Comm - How to talk with event organizers at Airshows

[RADIOMAN015]

quote author=wuzafuzz link=topic=7924.msg144971#msg144971 date=1241874105]
+1

If radio gear needed to accomplish the activity safely cannot be rounded up, then you don't do the activity.  Basic ORM.

If you can't accomplish the activity by working within the rules, you don't do the activity.  Basic integrity.  We all agreed to follow CAP regulations when we joined.

As far as liaison activity, it's simply a non-starter for a CAP member to be talking on a ham radio to accomplish their CAP duties.  In order to avoid the appearance of breaking those rules, never use your ham privileges while "working" for CAP.  Blurring the lines creates an unwelcome perception and starts you down that slippery slope.

The proposed new regs appear to allow us to request support from amateur radio groups, but IIRC they will not enable CAP members to pick up a ham radio themselves.  As stated previously, we can solve any liaison needs by hanging out in the same place as a ham radio operator who isn't wearing a CAP uniform.

[/quote]

Again I really think it gets down to how many CAP members are participating in this event.  IF it's a large number than surely the unit could look at a Comm package to support this with the assistance from higher headquarters.  Again we don't know what the unit(s) participating have as far as radio equipment, both VHF portables & Intrasquad Radios, perhaps there's enough.   

The world won't end in this particular circumstance IF 1 or 2 CAP members that are also licensed ham radio operator's use their amateur radio to "liasion" with the primary radio system that the airshow officials has determined will be utilized.  No one is going to complain about this.  Now should all CAP member's use amateur radio at this function.  No I am not indorsing that.   Again there's a lot of variables in this planning.

You know in meeting our motto "citizens serving communities", we've got to develop some flexibility with planning our communications to support the mission at hand, especially in non fund AF activities.  Would the thought process be different IF that CAP unit was issued portable radios that operated on a business band or public safety frequency by show sponsor
RM     

[arajca]

There is a difference between using public safety, business, etc freqs and using ham freqs for liaison. Use of ham freqs is specifically prohibited, while use of the others is not. It is only restricted to work communicate with other agencies and not for our internal use. A CAP comm station using VTAC1 to communicate with the incident comm station is acceptable.

[♠SARKID♠]

The world won't end in this particular circumstance IF 1 or 2 CAP members that are also licensed ham radio operator's use their amateur radio to "liasion" with the primary radio system that the airshow officials has determined will be utilized.  No one is going to complain about this.

I think you might be close to alone in that assumption.  I'd roll some heads if I found out that was going on.

[maverik]

I agree but heads would roll administratively (well I'd start with the SQ CC and move up the chain.)

[arajca]

I agree but heads would roll administratively (well I'd start with the SQ CC and move up the chain.)

I'd start with the members in question.

[RADIOMAN015]

Ok - so let me preface by saying I am new to CAP - I am also a amateur radio operator.

So here is my question - if participating at an airshow and a local amateur radio group (as usual) is acting as "net control" and directing radio traffic for the entire event and I cannot use my amateur privileges to communicate between them and CAP - How can I then communicate with the net control?  (They need to pass traffic about where assistance by CAP is needed) Has anyone found a good solution?  FRS? Air Frequencies?

When you have completed this "citizens serving communities" mission, please let us know how you maintained communications with CAP members from the "command post".
RM 

[noturusernamebutmine]

Thank you all for your posts - yes I will be sure to let you know how it turns out. 

FYI - (in reference to some earlier posts) the question was not about how many radios I had available to use among CAP members it was regarding how to communicate between two groups: The HAMs and CAP at an airshow. 

Thanks again all!

[noturusernamebutmine]

So time to follow up - I know it has been awhile.  Well sadly at the event I was worried about - there actually where not a group of organized hams running comms at the airshow.  Instead the airshow ops had a number of different radios for different purposes (ended up being a challenge).  That day I think I ended up with about 5 radios strapped to me - all for different purposes.  Wasn't exactly what I had in mind - but I was actually able to coordinate with everyone I needed to in a efficient manner. 

In regards to the HAM issue - I have decided to purchase my own FRS radios that I can use to give to the HAMs at the event.  I will still carry my HAM radio and monitor their frequency - but any two way communication will be done with the FRS radio.  Though I think there is something new in the regs regarding this.....I know someone will reply quoting the new regs in regards to HAMs and CAP. 

Thanks all for your help!

[JoeTomasone]

The regs regarding FRS have not changed; they cannot be used for any ES activity (training or actual) unless a victim is believed to possess one.    They can be used for NON-ES activities, but the same rules apply as for all other radios -- callsigns, need BCUT, etc.     

As far as using them for liaison purposes, I don't think it is permissible under the old OR new regs; follow the logic here.


