Interoperability in large missions

[CommGeek]

I dont understand why most CAP Comm types have issues about talking to other agencies...  The fact is if we want to play in the sandbox with the big kids we have to step up to the plate and increase our Comm training and equipment to do so.  The typical CAP Comm course talks about talking to ourselves...doesn't mention interoperability with other agencies.  What can we do to open the eyes of CAP members to realize that we HAVE TO be able to talk to others.?Especially if we can not share our freq's, we must be able to use their (other agencies) freqs to communicate!

If you look at any other volunteer agency..Red Cross, Salvation Army, Christan Contractors Association...and so on...  they all have interoperable radios and some type of satellite based internet.   Its pretty sad when a small church pulls up and they have more capability to communicate than we do!

CAP is stuck in the dark ages!  We need to seriously reevaluate our comms system, we HAVE to have more capabilities when we are deployed....or we will slowly fade away into nothing.

We talk a big game about comms and technology....but in reality we are at the very bottom of the totem pole....we need to act before we get buried!

[ammotrucker]

There are a few dozen channels that are reserved for wing specific programming. With the removal of the wide band channels, I think even more will be available. IT IS UP TO YOUR WING DC TO DETERMINE WHAT IS PROGRAMMED INTO THESE CHANNELS. Unless needs are made known, how the heck is the DC supposed to know what members need?!

I understand that there may be channels that may be incorporated into the band plan that each Wing is alloted, but how do you know until you arrive at the location which are the correct ones.  I still believe that we need the availability to program on the fly. 

I understand that if it is outside of the normal realm of CAP we would need to secure the additional radios from outside sources.  It just seems that everyone that respond to this post believes that we operate OUTSIDE the realm of any guidance while doing missions in DR related activities.  We do photo missions  for post disaster related photographs!  But in this State they are directed from the State EOC, yes we have a team at the State to accept these missions.  But, I know that we will get tasked with missions during this time frame.

I believe that we have a need for 800 Mhz, UHF upper and lower bands, additional VHF (non-amatuer) radios (portables and mobiles), and HF all of which should be available for reprogramming when needed. 

We need to be able to get the freqs to other agencies when needed, not after a 2  or 3 day wait from National to agree.  How do you employ a airbourne repeater  if only you have the availabity to transmit or receive on the the freq.  How do you try to explain to other agencies that are freqs are FOUO when there fregs are also yet there have the option in an emergency allowed with a sebsequent release that the freqs will be deleted after the event. (WOULD BE MONITERED DELETION).  We are intentionally placing this organization in a position of NOT wanting to be interoperable. 

It is amazing that I can talk to the FBI, FEMA, FLANG, FANG, and other agencies that have FOUO freqs but not I can not allow then access to CAP, because we take the FOUO a little to far. 

[Thom]

There are a few dozen channels that are reserved for wing specific programming. With the removal of the wide band channels, I think even more will be available. IT IS UP TO YOUR WING DC TO DETERMINE WHAT IS PROGRAMMED INTO THESE CHANNELS. Unless needs are made known, how the heck is the DC supposed to know what members need?!

I understand that there may be channels that may be incorporated into the band plan that each Wing is alloted, but how do you know until you arrive at the location which are the correct ones.  I still believe that we need the availability to program on the fly. 

I understand that if it is outside of the normal realm of CAP we would need to secure the additional radios from outside sources.  It just seems that everyone that respond to this post believes that we operate OUTSIDE the realm of any guidance while doing missions in DR related activities.  We do photo missions  for post disaster related photographs!  But in this State they are directed from the State EOC, yes we have a team at the State to accept these missions.  But, I know that we will get tasked with missions during this time frame.

I believe that we have a need for 800 Mhz, UHF upper and lower bands, additional VHF (non-amatuer) radios (portables and mobiles), and HF all of which should be available for reprogramming when needed. 

