.

[Dragoon]

But there are other tools we choose NOT to let them use.  For example, frilly pink parasols.  Now THAT's a shade producer, much better than a wimpy boonie hat.   

While it's silly to discount safety, it's also silly to discount uniformity.  Or cost.  Or added red tape.  You really have to weigh all the variables.  And an argument over whether the boonie's "bang" is worth the "buck" is a good one to have, whatever the outcome.

And beware of too much "pre emptive" safety.  If no one's getting hurt, you really, really need to be careful about instituting "just in case" safety measures.  Sometimes they help, but often then just hinder the mission for no good reason.

Another good example - about 10 years ago, someone wanted to mandate safety goggles be worn at all times in the woods to avoid getting branches in your eyes.

Sounded good.  But it had a down side.  There's the cost.  And the potential for obstructing vision. 

So........we asked the question - how many times has someone filed an accident report with NHQ about a stick in the eye?

(crickets chirping)

The idea died a well deserved death.


Another idea was allowing a lime green flight suit in the fall, as the visibility was higher than the colors we have now.  It IS safer - but how many pilots have we lost because we couldn't pick out their flight suit through the trees?


(crickets chirping)

Safety is good.  But safety for safety's sake is a self licking ice cream cone that can paralyze an organization.

[notaNCO forever]

Ever hear of sunblock I find it tends to work and you should all have it in your gear allready.

[Dragoon]

And we got through the 50's with out seat belt, the 80's with out child seats and a whole host of other things we got away with before.

We added each of those things because we had data about the benefits of using them.   Congress got to hear testimony on how many lives would be saved and injuries prevented.

Nobody has done squat like that for boonies as a safety item.  Sure cancer is is bad (I had a little cut off my shoulder a few years back).  But where's the evidence that adding 4 inches of brim over the back of your neck and ears for a day or two a month has any significant effect on the risk of cancer?


I predict the vast majority of CAP boonie-wearers won't wear a similar hat at the beach,  family picnics, or school field trips.  

[mikeylikey]

When NHQ comes out with a regulation that says "you can no longer roll your sleeves on your BDU's/BBDU's, I will accept the safety argument for Boonies.  Until then, please stop citing safety and skin cancer as a reason for boonies. 

[arajca]

A few years ago, the NEC approved booines as an emergency safety issue. The AF came in and told them it was not and that CAP was NOT authorized to wear the boonie hat with the AF uniforms.

[Dragoon]

When NHQ comes out with a regulation that says "you can no longer roll your sleeves on your BDU's/BBDU's, I will accept the safety argument for Boonies.  Until then, please stop citing safety and skin cancer as a reason for boonies. 

Very good point.

In CAP "safety" as it pertains to uniforms is often a codeword for either "comfort,"  "individual style," or "cheap."

Not that those things don't matter - but we need to weigh each against the costs to our mission and public image.

[Eclipse]

Safety:  Localized head / neck / ear skin cancer, sunburns and hair loss sky-rocket nationwide among CAP members over the course of several summers where due to extreme drought conditions these members had an abnormally high operations tempo in bright sunlight conditions.

NHQ safety officers are tasked with identifying the cause and a reasonable remediation.  After several months testing sunscreens, different hats, and other potential equipment, it is determined that the boonie-style hat is the most effective way to prevent sun injury and damage, and is therefore mandated for wear by >ALL< personnel, regardless of uniform worn, in any circumstance where the weather is forecast over a specific temperature, exposure index, and length of outdoor duty time.  Further, any members reporting for duty without the required gear will be prohibited from participating.


CAP: "We saw these floppies hats the SF guys wear in the movies and want to wear them ourselves, we need a good excuse, so we'll pretend they are safer in the sun, but we won't try and make them mandatory for everyone because then we know they will be denied, plus we don't want everyone to have them because then ours won't be as cool.  Also, we know if there are too many rules, then it'll be too hard to "accidentally" wear them to unit meetings, encampments, and other places they are prohibited. 

We'll continue to beat the safety drum, though, because it deflects the argument into an irrelevant area."