CAPR 100-1, section 11 deals with "other agencies" but spends most of its time discussing SHARES.   Then there is this section:

11-6. Liaison Radios. Liaison Radios are legal to be used in other radio services outside of CAP and are maintained in inventory for that purpose. A small number of these radios, as determined by operational requirements, may be used for communication with other departments and agencies. Such operations shall be used only on authorized frequencies to conduct official CAP business during Joint Operations, in accordance with a CAP and CAP-USAF approved Memorandum of Understanding.    (emphasis mine)

The MOA between CAP/CAP-USAF and the American Radio Relay League (which, of course, does not speak for amateur radio as a whole, but for its members alone) does not provide for what hams would call "public service operations" -- communications for airshows, marathons, etc -- but only for emergencies and training for emergencies.

(http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/mou/CAP.pdf)

...So it seems that the only permissible on-the-air liaison with hams would have to be with members of the ARRL specifically (through their Amateur Radio Emergency Service -- ARES) and only for actual or simulated disasters.

Most liaison activities between CAP and hams that I have observed have been in co-located facilities -- i.e. one ham and one CAP member with their respective radios in the same room passing traffic in person from one net to the other.

[RADIOMAN015]

The regs regarding FRS have not changed; they cannot be used for any ES activity (training or actual) unless a victim is believed to possess one.    They can be used for NON-ES activities, but the same rules apply as for all other radios -- callsigns, need BCUT, etc.     

As far as using them for liaison purposes, I don't think it is permissible under the old OR new regs; follow the logic here.

Most liaison activities between CAP and hams that I have observed have been in co-located facilities -- i.e. one ham and one CAP member with their respective radios in the same room passing traffic in person from one net to the other.

I think we get too carried away with our comm regulations alleged restrictions as opposed to ensuring we are providing appropriate quality communications support for operations.

IF another agency has large numbers of portable radios available (whatever radio system, public safety, business, MURS, etc.) that are offered to CAP, I don't see why we couldn't use those radios in a specific non AF type mission support activity.   Most CAP units after the rebanding had far fewer portable radios corporate as well as individual member (e.g. lost use of all Vertex 150's) to support operations.   Generally the Table of Allowance only allows for 2 VHF portables for each ground team.   Squadron's might also have 4 ISR low power portables.  Surely we can't support a very large mission (e.g. air show health & safety patrols) without having to spend way too much time & money (for travel) getting other units to lend radios for the support.
RM     

[argentip]

I think we get too carried away with our comm regulations alleged restrictions as opposed to ensuring we are providing appropriate quality communications support for operations.

If by "getting too carried away" you mean actually following the regulations, then Yes, I guess we are guilty.  The Amateur vs CAP topic has been debated so many times and the same conclusion is always reached.  The conclusion is "That's what the regulation says and we must follow it."  If you don't want to follow it, you don't have to participate in the activity.  If you think that it needs to change, write up a proposal and send it up your chain of command and let your Wing Comander take it to the National Board.  That's the way members can request changes to regulations in this organization.  We can't just go around disregarding regulations because we don't agree with them, though.

[Eclipse]

IF another agency has large numbers of portable radios available (whatever radio system, public safety, business, MURS, etc.) that are offered to CAP, I don't see why we couldn't use those radios in a specific non AF type mission support activity.

Because the regs say we can't.

Most CAP units after the rebanding had far fewer portable radios corporate as well as individual member (e.g. lost use of all Vertex 150's) to support operations.   Generally the Table of Allowance only allows for 2 VHF portables for each ground team.   Squadron's might also have 4 ISR low power portables.  Surely we can't support a very large mission (e.g. air show health & safety patrols) without having to spend way too much time & money (for travel) getting other units to lend radios for the support.

Our TOA's don't account for airshows and "safety patrols" (whatever that means) because that is not an AFAM.  AFAM's involve coherent ground or UDF teams that are required to stay together, which means 1-2 VHF radios and ISR's for the rest of the team meets the requirement.

Interestingly, with all the posts here, no one has suggested simply calling the other agency on the phone, or texting them, or emailing them, etc.. Cheap, plentiful, secure, and fully within regs.

[arajca]

IF another agency has large numbers of portable radios available (whatever radio system, public safety, business, MURS, etc.) that are offered to CAP, I don't see why we couldn't use those radios in a specific non AF type mission support activity.   Most CAP units after the rebanding had far fewer portable radios corporate as well as individual member (e.g. lost use of all Vertex 150's) to support operations.   Generally the Table of Allowance only allows for 2 VHF portables for each ground team.   Squadron's might also have 4 ISR low power portables.  Surely we can't support a very large mission (e.g. air show health & safety patrols) without having to spend way too much time & money (for travel) getting other units to lend radios for the support.
RM   

Some radical left wing group affectionately referred to as the Federal Communications Commission sets the rules for non-government radio systems. You mention MURS, business, public safety, etc. Each of these has their own rules and requirements. Now, if a agency want to loan CAP members radios at an airshow to conduct airshow business and operations, the CUL or project officer needs to review what the restrictions are.  It may be entirely legal in one case, while another may not be. This involves a crazy idea called planning. True, it is more work than merely grabbing whatever radios are handy, but it is something that needs to be done. Also consider that on large scale incidents, developing a communications plan is required. This can help CULs practice that skill.