We need to be able to get the freqs to other agencies when needed, not after a 2  or 3 day wait from National to agree.  How do you employ a airbourne repeater  if only you have the availabity to transmit or receive on the the freq.  How do you try to explain to other agencies that are freqs are FOUO when there fregs are also yet there have the option in an emergency allowed with a sebsequent release that the freqs will be deleted after the event. (WOULD BE MONITERED DELETION).  We are intentionally placing this organization in a position of NOT wanting to be interoperable. 

It is amazing that I can talk to the FBI, FEMA, FLANG, FANG, and other agencies that have FOUO freqs but not I can not allow then access to CAP, because we take the FOUO a little to far.

I tend to agree with you on most points, although I will point out that the gulf between NEEDING UHF, etc. radios, and being able to AFFORD UHF, etc. radios makes the Pacific look like a backyard pond.

BUT, railing about this here will make no real difference.

If you have a worthy idea, preferably a usable plan, to remedy the shortcomings of CAP, package it up and send it up through your chain of command.  Via your Wing or Region Commander it can then make its way to the NB/NEC which can then act upon it and make real changes to the way CAP operates.

I didn't say it was easy, but it is relatively simple.

Thom

[arajca]

Each state should have an interoperability comm plan. Check it out. Remember, your wing comm staff (and various others) have just completed one of the largest projects in CAP's history. The fact that they haven't been able to do everything any member thinks they should have needs to keep in mind that they are volunteers like the rest of the members and only have a limited amount of time for CAP. Everyone sets priorities for how they use their time, and they do not always match what someone else may think. For many involved with the transition and repeater replacement, it was almost a full time job in itself.

For those involved on public safety/emergency management communications, how have you helped CAP with interop communications? Do you just complain about CAP not being able to hand out our frequencies? Not having the 'right' channels programmed in their radios? Not talking to other agencies? Not having the latest and greatest new radios available? Not having field programmable equipment? Have you offered to help resolve the issues? I am positive most wing DC's would welcome your assistance.

[wuzafuzz]

I disagree with a lot of what is being said here.  It is obvious that most of the CAP Wings must not have agreements to work with the State EOC's ,being at a recent comm event here  some have stated that individuals would not need interoperable radio and only LO or IC would interface.  That is a croc of S?&t seeing as ALL and I repeat ALL ground personnel had to have a safety radio, WHICH IS NOT IN ARE (CAP) PROGRAMMING. 

So add that channel to our CAP programming.  Do the research, obtain necessary permissions, and talk to your DC.  If it's not VHF, well CAP might not be invited to play.  Or there might be cache radios available if it's a disaster (depending on your state).

Exactly which part of using LO's to coordinate activities is a crock?  Short of possessing magical radios we would be heavily reliant on liaison people.  LO's should be gonig 200 MPH anyway if we are working with others.

From what I have seen from this event and others that I have participated in we will more likely be asked to step aside, because of the fact that we CAN NOT interact with othere agencies.  This is a sad state of affairs, seeing as how we bill as one of the best communications networks around.

It CAN work without everyone on the same channels. I've been there done that...at incidents large and small.  It sure is nice to have interoperable radios, but absent that the Earth keeps spinning. 

I already addressed the need for pre-planning and even some creativity.  Those can overcome some technology issues, and will be necessary in our future.  Seriously, what are the chances of CAP being provided field programmable liaison radios on every possible public safety band, and distributing those to every member with a possible need?  Or having readily available systems to patch our VHF comms to other systems? 

I see CAP as lacking.  We need interoperable radio, we need the options for reprograming to other agency freq's, we need to be allowed to hand out our freq's to agencies that we are servicing.  This is my opinion

I'll be the first to agree our FOUO take on frequencies is unnecessarily limiting.  It keeps us from monitoring each other, at a minimum, so we can communicate.  We used to do that all the time when I worked for a sheriff's dept on UHF, for talking to the local city cops on VHF.  It worked great.  Low budget too.  On the bright side, any reasonably savvy comm planner can figure out our secret squirrel stuff (excepting encryption, when we go there) in short order.  It'll be all over the Internet before long.

