Comm - How to talk with event organizers at Airshows

[Eclipse]

We have our secret squirrel frequencies that we cant share but if you need to know Google them. 

Cite, please...

[RiverAux]

We have our secret squirrel frequencies that we cant share but if you need to know Google them. 

Cite, please...

http://www.google.com

[Eclipse]

Um, no - the sites where our frequencies are posted. Saying you can Google for them, and actually presenting sites with that information are two different things.

[JoeTomasone]

I don't see this as a very big issue in SPECIFICALLY supporting NON ES type activities (which again CAP doesn't support radio comm wise anyways by Table of Allowance authorizations & funding), especially community events, that CAP is helping with & there is an offer by the "customer" to provide the radio communications equipment.   

Like I said, if you want to ignore regs and do what you want to do, that's your business.

One has to balance off the unreimbursed total cost of obtaining & controlling all those CAP portable radio assets with readily available local alternatives.

You are 100% correct.  They call those who do that "Command".  Command, unfortunately, appears not to agree with that sentiment.

[JoeTomasone]

Besides, CAP shouldn't be doing anything related to air shows either.  When I was Squadron and Group Commander I forbid participation in air shows other than a recruiting booth or such.  No parking cars or airplanes or what ever.  That is not our mission either. Other than recruiting air shows serve no purpose for CAP.   And I think personally that air shows have no purpose period. 

The local Group has supported the local base at their airshow for years.   No parking duties, mostly assistance with ensuring that the crowd does not approach the restricted static aircraft, acting as eyes for any issues (mostly medical), etc.    They work mostly hand-in-hand with the USAF folks, and it's a great relationship builder for both.    I think this was a large part of the reason that USAF gave the Squadron that meets on base a very nice (and much upgraded) building of their own to meet in.

[Eclipse]

Besides, CAP shouldn't be doing anything related to air shows either.  When I was Squadron and Group Commander I forbid participation in air shows other than a recruiting booth or such.  No parking cars or airplanes or what ever.  That is not our mission either. Other than recruiting air shows serve no purpose for CAP.   And I think personally that air shows have no purpose period.

Its called being a part of the community.  In many case providing extra hands for pancake breakfasts, fly-ins, or the local county fair is the only tangible way a unit can "give back" for all the resources airports and cities provide.

They are also "fun", and fun in a way which is directly relate-able to our core missions of service before self and aerospace education.

[a2capt]

Besides, CAP shouldn't be doing anything related to air shows either.  When I was Squadron and Group Commander I forbid participation in air shows other than a recruiting booth or such.  No parking cars or airplanes or what ever.  That is not our mission either. Other than recruiting air shows serve no purpose for CAP.   And I think personally that air shows have no purpose period.

"Contrarian and Curmudgeon at Large" ... and I'm sure glad as heck that you were not anywhere near us with that attitude.

Other than parking cars, which doesn't serve in our best interests, helping with air shows is just plane fun. The cadets eat it up, and we as a program and organization get exposure.

We get a fleet of ISRs and we send them out with cadets in pairs, when they are not the ones performing a particular duty, they can roam the displays and the whole thing works in rotations of an hour or two max so that everyone gets to work and play. 

Whats a blast is when you're the only ones out there and the B-17 wing goes over your head on it's way to the taxiway. That just kicks ass and makes getting up at 5AM and corralling a flight of cadets and getting a vehicle caravan together all the more worth it.

[JoeTomasone]

Whats a blast is when you're the only ones out there and the B-17 wing goes over your head on it's way to the taxiway. That just kicks ass and makes getting up at 5AM and corralling a flight of cadets and getting a vehicle caravan together all the more worth it.

The cadets who got to help marshall the Thunderbirds out of the hangar at the last air show soooo hated that detail.     

[RRLE]

Um, no - the sites where our frequencies are posted. Saying you can Google for them, and actually presenting sites with that information are two different things.

Try this.

[N Harmon]

Just curious, but what about this:

For liaison communications between CAP and a Ham radio group, designate two frequencies: A CAP frequency and a Ham radio frequency. The CAP communications station can receive the Amateur Radio frequency, but transmit on the CAP frequency. And likewise, the Ham station can receive the CAP frequency, but transmit on the Ham frequency.

Would this still violate the regulation?

[davidsinn]

Just curious, but what about this:

For liaison communications between CAP and a Ham radio group, designate two frequencies: A CAP frequency and a Ham radio frequency. The CAP communications station can receive the Amateur Radio frequency, but transmit on the CAP frequency. And likewise, the Ham station can receive the CAP frequency, but transmit on the Ham frequency.

Would this still violate the regulation?

Yeah. Giving out our freqs to an unauthorized person.

[Eclipse]

Um, no - the sites where our frequencies are posted. Saying you can Google for them, and actually presenting sites with that information are two different things.

Try this.

Yeah, thanks - I know how to use Google, too.

My point, perhaps made a bit obscurely, is that any CAP member who comes across a web site posting our frequencies should be actively working to notify NHQ and have that content removed.