[wuzafuzz]

Sunscreen isn't the cure-all some are presenting it to be.  It's difficult to get into all the nooks and crannies on your ears, and it comes off if you work hard and sweat.  Uniformity has it's place, but I have permanent sun damage to my temples thanks to inflexible uniform rules when I was a cop.  (There isn't anyplace to store spare sunscreen when you are stuck on a foot post for 12 hours at a special event.)  We finally got wide brimmed trooper hats.  I hated the things but they did serve a purpose.

To think I am at increased risk for skin cancer to satisfy someone's need for uniformity really burns me, ha ha!  As far as uniformity goes, our buffet style uniform regs have already tossed that out the window. 

I agree boonie caps look a little goofy and tend to present a poser image.  However, I wear a floppy hat when I mow the lawn, go hiking, or spend any significant time in the sunlight...except during CAP activities.  Perhaps I'll drop the cash for BBDU's so I can wear a boonie when appropriate.

Sun worshippers can wear a patrol cap if they want.  Me?  Give me a wide-brimmed cap.  If anyone calls me a wanna-be I will correct them; I am a has-been!  ;-)

[RiverAux]

Of course, anyone that is very worried about skin cancer can find a welcome spot on mission base staff.  They're always interested in bringing more people on.

[Duke Dillio]

^They always need someone to make the coffee and answer the telephone...

[arajca]

Of course, anyone that is very worried about skin cancer can find a welcome spot on mission base staff.  They're always interested in bringing more people on.

So true, so true.

^They always need someone to make the coffee and answer the telephone...

This attitude is the primary reason why.

All the ground pounder and flyboys always forget that without us "REMF's", they aren't going out. Period. So all their training and skills are for naught.

[RiverAux]

^They always need someone to make the coffee and answer the telephone...

I wasn't being flip.  CAP does have a serious shortage of qualified mission base staff.  Heck, if California (one of our biggest wings) has trouble finding qualified ICs to take missions, just what do we expect elsewhere? 

[mikeylikey]

Don't we already have like 12 different threads realting to Boonie hats?  Can we PLEASE end this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Duke Dillio]

^They always need someone to make the coffee and answer the telephone...

I wasn't being flip.  CAP does have a serious shortage of qualified mission base staff.  Heck, if California (one of our biggest wings) has trouble finding qualified ICs to take missions, just what do we expect elsewhere? 

I was trying to make a joke.  Sorry if it wasn't funny.

California has a problem with signing off qualified IC's.  There's a guy in my unit who has been waiting for a year to have the wing sign off his IC3.  He's been an IC with other agencies for years.  He's also been active in CAP ES for years.  There seems to be some sort of "good old boys" network going on or something.  I don't really know what the issue is.

BOT, I'm not buying the whole safety scenario.  I've been in CAP ES for about 15 years now and have never gotten a sunburn on my face or neck.  I attribute this to a healthy dose of the proper sunblock applied liberally in the burn areas.  I also don't expect the AF to allow us to ever wear the boonie hat with the BDU uniform.  JMO

[0]

^They always need someone to make the coffee and answer the telephone...

I wasn't being flip.  CAP does have a serious shortage of qualified mission base staff.  Heck, if California (one of our biggest wings) has trouble finding qualified ICs to take missions, just what do we expect elsewhere? 

I was trying to make a joke.  Sorry if it wasn't funny.

California has a problem with signing off qualified IC's.  There's a guy in my unit who has been waiting for a year to have the wing sign off his IC3.  He's been an IC with other agencies for years.  He's also been active in CAP ES for years.  There seems to be some sort of "good old boys" network going on or something.  I don't really know what the issue is.

That's find he's been an IC with other agencies but does he meet the CAP requirements?

[Duke Dillio]

Yup, he's been the IC for at least 10 missions that I know of working with a fully qualified IC as his mentor.  He's an ex-police chief of some sort I think.  He caused a bit of a stir down at wing which probably is the reason he hasn't been "blessed" yet.

[Stonewall]

Don't we already have like 12 different threads realting to Boonie hats?  Can we PLEASE end this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's one from last year.  A good 4 pager.

[1sgtarcherCT062]

is it possible they just dont want us wearing them because not everyone will buy them? therefore not everyone will be uniform, making any flight/squadron look sloppy.

[Eclipse]

is it possible they just dont want us wearing them because not everyone will buy them? therefore not everyone will be uniform, making any flight/squadron look sloppy.

No.