[JoeTomasone]

IF another agency has large numbers of portable radios available (whatever radio system, public safety, business, MURS, etc.) that are offered to CAP, I don't see why we couldn't use those radios in a specific non AF type mission support activity.

Now, if a agency want to loan CAP members radios at an airshow to conduct airshow business and operations, the CUL or project officer needs to review what the restrictions are.

Prohibited by 100-1.  You can't just take radios from an agency and use them for internal CAP comms:

11-5. CAP Participation in Government Agencies' Communications Programs. CAP stations operating on non-CAP frequencies must have written authorization from the licensed agency. A copy of the FCC license or the federal authorization must also be obtained. The letter (copy or original) and radio information are combined with a SFAF and sent to the NTC. (The original letter may be kept on file at the wing level.) CAP use of government agencies' frequencies is limited to liaison communications for coordination between the two organizations.  Non-CAP assigned frequencies will not be used to satisfy internal CAP-to-CAP communications requirements.

[argentip]

IF another agency has large numbers of portable radios available (whatever radio system, public safety, business, MURS, etc.) that are offered to CAP, I don't see why we couldn't use those radios in a specific non AF type mission support activity.

Now, if a agency want to loan CAP members radios at an airshow to conduct airshow business and operations, the CUL or project officer needs to review what the restrictions are.

Prohibited by 100-1.  You can't just take radios from an agency and use them for internal CAP comms:

11-5. CAP Participation in Government Agencies' Communications Programs. CAP stations operating on non-CAP frequencies must have written authorization from the licensed agency. A copy of the FCC license or the federal authorization must also be obtained. The letter (copy or original) and radio information are combined with a SFAF and sent to the NTC. (The original letter may be kept on file at the wing level.) CAP use of government agencies' frequencies is limited to liaison communications for coordination between the two organizations.  Non-CAP assigned frequencies will not be used to satisfy internal CAP-to-CAP communications requirements.

But there is a possibility that CAP could use a non-CAP frequency for liason purposes and run internal communications on CAP frequencies.  MIWG did this for the air show at Selfridge ANGB this year.  The 127th FW had an 800MHz special event channel set up and gave us a radio to use if they needed us. 

[JoeTomasone]

But there is a possibility that CAP could use a non-CAP frequency for liason purposes and run internal communications on CAP frequencies.  MIWG did this for the air show at Selfridge ANGB this year.  The 127th FW had an 800MHz special event channel set up and gave us a radio to use if they needed us.

That wasn't what was being proposed.    What Radioman was saying was that they could get some agency to lend them a bunch of portables for use at an airshow or other event.     My understanding is that USAF & CAP have inherent authorization to use each other's radios for liaison purposes; handled at the CAP-USAF level.

[RADIOMAN015]

IF another agency has large numbers of portable radios available (whatever radio system, public safety, business, MURS, etc.) that are offered to CAP, I don't see why we couldn't use those radios in a specific non AF type mission support activity.

Because the regs say we can't.

Most CAP units after the rebanding had far fewer portable radios corporate as well as individual member (e.g. lost use of all Vertex 150's) to support operations.   Generally the Table of Allowance only allows for 2 VHF portables for each ground team.   Squadron's might also have 4 ISR low power portables.  Surely we can't support a very large mission (e.g. air show health & safety patrols) without having to spend way too much time & money (for travel) getting other units to lend radios for the support.

Our TOA's don't account for airshows and "safety patrols" (whatever that means) because that is not an AFAM.  AFAM's involve coherent ground or UDF teams that are required to stay together, which means 1-2 VHF radios and ISR's for the rest of the team meets the requirement.

Interestingly, with all the posts here, no one has suggested simply calling the other agency on the phone, or texting them, or emailing them, etc.. Cheap, plentiful, secure, and fully within regs.

I think the reg CAPR 100-1, para 11-5, specifically relates to programming non CAP radio system frequencies & using them in CAP owned radio equipment assets as an alternative to the CAP radio system that is already available in the radio and should be used.

The CAP regulation does not address (one way or the other) non AF Mission activity participation when the host customer specifies or lends the radio equipment necessary to support that non AF mission to CAP.  (which is permissible).   

I want to be very specific about use of other radio systems.  It's in local activities like in parking cars, giving directions, patrolling & reporting safety/security/health issues, etc by a  fairly large group of CAP members that can't be supported by available CAP radio assets.