Having said all that:
We definitely need more radios in more hands.  VHF radios first, so we can talk to each other before chasing the technological masterpiece we'd all like. 

I miss the good old days when most everyone was on the same band.  It sure was easier for mutual aid.  But when agencies started fracturing off into different bands and system types, we still managed to work together.

[ammotrucker]

I disagree with a lot of what is being said here.  It is obvious that most of the CAP Wings must not have agreements to work with the State EOC's ,being at a recent comm event here  some have stated that individuals would not need interoperable radio and only LO or IC would interface.  That is a croc of S?&t seeing as ALL and I repeat ALL ground personnel had to have a safety radio, WHICH IS NOT IN ARE (CAP) PROGRAMMING. 

So add that channel to our CAP programming.  Do the research, obtain necessary permissions, and talk to your DC.  If it's not VHF, well CAP might not be invited to play.  Or there might be cache radios available if it's a disaster (depending on your state).

Exactly which part of using LO's to coordinate activities is a crock?  Short of possessing magical radios we would be heavily reliant on liaison people.  LO's should be gonig 200 MPH anyway if we are working with others.

First I was stating that all ground personel were required to have a safety radio.  I was not meaning to imply that the LO would not be running around at over 200 mph.  I was just stating the fact a minimal costing VHF portable needs to be available to all members at some bases.  It would not have to be NTIA compliant

Secondly, I would never purpose that all members be handed out every radio listed in this above thread.  That is unrealitic and cost prohitive.  But, a Wing should be able to supply each group with the neccesary tools weather funded by CAP/HQ or by WG/HQ or by secondary grants.

I believe that there should be a way that AT-RISK Wings with or without groups should have available radio equipment to manage the mission in disaster relief.  In the format that we currently have I feel that it can not happen.  Weather we as members want it to happen or are respective Wings bill it to happen. 

[Slim]

In my experience, if there is a need for interoperable radios, they will be there and available.  I've yet to see a mobile incident command post that didn't have a cache of radios to be made available, especially considering all of the communications deficiencies brought to light on 9/11/01.  Even our wing MCP has a cache of CAP VHF radios available.  We also have capability to operate on our statewide 800 MHz trunked system via several handheld radios in the MCP or in the hands of key wing staff officers.  We also, as part of our wing-specific bank, have the statewide interop VHF frequencies for both police and fire available to us.

Trunked radio systems are a different breed altogether, and they aren't necessarily limited to 800 MHz either.  The federal government is already using trunking systems on both VHF and 400 MHz bands.  It's not like you can just pull a radio out of the box, program the frequencies, and talk.  The radio has to be authorized by a system administrator to even access the system, and have a radio specific ID number assigned to it before the end-user can use it.  Think of a trunked radio as being the same as a cell phone (in fact, a lot of the technology is the same between the two).  You can't just buy a cell phone, take it out of the box and start talking.  It has to be activated by your carrier first.  In the case of a trunked radio, the carrier is the agency that owns the system.

In a real-world incident, what would most likely happen is that a CAP radio station would be set up in a command post, with a CAP MRO who would pass traffic and taskings from the incident commander, via the CAP agency liaison officer.  We don't necessarily need to talk to the big boys directly, we just need to be able to talk to the EOC/command post, etc.  If there was a need for us to be able to talk directly to them, radios would most likely be provided to those who need them

[cap235629]

In a real-world incident, what would most likely happen is that a CAP radio station would be set up in a command post, with a CAP MRO who would pass traffic and taskings from the incident commander, via the CAP agency liaison officer.  We don't necessarily need to talk to the big boys directly, we just need to be able to talk to the EOC/command post, etc.  If there was a need for us to be able to talk directly to them, radios would most likely be provided to those who need them

That is precisely why we have RDP's.  I also constructed a VHF homebrew RDP using a good sized toolbox and various parts I had lying around the house.  In the past we had to take the radio from the squadron headquarters and MY mag mount antenna and set up in the CP when we are working with local agencies.  As a result I petitioned the Wing DC for another power supply and radio and solved the problem.  If you can justify it, you can have it, that is what the gear is for.