[DC]

is it possible they just dont want us wearing them because not everyone will buy them? therefore not everyone will be uniform, making any flight/squadron look sloppy.

It would be an optional item for field wear, so the only group that would need to be uniform would be individual ground teams, so I really don't think that would be an issue.

The Air Force has said before that they don't think we need the boonie because it is a 'combat' uniform item. CAP is a non-combatant organization, so we have no need for it.

[CKH405]

Some cadets in my squadron will use the Boonie hat while on SAR missions and other activities but not at our meetings and we have not been told other wise by anyone.

[DC]

You understand the restriction on boonies, they have to be blue and can only worn with CAP Corporate uniforms. If your cadets are wearing woodland BDUs they can't wear 'em.

Generally someone who is being proactive (something I believe the L2K books preach) does not wait for someone to tell them otherwise, they figure out the correct course of action and see it carried out to the best of their ability. When the correct answer is freely available there is no excuse to not do things properly.

[JayT]

Some cadets in my squadron will use the Boonie hat while on SAR missions and other activities but not at our meetings and we have not been told other wise by anyone.

Well, they're wrong, and you're wrong if you don't put a stop to it.

Find me a passage in 39-1 or any ICL that authroizes that.

I wear the blue BDUs, and I only wear the boonie in the field.

[sawgunner7]

Find me a passage in 39-1 or any ICL that authroizes that.

hmmmmm...Show me wear it says you can't? this is worse then the uniform nazis in that army over the ACU when it isent even in AR 670-1. just a MILPER

[IceNine]

39-1 Section 1-1 where it say
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear

[sawgunner7]

39-1 Section 1-1 where it say
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear

Thats what I am talking about.... I wish people in the Army could actually find regulations like people in CAP can.... Or wait know them for that matter.

[Major Carrales]

Strange, isn't it, that the vast majority of people at Corpus Christi's North beach go without any head gear, or, with a baseball cap...and survive to live another day; however there are those here that cite the need for a boonie hat (and it seems like a thread on it comes up like every two months or so) as if we have CAP Officers and Cadets dropping like flies.

Tell me, boonie people, do you wear a fedora hat with your regular clothes?  I do.  I best most wear a baseball cap...if anything (and maybe even backwards).

Let's just call it what it is.  You people want to "look cool," the safety issue for the boonie is a red herring (I'm mean, if you gonna demand bonnie hats for safety protection, why not "smoky the bear" campaign hats or pith helmets?)

I might be out of line in saying the above, however, that is my intial reaction to the posts I have read.

[IceNine]

I'm almost positive Boonie Hat does not = Kool.  So maybe there is another argument

[Major Carrales]

I'm almost positive Boonie Hat does not = Kool.  So maybe there is another argument

Really?  Then why are so many people continually bringing it up when it has been rejected by the USAF?  Why the use of "safety" in such a disingenuous way to justify something that, in their civilian ware, they do not sport?

It is obvious that the idea of boonie hats is merely one of those popular movements for uniform items that are verboten.  Much like USAF brown leather jackets.

[Hawk200]

Strange, isn't it, that the vast majority of people at Corpus Christi's North beach go without any head gear, or, with a baseball cap...and survive to live another day; however there are those here that cite the need for a boonie hat (and it seems like a thread on it comes up like every two months or so) as if we have CAP Officers and Cadets dropping like flies.

Tell me, boonie people, do you wear a fedora hat with your regular clothes?  I do.  I best most wear a baseball cap...if anything (and maybe even backwards).

Let's just call it what it is.  You people want to "look cool," the safety issue for the boonie is a red herring (I'm mean, if you gonna demand bonnie hats for safety protection, why not "smoky the bear" campaign hats or pith helmets?)

I might be out of line in saying the above, however, that is my intial reaction to the posts I have read.

I've been wearing a boonie on the flightline for the last couple of months, and I can say it does work. It will keep the sun of your ears and neck, something I didn't think about the first week, and ended up suffering from.

Would I wear a boonie hat for our ops? No, I wouldn't. Why not? Couple of reasons. One, it's not authorized. Yep, obvious reason, but there is more. Two, it took me a week for me to actually get sunburn to a point that I actually had any serious problems (actual pain and peeling). How many operations do we have that last a week, in the sun? Third, I had sunscreen available. Had I been wearing it, I wouldn't have gotten the sunburn.