As far as cellphones go, the equipment works fine in a non stressed comm environment, but if something happens (e.g. vehicle or aircraft crashes near or on event spectators), it's likely the cellphone system will be overwhelmed with calls & not accessible in the immediate area of the event.  Also from a tactical communications for operational support, a poor way to conduct comms because not all participants can hear the voice brodcasts at the same time.  That's why law enforcement no longer uses cellphones during tactical raids but uses low power portables to talk with all team members.

It really gets down to IF you can get enough CAP radios to support a non AF type mission your unit/group is participating in, than by all means use the CAP radios.  IF you can't than look at the alternatives that are available to you.  There's going to be risk & benefits with ANY radio/wireless system(s) you choose to use.
RM   

[JoeTomasone]

I think the reg CAPR 100-1, para 11-5, specifically relates to programming non CAP radio system frequencies & using them in CAP owned radio equipment assets as an alternative to the CAP radio system that is already available in the radio and should be used.

To say that is to assume that the word "station" (as used in "CAP stations operating on non-CAP frequencies") always refers to a piece of equipment and never to a person, which is a false assumption that is clearly evident with even a causal glance at 100-1.   You are free to interpret as you wish, of course, but my read of that line conveys the impression of a person, NOT a piece of equipment.   This opens up the possibility that the equipment in question is NOT a CAP asset (nor a personally-owned asset).

The CAP regulation does not address (one way or the other) non AF Mission activity participation when the host customer specifies or lends the radio equipment necessary to support that non AF mission to CAP.  (which is permissible).   

I'm not sure how you are interpreting this line, then:  "Non-CAP assigned frequencies will not be used to satisfy internal CAP-to-CAP communications."

I want to be very specific about use of other radio systems.  It's in local activities like in parking cars, giving directions, patrolling & reporting safety/security/health issues, etc by a  fairly large group of CAP members that can't be supported by available CAP radio assets.

...Which sounds exactly like "internal CAP-to-CAP communications" to me.

It really gets down to IF you can get enough CAP radios to support a non AF type mission your unit/group is participating in, than by all means use the CAP radios.  IF you can't than look at the alternatives that are available to you.  There's going to be risk & benefits with ANY radio/wireless system(s) you choose to use.
RM   

That's the point -- the regulations offer NO alternatives -- except FRS radios for non-ES activities.   

I've been the Comms Officer for large events and one Encampment where arrangements were made to secure enough comm gear long before the event.    I've had cases where we had three nets -- one on VHF, one on ISR, and one on FRS.   

If you decide you want to grab a bunch of portables from some agency and use them for CAP Comms, hey, that's on you.   However, I do not see how you will justify yourself if and when you are called on the carpet with a copy of 100-1 in front of you.

[RADIOMAN015]

That's the point -- the regulations offer NO alternatives -- except FRS radios for non-ES activities.   

If you decide you want to grab a bunch of portables from some agency and use them for CAP Comms, hey, that's on you.   However, I do not see how you will justify yourself if and when you are called on the carpet with a copy of 100-1 in front of you.

I don't see this as a very big issue in SPECIFICALLY supporting NON ES type activities (which again CAP doesn't support radio comm wise anyways by Table of Allowance authorizations & funding), especially community events, that CAP is helping with & there is an offer by the "customer" to provide the radio communications equipment.   

One has to balance off the unreimbursed total cost of obtaining & controlling all those CAP portable radio assets with readily available local alternatives.  (surely using those $1.7K portables in the P25 digital CAI mode  to park cars is a goal we should all strive for, isn't it  )
RM

[RedFox24]

CAP comms plan is that we dont play with others.  Peroid.  We dont have served agencies, other than the USAF.  We have no need and never will have a need to liaison with another agency because we don't work with other agencies. 

We have our secret squirrel frequencies that we cant share but if you need to know Google them.  CAP cant talk to anyone other than CAP, We should never attempt to talk anyone other than CAP and we have no need to talk to anyone other than CAP and if we do we don't need radios, there are cell phones, text messages and smoke signals, they never fail to work.  We don't even need radios to talk to each other, we have cell, land line, text, email and ESP. (or is that ESPN?)

Besides, CAP shouldn't be doing anything related to air shows either.  When I was Squadron and Group Commander I forbid participation in air shows other than a recruiting booth or such.  No parking cars or airplanes or what ever.  That is not our mission either. Other than recruiting air shows serve no purpose for CAP.   And I think personally that air shows have no purpose period. 

I am sure that our leaders at NHQ are working right now to get our interagency radios ready for a time in which someone more important than us on this board determines that we will ever need to talk to anyone other than CAP.  I am sure they have the soup cans they are just trying to find a ball of twine long enough.  But that, brand of soup can and length of twine, is most likely FOUO also......

There is an extreme need for a sarscam font for parts of this post.