Cadet's Right to Participate in ES vs. Cadet Maturity

[commando1]

If I was genuinely concerned that Cadet Goofoff would not handle well under intense ES pressure then I would worry more about the integrity of the team as a whole than that cadets feelings. I would rather get kicked out of CAP for hazing than allow a immature 13 yr old cadet who felt entitled to see something he ought not...

[Private Investigator]

I've had cases where as a GTL I restricted individual cadets because of the specific type of mission.  Not to say they are incapable or might be problematic, but for the sake of their own mental well being. 

If in my initial alert I am told that we are being sent to do CSS of a very greusome crash site where there is a 100% chance we will be in reasonable proximity to body parts, I am not going to take a 13 year old cadet GTM with me.  There is no telling how somebody will react if they come across a corpse or a body part.  I've seen younger cadets who handle it fine while an older cadet who was an EMT completely lost it.  I just would rather take the chance on somebody who is older and has more comprehension of what they may be walking into.

That is a good example. If we had a call out for a gruesome crash I would ask for volunteers and they would be Senior Members only. No reason to bring a Cadet.

[Private Investigator]

The IC, OSC, GBD, GTL all have a duty to insure that all personnel joining a mission/team are trained, equiped, capable and ready to perform the assigned mission.

Do not forget the MSO. They might have a better insight.

[Woodsy]

If cadet goofoff is running all over the place during a SAREX or ELT, declare a safety stand down because he's being unsafe running around the flight line, roads, etc. and send him home.  simple as that.

As far as a REDCAP looking for a downed or overdue aircraft, well, we won't have a cadet on that team, period. 

[Ned]

That is a good example. If we had a call out for a gruesome crash I would ask for volunteers and they would be Senior Members only. No reason to bring a Cadet.

Because an 18 year-old senior is inherently more mature than a 20 year-old cadet?

Right.

"Never make abdsolute rules." 

[lordmonar]

The IC, OSC, GBD, GTL all have a duty to insure that all personnel joining a mission/team are trained, equiped, capable and ready to perform the assigned mission.

Do not forget the MSO. They might have a better insight.

Not in my experince. 

[lordmonar]

If cadet goofoff is running all over the place during a SAREX or ELT, declare a safety stand down because he's being unsafe running around the flight line, roads, etc. and send him home.  simple as that.

As far as a REDCAP looking for a downed or overdue aircraft, well, we won't have a cadet on that team, period.

Why not?

Lots of mature 16-20 year old cadets who can handel a real SAR.

The whole point of this thread is that we should judge the individual based on the situaiton and their abilities/maturity/training/gear and not on their status as cadets or not cadets.

[Woodsy]

If cadet goofoff is running all over the place during a SAREX or ELT, declare a safety stand down because he's being unsafe running around the flight line, roads, etc. and send him home.  simple as that.

As far as a REDCAP looking for a downed or overdue aircraft, well, we won't have a cadet on that team, period.

Why not?

Lots of mature 16-20 year old cadets who can handel a real SAR.

The whole point of this thread is that we should judge the individual based on the situaiton and their abilities/maturity/training/gear and not on their status as cadets or not cadets.

I didn't think about 18+ cadets.  My squadron doesn't have any, so that didn't cross my mind.

To rephrase that, we would not be sending anyone under the age of 18 on that mission.   Call it a legal issue, dealing with parents, protecting the kid, or whatever else you want, but I firmly believe having a minor roll up on a scene with bloody, mutilated bodies is a bad idea.  It's hard enough for adults. 

[Spaceman3750]

No one has a "right" to particpate in anything in CAP.

I concur. However, as you likely are aware, the general mantra of American society is that we have "rights" to many, many things that we don't actually have a "right" to. Therefore, while I don't perceive it as a right, I know that others do and therefore it is sometimes worth it to work within that context, especially when talking about what may or may not come down on your head.

Thanks for the responses guys. And ol'fido, that's what I'm working on.

[lordmonar]

I think that if you put them in the proper context right up front it saves a lot of heart burn down the road.

Personally.....I agree that some young people should not be on some missions.

Having said that.....it is no likley that they are going to see a major bloody scene at an aircraft accident.
And if when you come up on scene...it is a simple thing to assign the younger members perimiter search or setting up the Lz or a ton of other necessary tasks that does not include them actually having to view or handle bodies.

I think that we coddle our young people too much.

There should be conversation between the squadron commander and the parents of any minors who volunteer to work ES.  They need to know up front this is no joke.

Once that has happened and the parents understand all the ramifications of what might happen on a SAR.....then we should not be second guessing them and trying to "protect" them from the realities of SAR.

Remember that we also have a CISM program to handle the aftermath of any trama CAP members may suffer on a SAR.