As Major Carrales pointed out, how many people actually wear something similar to the boonie hat offering the same protection when not in uniform? I'm betting the list of people that do is a lot smaller than the list of people that demand it "for the safety reasons".

I wouldn't mind the option of one. But for now, I'm not going to bother having one in my car "at the ready". It's been disapproved, we need to quit complaining about it, and adapt as necessary.

[RiverAux]

As Major Carrales pointed out, how many people actually wear something similar to the boonie hat offering the same protection when not in uniform? I'm betting the list of people that do is a lot smaller than the list of people that demand it "for the safety reasons".

Never seen any of the guys working for the FBO wearing one and never seen anyone that works in the woods for a living wearing one either.  Quite frankly I'm not sure that isn't because it doesn't help protect you from the sun, its the fact that they are just incredibly goofy looking hats and no one really wants to be caught dead in one. 

[Eclipse]

Photos like these: 

Are the only reason people want to wear boonie hats, of course we also have cadets doing SAR work who paint their faces in camouflage.   

Any safety arguments are retcon excuses designed to distract.

The boonie hat was introduced to the U.S. military during the Vietnam War, when U.S. Army Green Berets began wearing them in the field, along with Australian and ARVN units.[1] These tigerstripe boonie hats were locally procured, the tiger stripe camo cloth was usually salvaged from other uniform items or made up by the tailor. In 1967, the US Army began issuing boonie hats, as the "Hat, Jungle, with Insect Net", made of cotton and wind-resistant poplin, in olive drab, tigerstripe, and M65 ERDL.[2] It was meant to supplement and replace the fatigue hats and baseball style caps that had been in service since World War II. While it was liked by troops in the field, it was scorned as slovenly by spit and polish officers such as Creighton Abrams.[3] As the U.S. military evolved away from a garrison mentality, the boonie found a permanent place as part of the uniform of all services. The boonie has changed little through the decades since Vietnam and is still in use in Iraq and Afghanistan as an alternative to the Patrol cap. The U.S. Military boonie hat has come in a variety of camouflage patterns; the current assortment includes US M81 woodland, three-color desert, ACUPAT, and both desert and woodland versions of MARPAT. Early issue boonie hats were olive drab.

Until this moment I never heard of Creighton Abrams, and he is now one of my heroes. 

The only reason I would even consider one is Under Armor has a really nice one in dark blue in their tactical, HeatGear line. (which, btw, are the most awesome hats ever created by man).

[DC]

As Major Carrales pointed out, how many people actually wear something similar to the boonie hat offering the same protection when not in uniform? I'm betting the list of people that do is a lot smaller than the list of people that demand it "for the safety reasons".

Never seen any of the guys working for the FBO wearing one and never seen anyone that works in the woods for a living wearing one either.  Quite frankly I'm not sure that isn't because it doesn't help protect you from the sun, its the fact that they are just incredibly goofy looking hats and no one really wants to be caught dead in one. 

That is a matter of opinion. I usually wear one when I am out in the sun, in a non-CAP capacity. I'll wear sunscreen too, but you cannot deny that it is more comfortable to have something covering you. Sunscreen will save you from the sunburn, but not heat. As a Floridian, I am used to both heat and sunburn, but I don't like either, and would be happy to have a uniform option that prevented/helped with both. I won't say that wearing a boonie is going to make a significant difference in whether I develop skin cancer or not, but it will make the life of anyone in the sun more comfortable.

I really don't see what all the fuss with the AF is about with us not wearing the boonie. It is a 'combat item', so are BDUs, web gear, tac vests, and any other number of things CAP Ground Teams wear. It is a hat for crying out loud, a few ounces of cloth that goes on your head. I really don't think people wearing it to meetings will be an issue, as long as it is clearly stated in 39-1 (or the ICL, really  ) That is is strictly for field use, and at that only at the discretion of the Activity Commander/GTL. If people get off their FPOC and actually bother to enforce uniform regulations, this would not be an issue.

[JayT]

I really don't see what all the fuss with the AF is about with us not wearing the boonie. It is a 'combat item', so are BDUs, web gear, tac vests, and any other number of things CAP Ground Teams wear. It is a hat for crying out loud, a few ounces of cloth that goes on your head. I really don't think people wearing it to meetings will be an issue, as long as it is clearly stated in 39-1 (or the ICL, really  ) That is is strictly for field use, and at that only at the discretion of the Activity Commander/GTL. If people get off their FPOC and actually bother to enforce uniform regulations, this would not be an issue.

