Interoperability in large missions

[CommGeek]

How do we ( CAP) handle a large mission when we are required to interface with other communications systems and agencies?   We advertise that we have airborne repeaters available....What is the point of advertising if we can not release the freqs to the 'Customer'?  I am very familiar with the process of getting permission to release the freqs, this process takes several days / weeks.   How do we handle this in an emergency / deployment situation?

Also, If we can not talk to the other agencies involved in an incident what good are we? 

What good are we at an event if we can not re-program our radios on the fly to add a interop freq?

Does national need to look at maybe revising the regs?

[RiverAux]

Depends on the incident.  On large scale DR missions we are usually more or less operating on our own taking photographs, so usually isn't much need for comm with others.  On smaller missions like SAR its a matter of different frequences not that we can't tell others what our freqs are -- they wouldn't have the equipment to operate on them anyway. 

[arajca]

There are specific frequencies designated for Interoperability purposes. These are NOT CAP channels, but are detailed in federal interoperability plans. They are programmed into CAP radios as IR1, IR2, etc. That is also the federal tag for the channels.

Chances are each state has specific channels that are used for SAR and interoperability purposes. Your wing dc should have information about these and you may find they are already programmed into the CAP radios in your wing in the wing specific zones.

[cap235629]

There are specific frequencies designated for Interoperability purposes. These are NOT CAP channels, but are detailed in federal interoperability plans. They are programmed into CAP radios as IR1, IR2, etc.

HUH? I have 3 CAP radios assigned to me all on the new channel plan and none of them have these IR channels.....

[arajca]

They should be in Zone 7 - Liaison

[CommGeek]

I am very familiar with the fed and non-fed interop channels. ... IR and Tac channels..   IR is ONLY used to coordinate with federal agancies with prior approval!

In a large event we WILL be required to communicate with others!  The question is why do we advertise airborne repeaters if we wont allow others to use them?

Depends on the incident.  On large scale DR missions we are usually more or less operating on our own taking photographs, so usually isn't much need for comm with others.  On smaller missions like SAR its a matter of different frequences not that we can't tell others what our freqs are -- they wouldn't have the equipment to operate on them anyway. 

I dissagree... On a large event we will be required to coordinate wit others.

[RiverAux]

You may disagree, but it is the norm. 

Keep in mind CAP's usual primary job during most disaster relief missions -- taking damage assessment photographs.  That doesn't require much air-ground coordination with other agencies, if any.  We pretty much operate on our own.

I'm not saying that we shoudn't have such capability, but just pointing out that we normally don't and still get our mission done.   

[arajca]

Also, based on my experience, few agencies have the ability for line level folks to reprogram radios on the fly. When reprogramming is needed, they call in specialists who handle that. Also, when you're talking about a large incident, say Type 2 or higher, they will have a large comm staff, for which reprogramming is a minor issue.

If you need specific frequencies for state or local incidents, contact YOUR wing DC. They will make the determination and identify what is needed to add those frequencies.

[CommGeek]

Also, based on my experience, few agencies have the ability for line level folks to reprogram radios on the fly. When reprogramming is needed, they call in specialists who handle that. Also, when you're talking about a large incident, say Type 2 or higher, they will have a large comm staff, for which reprogramming is a minor issue.

If you need specific frequencies for state or local incidents, contact YOUR wing DC. They will make the determination and identify what is needed to add those frequencies.

I disagree... I happen to be a real world comm-tech. Most agencies in the State have a comm-tech on thier MCV/MCP  and re-programming is a normal issue on an incident.  You never know who you will be working with or the situation.

Most CAP guys are not real word comm types.  CAP has only been trained to talk to themselves.  Times have changed...if we cant talk to other agncies we will be left in the dark.   

[cap235629]

They should be in Zone 7 - Liaison

The only channels in the CAP comm plan in zone 7 are the Coast Guard Channels.  There are provisions for adding more but the only "official" ones approved are the CG channels.  If you have others it may be a wing/region thing but it is not nationwide.

[arajca]

Interesting. They were in the code plug I got from National, although there was no explaination about them at the time.

[RADIOMAN015]

Also, If we can not talk to the other agencies involved in an incident what good are we? 

CAP radios are only capable of operating in the VHF highband 138-174 mhz.  Most base/mobile antennas currently installed are generally very narrow in frequency range, and likely would cause some technical issues that would affect the communications range effectiveness of the radios.  Additionally many public safety organizations seem to be migrating to UHF, 700 & 800 mhz frequencies.

It is probably a better idea for CAP to borrow our "customers'" radios (even just portables) for typical "on scene" air to ground comms" and utilize our radio equipment for comm back to our mission base or IC that may be at the joint operations EOC.  (It also is a good idea to check out your comm range from the various EOC you are going to operate out of, BEFORE an actual mission, so that you know the comm range limitations both ground & air wise).

I think you will find also that's there's very limited programming software and cables available in order to reprogram radios, so it is unlikely this could be done quickly anyways.

RM
   

[CommGeek]

There are plenty of VHF interop freq available that most public safety agencies monitor...At least in FL. 