So unless the agency restricts it to only people over 18....then the ES leaders should use their best judgement on an individual basis and NOT throw out blanket policies.

YMMV.

[RiverAux]

Gee, if you don't send cadets on actual missing aircraft missions, why bother training them in SAR at all?  Any SAR has the potential to have a very unhappy ending and it can't be predicted in advance.  If your unit is really that worried about it, just get them GES and restrict your unit activities to handing out water after torandos or something like that and don't waste their or your time training them for something that you're not actually going to use them for. 

[Woodsy]

Training them isn't really an issue...  We're luck if 3 cadets show up for a SAREX!  We've tried and tried and tried but they are more interested in doing non-es activities.  The Senior side of the house is very active in ES. 

[commando1]

Gee, if you don't send cadets on actual missing aircraft missions, why bother training them in SAR at all?  Any SAR has the potential to have a very unhappy ending and it can't be predicted in advance.  If your unit is really that worried about it, just get them GES and restrict your unit activities to handing out water after torandos or something like that and don't waste their or your time training them for something that you're not actually going to use them for.

+1 :clap:

[lordmonar]

Gee, if you don't send cadets on actual missing aircraft missions, why bother training them in SAR at all?  Any SAR has the potential to have a very unhappy ending and it can't be predicted in advance.  If your unit is really that worried about it, just get them GES and restrict your unit activities to handing out water after torandos or something like that and don't waste their or your time training them for something that you're not actually going to use them for.

Even SAR training can have an un happy ending.
A few years ago....a GSAR team I trained and was GBDing for was out looking for and ELT in the desert....and they happen across a pair of hikers in an emergency.  One of them fell and broke his leg.  My team took charge and kicked up.  This was duirng a graded SAREX...There was five CAP Members on the team.   One SM (GLM3/GTL Trainee) One 18 year old cadet (GLT) and three cadets all under the age of 16.

If we are not going to let them participate....let's not waste our time training them.

[lordmonar]

Training them isn't really an issue...  We're luck if 3 cadets show up for a SAREX!  We've tried and tried and tried but they are more interested in doing non-es activities.  The Senior side of the house is very active in ES.

I find that hard to believe.  I mean why should they show up for a SAREX?  Why train if they are never ever going to go on a real SAR?
Cadets aren't stupid.  It does not take them long to learn where to invest their energies.

[Extremepredjudice]

Training them isn't really an issue...  We're luck if 3 cadets show up for a SAREX!  We've tried and tried and tried but they are more interested in doing non-es activities.  The Senior side of the house is very active in ES.

I find that hard to believe.  I mean why should they show up for a SAREX?  Why train if they are never ever going to go on a real SAR?
Cadets aren't stupid.  It does not take them long to learn where to invest their energies.

I want quals, but I'd be the only one in my squadron, so obviously I won't be going on any SARs.

I guess I'm stupid...

[EMT-83]

I want quals, but I'd be the only one in my squadron, so obviously I won't be going on any SARs.

Ground teams and air crews are not squadron resourses; you can, and will, be assigned where the IC needs you. It doesn't matter if you're the only person from your squadron.

[lordmonar]

Training them isn't really an issue...  We're luck if 3 cadets show up for a SAREX!  We've tried and tried and tried but they are more interested in doing non-es activities.  The Senior side of the house is very active in ES.

I find that hard to believe.  I mean why should they show up for a SAREX?  Why train if they are never ever going to go on a real SAR?
Cadets aren't stupid.  It does not take them long to learn where to invest their energies.

I want quals, but I'd be the only one in my squadron, so obviously I won't be going on any SARs.

I guess I'm stupid...

I'm a MO.....my squadron does not have planes......
And in your wing/group/area they may not have this same 'anti-policy" as in other areas.

Here in NVWG the big problem is that the SAREX's are sooooo aircrew centric.  If GTs are included at at all it is mostly as "go out and turn on the ELT and be a target".  We have been working hard to fix this attitude and we are making progress...but it is still there.  And there is an attitude that GT=Cadets and CP guys. 

[Eclipse]

I want quals, but I'd be the only one in my squadron, so obviously I won't be going on any SARs.

Ground teams and air crews are not squadron resourses; you can, and will, be assigned where the IC needs you. It doesn't matter if you're the only person from your squadron.

Most wings do cattle calls for resources, coherent teams are preferred, but as long as your commander approves, the biggest issue is staying informed
and showing up to training.

[ol'fido]

Which means we need to take steps to get standing teams up and running and call them specifically when there is a mission. It is a lot harder to turn down a direct call than it is to ignore a cattle call text or e mail. Also, there is the pride of being the "go to" team that will will keep these teams sharp.