Since when are BDU's 'combat items?'

Infact, show me a reguations that says anything about 'combat items.'

[Hawk200]

I really don't see what all the fuss with the AF is about with us not wearing the boonie. It is a 'combat item', so are BDUs, web gear, tac vests, and any other number of things CAP Ground Teams wear. It is a hat for crying out loud, a few ounces of cloth that goes on your head. I really don't think people wearing it to meetings will be an issue, as long as it is clearly stated in 39-1 (or the ICL, really  ) That is is strictly for field use, and at that only at the discretion of the Activity Commander/GTL. If people get off their FPOC and actually bother to enforce uniform regulations, this would not be an issue.

Since when are BDU's 'combat items?'

Infact, show me a reguations that says anything about 'combat items.'

The Air Force has referred to the boonie as a "combat item". It may sound idiotic, but in one of the factsheets on the ABU, the Air Force referred to it as a "weapon system". It's not about our regs, it's about what the Air Force calls it, even if it's not written in one of their actual regs.

It would have been smarter for the AF Powers That Be to have simply told us "no". The "combat item" justification is pretty flimsy. The boonie is a rather hotly contested item in any branch of service it seems.

[Climbnsink]

I don't care about wearing a boonie with a CAP uniform.  But I do wear them all the time outside.   In my opinion they're great in the sun.  Also take a look around a gliderport and all the funny old men will be wearing short brimmed boonie hats(the big ones block too much sky/traffic) there is a reason glider pilots wear em.   

[lordmonar]

Strange, isn't it, that the vast majority of people at Corpus Christi's North beach go without any head gear, or, with a baseball cap...and survive to live another day; however there are those here that cite the need for a boonie hat (and it seems like a thread on it comes up like every two months or so) as if we have CAP Officers and Cadets dropping like flies.

Tell me, boonie people, do you wear a fedora hat with your regular clothes?  I do.  I best most wear a baseball cap...if anything (and maybe even backwards).

Let's just call it what it is.  You people want to "look cool," the safety issue for the boonie is a red herring (I'm mean, if you gonna demand bonnie hats for safety protection, why not "smoky the bear" campaign hats or pith helmets?)

I might be out of line in saying the above, however, that is my intial reaction to the posts I have read.

Strange that anytime anyone suggests a uniform change we get guys who come out of the wood work and accuse us of being Posers.

Reality is somewhere in between.  So let us just stop with those ad homid (sp?) attacks.

Bottom line....the are not authorised....they should be....but until they do I'll not wear one.

[Eclipse]

ad hominem

[DC]

I really don't see what all the fuss with the AF is about with us not wearing the boonie. It is a 'combat item', so are BDUs, web gear, tac vests, and any other number of things CAP Ground Teams wear. It is a hat for crying out loud, a few ounces of cloth that goes on your head. I really don't think people wearing it to meetings will be an issue, as long as it is clearly stated in 39-1 (or the ICL, really  ) That is is strictly for field use, and at that only at the discretion of the Activity Commander/GTL. If people get off their FPOC and actually bother to enforce uniform regulations, this would not be an issue.

Since when are BDU's 'combat items?'

Infact, show me a reguations that says anything about 'combat items.'

Will you find a document calling BDUs a combat item or a weapon system? No, probably not. However, it is a combat uniform, designed with the specific purpose of being worn by military personnel in combat. How is the boonie more of a combat item than a patrol cap?

If we were asking to wear Kevlar, I'd understand, we have no need for it, but a simple wide-brimed hat that is just as useful to a CAP GTM on a REDCAP as it is to an Airman in Iraq, I don't understand...

[RiverAux]

Will you find a document calling BDUs a combat item or a weapon system?

BATTLE Dress Uniform

[Hawk200]

If we were asking to wear Kevlar, I'd understand, we have no need for it, but a simple wide-brimed hat that is just as useful to a CAP GTM on a REDCAP as it is to an Airman in Iraq, I don't understand...