The VHF homebrew RDP has the ability to run on 12V DC or throw a switch and run off of the power supply.  It has a 100 foot coax extension, a 15 foot mag mount and a 15 foot pole mount that attaches to our mast kit. I also installed a 3 way 12v accessory socket to charge cell phones (became an issue on last large op)

Some day I will get around to posting pics.........

[CommGeek]

Number One Fatal Error on interop communications is assuming that another agency will let you 'Borrow" a radio.

If everyone used the above as thier source of interop radios, knobody would have any equipment becouse they would  be under the false impression that somone else would have a raido for them.

If you dont own the equipment and bring the equipment to the event it dosent exist.

It may have worked in the past...but if you count on it next time your just shooting yourself in the foot.

In a large event gaining access to a trunked system is no big deal. It only takes a few min to program a new radio into the system. ( I do it every day, on the State Wide Trunked System).

[wuzafuzz]

Number One Fatal Error on interop communications is assuming that another agency will let you 'Borrow" a radio.

If everyone used the above as thier source of interop radios, knobody would have any equipment becouse they would  be under the false impression that somone else would have a raido for them.

If you dont own the equipment and bring the equipment to the event it dosent exist.

It may have worked in the past...but if you count on it next time your just shooting yourself in the foot.

In a large event gaining access to a trunked system is no big deal. It only takes a few min to program a new radio into the system. ( I do it every day, on the State Wide Trunked System).

OK, you have rejected many of our statements, even those based on our experiences.  It would appear what has worked in our locations hasn't worked for you.  Obviously you have some ideas.  So...what do you suggest we actually do?  How do we do it?  How do we PAY for it?

[Nick]

In a large event gaining access to a trunked system is no big deal. It only takes a few min to program a new radio into the system. ( I do it every day, on the State Wide Trunked System).

That's fine and dandy, assuming you have a Motorola 800 MHz SmartNet radio.  Or a M/A-COM Harris 900 MHz EDACS radio with ProVoice.  Or whatever kind of radio that works with the local trunked system.

1) Not all states have state-wide trunked systems.  Texas is one of 'em.  I need at least 5 (yes, 5) disparate radios just to access all the systems around the state, ranging from $3000-5000 a piece.  And that's not mentioning the conventional freqs that get stacked into trunked radios to keep the number down.

2) If you plan on any kind of interoperability without the need for item 1, then the host systems need to be P25 compliant.  Many aren't.  Even then, you need a radio to cover each band (700/800/900, and 400 if you want to get into Federal-land).

3) What if the agency owning the host system is using encryption and your radio doesn't have the encryption option?

4) What if you bring in one type of radio that will work with the system (say they're using SmartNet) but have a radio they don't support (let's say an EF Johnson 5100 ES).  Who's going to program it if they don't release system keys?

There's a whole slew of what-if's when you get into the "I have a catch-all radio cache in my trunk" approach.  The ideal approach is that everyone is P25 compliant.  The realistic approach is that you can expect to either 1) pre-stage exchange radios, 2) pre-populate radio channel plans, or 3) beg for a radio when you show up.

Historical Disclaimer: 10 years in public safety communications in which I deployed a 350-square mile coverage, 855-subscriber trunked radio system, and developed my agency's communications interoperability plan with 15 agencies throughout the metropolitan area.

[Slim]

Number One Fatal Error on interop communications is assuming that another agency will let you 'Borrow" a radio.

If everyone used the above as thier source of interop radios, knobody would have any equipment becouse they would  be under the false impression that somone else would have a raido for them.