In cases where it can be shown that posting is illegal something is illegal Google is very good about removing those page from their searches.

Also, though I'm not being naive about this, a quick check of the first 10 results from the link above provides one page with WB numbers (that have been in use and public for years and before FOUO), and then a lot of discussion of the transition with no detail posted.  So if you, or anyone else, can find a site with the new freqs posted, please cite.

[Eclipse]

Just curious, but what about this:

For liaison communications between CAP and a Ham radio group, designate two frequencies: A CAP frequency and a Ham radio frequency. The CAP communications station can receive the Amateur Radio frequency, but transmit on the CAP frequency. And likewise, the Ham station can receive the CAP frequency, but transmit on the Ham frequency.

Would this still violate the regulation?

Yeah. Giving out our freqs to an unauthorized person.

Since that use could be argued as official business, you could have the Ham operators, etc., sign an NDA on the frequencies, however CAP traffic is prohibited from being on HAM radios, so any messages for a CAP members regarding CAP business would be verboten, regardless.

[JoeTomasone]

Um, no - the sites where our frequencies are posted. Saying you can Google for them, and actually presenting sites with that information are two different things.

Try this.

Yeah, thanks - I know how to use Google, too.

My point, perhaps made a bit obscurely, is that any CAP member who comes across a web site posting our frequencies should be actively working to notify NHQ and have that content removed.

In cases where it can be shown that posting is illegal something is illegal Google is very good about removing those page from their searches.

The first ten results do NOT have the new frequencies; and yes, I do.

[JoeTomasone]

Just curious, but what about this:

For liaison communications between CAP and a Ham radio group, designate two frequencies: A CAP frequency and a Ham radio frequency. The CAP communications station can receive the Amateur Radio frequency, but transmit on the CAP frequency. And likewise, the Ham station can receive the CAP frequency, but transmit on the Ham frequency.

Would this still violate the regulation?

Yeah. Giving out our freqs to an unauthorized person.

It would also be a violation of FCC Part 97 for a ham to communicate with a USG station except to provide emergency communications.

[RiverAux]

My point, perhaps made a bit obscurely, is that any CAP member who comes across a web site posting our frequencies should be actively working to notify NHQ and have that content removed.

Under whose authority?  What LAW is violated by someone posting CAP frequencies? 

[JoeTomasone]

Just curious, but what about this:

For liaison communications between CAP and a Ham radio group, designate two frequencies: A CAP frequency and a Ham radio frequency. The CAP communications station can receive the Amateur Radio frequency, but transmit on the CAP frequency. And likewise, the Ham station can receive the CAP frequency, but transmit on the Ham frequency.

Would this still violate the regulation?

Yeah. Giving out our freqs to an unauthorized person.

Since that use could be argued as official business, you could have the Ham operators, etc., sign an NDA on the frequencies, however CAP traffic is prohibited from being on HAM radios, so any messages for a CAP members regarding CAP business would be verboten, regardless.

Except that you have no authority to release the frequencies in the first place.   If you think you do, run that by your WG/DC so you can be told NO officially.  Also I refer to to the CAP/CC Memorandum dated 20 Jan 2006 on "Protection of Radio Frequency Information".

One further point of order: CAP traffic CAN be passed on ham frequencies -- but only by hams (and CAP member hams who are NOT signed in to the mission):

c. Where amateur radio "third party" traffic is needed to support a CAP mission, CAP communication managers may seek the support of local amateur radio clubs and organizations. CAP members who are licensed amateur radio operators and who are not acting in any CAP capacity (e.g. not signed into a mission) are not prohibited from exercising their amateur privileges and supporting affiliated amateur organizations using privately owned amateur equipment.

[JoeTomasone]

Under whose authority?  What LAW is violated by someone posting CAP frequencies?

20 January 2006
MEMORANDUM FOR REGION AND WING COMMANDERS
FROM: CAP/CC
SUBJECT: Protection of Radio Frequency Information

1. It has come to our attention that the radio frequency assignments provided us by the USAF are considered sensitive information and require protection from unauthorized release. IAW AFI 33-118 Radio Frequency (RF) Spectrum Management, "The continued protection of this information is essential to national security because it pertains to communications security and reveals vulnerabilities and capabilities". In addition, 18 USC 793 carries penalties for unauthorized disclosure of defense-related information.

<snip>

[RiverAux]

Though not a lawyer, I woudn't worry about that law being applied in a case like this.  It appears that you're good to go so long as you don't have some nefarious purpose.  Elsewise GoogleEarth would have been shut down and thousands jailed years ago for distributing aerial photos of military installations. 

[JoeTomasone]

Though not a lawyer, I woudn't worry about that law being applied in a case like this.  It appears that you're good to go so long as you don't have some nefarious purpose.  Elsewise GoogleEarth would have been shut down and thousands jailed years ago for distributing aerial photos of military installations.

So the message here is "it's OK to violate the law as long as you think you won't be punished"?