There's all kind of possibilities as to their reasons. Someone said "no". Until the person that did is honest as to the reasons, we will never know. Try not to worry about it, there enough stressed out GI's out there that are slowly going crazy over it. We don't need everyone in the country going bugnuts trying to figure out the military's reasoning.

[Hawk200]

Will you find a document calling BDUs a combat item or a weapon system?

BATTLE Dress Uniform

Good point. Most people don't know it, but a lot of the initial correspondance on the BDU referred to it as a "Battle Dress Utility", not "uniform". It was treated more as gear than clothing.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Are we still talking about this nonsense?

The Army, and to the best of my knowledge, the Air Force, do NOT authorize the bush hat for their own troops in the US.  Why in the world would the AF authorize them for CAP troops in the US?

I wore a bush hat in Vietnam (which got lost when I DEROS'ed) and I wore one in Honduras, (Which I still have).

And... yes, the sun IS hotter in the tropics.

[BillB]

Darn,  I thought it was BAGGY Dress Uniform, at least on some people it is.

[flyerthom]

Strange, isn't it, that the vast majority of people at Corpus Christi's North beach go without any head gear, or, with a baseball cap...and survive to live another day; however there are those here that cite the need for a boonie hat (and it seems like a thread on it comes up like every two months or so) as if we have CAP Officers and Cadets dropping like flies.

Tell me, boonie people, do you wear a fedora hat with your regular clothes?  I do.  I best most wear a baseball cap...if anything (and maybe even backwards).

Let's just call it what it is.  You people want to "look cool," the safety issue for the boonie is a red herring (I'm mean, if you gonna demand bonnie hats for safety protection, why not "smoky the bear" campaign hats or pith helmets?)

I might be out of line in saying the above, however, that is my intial reaction to the posts I have read.

Strange that anytime anyone suggests a uniform change we get guys who come out of the wood work and accuse us of being Posers.

Reality is somewhere in between.  So let us just stop with those ad homid (sp?) attacks.

Bottom line....the are not authorised....they should be....but until they do I'll not wear one.

It was stated in an HSO seminar that they were approved for field use. However until I see it on paper I wouldn't spend any money.

(besides that - Calvary stetsons are way cooler  )

[Eclipse]

It was stated in an HSO seminar that they were approved for field use. However until I see it on paper I wouldn't spend any money.

To see it on paper you'd have to print the 01 APR 08 ICL rollup memo from the (then) iCC, its there, for better or worse.

[McAllister]

I'm surprised boonie hats haven't been authorized yet. Don't you think they should have had them authorized from the get-go?

[Eclipse]

                                                                                              no

[Rotorhead]

(besides that - Calvary stetsons are way cooler  )

That's CAVALRY, son. It's Air Cav, not Air Cal.

Calvary is the hill from the Bible.

[FW]

(besides that - Calvary stetsons are way cooler  )

That's CAVALRY, son. It's Air Cav, not Air Cal.

I think we should authorize Cavalry Stetsons (and kickers) for field use.  

[DogCollar]

(besides that - Calvary stetsons are way cooler  )

That's CAVALRY, son. It's Air Cav, not Air Cal.

Calvary is the hill from the Bible.

Are Chaplains authorized to wear a Calvary Stetson? :angel: :angel:

[flyerthom]

(besides that - Calvary stetsons are way cooler  )

That's CAVALRY, son. It's Air Cav, not Air Cal.

Calvary is the hill from the Bible.

I wuz hung by moxilla's spill chicker!

[DC]

(besides that - Calvary stetsons are way cooler  )

That's CAVALRY, son. It's Air Cav, not Air Cal.

Calvary is the hill from the Bible.

I wuz hung by moxilla's spill chicker!

[♠SARKID♠]

I'm surprised boonie hats haven't been authorized yet. Don't you think they should have had them authorized from the get-go?

negative

[AlphaSigOU]

I'm surprised boonie hats haven't been authorized yet. Don't you think they should have had them authorized from the get-go?

No, nein, non, nyet, iie! Ain't gonna happen, fuhgeddaboudit!  I can see it being used out in the field, but as a replacement to a patrol or ball cap for in-garrison wear, no way!

[lordmonar]

I think that, that is what McAllister was suggesting.

I too wonder why the USAF was so adamant about not allowing us to wear the boonie hat.  But IIRC they were adamant about not allowing us Gortex as well and that changed.