EOC's are NOT a Command and Control function.  Why would I need to talk to an EOC?  EOC's Support the on Scene personel!  I would talk to the on scenen command before an EOC.

Again... Most CAP guys are not exposed to this type of event... We need to educate our members in public safety Comms...

[EMT-83]

CTWG aircraft and vehicles have VHF statewide inter-op frequencies programmed. You can talk to all state police troops, regional dispatch centers, and most (but not all) local agencies.

I was surprised to find a couple of channels that I could use to talk to my own fire department. Something tells me our wing comm guys sat in the same room with some EM-types when they put the statewide plan together a few years ago.

[wuzafuzz]

If it's a large mission we'd probably roll out our own CUL's and MRO's, along with our own IC or Liaison Officer.  Most likely CAP would be delegated their own tasks to do and we would primarily communicate with other CAP members.  Interfacing with other agencies would likely be done at the LO or IC level.

The idea of everyone being able to talk to everyone else all the time might sound cool, but I think it's actually a recipe for problems at a large incident.  As a CUL I don't want to encourage people to roam all their channels, unless they are savvy enough to constantly monitor the primary channels assigned for that incident or team.

Smaller incidents?  Sure, it's nice to be able to talk from a CAP aircraft to a sheriff's SAR team on the ground.  Make advance arrangements with likely customers so you don't have to figure it out on a moments notice.  Lots of SAR teams use VHF NASAR channels (even when other local agencies have gone to other bands).  We have them too.  For those that went to other bands, we can get creative with planning.

Personally I think the concept of total interoperability is a pipe dream.  Sure, tons of money is being thrown in that direction, but too many agencies insist on doing their own thing and then whine to Big Brother to fix the situation they created.  There are some slick workarounds out there, but those are too expensive and complex for CAP to consider on its own.  It will always fall to the comm folks to pull rabbits out of their hats on the fly. 

[Smithsonia]

Whatever happened to the 4G cellphones with Emergency Service Codes? Supposedly, using a double secret civilian cell phone with special codes... ES organizations could take over cell phone tower traffic and give you Jack Bauer capabilities. This was an out growth of the lessons learned from 9-11. It was promised but I've heard nothing more in the last 2 or 3 years.

This system was supposed to be almost akin to having your own personal satellite-phones. I'd like that a lot.

[Mustang]

Also, based on my experience, few agencies have the ability for line level folks to reprogram radios on the fly. When reprogramming is needed, they call in specialists who handle that. Also, when you're talking about a large incident, say Type 2 or higher, they will have a large comm staff, for which reprogramming is a minor issue.

If you need specific frequencies for state or local incidents, contact YOUR wing DC. They will make the determination and identify what is needed to add those frequencies.

I disagree... I happen to be a real world comm-tech. Most agencies in the State have a comm-tech on thier MCV/MCP  and re-programming is a normal issue on an incident.  You never know who you will be working with or the situation.

This is precisely why I keep a copy of the reprogramming instructions for the NAT and Technisonic radios in my in-flight guide.  I've had to program access tones, alternate repeater pairs, etc on more than one occasion.

[ammotrucker]

I disagree with a lot of what is being said here.  It is obvious that most of the CAP Wings must not have agreements to work with the State EOC's ,being at a recent comm event here  some have stated that individuals would not need interoperable radio and only LO or IC would interface.  That is a croc of S?&t seeing as ALL and I repeat ALL ground personnel had to have a safety radio, WHICH IS NOT IN ARE (CAP) PROGRAMMING. 

From what I have seen from this event and others that I have participated in we will more likely be asked to step aside, because of the fact that we CAN NOT interact with othere agencies.  This is a sad state of affairs, seeing as how we bill as one of the best communications networks around.

I see CAP as lacking.  We need interoperable radio, we need the options for reprograming to other agency freq's, we need to be allowed to hand out our freq's to agencies that we are servicing.  This is my opinion

[RiverAux]

Every CAP Wing has an agreement with the state for running missions. 

CAP is a nationwide organization and it isn't possible for us to equip ourselves to be able to communicate with probably tens of thousands of local, county, and state fire, police, and emergency management agencies.  We've spent tens of millions of dollars in recent years just getting our own radio system to meet the new requirement.  Do you think we have a spare billion or so to make us capable of talking with everybody?

[arajca]

If you know of a particular need for VHF radio frequencies for interop, LET YOUR WING DC KNOW! If you know of a need for non-VHF frequencies, find the money for radios. CAP will not fund UHF, 700/800/900 MHZ, etc radios. We just do not have the money.

There are a few dozen channels that are reserved for wing specific programming. With the removal of the wide band channels, I think even more will be available. IT IS UP TO YOUR WING DC TO DETERMINE WHAT IS PROGRAMMED INTO THESE CHANNELS. Unless needs are made known, how the heck is the DC supposed to know what members need?!

CAPR 100-1 lists the documentation required for non-CAP channels (excluding amateur which is verbotten) to be LEGALLY programmed into CAP radios.