If you dont own the equipment and bring the equipment to the event it dosent exist.

It may have worked in the past...but if you count on it next time your just shooting yourself in the foot.

In a large event gaining access to a trunked system is no big deal. It only takes a few min to program a new radio into the system. ( I do it every day, on the State Wide Trunked System).

Ok, pointed question, if your anonymity will allow you to answer.  What state do you work for?

In Michigan, radio techs who service the MPSCS work at the network control center in Lansing.  If an incident in Houghton, MI (about 500 miles and 12 hours drive north of Lansing) needs more radios in a hurry, who's going to handle that?  A fast-paced incident will be long over before they could probably get a tech into the shop to program them, let alone get them to where they're needed.  Next problem, the NCC doesn't have boxes of $5000 portable radios just laying around the shop to program.  When an agency joins the system, they purchase the radios from Motorola or another approved vendor, who ships the equipment to the shop.  The shop programs them to the customers specs, activates them, then ships them to the agency.  Ohbytheway, those agencies pay a minimum of $200 per year, per radio for connection fees to access the system.  And, in order to be authorized to use the system, every user (cop, firefighter, medic, DPW worker, etc) must attend a 6 HOUR training class to learn how to use the equipment.

My county uses a Harris OpenSky system (don't even get me started on what a colossal disaster this has been), and uses the same procedure.  Agency joins the system, buys the radios, they go to the shop for programming/activation, then go to the agency, the users receive training (again, 6 hours, I'm in the process of going through the TTT course for it) before they can go live.  No stockpile of equipment in the shop for contingencies.  A lot of agencies in the county don't plan to join this system for many reasons, political, system coverage, or cost.  My agency, a utility model private EMS service, doesn't plan on full-scale deployment on this system due to cost.  We'll have limited access for ambulance-to-hospital comms, and MABAS mutual aid talkgroups, but only 8 radios (we have 30 ambulances in our fleet).  We also have access to the state system for contingency response through our region bioterrorism response network (12 portables and a base station in our dispatch center).

Both agencies maintain stockpiles of programmed/activated radios in their mobile command vehicles and at key locations (state police posts and substations) to deploy if needed on large incidents. 

Mind you, this is for public safety.  I don't anticipate a CAP ground team leader being handed a $5000 radio to use for an incident.  Every large-scale CAP response I've been involved in (from assisting my fire dept with a lost person SAR, to a multi-agency response to an airliner crash), has involved CAP teams using their own radios to communicate with a CAP ALO located in the main EOC/CP.

What do ARES/RACES teams use to communicate when they support an incident?  Does an agency give them radios to talk to the command post?  No, they use their own equipment to talk to an ARES/RACES operator located in the EOC/CP.

[CommGeek]

I work for Florida.   Why do we need to do trunked? We Don't!  Every band (UHF Low & Hi , VHF Low & Hi ,700,  800) all have there own nationwide conventional Mutual aid channels.  (Refer to the NIFOG)  All we need is a radio in each band, and a gateway (ACU-1000, ACU-M, Sytek) and we are set.  That way we can communicate to anyone!
We cant give out our freqs?  Well fine...give us yours and we will patch you to our system.   Any smart comm manager should have programmed the MA channels in their radios.

You are correct with trunking...You have to register the radio on the system...We use a Harris/Ma-Com System. Ours is too controlled by a Central Control center or NOC.  IT takes about 5 min to get the LID of the radio to register with the NOC.  Is this an ideal way to handle interoperability...NO.. But we are able to do it if needed.

So how does CAP get a radio in each band and a audio gateway to patch to? Good question? We need to think outside the box to make it happen.  How do we coordinate so other agencies can use our airborne repeaters?  We are one of very few organizations who have the capability...we advertise it... but we cant give the freq out  so others may use it...Wasted resource!

All I meant to get as is we need to think outside the box and get out of the mentality that we only need to talk to ourselves......

[Nick]

Why do we need to do trunked? We Don't!

I agree 100%.  Trunking is great for multi-agency large-scale events and networked trunked systems are great for wide-area communication, but during a disaster (like, a hurricane or tornado) you'll be doing good if the trunking system is even up and running.  If it withstands the initial disaster but there's a widespread power outage, someone's gotta keep gas in the generator.

With respect to a CAP comm capability, I'm all for taking a couple ACU-Ts with three handhelds (one VHF, one UHF, one 800 MHz) tuned to a VTAC, UTAC and 8TAC channel, sticking them in a few C172s and rotate sending them up as high-birds.  If there's any interagency communication to be had, there's your fix.

Problem is, I don't think the NPSPAC channels are advertised and utilized nearly as much as they should be.  As soon as they were released, I had them in my agency's radios.  I was hard pressed to find any other agency in the area that was using them up until the time I moved (July '09).

[CommGeek]

I agree.  We have a hard time getting the  NPSPAC  channels as the standard. 

Ok...  anybody want to Volunteer their ACU-T to demo?

Im working on a low cost ($500) or so VOIP app to be used in place of an ACU.  It should do the same thing, for one tenth the cost.   When I get it up if anyone want to help test, let me know.

I like the idea of putting the gateway in the a/c.  Smart!

[Gunner C]

Is VOIP going to work in a large scale disaster such as a hurricane or earthquake?  Phones and broadband are toast when power is cut.

[Nick]

I think CommGeek's idea here is more VoIP just as a protocol to mix the voice traffic, not actually long-haul VoIP like Skype or other commercial solutions.  Take a laptop computer with a USB interface to the audio in/out/PTT on a handheld radio, do some software-based audio mixing, and you have a RoIP gateway.

[CommGeek]

I think CommGeek's idea here is more VoIP just as a protocol to mix the voice traffic, not actually long-haul VoIP like Skype or other commercial solutions.  Take a laptop computer with a USB interface to the audio in/out/PTT on a handheld radio, do some software-based audio mixing, and you have a RoIP gateway.

Your right on the money!

It could be used as a nation wide system...as long as the network is up.  Link all the repeaters in the Wing??

Is VOIP going to work in a large scale disaster such as a hurricane or earthquake?  Phones and broadband are toast when power is cut.

One more reason why CAP should consider Satellite internet.....
You can get a decent shared system dedicated for EM type users for $3,500 plus $1,700 a year service   1.5 Down  512 up

[heliodoc]

Isn't this about thesame amont of money CAP has spent for all of its 64 iterations of eServices??

There "got" to be plenty-o-dough in the CAP kitty for all sorts of interop commo

Plenty of CAP money being piddled away elsewhere... 'bout time CAP get with the program of interop anyways for all the CAPers wanting thise DHS HLS missions

Whadddya think..  DHS, HLS, FEMA, and EM types are center there world around CAP missions??

CAP OUGHT to wrap its heads and arms around who is going to drive the missions...more ti the ES world than SAREX's!!

[PHall]

Is VOIP going to work in a large scale disaster such as a hurricane or earthquake?  Phones and broadband are toast when power is cut.

Phones should have power if the cables are intact. The telephone system, including the switch, is always on battery power. (48vdc)

The commercial power runs the trickle charger that keeps the batteries charged and there is always a diesel generator available which will come on-line if they lose commercial power for more then 30 minutes.

The fiber optic hut in the field where the telephone signal switches from the fiber back to the copper cable has batteries on site that will keep it running for a minimum of 48 hours.

Most cell site have batteries too.

This is why if you use cordless phones in your house you may want to have a simple, cheap telephone available.
When you lose power to your house the cordless goes out too since the base station needs power. But, plug in the "regular" phone and you're back in business.

Your VOIP will work as long as you have back up power for the DSL modem and the computer.